Book 2 – Text Updates 052

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Saladman » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:29 pm

Klivian wrote:I suspect that the reason Sylvia is still kicking is that she attuned to the 'pliers. When she talked to Ossomer about the feeling she got when she picked them up, he lied about feeling the same thing. I get the feeling that her attunement will come back later on.

I'm having trouble figuring out where that is going though, since I kinda see Wanda as the final boss, once Charlie is out of the way.


Sylvia = attuned is a(nother) theory I didn't see at first but is starting to grow on me. And if she is attuned, she could well be fated to wield the pliers in truth, and protected until she does. Stanley did run across the unlikely number of dwagons on the way to assault FAQ the first time, so apparently Fate can bend chance.

I can't see where it goes either, though. Wanda falling would be a big deal. Presumably Sylvia would take up the pliers and... I don't know. She's a Toolist herself, so she should stay aligned with Stanley, but she'd likely have the same theoretical discretion Wanda does now about that. I wonder what special a Warlord attuned to 'pliers would get. Probably not actual Decryption of fallen units, but maybe popping them? Or something else entirely, with Wanda's Decrypted becoming fixed in number?

....

Those last lines are intriguing, in a way I didn't catch at first.

"We've got some stray flame," he said, indicating a spot where the fallen reds' breath had ignited part of the Garrison ornamentation.

Sylvia looked at the fire wistfully.

"Barely a candle," she said. "Take some pinks. Go blow it out."


This could, with a large stretch, be taken to mean she's no longer as hot on burning the Tower/things in general/the whole world down as she was. Which would make a second Decrypted after Ossomer starting to question her orders and purpose. More likely though it just means she's sobered up after the adrenaline rush and this extraneous fire doesn't do her orders any good.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby teratorn » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:32 pm

tennisplaya wrote:One of the things I was really struck by in this update was how weak dwagons seemed to be.


I feel the opposite, on the ground they killed knights stacked with a level 8 warlord (Jillian killed a dwagon fighting solo). I expected much better from knights, those guys were all supposed to be high level, and with another high level stacked as a bonus. It means JS is done, stacks of regular units won't stand a change against dwagons.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:41 pm

ftl wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:The Dwagons fighting here are all decrypted, because otherwise they'd be up in the air. It was harvesting that forced them to land off-turn.

Book 2 – Text Updates 052 wrote:Restricted to the ground by lack of move, the dwagons gallumphed forward like walruses.

I'm reading this as they hover if they end turn in the airspace (or over water), but are forced to land if they have 0 move otherwise. Heavy-mounted dwagons would be forced to land as well, and with 0 move, could not become airborne again once their rider dismounted.


I would disagree. They are restricted to the ground by their 0 move because they can't switch from courtyard to airspace. Moving from courtyard to airspace OR VICE VERSA takes Move (for the invader). This was a major plot point in one direction (they couldn't land) and now in the other (they can't take off).

In a regular hex, where courtyard and airspace aren't separate zones, I don't think they'd have this restriction; this restriction isn't a separate game mechanic, just an extension of the way cities work.



I agree with ftl. The Dwagons did not "land off turn" they died. The corpses fell. The dwagons with heavy hobgobwins either crashed or fell. I expect that a "crash landing" would not really exist on erf world in the way it exists in stupid world. Stupid world physics related to momentum fail at boundaries. Erf's relativity of time also effects the physics of velocity, momentum, acceleration, and energy because all of them have a time component in stupid world.


Saladman wrote:
Those last lines are intriguing, in a way I didn't catch at first.

"We've got some stray flame," he said, indicating a spot where the fallen reds' breath had ignited part of the Garrison ornamentation.

Sylvia looked at the fire wistfully.

"Barely a candle," she said. "Take some pinks. Go blow it out."


This could, with a large stretch, be taken to mean she's no longer as hot on burning the Tower/things in general/the whole world down as she was. Which would make a second Decrypted after Ossomer starting to question her orders and purpose. More likely though it just means she's sobered up after the adrenaline rush and this extraneous fire doesn't do her orders any good.


