Book 2 – Page 65

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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Kreistor » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:35 pm

Tachyon wrote:That would fall somewhere under the given set, since one does not stop at "does A = B", but instead continues asking questions. Often, when you do not get the desired answer to your question, the solution is another formula entirel.y


That's like saying:

1+1 = {0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ..., infinity}

And then when someone points out 2 is the only possibility, "I said that".

Nope, basically, he's right once, but wrong an infinite number of times. unless you identify the one correct answer from a set, you have solved nothing.

1+1 = 2

Not the entire non-negative integer set.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Lamech » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:55 pm

Tachyon wrote:Here's a wall of better plans for Charlie, or anyone opposed to GK: summon your own Perfect Warlord. Summon a walking superweapon the size of a fortress. Summon the Arkenpliers right out of Wanda's hand, or the Arkenhammer out of Stanley's, breaking their hold over the units that are loyal to their tools. Or, create a deadly situation for your enemies by doing what they least expect. Attack Gobwin Knob while its Chief Warlord and the majority of its forces are away, while they don't expect anyone to try again. Create morale issues for enemy troops by forcing them to take losses they aren't emotionally prepared to accept. Do the same for their leadership.
Some of these plans likely have problems. Most importantly these aren't alternatives to Jojo/MK-gank. Anyone with the means to do one of the above AND Jojo/MK-gank could do both. On to the actual plans. Summoning Charlie's own perfect warlord. Well Charlie might not know the exact recipe for the SPW spell. Even we don't know what it required. Second if it required a predictamancer (or any number of things), Charlie might not be able to get one. I bet summoning Arkentools is either really hard or impossible. Even if it was GK would just resummon it. The end result would be the summoners have everyone's cash AND the arkentools. Attacking GK might work. But they do have bunches of forces. Most of GK's airforce is gone, but only a token ground force was with. And there is that scary volcano still sitting there. What if Sizemore has it throw some deadly ash after securing Stanley in a sealed room? Or if can simply be commanded by Stanley as a full-fledged unit. Nothing ruins your day like a city sized lava golem killing everything.
Anyway there must be a reason none of these plans have been enacted. And any of these plans are moving yet unseen, Jojo+[any of these plans] is better than just [any of these plans].
Here's a better question: Why doesn't Charlie withdraw his scouting Archons from most of the sides he has been spying on (example: Haggar, or any of the RCC2 members) and make a second pass at GK with Jillian? She's roughly headed in that direction as she makes her way back to Faq; she could resupply at home, subtly appraise Don King of the plan, and then devastate GK. Charlie knows Parson is on the run, presumably, and the only opposition he would face is Stanley, with a small group of dwagons and some Hobgobwins, and Maggie, and some throwaway Twolls. For that matter, why doesn't Charlie get out of the fight entirely? He has nothing to gain by remaining in it, except his former reputation of neutrality.

I don't know. You tell me.
Charlie probably fears a TPK for the other sides against GK. Or that after getting a few thousand dwagons GK will float up and crush him. First time he loses his business and whatever his ultimate plan was. Second result kills him.
Right now why doesn't Charlie attack GK? Not his turn for starters, but next turn then? Wanda can get back in seconds. As can Jack and maybe even Parson. (But a new chief warlord can be named for the bonus if he can't.) Secondly only a token force was at Jetstone. They could still have every elf flavor, and who knows how many infantry. Then we got the basic issue of fighting decryption. Wanda provides a bonus to them, as does the artifact, and the chief warlord. All things Charlie's archons lack. So GK archons kill more that one Charlie archon a piece. And dead archons become GK archons, and things snowball. Plus the volcano is a big fat unknown. Charlie really doesn't need a lava burst croaking all of his archons.

We're assuming that GK would take the risk of spending that much money, too, while Jillian is busy ransacking their outlying, recently claimed cities, which are not yet defenisvely fortified against any sort of attack. But before that, let's also assume Charlie knows Parson can go through the portals. If he can just hire a caster to work within the MK, why not send that caster into GK to assassinate Stanley? He would already be violating one taboo, why not two?

Simple. Charlie can't risk being attached to the infamy that even hiring Jojo for what he already attempted would spread. Attending to Charlie's potential gains by remaining in the fight at all, that goes against all reason.
Stopping Jillian and buying another spell aren't mutually exclusive. And if need be the conspiracry doesn't need to charge. Only come up with a plausible reason. "We don't like Charlie being are main competitor for thinkamancy services, and he apparently hates perfect warlords on GK's side." or "Sorry about the defective scroll here's another."
And if Charlie is linked to Jojo it might anger GK/Parson, but it wasn't anything like an outright fight in the MK. He only offered to cast a spell. I assume your allowed to cast spells on people if they let you and the spell does as it says. An assassination attempt might work, but as soon as he bumps into a unled unit a fight would start, and Stanley would be alarmed.
Also I'm confused didn't you say...
Presently, Gobwin Knob is rolling in Shmuckers, so they'd pay for the support plan too, just to make sure it worked right this time.
? Not only buy another spell but pay for a support plan? Or Sizemore and Wanda can point out it made items more valuable than buying the spell.
Last edited by Lamech on Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Tachyon » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:06 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Tachyon wrote:That would fall somewhere under the given set, since one does not stop at "does A = B", but instead continues asking questions. Often, when you do not get the desired answer to your question, the solution is another formula entirel.y


That's like saying:

1+1 = {0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ..., infinity}

And then when someone points out 2 is the only possibility, "I said that".

Nope, basically, he's right once, but wrong an infinite number of times. unless you identify the one correct answer from a set, you have solved nothing.

1+1 = 2

Not the entire non-negative integer set.

Before we get so meta that I am lost entirely by this chain of discussion, let me revise what I was trying to imply.

I wasn't assuming we were working with real numbers to begin with. Note the variables; they don't have to be real numbers. They could even be new subsets, or new, detached equations that don't rely on A, or alternately B, and in any case don't equal C. The answer in question was the agreement you've been attempting to reach, which as I perceive it is for you guys to agree on what facts exist and which statements are merely conjecture.

As I see it you have two options.

You can either ask leading questions that will cause him to answer the question properly by forcing him to digest more facts to answer competently. Alternately, give him more facts and make thorough use of repetition and uncomplicated speech to deliver the facts. Both solutions attempt to resolve one problem: two people cannot agree on how to interpret a formula if their key data (or heaven forbid, the formula itself) differs drastically. I don't think I need to explain how to argue to you, at any rate, so I'm sorry if this is sounding like that; I don't mean nothin' by it.

