Book 2 – Page 69

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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Kreistor » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:08 am

0beron wrote:we can assume Lloyd probably has most of his juice remaining, which WOULD make him dangerous against the Archons


Actually, I just reviewed the text pages. Lloyd was involved in the discussions over Ace's plan, and is going to be in the Max Stack against the Archons to "double the Unipegataurs", whatever that means. So, yeah, he's saving his Juice, but he'll be a definite target not on the Tower. I expect Pierce in that assault, too, in order to keep the King alive. Ace will want to go... but I'm not certain what he could do except soak damage. The Hat-a-mancer is almost certainly going to be firing the remaining air defenses.

and it would continue to guard the bridge even if flying units attempted to take the bridge, because those are it's orders.


It's a matter of definition. "Hold the bridge" means to "keep in our Side's control". They can't obey that order. You think they should stand and die, like robots.

I disagree.

There are some things that force a non-Leadership unit's activity. But not everything is. Remember that Stanley was once a Piker. If a unit could never make a decision, Stanley could not have stood out and been given the Leadership special. There must be some freedom of thought and action in order for Stanley's rise to make sense.

What to do when you can't achieve your orders has to be one of those, because any time your orders do apply, you don't get to choose much.

Either way, this kind of discussion on Duty and unit behavior isn't really what the thread is about, so I'll say no more on it here.


Who says that this thread isn't about everything we choose to discuss. No one has moderated out anything that I have ever seen here.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:43 am

Its just a personal preference I suppose, I don't like getting off track when a thread has been designated to have a specific topic as apposed to a general discussion thread. As a reader, I find it frustrating to have to sort my way through off-topic material, so I try to avoid creating it myself, that's all.

At any rate, I made another thread on this topic because its an interesting and complex issue: Orders and Duty Debate
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby drachefly » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:34 pm

Kreistor wrote:
and it would continue to guard the bridge even if flying units attempted to take the bridge, because those are it's orders.


It's a matter of definition. "Hold the bridge" means to "keep in our Side's control". They can't obey that order. You think they should stand and die, like robots.

I disagree.


No. It was 'would', not 'should'. Big difference.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:31 pm

I must remind that when Hamster ordered the yellows to attack the atrium, Trems had to explicitly order the infantry there to evacutate. Untill then they were more than happy to stay there

From this very update it is confirmed that even a warlord will suicidally follow his last orders even if it means providing a free target to the enemy whitout any chance of counter-attacking.

Evacute the Atrium? Duke?
Not until we have orders! Stand firm!


And again this was in a situation with warlords. Why would simple almost-mindless erfworld infantry be more capable of improvising orders on their own?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Oberon » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:10 pm

0beron wrote:
civilphil wrote:What about the potential symbolism in that we didn't get shown Artemis's face at all on this page?

That is VERY interesting, I noticed it from an aesthetic perspective but didn't think about it from a plot perspective...is it possible she wasn't croaked? Maybe she's only incapacitated...?

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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:22 pm

Oberon wrote:People will only be able to tell us apart by looking at the post count. :x

That's not true at all. If an "oberon" is politely agreeing with someone, we'll know it couldn't be you. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Kreistor » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:26 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:I must remind that when Hamster ordered the yellows to attack the atrium, Trems had to explicitly order the infantry there to evacutate. Untill then they were more than happy to stay there

From this very update it is confirmed that even a warlord will suicidally follow his last orders even if it means providing a free target to the enemy whitout any chance of counter-attacking.

Evacute the Atrium? Duke?
Not until we have orders! Stand firm!


And again this was in a situation with warlords. Why would simple almost-mindless erfworld infantry be more capable of improvising orders on their own?


The fact that someone even asked the question meant that the Duke had a choice to make. That he chooses to stand until he has Orders does not mean that every Warlord would do the same. If all Erfworlders know that Orders cannot be disobeyed, he wouldn't even ask the question.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-04-21.jpg

Units, many, refusing orders. I do not accept a hair-splitting claim that it makes a difference that the Warlord in the Atrium is in battle, but the Moneymancer Ben is not makes any kind of difference.


http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F084a.jpg

Text update describing Obedience. "All Units are subject to Natural Thinkamancies: Obedience, Loyalty. Duty, and others. Obedience -- Units are compelled to obey orders. Some may disobey if the order goes against higher orders or their Ruler's best interest. Disobedience may cause a unit to disband."

