Book 2 – Page 65

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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby BakaGrappler » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:25 pm

Okay, the thing I noticed is that Janice has basically told Parson "It's like looking at a lit match that is going to burn the whole world down." A tiny fire in a great forest.

That is nearly exactly like what Sylvia described Parson as before when Ossomer and she were chatting. A smaller fire, but one she hoped to see burn the entire world.

Ladies and gentlemen, Parson is going to destroy the world. It is officially foreshadowed.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Hanyo » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:30 pm

splexis wrote:
kouhoutek wrote:I am with you on that, just look at her signamancy.

And she is part Voodoo Queen, on the surface a benign and helpful wise woman, but in the end she will betray you to the dark forces she serves.


"Dark forces?" Is that your description of people who who beliefs other than your own? While you are at it, why don't you just throw 'being black' into the signamancy hooper of sinistrosity?


Whoa whoa, sensitive much? It's not like Voodoo has an entirely . . . cheery and sunlit reputation in the western world, right? I can point you at a dozen news articles from the last calendar year in which voodoo practicioners were arrested for arson, accidentally killing their own offspring when trying to drive out "evil spirits", etc. If the same post had accused Marie of being a "sinister Roman Catholic" or something mainstream, I bet you wouldn't have batted an eyelash, eh?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Urf » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:40 pm

Hanyo wrote:If the same post had accused Marie of being a "sinister Roman Catholic" or something mainstream, I bet you wouldn't have batted an eyelash, eh?


Let's not build straw men and turn this entire forum into an entire miscommunication firestorm.

Lesson One. Don't equate religious practice with malevolence or beneficence. The practice of faith and religion in every expression worldwide has elements of weirdness that deserved to be discussed with respect to its location's state law or lack thereof.

Lesson Two. Don't equate religions. They are all very different and each individual processes belief and their relationship to the divine in different ways.

Lesson Three. Voodoo doesn't exist in Erfworld. Marie is a predictamancer willing to break bones in order to heal the body.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:30 pm

Guys, guys.

Let's make like a treaty. If you want a "dark and sinister" atmosphere, then Voodoo is the go-to. If you want "perverted" (either the good or the really, really not good kind), then Roman Catholicism is filling that niche.

And if you want "downright bonkers", there's always Hinduism.

There, I trust that's a fair assessment of all the world's religions, like, ever. And if you want an atmosphere of calm rational thought, true enlightenment and happiness *cough*arrogant self-satisfaction*cough*, choose Atheism.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Kreistor » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:40 pm

kouhoutek wrote:Perhaps Charlie commissioned the summoning spell, and Wanda/Marie/GMTTA stole it...that would mean "back where you belong" equals "working for Charlie".

Yes, I know that is unlikely, but it is one of many possible interpretations. Jojo was telling the truth, but probably not in a way anyone expects.


Hanyo wrote:That's a clever thought, but it's immediately disproved by the link I posted earlier. The scroll was the result of a lot of string pulling by Janis on Marie's behalf, with at least one of the casters in the link-up being mentioned by name (Hubble, the lookamancer).


The idea that Charlie wanted the Scroll created has been floating around for a very long time, but by people that seem to think Charlie is behind everything. While we don't know much about the inner Conspiracy behind the Summoning, we do have a little from Maggie. It was, to her, a gathering of Peaceful minded individuals.

Charlie is a mercenary. Peace is bad for business.

The cause doesn't fit the effect. Charlie was perfectly happy with the previous state of affairs, where he could grow his Archon army. That's what his Archons say about him: they've never heard him reveal any actual motive. No Warlords. No casters. Just Archons and absolutely privacy. Which fits perfectly with the model of Charlie of Charlie's Angels, who was based on Howard Hughes. And Hughes wasn't sane.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Urf » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:55 pm

I still think Charlie was the original Perfect Warlord.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby kouhoutek » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:18 pm

splexis wrote:
kouhoutek wrote:[quote="The.Healing.Mage]For some reason I find Marie to be really sinister.[/quote]

I am with you on that, just look at her signamancy.

And she is part Voodoo Queen, on the surface a benign and helpful wise woman, but in the end she will betray you to the dark forces she serves.[/quote][/quote]

"Dark forces?" Is that your description of people who who beliefs other than your own? While you are at it, why don't you just throw 'being black' into the signamancy hooper of sinistrosity?[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]


Save the idiotic PC crap and grow the boop up.

The concensus is that Marie is based on Marie Laveau, a Creole voudou practicioner from 17th century New Orleans.

Rob relies heavily on pop culture tropes for his characters, and voodoo is typically portrayed as sinister, the benign seeming fortune teller secretly sticking dolls with pins and making zombies with the help of her pagan gods. It is totally appropriate to speculate about which of these qualities Marie might possess.

Keep your juvenline and poorly executed race baiting away from here.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Hanyo » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:32 pm

kouhoutek wrote:Keep your juvenline and poorly executed race baiting away from here.