It seemed like you were done with the discussion, but if you've a new tack to try, I prefer the brass ones.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Kreistor » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:31 pm

Tachyon wrote:It seemed like you were done with the discussion, but if you've a new tack to try, I prefer the brass ones.


Tach, I have to explain the basics of philosophical theory to him before he can even get to the basic understanding of how logical debate works.

Basically, he's relying on "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence." I'm fine with that, so long as Occam's Razor isn't violated, in the original form of the Razor. The original Razor is "The solution that introduces the least number of new assumptions is the most likely solution", not the more common modern statement, "The simplest solution must be the correct one." But if I have to argue those very concepts, we're never going to agree on anything, because he's not a debater, he's a contrarian. You can never convince a contrarian of anything, because they will argue the very foundation of the debate, which is logic itself, which simply cannot be proven. Mathematics uses unprovable axioms as its foundation, and philosophy uses logic, but a contrarian will attack the very existence of logic itself when backed into a corner. And Lamech is getting closer to that point in every post. I recognize the signs. Enough is enough.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Tachyon » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:33 pm

Lamech wrote:Attacking GK might work. But they do have bunches of forces. Most of GK's airforce is gone, but only a token ground force was with. And there is that scary volcano still sitting there. What if Sizemore has it throw some deadly ash after securing Stanley in a sealed room? Or if can simply be commanded by Stanley as a full-fledged unit. Nothing ruins your day like a city sized lava golem killing everything.
Anyway there must be a reason none of these plans have been enacted. And any of these plans are moving yet unseen, Jojo+[any of these plans] is better than just [any of these plans].

Now that's a plan. If Sizemore could pull that off, I bet he'd jump to Master-class.

Lamech wrote:
Tachyon wrote:Here's a better question: Why doesn't Charlie withdraw his scouting Archons from most of the sides he has been spying on (example: Haggar, or any of the RCC2 members) and make a second pass at GK with Jillian? She's roughly headed in that direction as she makes her way back to Faq; she could resupply at home, subtly appraise Don King of the plan, and then devastate GK. Charlie knows Parson is on the run, presumably, and the only opposition he would face is Stanley, with a small group of dwagons and some Hobgobwins, and Maggie, and some throwaway Twolls. For that matter, why doesn't Charlie get out of the fight entirely? He has nothing to gain by remaining in it, except his former reputation of neutrality.

I don't know. You tell me.
Charlie probably fears a TPK for the other sides against GK. Or that after getting a few thousand dwagons GK will float up and crush him. First time he loses his business and whatever his ultimate plan was. Second result kills him.
Right now why doesn't Charlie attack GK? Not his turn for starters, but next turn then? Wanda can get back in seconds. As can Jack and maybe even Parson. (But a new chief warlord can be named for the bonus if he can't.) Secondly only a token force was at Jetstone. They could still have every elf flavor, and who knows how many infantry. Then we got the basic issue of fighting decryption. Wanda provides a bonus to them, as does the artifact, and the chief warlord. All things Charlie's archons lack. So GK archons kill more that one Charlie archon a piece. And dead archons become GK archons, and things snowball. Plus the volcano is a big fat unknown. Charlie really doesn't need a lava burst croaking all of his archons.

Fair enough, but Charlie also doesn't have to fight. He can provide support, intel, and depending on his units' Specials, a number of other things. Also, presumably Charlie has his own portal to the MK. If he does, then it's just as big a risk for him (if it turns out he's a caster) to resize the Arkendish to make it portable and step through himself. Then his Archons would get the Overlord bonus and the Artifact bonus too, assuming either of those things exist. I figured as long as we were discussing the ridiculous, we could discuss the extravagantly ridiculous as well.

Lamech wrote:
Tachyon wrote:We're assuming that GK would take the risk of spending that much money, too, while Jillian is busy ransacking their outlying, recently claimed cities, which are not yet defenisvely fortified against any sort of attack. But before that, let's also assume Charlie knows Parson can go through the portals. If he can just hire a caster to work within the MK, why not send that caster into GK to assassinate Stanley? He would already be violating one taboo, why not two?

Simple. Charlie can't risk being attached to the infamy that even hiring Jojo for what he already attempted would spread. Attending to Charlie's potential gains by remaining in the fight at all, that goes against all reason.

Stopping Jillian and buying another spell aren't mutually exclusive. And if need be the conspiracry doesn't need to charge. Only come up with a plausible reason. "We don't like Charlie being are main competitor for thinkamancy services, and he apparently hates perfect warlords on GK's side." or "Sorry about the defective scroll here's another."
And if Charlie is linked to Jojo it might anger GK/Parson, but it wasn't anything like an outright fight in the MK. He only offered to cast a spell. I assume your allowed to cast spells on people if they let you and the spell does as it says. An assassination attempt might work, but as soon as he bumps into a unled unit a fight would start, and Stanley would be alarmed.
Also I'm confused didn't you say...
Tachyon wrote:Presently, Gobwin Knob is rolling in Shmuckers, so they'd pay for the support plan too, just to make sure it worked right this time.
? Not only buy another spell but pay for a support plan? Or Sizemore and Wanda can point out it made items more valuable than buying the spell.

Well, I never said this was an invalid strategy. But that also, then, assumes we're talking about some new warlord who packs enough of a punch personally to not need to be able to command other units (Wanda is not the Perfect Findamancer; a good one could probably find a Warlord who needed no additional equipment). No matter what game you're playing, in combat, you need to protect yourself on as many fronts as possible given the resources you have; if you're not spending them actively, you're not spending enough. Also, it's pretty clear that the spell caused those items to exist to give Parson enough edges that he lacked to make him the "Perfect Warlord", given the way Wanda cast it. The side that casts the spell doesn't necessarily know about that, and we haven't seen any evidence to indicate that Wanda did. GK might be able to make that inference, but Parson is the only one among them who's enough of a metagamer to make that connection (he would have by now, if he were seriously considering that as an option). In addition, the given cost for the Artifact Parson makes regular use of was an estimate. I cannot stress this enough.

The point I've been trying to make here is that there is an established pattern of the obvious solutions not occurring to the people who seem to need them most. Otherwise we'd see stuff like the plans I suggested being put into motion. Jojo's attempt failed miserably (for the time being), and we can't know what the next pages will bring. Therefore, whether Charlie hired him or not, continuing to argue the point (which is unprovable, despite all psuedo-forensic efforts on your part) is a bit of a farce.