Note the following: "against ... their Ruler's best interest." This is where the semantics of what "Hold the Bridge" matters. A Unit that cannot hold the bridge against unexpected attackers is permitted to consider the needs of his Ruler, and the words of Obedience indicate that being a Warlord is not required to make the decision that if you can't hold, the Ruler is better off with a living Piker than a corpse. Sometimes he's wrong, and the Unit may be disbanded. That part wouldn't be there if Units never judged their Ruler's best interests correctly.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Angband » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:03 am

Kreistor wrote:There are some things that force a non-Leadership unit's activity. But not everything is. Remember that Stanley was once a Piker. If a unit could never make a decision, Stanley could not have stood out and been given the Leadership special. There must be some freedom of thought and action in order for Stanley's rise to make sense.


Not true. Two identical soldiers get three kills. One of them *must* have more kills than the other. If you needed to promote a soldier to a leadership position, you would probably pick the one with 2 or 3 kills, right?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Kreistor » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:51 pm

Angband wrote:
Kreistor wrote:There are some things that force a non-Leadership unit's activity. But not everything is. Remember that Stanley was once a Piker. If a unit could never make a decision, Stanley could not have stood out and been given the Leadership special. There must be some freedom of thought and action in order for Stanley's rise to make sense.


Not true. Two identical soldiers get three kills. One of them *must* have more kills than the other. If you needed to promote a soldier to a leadership position, you would probably pick the one with 2 or 3 kills, right?


No. It's more expensive to raise an Infantryman to Warlord than to pop a Warlord. Somehow, you have got to stand out to rate that expense. Perhaps Stanley simply became brutally high level. But I'm guessing that it took some exceptional evidence that he was capable of leading.

We see ambitious Stanley... Stanley raised beyond his capabilities. But Stanley shone once. He was raised to Warlord, and raised again to Chief Warlord, and then to Heir. He excelled, once.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:59 pm

Kreistor wrote:We see ambitious Stanley... Stanley raised beyond his capabilities. But Stanley shone once. He was raised to Warlord, and raised again to Chief Warlord, and then to Heir. He excelled, once.

I disagree with the assumption that he excelled. It's just as plausible that Stanley simply got lucky and never happened to get croaked. After being in enough conflicts, he leveled. He then, through sheer luck, got attuned, and was able to level faster and more effectively. It seems standard practice to place your highest-level non-caster as Chief Warlord just for the sake of the bonus. Transylvito is shown to be a meritocracy, and it was emphasized that they were the exception.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Housellama » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:10 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
Kreistor wrote:We see ambitious Stanley... Stanley raised beyond his capabilities. But Stanley shone once. He was raised to Warlord, and raised again to Chief Warlord, and then to Heir. He excelled, once.

I disagree with the assumption that he excelled. It's just as plausible that Stanley simply got lucky and never happened to get croaked. After being in enough conflicts, he leveled. He then, through sheer luck, got attuned, and was able to level faster and more effectively. It seems standard practice to place your highest-level non-caster as Chief Warlord just for the sake of the bonus. Transylvito is shown to be a meritocracy, and it was emphasized that they were the exception.


/agree. Stanley has always been portrayed as a lucky idiot with rare moments of genius. He has taken the stance that he has been favored by the Titans and given his history, I can't really disagree. Wanda references the Tri-Lookamancer as the most devious thing Stanley has ever done, and she seems impressed. But that's the obvious exception to the rule. However, aside from his occasional moments, most of his success that we have been witness to has been based mostly on luck. Example: the sacking of FAQ. He didn't have nearly enough Dwagons starting out. But he FOUND lots. More than he should have. Another example: Finding and attuning the Arkenhammer. He was just a Piker. It could have been anyone. But it was him. The rest of his success has been due to other people. One could argue that he's good at delegating, but that's not really it. Most of the time, the other people succeed IN SPITE of Stanley. Instead, let us say that Stanley inspires loyalty. Why, I have no idea. People have no real REASON to be loyal to him, but they are. Wanda calls it Fate. That's as good a reason as any.