This +1. You nailed what was bothering me about that post, but I didn't have the balls to say it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby kouhoutek » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:33 pm

Hanyo wrote:
kouhoutek wrote:
Perhaps Charlie commissioned the summoning spell, and Wanda/Marie/GMTTA stole it...that would mean "back where you belong" equals "working for Charlie".

Yes, I know that is unlikely, but it is one of many possible interpretations. Jojo was telling the truth, but probably not in a way anyone expects.


That's a clever thought, but it's immediately disproved by the link I posted earlier. The scroll was the result of a lot of string pulling by Janis on Marie's behalf, with at least one of the casters in the link-up being mentioned by name (Hubble, the lookamancer).


Just because they had a hand in making doesn't mean they couldn't have stolen it. Marie's spider sense tingles telling her the scroll is on the way, and she enlists the help of Janis and Wanda, and between them and other unknown allies, they first get casters to agree to make it, then they divert the scroll from its intended recipient. I didn't see anything in that text update that precludes that possibility.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby kouhoutek » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:35 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Guys, guys.

Let's make like a treaty. If you want a "dark and sinister" atmosphere, then Voodoo is the go-to. If you want "perverted" (either the good or the really, really not good kind), then Roman Catholicism is filling that niche.

And if you want "downright bonkers", there's always Hinduism.

There, I trust that's a fair assessment of all the world's religions, like, ever. And if you want an atmosphere of calm rational thought, true enlightenment and happiness *cough*arrogant self-satisfaction*cough*, choose Atheism.


+1, though I think Scientology beats of Hinduism...:)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Hanyo » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:49 pm

kouhoutek wrote:Just because they had a hand in making doesn't mean they couldn't have stolen it. Marie's spider sense tingles telling her the scroll is on the way, and she enlists the help of Janis and Wanda, and between them and other unknown allies, they first get casters to agree to make it, then they divert the scroll from its intended recipient. I didn't see anything in that text update that precludes that possibility.


I don't know about that . . . let's take a look at that same update:

It must have taken thirty turns before Marie had wrapped Janis' head around the idea of a warlord who would fight against war itself, and another twenty before she could imagine one who might be good enough to win.

So they'd made it happen, without fuss, without hassles, and in secret. Janis had connections. She was listened to. Thanks to her, they pulled off the link-up without giving away the real aim. The Predictamancers all knew, of course. The Thinkamancers only sort of thought they knew. Hubble (the Lookamancer in the link-up) knew, but he was no trouble. And Janis knew.


Emphasis added is my own.

It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to make that sound like anything other than "We needed the scroll, so we created it, in secret." Wanda was also, notably, not part of the conspiracy -- she was merely chosen after the fact to receive the scroll. It's not that the idea of Charlie commissioning the scroll isn't an interesting one -- it just completely contradicts any sensible reading of that passage.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby multilis » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:58 pm

kouhoutek wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:And if you want an atmosphere of calm rational thought, true enlightenment and happiness *cough*arrogant self-satisfaction*cough*, choose Atheism.

Including: Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong, and many Nazi writings (very heavy on references to "social darwinism")... you can find nasty stuff in subsets of all sorts of groups.

Isaac Newton in great detail argued against athiests, yet he also is respected for "calm rational thought".

...

On internet forums today if you are looking for groups that automatically assume other groups or people are stupid/evil because of differing beliefs, and suggestions of need to kill, etc... you can find fanatical athiests as easy as many other types of beliefs.

...

Personally, I can't see that big a difference in actual actions of Clinton, Bush, Obama or between Cheney, Biden or Palin... I do see some including some athiests who automatically measure in vastly different ways very similar actions because of their "religion". Eg war in afghanistan, drone attacks in pakistan, military tribunals, war is about oil, starting a new war, etc. Or social programs: no child left behind / medicare. Or reaction to nuke reduction treaties... (Obama's reduction was less by % than Bush/Putin, Obama gets nobel peace prize which athiests are more likely to defend) I do not see that as "calm rational thought" and many of partisans for religions/atheists seem to do that.

Example: on egypt revolution, Biden said on public television that anyone can easily watch/find on google "he is not a dictator and should not step down". Palin meanwhile made her rounds with the T.V. evanglist show(s) giving her opinions on egypt. Reactions if you look at forums/discussions to such actions are amazingly biased based on religion/athiesm, eg the athiests completely ignore when Biden seems to say something foolish while at times very strongly wishing that Palin would be murdered. (I personally can't see that much difference between the two of them)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:04 pm

multilis wrote:
kouhoutek wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:And if you want an atmosphere of calm rational thought, true enlightenment and happiness *cough*arrogant self-satisfaction*cough*, choose Atheism.

Including: {bunch of evil guys; snip}

Isaac Newton in great detail argued against athiests, yet he also is respected for "calm rational thought".

...

On internet forums today if you are looking for groups that automatically assume other groups or people are stupid/evil because of differing beliefs, and suggestions of need to kill, etc... you can find fanatical athiests as easy as many other types of beliefs.


:lol: Oh God, oh Man, oh God, oh Man, for a second there I thought you had a defective irony detector and somehow ignored the tongue in cheek content of my post. But now I see that my effort at trolling pales in comparison to your opus, for which I salute thee.