The comic makes a point of parodying the Wizard of Oz, with Parson, however. I would not at all be surprised if his means to return home winds up having been in his hands the whole time, but this is a strip in which tragedy ensues en masse, regardless of the face that's put on it. Effectively you're trying to determine the overarching theme of the comic while it's still in medias res and then make inferences in reverse after having done so about what events will occur, which is not remotely a good use of time. Speculation being an entertaining hobby notwithstanding, there is a point at which too grand a speculative notion becomes less than reasonable - if not in your own mind, then at least as a discussion piece - and we passed that point the moment more than four quotations of quotations became a staple of your posts.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Lamech » Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:27 pm

The point I've been trying to make here is that there is an established pattern of the obvious solutions not occurring to the people who seem to need them most. Otherwise we'd see stuff like the plans I suggested being put into motion. Jojo's attempt failed miserably (for the time being), and we can't know what the next pages will bring. Therefore, whether Charlie hired him or not, continuing to argue the point (which is unprovable, despite all psuedo-forensic efforts on your part) is a bit of a farce.
One "obvious solutions not occurring" would kind of support shoot down any argument like "Person X would have used a better plan than Y, so Person X did not do Y." True I can't prove Charlie is behind this. But the argument with Kreistor was not to prove Charlie hired him. It was against the claim that Charlie would have definitely used some sort of mystical better plan. I for one believe Charlie fits well with being the one behind Jojo. (If not directly hiring him, tipping him off, or directing him somehow to do so.) Charlie could know from Jillian that Parson was summoned. Or he could have concluded it a few other ways. Charlie is working with Unaroyal casters. Charlie specifically fears Parson, while the royals and even most other sides seem to fear GK.

And too list the other big players: Jetstone, Haggar, Translovito, FAQ, the conspiracy, unaroyal casters, and the other free casters of the MK.
Jetstone just learned of Parson. Translovito is close to Jetstone so they would likely share info therefore they didn't know of Parson earlier. While it is possible upon learning of Parson they devised this trap, the scroll makes it seem a pre-planned thing; not cobbled together this turn. Jillian doesn't seem to have the tactical knowledge or planning to figure this out. Haggar wasn't overly concerned with GK until recently and I don't think they know about Parson besides; maybe they quick changed there tune, but I doubt it. The conspiracy is pro-Parson is seems so that is right out. The unaroyal casters might definitely try but I don't see how they could have been ready and waiting without someone tipping them off. Nor knowledge of Parson being a summoner. Finally the free casters of the MK. They would certainly want to do this too, and definitely have the resources, and they could have gotten the requisite knowledge because of a leak.
Third there could be some previously minor or unknown guy behind this. But I think its too late in the book to introduce someone.
But Charlie seems to be more the anti-Parson guy. We haven't seen a whole lot of anti-GK acts from the MK, yet we see Charlie with Kingworld and with preventing gobwins from popping.

Finally that is why I think Charlie is the most likely culprit for providing Jojo with the info needed for this attempt.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Tachyon » Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:19 am

Lamech wrote:
The point I've been trying to make here is that there is an established pattern of the obvious solutions not occurring to the people who seem to need them most. Otherwise we'd see stuff like the plans I suggested being put into motion. Jojo's attempt failed miserably (for the time being), and we can't know what the next pages will bring. Therefore, whether Charlie hired him or not, continuing to argue the point (which is unprovable, despite all psuedo-forensic efforts on your part) is a bit of a farce.
One "obvious solutions not occurring" would kind of support shoot down any argument like "Person X would have used a better plan than Y, so Person X did not do Y." True I can't prove Charlie is behind this. But the argument with Kreistor was not to prove Charlie hired him. It was against the claim that Charlie would have definitely used some sort of mystical better plan. I for one believe Charlie fits well with being the one behind Jojo. (If not directly hiring him, tipping him off, or directing him somehow to do so.) Charlie could know from Jillian that Parson was summoned. Or he could have concluded it a few other ways. Charlie is working with Unaroyal casters. Charlie specifically fears Parson, while the royals and even most other sides seem to fear GK.

And too list the other big players: Jetstone, Haggar, Translovito, FAQ, the conspiracy, unaroyal casters, and the other free casters of the MK.
Jetstone just learned of Parson. Translovito is close to Jetstone so they would likely share info therefore they didn't know of Parson earlier. While it is possible upon learning of Parson they devised this trap, the scroll makes it seem a pre-planned thing; not cobbled together this turn. Jillian doesn't seem to have the tactical knowledge or planning to figure this out. Haggar wasn't overly concerned with GK until recently and I don't think they know about Parson besides; maybe they quick changed there tune, but I doubt it. The conspiracy is pro-Parson is seems so that is right out. The unaroyal casters might definitely try but I don't see how they could have been ready and waiting without someone tipping them off. Nor knowledge of Parson being a summoner. Finally the free casters of the MK. They would certainly want to do this too, and definitely have the resources, and they could have gotten the requisite knowledge because of a leak.
Third there could be some previously minor or unknown guy behind this. But I think its too late in the book to introduce someone.
But Charlie seems to be more the anti-Parson guy. We haven't seen a whole lot of anti-GK acts from the MK, yet we see Charlie with Kingworld and with preventing gobwins from popping.

Finally that is why I think Charlie is the most likely culprit for providing Jojo with the info needed for this attempt.

The argument I made earlier for Transylvito being behind Jojo has the same standards as the one for Charlie being the hand at work. That is, if anybody were to trace the attempt back to its source, it would cause suspicion and distrust of the source; neither Transylvito nor Charlie can afford to have the majority of the free casters (and any casters who happen to respect the freedom of the MK themselves, along with potentially whatever sides they belong to) declare war on them. Transylvito, however, still hasn't had a ton of its secrets stolen by GK in the form of turned units; they have the larger expectation of secrecy being maintained by anybody they contract with (especially if, after having been sent to the MK, Jojo agreed to work for Transylvito, which works out for additional, flavor-based reasons: Jojo is a shyster by discipline, Transylvito is effectively mafia; when you're trying to make someone an offer they can't refuse, it's best if you have someone to sell it who can't easily be refused). The secret they want to keep is, naturally, having ordered a hit to take place inside the MK, but they have fewer secrets overall and are therefore quantifiably less paranoid about leaking their unrelated strategies by accident in the execution of their strategies. Qualifiably, Jojo has nothing to gain by violating such a nondisclosure arrangement; he's still toast even if he only acts alone, and if he was hired, he got paid. That's called hush money. A little now, a lot later to keep it all worth your while.

