Book 2 – Page 68

[GaryThunder]

then he knows that they're so Lawful

How is "creating a super-powerful spell secretly so that no one in the MK knows about it to complain" Lawful?

How is "moving into the Portal Park to defend someone taht is banned from the MK" Lawful?

How is "capturing and holding, perhaps forever, a Warlord that is unaware that he is supposed to be serving them that isnt' serving them" Lawful?

And how on Erf do you draw any such conclusions about them? We've seen very little of them, and nowhere near enough to decide that they're Law-mongers. Frankly, very little that they have done is conventional. Even Isaac's playground is an attempt to advance knowledge of the universe, which is very much the antithesis of the status quo that Lawful types prefer. Change is Chaos.

Lawful doesn't just mean "the actual law as actually written down," Lawful can mean "adhering strictly to a particular code of conduct." And hopeful semi-omniscients like the Great Minds wouldn't violate MK convention by being the first to strike. Popping your head through an enemy city portal (that you practically own anyway) is hexes away from making an unprovoked first strike on a caster belonging to a side, from a neutral MK caster...They literally cannot afford to hit Jack. They're so hot on not bringing the war there, they are never ever going to be the first ones to attack. Resisting Parson's charge, they could justifiably claim self-defense, but smacking Jack for not even technically breaking the convention? Not a chance, not a chance.

People who aspire to omniscience almost always tend towards Law, I've found, because it helps unify the image of them as following some Grand Plan that all the Mere Mortals couldn't Possibly Understand. And the real thrust of my argument is that they are not the sort that would just haul off and shatter MK convention by attacking a non-neutral caster in the Magic Kingdom, which, really, do they look that sort?

[BLANDCorporatio]

Well, discounting the sudden shift in the tactical balance, the entire GMTTA argument against Parson proceeding to Jetstone has now been rendered moot. It would be almost certain that a portal room would be one of if not the most heavily defended place in a city. The mere fact that a GK unit just stuck his head out of the JS portal would be prima facia evidence that the city had fallen into GK hands, and could no longer be considered 'enemy'.

I'd disagree with that exact interpretation. Only actually seeing high-level and/or numerous guards in the portal room is evidence that the portal room is heavily guarded (or "the most heavily guarded" part of a city).

What Jack popping through the portal "proves" is only that somehow Jack got to the portal. Presumably this would require Jack to sneak past the city's outer defenses and into tunnels and so on, but it does not prove that the portalled-to city has fallen (indeed, Spacerock hasn't, yet).

The surprise of the casters is, in this regard, just that- surprise. I'm pretty sure anyone can be startled by someone sneaking from behind. Even Thinkas, when the startler sneaks in from miles away by means of teleportation.

On the subject of eyes:

There may be trends in eyes that associate either with unit quality and/or tribe.

For quite sometime now this has been the most plausible theory, and I think it's correct.

So there may be something to figure out here, but problems arise with non-tribe, captured or hired units in the wrong Sides.

Kreistor, for example, has only red eyes. And the closer one is always much bigger proportionally than the few inches would indicate for perspective. Maybe he is Charlie! Or related to Parson!

Or maybe I read Order of the Stick.

Do they make jokes there?

What "no good" could {Marie} possibly be up to? Peace on Erf? That's what she pushed Janis towards. Hardly heinous.

Not exactly, she pushed Janis into recruiting a "souljah" for the Peace on Erf goal. But that's not the point. Marie must be up to no good, the argument goes, because she just has a sinister aura around her.

Even Isaac's playground is an attempt to advance knowledge of the universe, which is very much the antithesis of the status quo that Lawful types prefer. Change is Chaos.

Hah. Maybe in DnD. Not only Change is Law, but Change is Lawful as far as our (physical) world is concerned, cultural associations between Chaos/Law and Change/Conservation be damned. Which is why most people involved with the "advance knowledge of the universe" project are neither Lawful nor Chaotic caricatures.

But back to Erfworld. If it could be proven that tGMtTA follow some set of principles, I'd call them lawful.

[Goshen]

Well, discounting the sudden shift in the tactical balance, the entire GMTTA argument against Parson proceeding to Jetstone has now been rendered moot. It would be almost certain that a portal room would be one of if not the most heavily defended place in a city. The mere fact that a GK unit just stuck his head out of the JS portal would be prima facia evidence that the city had fallen into GK hands, and could no longer be considered 'enemy'. And their objections to Parson's passage made null. If questioned on this, all Jack has to do is sneer and reply "hmph. I'm HERE, aren't I?", which would be classic Jack . . . Unless the GMTTA have some intelligence resource as yet undisclosed, they don't know WHAT the situation in JS is at the moment. Charlie might, but well, he's not talking to them, now is he . . ?