Stanley says he's favored by the Titans. So far, that seems to be the case. He's succeeded despite himself.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Kreistor » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:05 pm

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F115.jpg

See Caesar wrecked by Stanley.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F116.jpg

See Stanley unscathed. He is entirely undamaged. Not even a scratch.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F005.jpg

See Stanley's mind boggled by Strategy.

This is the difference between a Warlord and a Ruler -- one job requires Tactics and the other requires Strategy.

Selection of goals, motivations, unit production, support... these are all Strategic planning. At these, Stanley does not excel. His mind boggles. Everything a Ruler does in Erfworld is Strategic. They do not lead stacks, or make battlefield decisions. Stanley does not do that to his Warlords. Queen Jillian does, but as she states, her Side is too small for her not to, currently.

Beating the sludge out of people... that's Tactics, both small stack and multi-stack armies. I cannot recall any evidence that Stanley has never had a very good grasp of Tactics.

Choosing to attack FAQ without any scouting? That's poor Strategy. Beating an entire Side, fully loaded with Casters, in a single Turn with a single force of dwagons? That takes more than luck. That takes Tactics.

But you are assuming that because he is bad at Strategy that he is also bad at Tactics. I see absolutely no evidence of this in the comic. Nobody is so Lucky that he could trash a heavily defended Chief Warlord and come away unscathed without knowing exactly what he is doing. He constructed his stack the way he needed to in order to win. You don't see it, because he issues no orders. A good Warlord doesn't need to speak orders... which makes Stanley a good Warlord... maybe even the best ever produced by Erfworld. Underestimate him at your own risk.

Stanley has been promoted beyond his capacity, into a position for which he was never qualified. It happens to everyone, eventually. But assuming that anyone that is mediocre in their current job must have been lucky in their previous is simply unsupportable.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:19 pm

Kreistor wrote:Beating the sludge out of people... that's Tactics, both small unit and large. I cannot recall any evidence that Stanley has never had a very good grasp of Tactics.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F113.jpg

I don't see evidence of good tactics on Stanley's part - just on Caesar's. Jillian is doubtful that Transylvito can even win the encounter, but Caesar's tactics put their weaker units on equal footing. Stanley's tactics in this encounter should have been to concentrate all of his attacks on the warlords. Once they drop, the bats get cleaned up. 30 dwagons + knights + Stanley against Caesar would drop their bonuses rapidly.

Stanley simply relies on overwhelming firepower to win the day every time. 'Brute Force' may be an effective tactic as long as you're stronger than your opponent, but it doesn't require any skill. Area of Effect attacks when you're getting swarmed are 'tactics 101'.

Stanley doesn't even grasp the tactical implications of attacking and withdrawing (Parson's dwagon strategy from earlier), since his units wouldn't level. Higher level = more firepower, which is all he relies on to win.

Stanley has basic tactical knowledge, plus huge level and artifact bonuses. That's enough to carry him through most encounters, even if he doesn't really know what he's doing.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:52 pm

MarbitChow wrote:I don't see evidence of good tactics on Stanley's part - just on Caesar's. Jillian is doubtful that Transylvito can even win the encounter, but Caesar's tactics put their weaker units on equal footing.

Wait a moment, since when is "I mindlessly charge swinging the biggest weapon I can find" Jillian anything close to a good commander? Of course she was doubtfull, because all she could see was "Hur Stanley has bigger units, we only have squishy bats how do we win Dur?"

MarbitChow wrote: Stanley's tactics in this encounter should have been to concentrate all of his attacks on the warlords. Once they drop, the bats get cleaned up. 30 dwagons + knights + Stanley against Caesar would drop their bonuses rapidly.