(And an important qualification- just because it's "trolling", ie. liable to stir strong reactions in some places, doesn't mean it's not true.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby multilis » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:11 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:I thought you had a defective irony detector

I detected irony in the arrogance of the atheists, but at same time also felt your post was still strongly biased to one side.

When I google internet and stumble what actual people in each group sometimes seriously believe, I find it scary. (Some religious guys as well as some athiests, a bit of simple search and replace and you would have nearly identical to some nazi writings... just switch names of the villains )
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Markidactyl » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:37 pm

multilis wrote:
kouhoutek wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:And if you want an atmosphere of calm rational thought, true enlightenment and happiness *cough*arrogant self-satisfaction*cough*, choose Atheism.

Including: Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong, and many Nazi writings (very heavy on references to "social darwinism")... you can find nasty stuff in subsets of all sorts of groups.

Isaac Newton in great detail argued against athiests, yet he also is respected for "calm rational thought".


I'm sorry, are you implying that Social Darwinism is somehow connected to atheism? 'Cause I know you can't be implying that.

And as cool as pointing out all the evil atheists there have been (despite the fact that the nazi party wasn't actually an atheist party) you're kind of ignoring the fact that they all have totally different ideologies, from each other, and from most atheists as a whole, since atheism isn't a group. Atheism isn't the defining characteristic of any of them, and none of them are widely considered to be evil solely because they are atheists.

...

On internet forums today if you are looking for groups that automatically assume other groups or people are stupid/evil because of differing beliefs, and suggestions of need to kill, etc... you can find fanatical athiests as easy as many other types of beliefs.



Sure, you can find fanatical anything.


...

eg the athiests completely ignore when Biden seems to say something foolish while at times very strongly wishing that Palin would be murdered. (I personally can't see that much difference between the two of them)


Maybe because Biden isn't the National Representative For All Atheists, since atheism isn't a belief system, it's a specific lack of belief, and therefor not an organized group?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:43 pm

Oops. I did it again.

Markidactyl wrote:Sure, you can find fanatical anything.


And can we, on this observation, close this? I think that, some unsustainable comparisons and statements aside, this is what multilis was after saying. Basically, in every group of people you'll find some who take licence, either from some old Book or some method of Rationality or anything whatever, to believe that they have transcended all human delusion, bias and flaw.

Now let's get back to debating how totally sinister Marie the True is.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby splexis » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:00 pm

Hanyo wrote:I can point you at a dozen news articles from the last calendar year in which voodoo practicioners were arrested for arson, accidentally killing their own offspring when trying to drive out "evil spirits", etc. If the same post had accused Marie of being a "sinister Roman Catholic" or something mainstream, I bet you wouldn't have batted an eyelash, eh?


I see your piddling dozen and raise you: Pedophile priest rapists and a hierarchy interested in shielding them. Muslim theocracies depriving half the population of widely regarded human rights. The state of Israel as a specifically Jewish state with rights and privileges of non-Jewish citizens restricted.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby splexis » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:04 pm

kouhoutek wrote:with the help of her pagan gods.


Was not at all arguing that Marie was not Voudou. Was in fact call your bigoted ass out for the Judeo-Christian = Sinister interpretation. The people in my life and day-to-day culture are syncretic (Candomble, rather than Voudou). The "pagan gods" comment speaks volumes to the kouhoutek pretesting too much.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby Chance Gardener » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:11 pm

Hanyo wrote:
I can point you at a dozen news articles from the last calendar year in which voodoo practicioners were arrested for arson, accidentally killing their own offspring when trying to drive out "evil spirits", etc. If the same post had accused Marie of being a "sinister Roman Catholic" or something mainstream, I bet you wouldn't have batted an eyelash, eh?

I see your piddling dozen and raise you: Pedophile priest rapists and a hierarchy interested in shielding them. Muslim theocracies depriving half the population of widely regarded human rights. The state of Israel as a specifically Jewish state with rights and privileges of non-Jewish citizens restricted.


I think it's a lack of breastfeeding and spanking that makes them all turn out that way probably.

But that's all really a topic for another thread isn't it?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 65

Postby The.Healing.Mage » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:36 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Beeskee wrote:What is the Omega symbol on Marie's hat a reference to?

The only thing that comes to mind is B5 Psi-Cop which doesn't seem to fit. (Also it'd be worn on her chest, and the badge would be a different shape.)


Alpha and Omega. Beginning and End. First and Last letters in the Greek alphabet. Marie focuses on the future, the end, and presumably her end is Peace on Erf. Not-so-obscure reference to another effort to promote Peace on Earth by someone calling himself Alpha and Omega.


Maybe it's a pun on "the ends" as in "the ends justify the means." Not that I'm feeding my inner tinfoil hat or anything with this update.

On a complete tangent,
Spoiler: show
I just realized that the two men in Tex's life (RvB) are the Alpha... and Omega AI. Though "man" is used a little loosely. So is "life". You know, the whole AI thing sorta fudges those descriptions.
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