In addition, planning takes place using hex-local time; what seems an hour in one hex can be several in another (you could chalk that up to Fate Magic, really, since the time of day is dependent on how close the day is to ending, which is dependent on how close the day's action is to ending, which for you is dependent on how close to done you are making plans in your own hex and executing them wherever they happen - it could be sunset within Jetstone, but midday in Transylvito, which makes moving through portals on your off-turn really screwy if you think about it - it's basically time travel of the silliest nature). There is more than enough time for Transylvito to have chance to survive make their time. And they have a pretty good Thinkamancer; she could arrange for things to happen.

Because of hex-local time, the trend in Erfworld has been, "if you can change plans easily mid-execution and it benefits you to do so, there's no point in making a lot of long-term plans that could fail if variables change", and with regards to short-term plans, the same is true. Charlie making himself available for hire during Jetstone's turn only after noticing he could make it profitable for himself (when Wanda and Ansom were fighting over the 'pliers above GK, in Book 1) is a good example of this. Jojo seems like a short-term plan in action, possibly not very well thought out, and probably hacked together just this turn, and Transylvito therefore had the opportunity, in addition to means and motive.

We don't know that Charlie is preventing Gobwins from popping (they're Natural Allies; they couldn't have just moved on nomadically after that event? Gobwins were the primary miners for GK prior to the volcano uncroaking, as well, and they were in the tunnels fighting at the time Sizemore collapsed them - probably all or most of them were wiped out in all the collective action, not to mention the actual fighting, and then the explosion), and it's irrelevant to this argument (can't prove, no visible or implied evidence, doesn't speak to motive or means for the main point of what we're discussing), so let's set that aside - for the time being, it's nonsense we should not consider.

Charlie's information has changed recently - he learned that Wanda probably would fight on his side (the reason he may or may not know: she wants to unite the Arkentools). This somewhat changes his priorities to making sure that she is captured or turns (croaking and retrieving the 'pliers is an option if either or both other options prove to be unfeasible). Parson is yet another case where, if the tables were turned slightly, Charlie would want him on his side. The last Arkentool could be taken care of by croaking Stanley; rather than doing away with Parson, Charlie's best bet if he's going to take any action at all is to do something that prevents both Parson and Wanda from just turning around and heading home (giving them too much to lose by doing so), stall or prevent the arrival of Parson (additional leadership) and destroy part of GK's plans by doing so, possibly acquire at least the Mathamancy Bracer (Charlie knows it can make very sophisticated predictions and wouldn't want it falling into untrustworthy hands, either, and Jojo's disposition is effectively that of a used car salesman), croak or capture some decrypted Archons to make his secrets less transparent, and the list goes on.

Feasibility notwithstanding, Charlie has a lot of tools at his disposal in the form of Archons and his Tool, and he's not half-bad as a strategist, and despite all of his security worries he has better options than the really dangerous, slightly stupid stuff you're suggesting. If nothing else, croaking Parson might serve to encourage Wanda to work with him at some point, another risk he wouldn't take knowing what he knows now. And if Charlie had previously ordered Jojo into action before learning this, he could cancel it with a thought, again due to hex-local time, and Jojo would have no reason to disobey, since he'd have already been paid something.

There are numerous strategies Charlie's shown interest in already, which we can draw on for evidence. For one, presumably his offer of credit to Jetstone for capturing and handing over a decrypted Archon has been extended to other sides.

He's not limited to trying only one strategy. He is limited to using only strategies that would not be likely to ruin each other when played in tandem. Getting behind action in the MK that could bring his world down on top of him if discovered would, at minimum, ruin any hope he has at getting his former units back and solving the puzzle of decryption (by turning everyone actively against him and removing them from willingness to help), and would make things much worse for him in general too.

Anything involving croaking or removing Parson hinders several alternate strategies which would be of more benefit to him, so as long as those other strategies remain on the table, it's not in his best interest to pursue the first two. And at near minimum, he wants the Mathamancy Bracer - Charlie really wants the Artifact as well as Parson on his side. At bare minimum, he would try to destroy it, rather than let it fall into enemy hands - the only way it makes sense for Charlie to have been behind Jojo, then, is if the scroll was intended to kill Parson or unsummon or destroy the bracer, or otherwise disable both Artifact and owner. And Charlie wouldn't risk just randomly tipping off someone who might accidentally destroy something he wanted, and certainly wouldn't order them to action if he had any doubt at all about it. Jillian, at least, was emotionally desperate enough that Charlie could rely on her to act within a given set of parameters, but Jojo? Especially after Jillian already turned out to be unreliable? Don't think so. Charlie might make mistakes but he wouldn't make the same one twice in a row if he could avoid it. And Jillian wasn't trying to croak/capture Parson at the time, so she wouldn't have botched that. It's a different situation with a potentially worse outcome.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Lamech » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:24 am

I think there is one big point of disagreement, (and a bunch more minor ones):
That is, if anybody were to trace the attempt back to its source, it would cause suspicion and distrust of the source; neither Transylvito nor Charlie can afford to have the majority of the free casters (and any casters who happen to respect the freedom of the MK themselves, along with potentially whatever sides they belong to) declare war on them.
Jojo's attempt to me didn't seem like a actual hit. I don't think he was going to attack Parson, but simply offer to send him home. Presumably casting spells on units in the MK if those units are willing and the spells do as advertised is not frowned upon. The casters of the MK don't seem to like Parson; I don't think the MK casters would condone an attack, but I think they would be rather happy if someone gave Parson something he wanted, and that something got him off of Erfworld.

That said if it was an actual attempted hit I doubt Charlie would have risked it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:55 am

Tachyon wrote:Anything involving croaking or removing Parson hinders several alternate strategies which would be of more benefit to him, so as long as those other strategies remain on the table, it's not in his best interest to pursue the first two. And at near minimum, he wants the Mathamancy Bracer - Charlie really wants the Artifact as well as Parson on his side. At bare minimum, he would try to destroy it, rather than let it fall into enemy hands - the only way it makes sense for Charlie to have been behind Jojo, then, is if the scroll was intended to kill Parson or unsummon or destroy the bracer, or otherwise disable both Artifact and owner.


I agree that Charlie is extra greedy, tryng to milk as much money out of the GK batle in the first book as possible instead of just taking the big prize(Hamster+bracer) when the oportunity presented itself and calling it a day (which cost him dearly mind you but old habits die hard)

However remember that the scroll can be literally anything. It could be some mindrape/sugestion/turning spell to make Hamster turn to Charlie (and heck he's already at the MK, Charlie's portal is just next door). It could be some "summon warlord to Charlie" spell. Considering Charlie had the resources to pull out kingworld, it's not that much of a stretch he could have given Jojo some scroll to make sure Hamster would work for him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Tachyon » Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:55 pm

Let's not forget that a scroll can apparently be a combination of multiple disciplines. I'm just making a guess at the basic functions based on all we know and can infer.