At this point, if they still want to take him, it's no longer "we're protecting the status quo", it's "he's ours to take and do with as we like". ...

Yes, exactly. Well said.

[BLANDCorporatio]

{There's no argument on convention that tGMtTA can use to delay Parson}

Yes, exactly. Well said.

Well, nope I rebutted that already.

EDIT: the Thinkas have a now obvious course of action to check the situation of Spacerock- pop one of them there through the portal. If they were to find out that the city hasn't fallen yet, would they be justified in claiming "Parson shouldn't go there"?

[Lamech]

Isn't the tower about to fall? I've gotten the impression that GK controls the courtyard and walls of the garrison, and the dungeon. When the tower falls the city should fall. So isn't this much ado about nothing?

[BLANDCorporatio]

It's about what evidence means.

The Tower (which isn't the only unconquered part of the city, since there's the Walls and wherever Trem's at), as far as tGMtTA know, is not about to fall. They don't know that. All they know is that somehow a caster from GK popped his head through the portal.

This is consistent with there never being a siege on the Spacerock tower, or it having been interrupted by Sylvia's untimely dusting. In other words, all tGMtTA know is that Jack got to the portal room. That's it, and no more.

[gazes_also]

I suspect that Marie will not be happy to see Jack. You can't fool a foolamancer and they may have some history in Faq. If she's up to no good Jack is the biggest threat to her and she may take extreme measures against him.

And who on Earth has she ever fooled? Wanda? No, she told Wanda exactly what she would get. Janis? No, everything she told Janis came true. The GMTTA? They aren't complaining.

What "no good" could she possibly be up to? Peace on Erf? That's what she pushed Janis towards. Hardly heinous.

I don't see Marie as an uninvolved neutral predictor. She is a manipulator, who set in motion the fall of Faq, she has some predictive ability but also makes 'predictions' that become self-fulfilling. We don't know if she is really on Janis's side, Janis seemed pretty shocked about the idea of going to SR with Parson and her but can't resist it because Marie 'predicts' it will happen which basically trumps all arguement.
The whole Jo-jo scam was her operation to get Parson the mysterious scroll. Only a "powerful predictamancer" could have know that Parson was coming - well we know she knew. She appears just in time to stop Parson croaking him and has Janis peace him out at which point he conveniently tosses the scroll to Parson.


Nope - Marie's a wrong un.

[Atomic]

Or maybe I read Order of the Stick.

Do they make jokes there?

The Playgrounders don't understand sarcasm... at least, not many of them. But gosh dang if they don't have some batshit-crazy theories of their own!! It's almost like the tinfoil hats have melted into their skulls after so many years of epileptic trees...

[Goshen]

{There's no argument on convention that tGMtTA can use to delay Parson}

Yes, exactly. Well said.

Well, nope I rebutted that already.

EDIT: the Thinkas have a now obvious course of action to check the situation of Spacerock- pop one of them there through the portal. If they were to find out that the city hasn't fallen yet, would they be justified in claiming "Parson shouldn't go there"?

Hmmm. I must rebut your rebuttal with my buttocks! While you are right that Jack is had to the portal does not precisely PROVE that GK controls the portal room, but no other conclusion is likely. And yes, the GTTMA definitely needs to check out the situation quickly. Suddenly. Uncomfortable for them, to be sure.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Hmmm. I must rebut your rebuttal with my buttocks! While you are right that Jack is had to the portal does not precisely PROVE that GK controls the portal room, but no other conclusion is likely.

"GK owns Spacerock" is a likely conclusion, but the evidence for it is, if you will, circumstantial. Not the kind of thing you'd risk a supposed law* of the land over. Can tGMtTA reasonably doubt Spacerock being in the ownership of GK?

My guess is yes, and like certain high-profile cases back in Stupidworld have proven, "what likely happened" isn't enough to get a conviction in court. Some things, like putting someone on deathrow or a bunch of people acquiescing to what may be a violation of whatever they call custom in their parts, may need a conclusion to be established beyond reasonable doubt, or some such standard that's stronger than "most likely".