Sylvia has no move. If the atrium burns the decrypted burn to dust. The tower could fall away from the atrium.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:08 pm

I totally called epic Archer vs Artemis duel!

Also it seems like Sylvia didn't really have exposed flanks, just Artemis failing several spot checks.

Also lots and lots of cool tactics. In particular the green-red dwagon combo. And the fact the green gas can insta-big even warlords. Very very interesting.

And extra ironic that Artemis knights went into a rampage never missing any attacks, only for her to critically miss everything but the dwagon.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Raza » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:14 pm

Nice update. I'm wondering how an arrow flying true from unit A to unit B could collide with an arrow flying true from unit B to unit C, though.

pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:Sylvia has no move. If the atrium burns the decrypted burn to dust. The tower could fall away from the atrium.

Not if they keep chipping away at the side that borders it, it won't.

It might collapse straight-ish down though; definitely dangerous, but not something that'd wipe out the Atrium... could be Purpose Served for Sylvia, but honestly with the only named-and-fated piece of stonework having come down already, I wouldn't expect that to be her fate. Maybe Slately's heavy crown?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Lamech » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:19 pm

Raza wrote:
pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:Sylvia has no move. If the atrium burns the decrypted burn to dust. The tower could fall away from the atrium.

Not if they keep chipping away at the side that borders it, it won't.

It might collapse straight-ish down though; definitely dangerous, but not something that'd wipe out the Atrium... could be Purpose Served for Sylvia, but honestly with the only named-and-fated piece of stonework having come down already, I wouldn't expect that to be her fate. Maybe Slately's heavy crown?

Actually the damage is being spread through out the tower. The top of the tower is crumbling as is the bottom parts of the tower. Blame weird Erf physics.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Angband » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:19 pm

Klivian wrote:I suspect that the reason Sylvia is still kicking is that she attuned to the 'pliers. When she talked to Ossomer about the feeling she got when she picked them up, he lied about feeling the same thing. I get the feeling that her attunement will come back later on.


When Stanley attuned there was a sparkly special effect.

When Wanda attuned there was a sparkly special effect.

When precrypted Sylvia held the 'pliers there was no sparkly special effect.

Therefore the idea that Sylvia attuned to the 'pliers is completely unsupported.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:20 pm

teratorn wrote:
tennisplaya wrote:One of the things I was really struck by in this update was how weak dwagons seemed to be.


I feel the opposite, on the ground they killed knights stacked with a level 8 warlord (Jillian killed a dwagon fighting solo). I expected much better from knights, those guys were all supposed to be high level, and with another high level stacked as a bonus. It means JS is done, stacks of regular units won't stand a change against dwagons.


Leadership is indeed very important. Remember that text update where GK's unled infantry auto-charges Jetstone, and an unled squad of GK stabbers is taking/inflicting losses 3 to 1 against a led stack of Jetstone stabbers by a simple level 1 warlord. A lv 8 warlord would certainly provide a brutal bonus.

Notice that when Artemis crashed into Sylvia's stack, only one purple bited it before they were wiped out, as that stack benefited from Sylvia's own leadership.

Leadership is just that good. It turns measly bats into heavies if you have enough of it.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Chance Gardener » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:21 pm

I'm thinking that it's probably time to put in my thought that the reason Sylvia is so "lucky" and so into fate and flame is that she is totally and utterly batboop insane.

I think back in Book 1, while dying in a holocaust blaze holding a Tool of Fate, her brain got twisted and bent.
Her love of Parson is indicative of this: she connects to the one who ripped her from life but set it up for her to be brought back...

...so she can share her form of death with all Erfworlders.



Like fools and drunks, insane people seem to be divinely protected and I think that is why Sylvia keeps surviving.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:27 pm

tennisplaya wrote:One of the things I was really struck by in this update was how weak dwagons seemed to be. As far as we know, the main the the Hammer does is tames Dwagons. The arkenpliers can raise a whole army. So it seems like the dwagons should be really powerful if that's all the hammer gets. And they were unled, but still there were six dwagons vs. 12 knights and a warlord right? And they killed like 1 knight and hurt most of the others, but that's it?