Remembering that the first column is the Erf element, second is Fate, and the third is Numbers:

Findamancy Predictamancy Mathamancy
Turnamancy Dollamancy Weirdomancy
Dirtamancy Changemancy Dittomancy
Lookamancy Thinkamancy Foolamancy
Flower Power Signamancy Date-a-mancy
Shockamancy Croakamancy Retconjuration
Hat Magic Carnymancy Rhyme-o-mancy
Luckamancy Healomancy Moneymancy

Findamancy deals with the spatial locations of objects and entities. It A) Can divine the location of anything, anywhere, given enough Juice is spent to do it and the caster is competent, given B) you have some general or specific idea of what the thing you're trying to find and move is. Divination, dowsing, whatever you want to call it, this is that. Reasonably speaking, Parson has already been found; the only thing a scroll of this nature might do is if the spell were to "find the Perfect Warlord", as it would settle any arguments about whether Parson is or is not that. Naturally, whether it would "locate" him or not has a lot to do with whether the caster has the right idea of what "Perfect Warlord" means. Forseeably it's less the need specifically for a scroll and more the need for the spell to be able to work, since Parson is carrying the Staff of Suckage. Jojo looks a bit too maliciously confident while hiding behind the portal when we first see him for this to be the case.

Given Marie's offhanded remark about "difficult Predictamancy" and all that it implies, Predictamancy deals with determining the likelihood of inevitable events occurring, perhaps in the forseeable future, or perhaps at some given time. The trope of soothsaying contains a lot of contradictions, and implied rules which coincidentally often contradict each other. She also offhandedly mentions that things can get foggy, and may have been lying. Regardless, if the scroll belongs to this discipline, then all that needs to be predicted is the ultimate event Parson will set into motion with regards to how it will affect whoever is behind Jojo being there in the first place. Again, this is not really a malicious spell; Jojo looks too malicious for the scroll to be of this discipline.

Mathamancy can involve any raw calculations, but presumably not their actualization. At best, it would provide concrete details on a given scenario involving variables entered into the prediction. Considering you need to provide information to get a result from this discipline, it's no better than deductive reasoning (plus or minus concrete details to work with). Ironically, a spell of this discipline would not even enter into the equation for "spells that might be contained in the scroll".

Turnamancy is a Physical (Erf)-based alteration of a target's Motion. If by Motion, momentum (real motion or the motions of a target's machinations) is implied, then we can deduce that it involves altering A) the direction or velocity of a target, B) the direction or velocity of a target's thoughts, or C) some combination thereof. At best this would turn Parson to Charlie's side, but it's not even being cast by a caster belonging to the Turnamancy discipline. We've already discussed reasons this is improbable (Vanna having previously been available).

Dollamancy deals with making fabricated objects move in a predetermined way, of their own volition (given that the volition as well as preset conditions for what can provoke it into action are also fabricated by the caster). Parson, as near as we can determine, is not a fabricated object within the reality of the comic. This is not the discipline of the scroll.

Weirdomancy presumably has to do with removing logic from the behavior of otherwise logical objects or entities (for example: a curse that causes an airborne, random species of dead fish to repeatedly appear at unpredictable times in strange places and land on them or in their general vicinity, or one that causes the target to spontaneously combust if they say the words "banana phone", etc.) If we are to assume the object of Jojo's machinations is to remove some degree of rationality from Parson's existence, then this is a possible category of spell contained in the scroll. I cannot, however, see the advantage of doing this over directly casting a Carnymancy spell on Parson (something Jojo is obviously capable of). For now I will put this theory on the bottom rung of rationality.

Dirtamancy, as we've seen, is dangerous, but works by manipulating "dirt" of various types. It is not directly offensive, and a Carnymancer likely has no need of it, unless somehow he could use this to kill Parson (not before he has a chance to react, we can assume, save in the case of "rocks fall, everyone dies" or erasing the ground beneath him and taking potshots at him while he's in a pitfall trap) without leaving evidence of the attack behind. Unlikely candidate for scroll contents.

Changemancy, it can be assumed, has to deal with altering the elemental nature of a target (example: changing water to ice, ice to steam, etc.). Perhaps I'm overreaching, but should it be subject to the rules Maggie specified for Thinkamantic suggestions, it "cannot turn a mouse into a maniac" - there presumably has to be some logical transition from matter state to matter state, and in any case, there ought to be a previously existing material to work with (at best, Jojo has available to work with Dirt, Stone, and Air, and anything on Parson's person, and it won't be doing anything that Shockamancy could do). One could call this discipline synthesis, or limited transmutation. I can't see a practical application for this that another discipline couldn't accomplish, but it is a remotely plausible theory.

Dittomancy has to deal with duplicating the existence of a target. I can see many applications for this, and it is the most likely candidate I can think of for the scroll's contents. If all Charlie wanted was the Bracer, I could understand casting this, but I wouldn't be able to understand Jojo tossing Parson the scroll. Moreover, because the caster who activates a scroll has control enough to specify its working parameters, one would assume that a caster attempting to cast the spell could instantly know them (thus the Signamancy of the scroll itself; scrolls are meant to be "read" and understood). At this juncture, I can reasonably assume that the scroll actually works as advertised, and does not clone or produce an evil twin of Parson.

Lookamancy, as we know, has to do with remote viewing, and perhaps snatching up details from a target's mind as well. I cannot see a practical application of this beyond trying to find out what Parson knows (which still only gives limited information; Parson does not contain perfect knowledge of all of GK's dealings, or there are risks he would not be liable to take). Unlikely candidate.

Thinkamancy is well within Charlie's domain. The scroll could have been a ruse to get Parson to drop the staff, but at one point before he entered the MK, he hadn't been holding it, so Charlie would not have need of this ruse (and given his paranoia about his secrets being potentially compromised, rather than definitely, we can assume that Charlie would have long ago confirmed anything he needed to find out by this method; this rules out Charlie in at least this scenario). If the scroll contained Thinkamancy, which might have included a suggestion spell (or possibly whatever Hoboken was; if it was confirmed to be Thinkamancy then I have forgotten it) or at minimum contained an encoded message, I still cannot see the point of handing it to a Carnymancer, unless the person who orchestrated the tunnel scene knows about the Staff of Suckage and created the scroll on the spot. There is a very small chance this is correct. However, everyone knows that GK has a Thinkamancer due to Parson contacting Ansom via a Thinkagram during Book 1; there is little chance that in handling Parson's communications, she would not pick up on secret information he had gleaned while in the MK. I must therefore discard the Thinkamancy suggestion.