*: the "you shall not pass {thorugh MK on way to hostile cities}" custom has an admittedly fuzzy status. It's not clear whether it's written down somewhere as law or treaty, for example. Nonetheless, it's a BIG DEAL as far as casters are concerned. Sizemore is afraid of breaking it, Janis had the hibbie-jibbies too, so do the GMtTA ...

EDIT:

And ok, I can't help but point out-

Hmmm. I must rebut your rebuttal with my buttocks!

Uhm, does that mean you're talking out of your ass?

j/k. C'mon, it was an obvious one.

[Goshen]

*: the "you shall not pass {thorugh MK on way to hostile cities}" custom has an admittedly fuzzy status. It's not clear whether it's written down somewhere as law or treaty, for example. Nonetheless, it's a BIG DEAL as far as casters are concerned. Sizemore is afraid of breaking it, Janis had the hibbie-jibbies too, so do the GMtTA ...

And well they should! The MK Survives because the individual casters there all benefit having a safe place to study and the final escape route if their side should fall. The casters who are attached to particular sides can successfully walk a moral tightrope on the grounds than improving their abilities is good for their own side. When the MK becomes a conduit for invasion, all that falls apart. The specific needs of each individual side will obligate their own casters to assist, and their enemy casters to resist....

[Goshen]

And ok, I can't help but point out-

Hmmm. I must rebut your rebuttal with my buttocks!

Uhm, does that mean you're talking out of your ass?

Just being cheeky.

j/k. C'mon, it was an obvious one.

No!

[King Mir]

They're master class thinkamancers. Surely they can look up the G strings at Spacerock to see if it's still enemy controlled.

Also, it's possible that a side is only capable of having one portal to the Magic Kingdom -- in their capital. So once Spacerock is conquered, it's portal will shut down.

[WaterMonkey314]

They're master class thinkamancers. Surely they can look up the G strings at Spacerock to see if it's still enemy controlled.

Also, it's possible that a side is only capable of having one portal to the Magic Kingdom -- in their capital. So once Spacerock is conquered, it's portal will shut down.

This would be rather awkward if Jack is still in there. Would he get chopped in half?

[tinfoil] Jojo time! Can he put Jack back together?! [/tinfoil]

[Beeskee]

GMTTA should realize that GK controls at least the Portal room. Jack didn't sprint through in a hurry, he's unconcernedly poking his head through and cracking jokes. That means his back is safe. If he was about to be stabbed in the butt by Jetstone forces, he would probably have gone through all the way, to where non-casters couldn't reach him.

[Lamech]

They're master class thinkamancers. Surely they can look up the G strings at Spacerock to see if it's still enemy controlled.

Also, it's possible that a side is only capable of having one portal to the Magic Kingdom -- in their capital. So once Spacerock is conquered, it's portal will shut down.

This would be rather awkward if Jack is still in there. Would he get chopped in half?

[tinfoil] Jojo time! Can he put Jack back together?! [/tinfoil]

Wait! The pliers could do just that. And since that is a common carnytrick in stupid world, it means the pliers are carnymancy! Quick we must tell the interwebz!

[BLANDCorporatio]

{Bla bla bla}

Oi, you! Get yer ass back to GMing that "The Arkentool War" game you're running

Annie le Nox is still waiting for you to confirm the flawless Trockaderos victory over the Yellow Dwagons.

Just being cheeky.

*insert Hat-tip emoticon here*

[The.Healing.Mage]

You know what we need to see? Jack in combat again. The closest he ever came was fleeing the Battle of the Pass (aka the Battle of 12 Transylvito Warlords), screening Stanley. The closest he came recently was the sortie to capture Ossomer where he got shot up. But I really, REALLY want to see Jack engage in direct combat. In my mind's eye it looks like the scene from X-Men: First Class where Azazel goes to town on the soldiers, or

Spoiler: show

in the final battle when he duels Beast.

[fehler]

Jack is quoting Parson, I think, when he says "sometimes something very simple". Where is this line from?

[The.Healing.Mage]

Jack is quoting Parson, I think, when he says "sometimes something very simple". Where is this line from?

I looked briefly. I think you're conflating it with Parson's line to Maggie "We make plans. Occasionally they even work." (Which admittedly was about Jack.) Parson and Jack have only had a couple of conversations on-screen. I think he was more talking to himself in the style of PGLH, as he did when he made up the plan that Parson's "food fight"/airdrop replaced. Both times he tried to frame the problem as Parson would have, and both times he started talking out loud to himself. This made sense to us readers, but propagated the impression to everyone else present that Jack is batboop crazy. The Joker costume helps, too.