Easy to say, but with hundreds of bats on Transylvito's side, they simply had a lot more cannon fodder than Stanley's fleet could chew trough. Remember, dwagon's breath isn't a pure area of effect. Each breath can only affect a limited number of targets. With literal clouds of bats covering the vampire warlords, focus firing was not an option.

MarbitChow wrote:Stanley simply relies on overwhelming firepower to win the day every time. 'Brute Force' may be an effective tactic as long as you're stronger than your opponent, but it doesn't require any skill. Area of Effect attacks when you're getting swarmed are 'tactics 101'.

Again, remember Artemis battle. Area of effect have number limits in Erfworld. Stanley was outnumbered and outgunned, so punching out from that situation was the best decision. And for the record, we do see the dwagons breathing down bats, but they were just too many, specially when backed up by all those warlords.

MarbitChow wrote:Stanley doesn't even grasp the tactical implications of attacking and withdrawing (Parson's dwagon strategy from earlier), since his units wouldn't level. Higher level = more firepower, which is all he relies on to win.


Well that's how he rose to power. Like discussed on the last posts, he was promoted to warlord for some reason, very probably leveling up. Altough upgrading a lv1 infantry to a lv1 warlord may be an horrible deal, promoting a lv10 piker to a lv 10 warlord is probably an excellent choice, because leveling up a warlord from lv1 to 10 is a pain in the ass, but the combat bonus it provides are godly.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:27 pm

Kreistor wrote:Beating the sludge out of people... that's Tactics, both small stack and multi-stack armies. I cannot recall any evidence that Stanley has never had a very good grasp of Tactics.




Wanda Firebaugh in the cast of characters back on the giant wrote:"I did not say it was a stupid idea, Lord. But the strategic advantage of equipping infantry with scary hand puppets is lost on me."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby sleepymancer » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:44 am

Kreistor wrote:Stanley has been promoted beyond his capacity, into a position for which he was never qualified. It happens to everyone, eventually. But assuming that anyone that is mediocre in their current job must have been lucky in their previous is simply unsupportable.


'Peter's principle', I believe it is called, which states basically that competent people will be promoted until they reach a position where they are incompetent. at which point they will stay there - indefinitely if the job they are in has the admin-equivalent of tenure. Of course, sooner or later they die/retire and somebody else gets to fill the void. Until that moment, yes, Stanley the Tool is a key example.

So should we just rename him Peter the Appliance?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby sleepymancer » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:47 am

╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
Wanda Firebaugh in the cast of characters back on the giant wrote:"I did not say it was a stupid idea, Lord. But the strategic advantage of equipping infantry with scary hand puppets is lost on me."


In a world with dance-fighting, that proposal (which I assume was a hat tip to Elan) could be effective - especially if they were made by a Dollamancer.

Sorry to double post. this just occurred as soon I'd clicked send on the last.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:15 am

Kreistor wrote:It happens to everyone, eventually. But assuming that anyone that is mediocre in their current job must have been lucky in their previous is simply unsupportable.

You're right: making that assumption for ANYONE is unsupportable. Making it for Stanley is quite plausible.
Look, I'm not saying that Stanley isn't good in a fight. He's great - levels, dwagon mount and the artifact make him a powerhouse.
But I haven't seen any evidence that his knowledge of tactics extends beyond "grab the strongest units you've got and smash them against the strongest units they've got, and hope you win."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Beeskee » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:27 am

Stanley managed to not only survive as a piker, but stand out enough to get promoted to warlord. That's gotta say something about him. I agree, tactically he's a moron with the rare flash of insight and brilliance such as linking the casters. That probably went something along the lines of "Hey, you guys are all Eyemancers? Link up." :D

(If Erfworld had candy, I would have guessed that he got the idea from a gum wrapper.)

All he seems to know is brute force, but he does know that, and he performs it well. I'm sure history has plenty of examples of generals who foobar'd a battle they had the greater numbers of soldiers in.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby sleepymancer » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:09 pm

if all you have is an 'hammer, then all your problems begin to look arkennailed?
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