Foolamancy involves creating illusions. While it's not entirely clear what this operates on, I'm going to guess it has to do with bending light, considering that the illusions Jack generated while Stanley attempted to escape to Faq were physically passed through by Vinny. In any case I can't see the benefit of casting such a spell on Parson. The only plausible scenario here is that the intent is to make Parson look to his own side to be an enemy unit; something that, much akin to a suggestion spell, it has been confirmed cannot significantly alter how Parson appears in size and stature. It works with previously-existing images and distorts them. This is very unlikely to be the spell in the scroll.

Flower Power, as we've seen, effectively incapacitates a unit from a combat standpoint. They cannot execute their intended action - on the most limited scale, this means that it would deplete at least one of a unit's Hits per turn. There is effectiveness in casting this on Parson, if only to stop him from going through the portal or to prevent him from relaying orders once he did so - but an easier ruse would have been to lead him away from it or block it off somehow (Dirtamancy is more likely here), and at any rate, it doesn't negate his Leadership bonus, which is the primary reason for attempting to remove a Chief Warlord from a fight (aside from preventing the communication of orders). Somehow, this does not seem a strategy that a malicious side would use, nor a benevolent one. Unlikely candidate.

Signamancy has to do with the appearance of objects and entities, and belongs to the Fate element. It involves the detailing of livery, presumably some notion of feng shui, everything has its place and should be put in its place, true names, and so on. Specifically it is on both the Life and Matter axes; this is a very likely candidate, but only if A) it can somehow alter Parson's nature to make him not be the "Perfect Warlord", or B) if this is the primary component of any Unsummoning spell. As we don't know the details and I might be wrong, this is a possibility, but remains not one that should be given credence, for the time being.

Date-a-mancy has to do with relationships, pairings, basically everything to do with the combination of multiple objects and entities, and the end result of that combination (and possibly the interactions themselves, as well). You could call it relationship counseling, courtship, or you could (potentially) call it alchemy. Either way, I can't see a use for this against Parson that another discipline couldn't cover. Denied.

Shockamancy has to do with delivering a charge, possibly energizing things or polarizing them. Gravity, magnetism, electricity, directed energy; all of this deals with forcing latent energy into an active state. Or, making things explode, if you really want it to. Potential candidate against Parson, in which case this is either the best plan of retaliatory action, or the best practical joke ever (which covers the surprise element of this discipline as well).

Croakamancy requires corpses; the only thing that remotely resembles Croakamancy acting on life is Decryption. Let's leave out this discipline from consideration; Parson isn't dead yet.

Retconjuration has been said to belong to the Titans. One could call it "divine magic". If this is so, it's the principle on which all Arkentools might work. It also explains why Stanley can use the 'hammer, despite not being a caster, but it is the least likely candidate for what's inside that scroll. Thrown out.

Hat Magic requires a hat, presumably; if it doesn't then it is misnamed. Jojo is not wearing a hat (at least until he leaves), nor is the scroll. If the intent is to make Parson don a "different hat", i.e., do a different job (change a unit's class? Hmm... explains unit promotion), this probably has no potential benefit. Also, I'm pretty sure if Jojo were gonna cast hat magic, he'd pull it out of a hat. Better to have a Hat Magician do that. Denied.

Jojo is a Carnymancer. Unless he is trying to save his own Juice, he does not need a scroll to do what he can do himself. I'm gonna go with "no".

Rhyme-o-mancy seems similar to Signamancy or perhaps Date-a-mancy, except that it deals with combinations of words or ideas to broadcast emotions, occasionally in new and different ways. Poetry, rap, free verse, music. If all Jojo wanted to do was take Parson back to Earth with his words, he wouldn't have needed a scroll; he's a fair wordsmith and can work his way around a turn of phrase easily. If he was merely trying to convince him to turn, it would've made more sense to perform Turnamancy. Makes no sense to send a Carnymancer with a scroll when you could have a Turnamancer do it (although, given hex-local time, perhaps it was a last minute plan; I'm willing to give this theory consideration, but it still makes less sense than others, and I'm sorry, but I'm slightly more willing to go with what makes more sense).

Luckamancy. What is it? Luck. Good luck, bad luck, no luck at all. If this discipline contains an insta-kill spell (heart attack, lol) or can somehow make everything Parson does turn out badly, then it is a very good plan to cast this spell on Parson, or even better, make him cast it on himself. However, tossing him the scroll with the potential that he could use it himself but not target himself makes me think that this is not the case. I will ignore this theory.

Healomancy... is unnecessary here. Its nature is self-evident, as is the idea that it would be contained in the scroll. We've also seen that such scrolls are stylistically different in appearance. The idea that it is a Healomancy scroll can simply pack its bags and leave, unless by some hidden rationale, the same principles that apply to real-world medicine also apply here. See the quote.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus wrote:Paracelsus, sometimes called the father of toxicology, wrote:
German: Alle Ding' sind Gift, und nichts ohn' Gift; allein die Dosis macht, daß ein Ding kein Gift ist.
"All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; only the dose permits something not to be poisonous."
Or, more commonly
"The dose makes the poison."
That is to say, substances considered toxic are harmless in small doses, and conversely an ordinarily harmless substance can be deadly if over-consumed.

This only makes sense if that is true; we've not seen evidence for or against so I am discarding this theory.

Finally, Moneymancy. Either to borrow money from Parson or pay him not to act is unsensible (we've seen no signs that Moneymancy can overcome Duty or Loyalty, though that's not to say bribery and extortion don't work in Erfworld). If we reach into Moneymancy's less mundane nature (such as the building and upgrading of cities, razing cities or units for upkeep, etc.), there is still not much of an effect this would probably have on Parson (except perhaps to somehow remove Parson's "Special" status, which so far only one of the Stupid Meals he got when he was first summoned has made note of, and Charlie might know about since it was written by Parson in the Eyebook; or, perhaps, to demote Parson to a state of uselessness). So far, the only effect we've seen that Moneymancy can have that does not act on a same-side target is a loan of Shmuckers (or, by inductive reasoning, the effect that sacking a city has for both sides). I'm unwiling to give credence to a theory I can't back up with solid facts.

---

That's not to say that there can't be some combination of effects within the scroll, but logically speaking, there's only a certain number of effective combinations, and a certain number of likely scenarios, and most of these do not coincide.