Weak is relative. I think we got examples of how powerful weapons are. There is no reason to believe that the red dwagon's chomp is weaker than the swing of a warlords great axe. Also the dwagons were injured by the Jetstone rain. so the swings might be equivalent damage to a dwagons breath weapon. A lowly marbit gave Manpower the Temporary his taste of key lime pie at the start of book one. Vinny kick boxed five dwagons to death. So this is not really new information or a change in Rob's style.

What struck me was that the description of melee combat followed an alternating round sequence. The stack of warlords were able to swing before the dwagons could use breath. More convincing is that Artemis watched the incoming critical hit arrow but did not dodge or attempt a dodge. Artemis had already decided to fire an arrow in that round.

I am not convinced that Sylvia is being arrogant when she smiles at fate. Smiling is not taking an action and there is not much else to do. Whistling was a prudent tactical choice IMO.

My question is whether Parson is also effected by Erf's combat mechanics. The ability to react to an opponent in stupid time ("real" time) would be an obscene tactical advantage if the opponents are unable to do the same.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby vrellum » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:15 pm

too bad, i was hoping (but not expecting) Sylvia would die.

Too many midair collisions and miraculous shots for my tastes. I hope there is some explanation for it.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby thaco4 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:02 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Parson though cannot die*. Him being sent back to Stupidworld then returning to Erfworld is not Parson dying. The fact is, Mr. Protagonist is so central to the story that permanently removing him from it would be a huge WTF moment.

*: which may happen, admittedly. It sure would be a curveball. But it's so darn unlikely so as to not be worth speculating on. The story, so far, is in various ways revolving around Parson. To remove him completely changes it, to the point that the story Erfworld that we knew before just cannot go on. It won't be the story of a gamerboy summoned to a world in havoc to set it right. You could replace Parson by some other similar protagonist, but why go through that trouble?

So Parson is de facto immortal.


One thing, isn't that what everyone thought of the main characters in Song of Fire and Ice by George R. R. Martin. Not to give anything away to people who haven't read the series but I think that taught us all that any character can die.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Morgaln » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:44 pm

Catalyst wrote:Slyvia really gets on my nerves. I thought she was interesting at first, but her arrogance is grating. Most decrypted are that way i guess. I just really liked Artemis, much more than Slyvia. And decrypted Artemis is not as cool, unless she resists like Ossomer is.


I agree wholeheartedly. It's also grating on my nerves that Artemis try was foiled by force of author, not a plot-related reason; and no, the extraordinary luck can't really be a plot point because the text updates are not supposed to bring up plot points that are important to the story. Unless it is brought up again in the comics, which then means GK can't really fail here, considering fate does not let them lose.

I'm starting to think Erfworld is just not a comic for me; we're never really told the rules of this world, just so things that are perfectly normal for Erfworlders can be cheap surprises for us; which in turn means, if we are told about a rule (like dropping things off-turn), we automatically know that will be a plot point months before we reach the point where it actually matters. That in turn causes a reaction of "yes, we all figured that one out weeks ago, get on with the story". It also means those things that should be momentous changes of the rules are lessened in impact; for all we knew, Kingsworld could have been a regular spell, we didn't know anything about what magic in general and turnamancy in particular can really do. We had to see the surprise of the characters before we could even realise that wasn't a move that could have been expected.
I'm also getting annoyed at dozens upon dozens of obscure pop culture reference being stacked upon one another in every single page of the comic. It feels like those are more important than doing a compelling story and believable, three-dimensional characters. For me, all these references are getting in the way of making the characters and the story stand on their own. I don't really care for any of the characters because I know next to nothing about them except that they all seem to be in love with Jillian (especially Jillian herself ;) ). Artemis was one exception because her backstory actually represented her as a human with hopes and dreams and failures. I guess I'm just missing some deeper emotion and character portrayal here.
Please note that all this does not mean the comic is bad or that I don't acknowledge that Rob and Xin have talent. I just think it's time for me to walk away from this and concentrate on comics that give me what I want from a story, and I had to get these things off my chest before I leave. Sorry for ranting.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby gameboy1234 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:27 pm

effataigus wrote:Crazy.