To review, the theories for what's in the scroll to which we can give a limited amount of credence:
1. It does what Jojo says (however it does it; it could be Hat Magic but we don't know). Might possibly contain a Signamancy element (but that should not be given credence unless further details are revealed that prove me right). We still haven't seen any mechanics that point to how this could be possible (unless the combination of disciplines is the method by which it works, in which case I have not discussed the exact combination necessary and cannot), but it remains the most plausible theory.
2. Changemancy. When you think of a wizard conjuring and throwing a fireball (and that is the bare minimum I would assume Changemancy produces), one can see how that could be a targeted hostile spell. Because Parson is blocking hostile/unwanted spells with the staff, it is possible. If I'm wrong, this is an unfeasible theory and should be discarded, so we should ignore it for now. Limited credence, people.
3. Shockamancy. At worst, a volatile high explosive magick; at best, a harmless practical joke.
4. Carnymancy. Talk about a wild card; we don't even really know what it does. It's possible Jojo could be using a scroll to save his Juice, or have intended to throw the thing to Parson if he succeeded in talking him into taking it. Might still be possible that he thought he could before he noticed the staff, if he knew about the staff beforehand but didn't know it would be there when he was.
5. Sigh. Rhyme-o-mancy. Very remote possibility on the outskirts of imagination, and poetic to boot-to-the-head.

Five possibilities when you imagine that the scroll only contains a spell of a single discipline. More when you consider their potential combinations. We can't agree on whether Jojo was trying to take Parson out or simply nullify him as a threat (or, if he was just being extra nice) without more evidence. Argument over.

For the sake of consistency, I must list some theories I originally said were plausible above but which were immediately contradicted due to circumstances which also apply to other theories i discarded above (or sound reasoning I just thought of):
1. Turnamancy. In addition to the reasons it is very unlikely and only remotely plausible, I must discard it for the same reason I discarded Dittomancy - the caster who uses the scroll can understand and interpret what it could do, and specify parameters themselves. Would not want to give something like this to an enemy under any circumstances.
2. Dirtamancy. If the spell is being blocked, the target is Parson and it is considered by Parson to be potentially hostile regardless. As Parson contains no Dirtamantic elements, save for poo, it cannot be a Dirtamancy scroll.
3. Weirdomancy. Same reason Turnamancy and Dittomancy were thrown out.

This was exhaustive to write and the notions above took me almost four hours to expound upon. This is why I say some speculative notions are too grand for casual discourse.
If there are any errors above, toss me a line and I'll likely take the bait, hook, line, and sinker.
Last edited by Tachyon on Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Saladman » Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:25 pm

Tachyon wrote:Weirdomancy presumably has to do with removing logic from the behavior of otherwise logical objects or entities (for example: a curse that causes an airborne, random species of dead fish to repeatedly appear at unpredictable times in strange places and land on them or in their general vicinity, or one that causes the target to spontaneously combust if they say the words "banana phone", etc.) If we are to assume the object of Jojo's machinations is to remove some degree of rationality from Parson's existence, then this is a possible category of spell contained in the scroll. I cannot, however, see the advantage of doing this over directly casting a Carnymancy spell on Parson (something Jojo is obviously capable of). For now I will put this theory on the bottom rung of rationality.


The one glimpse we have of Weirdomancy is the text update that mentions a Weirdomancer granting, then cancelling, the Flying special to an enemy unit to cause a Fall. Conceivably flight and telekinesis is the operative principle of Weirdomancy there, but I like to think the school lets you grant or cancel practically any Special (given enough juice; possibly cancelling an enemy Chief Warlord's leadership or making a marbit a heavy unit are prohibitively expensive if they can be done at all). That's another one Parson and/or a tri-caster link could have fun with, but I agree it's not likely on Jojo's scroll.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Chance Gardener » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:13 pm

I keep seeing it posited that one of the aspects of the scroll that summoned Parson was that it contained Findamancy.

I seem to recall that that component of the scroll was supposed to be supplied by the caster casting the scroll; i.e. a Findamancer was supposed to be the one casting it.
Instead, a combination of events led to Wanda casting the scroll, which is perhaps what Marie foresaw or was hoping for?

I'm not necessarily convinced that the scroll itself actually contained any direct Findamancy in it.
I rather thought the scroll was to provide the means to summon forth the Perfect Warlord and a Findamancer was to be the guiding force directing those energies.
Seeing as how Janis was involved in the spell's creation by gathering the casters needed to create it and her goal of POE (to make war nevermore) then my 2 cents is that the scroll contained elements of Flower Power, Changeamancy, and possibly Retconjuration (likely unlikely) or Weirdomancy (more likely).

A Findamancer may have been involved simply to provide guidance (beta tester?) to the other casters so that the spell would be more easily used/controlled by a Findamancer.
Not necessarily to put Findamancy into the scroll's makeup.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Tathar » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:24 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Tathar wrote:Unless Charlie gave him a copy of the Parson dossier. Suddenly Big Bad Behind-The-Scenes More Than Perfect Warlord is Jojo's #1 enemy.


No, that wouldn't do it. Parson had nothing to do with Bea's decision. It was that Croakamancer and her darned Arkentool that caused her to jump, no matter what happened to the Coalition.

Because, after all, Charlie doesn't know that Parson came up with the trap idea. That could have been any of the Casters. Charlie can tap Thinkamancy, but if it's not written in the Klog or sent by Thinkagram, Charlie is just as in the dark as anyone else.


And Charlie can't manipulate Jojo into believing that Parson was not only involved, but the mastermind? Didn't the decrypted archons confirm at some point that Charlie is sneaky and underhanded when he wants to be?
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Tathar » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:28 pm

kreszantas wrote:The Parson, reaction or lack thereof, is another one of his lolwut moment like he did here http://www.erfworld.com/page/66/ since that was over a year ago most have may have forgotten. This is the same type of reaction he is giving now and is following the same form of logic when Jojo was questioning him. Nothing really out of the ordinary except the Sizemore intervention into what would have been a potentially bad outcome for GK had Jojo accomplished is mission.


It's been a year since then? Geez, the plot's going along more slowly than I thought...
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Tathar » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:And if you want "downright bonkers", there's always Hinduism.


There are better candidates.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Tachyon » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:05 am

Saladman wrote:
Tachyon wrote:Weirdomancy presumably has to do with removing logic from the behavior of otherwise logical objects or entities (for example: a curse that causes an airborne, random species of dead fish to repeatedly appear at unpredictable times in strange places and land on them or in their general vicinity, or one that causes the target to spontaneously combust if they say the words "banana phone", etc.) If we are to assume the object of Jojo's machinations is to remove some degree of rationality from Parson's existence, then this is a possible category of spell contained in the scroll. I cannot, however, see the advantage of doing this over directly casting a Carnymancy spell on Parson (something Jojo is obviously capable of). For now I will put this theory on the bottom rung of rationality.


The one glimpse we have of Weirdomancy is the text update that mentions a Weirdomancer granting, then cancelling, the Flying special to an enemy unit to cause a Fall. Conceivably flight and telekinesis is the operative principle of Weirdomancy there, but I like to think the school lets you grant or cancel practically any Special (given enough juice; possibly cancelling an enemy Chief Warlord's leadership or making a marbit a heavy unit are prohibitively expensive if they can be done at all). That's another one Parson and/or a tri-caster link could have fun with, but I agree it's not likely on Jojo's scroll.

So you're thinking Weirdomancy is a catch-all for enchantments, in other words; a Weirdomancer would be an Enchanter/Enchantress in more common terms.

I can see that. I don't like it since in order to imbue any target with virtually any effect, it would sort of reach into the disciplines that make magic items and golems (and zombies), as well as two out of three disciplines of Eyemancy. But, given that a lot of the disciplines sort of border each other just because they might share a common axis or element or class, I can envision it as a more limited form of enchantment that produces raw stat modifiers in the form of blessings or curses, maybe elemental weapons or other temporary specials. I still like the idea of it as a logic modifier (compare it to Turnamancy and Luckamancy to see why), just because of the name of the discipline and the fact that that is slightly less generic (every discipline seems to have a well-tailored flavor beyond its original, non-Erfworldian scope). Also, that infringes slightly less on Retconjuration, which quite absolutely modifies cause and/or effect of any given target/event.

Chance Gardener wrote:I keep seeing it posited that one of the aspects of the scroll that summoned Parson was that it contained Findamancy.

I seem to recall that that component of the scroll was supposed to be supplied by the caster casting the scroll; i.e. a Findamancer was supposed to be the one casting it.
Instead, a combination of events led to Wanda casting the scroll, which is perhaps what Marie foresaw or was hoping for?

I'm not necessarily convinced that the scroll itself actually contained any direct Findamancy in it.
I rather thought the scroll was to provide the means to summon forth the Perfect Warlord and a Findamancer was to be the guiding force directing those energies.
Seeing as how Janis was involved in the spell's creation by gathering the casters needed to create it and her goal of POE (to make war nevermore) then my 2 cents is that the scroll contained elements of Flower Power, Changeamancy, and possibly Retconjuration (likely unlikely) or Weirdomancy (more likely).

A Findamancer may have been involved simply to provide guidance (beta tester?) to the other casters so that the spell would be more easily used/controlled by a Findamancer.
Not necessarily to put Findamancy into the scroll's makeup.

Twelfth panel: http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uplo ... k1/036.jpg

The caster gives input and direction to the scroll's spell (click back a dozen pages or so to see Wanda casting the spell and talking about it). The spell is, so far as we know, entirely contained in the scroll (combination of Discipline-specific spell type and Juice to cast it), except for variables (targets, parameters, etc.); the caster's role is to fill in the blanks. If you look at my interpretation of Findamancy, this works well with that. Yes, a scroll works better with a competent caster from the discipline of the scroll in most cases, due to the fact that the specific knowledge of the discipline allows the caster to focus on getting the spell's effect optimized and worry about the little details, rather than focusing on how to cast the spell on the most basic level and possibly be disappointed with the result of its important minor details.

Basically, it's the difference between changing your car's oil yourself and having a professional do it. The components of the car remain the same in both cases. The tools come in a repair kit (the scroll). The person doing the maintenance provides the qualifications and know-how for using the tools, and knowledge about the task. There might be minimal instructions included in the repair kit (scroll) as well, depending on whether you bought a kit for DIY novices, or the barebones stuff that pros buy to keep the cost low.

At least, that's how I'm interpreting it. I'm pretty confident at the moment, but I'll be glad if we ever get confirmation.

That said, I like the potential combination of disciplines you came up with. Minus Flower Power, perhaps, since as yet Parson has succeeded at stopping exactly 0 conflicts (he has just caused massive casualties everywhere and made his side the primary target).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Sieggy » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:10 am

Tathar wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:And if you want "downright bonkers", there's always Hinduism.


There are better candidates.

Like Scientology.
The Truth Will Set You Free. But First It Will Piss You Off.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby effataigus » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:52 am

Chance Gardener wrote:I'm not necessarily convinced that the scroll itself actually contained any direct Findamancy in it.
I rather thought the scroll was to provide the means to summon forth the Perfect Warlord and a Findamancer was to be the guiding force directing those energies.
Seeing as how Janis was involved in the spell's creation by gathering the casters needed to create it and her goal of POE (to make war nevermore) then my 2 cents is that the scroll contained elements of Flower Power, Changeamancy, and possibly Retconjuration (likely unlikely) or Weirdomancy (more likely).


This seems the most likely interpretation of the various accounts to me as well. Many forumites believe that Sizemore is wrong about quad-linking being out of the question though, and that opens the possibility that there was a findamancer in the linkup (though I'd still favor the 3 caster interpretation even if he is wrong on this point... given the language used by the characters talking about the spell). Also, at least one poster believes that there were multiple thinkamancers in the link due to Janis' use of the plural ("the thinkamancers thought they knew"), though many others have pointed out that use of a plural is equally consistent with a single thinkamancer representing a group of thinkamancers.

It is worth pointing out that we have seen casters give false information before however... consider Wanda's assessment(s) of Jillian and Jack's assessment of Tramennis. That said, I can't think of any time that Sizemore has been wrong yet.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby effataigus » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:58 am

Tachyon wrote:That said, I like the potential combination of disciplines you came up with. Minus Flower Power, perhaps, since as yet Parson has succeeded at stopping exactly 0 conflicts (he has just caused massive casualties everywhere and made his side the primary target).


Oh, I don't know... right now GK has units from Unaroyal, Sofaking (or whatever their side is called), Charlescomm, Jetstone, GK, and others working together under a common banner... a rainbow coalition of sides and species. Many of their units don't have upkeep and therefore do not need to war for resources.

I can see how Janis would be backpedaling, but in some ways this sounds a lot like a hippiemancer's dream.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:07 am

effataigus wrote:I can see how Janis would be backpedaling, but in some ways this sounds a lot like a hippiemancer's dream.

Except for the whole 'fanatical adoration of Wanda' thing. Free love is supposed to be spread around to all, not concentrated in a single direction (and thus completely unrequited).
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