I feel like Rob is trying to kill Erfworld so he can kick Webcomic-Death in the nuts and steal his scythe when He shows up for Erfworld's soul. Normally I'd warn Rob that Webcomic-Death is a nut-less skeleton, but he sure seems to look like he knows what he is doing.
...
Indeed, this really does seem to be reversal of roles from the last story. Fate is cheating the other side now. I love that Artemis is calling the titans out on it.


I think Rob is just trolling his fans here a bit. "Look what I had to do to keep Sylvia alive." It's like the GM rolling dice behind the screen, and cheating on the rolls. "Nope, your crit missed." And yeah, Artemis is definitely calling Rob out on it.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby gameboy1234 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:34 pm

multilis wrote:*Both* sides were absurdly lucky. Jetstone had extreme luck against the greens and reds. The two arrows colliding helped both sides. (We don't know the full bonuses... Wanda is in same zone as decrypted, Jetstone chief warlord is incapacitated, does a King/ruler in same hex give a bonus?)

It felt like both sides had some luckomancy help.



This is a good observation. Some RPGs (the table-top variety) allow players to acquire luck points of various sorts, which players can then spend to improve their rolls or get extra effects. I wonder if Rob envisions a similar mechanic at work here. Maybe high level units can acquire luck subconsciously and then "spend" it when needed. Erfworld seems like an amalgam of many types of games (RTS, citywalker sims, hex board games, Magic the Gathering, RPGs (computer and f2f) etc.), I wouldn't be surprised if any game mechanic can show up in Erfworld.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby StClair » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:22 am

Welp, so much for ANY remaining dramatic tension whatsoever until something (Parson, most likely, as many others have suggested) throws a spanner in the gears of Fate.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Chadim » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:40 am

Great update! Realy had me on the edge of my seat.
I definitely hope Artemis will be decrypted. Sylvia will see to that.
Concerning predictions about Sylvia attuning, you do realize that a decrypted atuning to the pliers could create a side with zero upkeep, yes?

Those last lines are intriguing, in a way I didn't catch at first.

"We've got some stray flame," he said, indicating a spot where the fallen reds' breath had ignited part of the Garrison ornamentation.

Sylvia looked at the fire wistfully.

"Barely a candle," she said. "Take some pinks. Go blow it out."



This could, with a large stretch, be taken to mean she's no longer as hot on burning the Tower/things in general/the whole world down as she was. Which would make a second Decrypted after Ossomer starting to question her orders and purpose. More likely though it just means she's sobered up after the adrenaline rush and this extraneous fire doesn't do her orders any good.


Oh. I took it as saying "Blow out that little fire. With the Dragons. The big Siege Dragons. :mrgreen: " I found it hilarious.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:17 am

That sounds like a good idea.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby kouhoutek » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:19 am

thaco4 wrote:One thing, isn't that what everyone thought of the main characters in Song of Fire and Ice by George R. R. Martin. Not to give anything away to people who haven't read the series but I think that taught us all that any character can die.


Martin is very dark, very adult fantasy. Killing off main characters is par for the course. See Williams, Tad.

Erfworld is humorous and light (but not shallow) fantasy. And if anything, it has gotten slightly less dark and adult...Wanda and Jillian's BDSM overtones have certainly faded into the background. Killing off main characters is far less likely.

Rob will do what Rob will do...he is good at surprising us. But Song of Fire and Ice is not a good indicator of what that might be.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 052

Postby Dr Pepper » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:22 am

Welcome to Gobwin Knob, Artemis and the Dogs of War! Parson will make good use of you.
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