Book 2 – Page 69

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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Swodaems » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:42 pm

Kreistor wrote:I could have done without this page. The art is definitely cool, it doesn't convey any new information. We knew Slately was having his equipment enhanced. We knew they suspected the Tower would fall. It shows that in making these things, the casters don't use spell words. which is a little bit of Mechanics, but hardly worth the page. And we knew that Decrypted believe themselves self-aware.

If this page was omitted, no one would notice the loss.


Actually, there exists one group of people who would notice the loss: The people who don't read the text updates. Thus far, most of the development on the issues you are talking about has happened in those text updates. Those people who purely read the comic will have no idea of Ossomer's inner turmoil, of Slately's plans to enter the airspace, or of the fact that the King's gear is being improved. All of these things need to be expounded upon if they are to be used anytime soon.

Further more, there is actual advancement of those threads happening here. We're getting a little knowledge about what exactly is going into the King's gear and we're seeing Ossomer start to act on the issues that he has with being part of Gobwin Knob.

Also, I would like to say that the carpet that Ossomer is riding can roll out flat and can probably carry alot of weight. Anyone want to bet on him offering to rescue some units from the tower, possibly offering them whatever protection he can give against being executed? Whoever decided to take him up on the offer wouldn't even have to climb over the railing to get to him considering the state it's in.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby sleepymancer » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:04 pm

On the subject of this page being extraneous due to the text updates, it should be recalled that the text-updates are the additional material. The comic itself is - and must be - entirely self-contained. The text updates are just extra. Having said that, I think this one actually moved everything (comic and texts) onwards a step. I guess if you are reading this only for seeing the scores, combat units and battle tactics, then it might seem a little slow. Rather than a delicately choreographed the gut-wrenching personal drama of complex characters pitted against the turbulent course of events. But then again, whether it be platonic, familial, sexual, repressed or indeed pure philosophy, love is a battlefield.

Does it come across how much I love this comic??

Oh, and as regards the parallel being nosed between Slately and Boba Fett, all i can say to that is: Parson is my Sarlak.

Which I want on a t-shirt :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Kreistor » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:13 pm

elrolfe wrote:
Kreistor wrote:If this page was omitted, no one would notice the loss.


You could always create your own webcomic. Then you could dole out the details at a pace that you consider acceptable. But this is Rob's story. Please let him tell it the way that he wants.

Rob, the story is EXCELLENT!! And Xin, your artwork is STUNNING!! Thank you both for the effort and dedication you're putting into this project!


A was friends with a restauranteur once. He and I sat down and talked frequently, and one day he talked about the industry. He said Canadians (this was in Ottawa Canada) were a big problem for him. They don't complain. A disatisfied Canadian will politely eat the meal, no matter how bad, say it was fine, and walk out to never return, instead of complaining, pointing out a problem in the kitchen that will go unsolved until someone more impolite discovers it. Meanwhile, the restaurant dies a slow death as no one can figure out while it's not doing well. Americans that he knew said that was much less frequent, because Americans expect things to be right, and will loudly declare what the problem was.

Do you really think that Rob and Xoin only want to hear "Oh, it's excellent!" No, they want to hear why people STOP reading. So that they can fix it.

Nothing gets better if no one criticizes.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Housellama » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:57 pm

Kreistor wrote:Nothing gets better if no one criticizes.


Oh, I absolutely agree with you!

When I find something to criticize in their work, I'll speak up.

Edit: I don't mean to sound snide. I believe in pointing out things that I don't agree with, or imperfections in an otherwise great work so that it can become even better. I have simply found nothing to complain about in Rob's work. When/if I do, I will politely point it out to him in private. I will also offer several suggestions for improvement. And then I will continue to read the comic. If things don't improve after a time, I'll stop reading the comic. I won't complain about it on the forums. I will offer constructive criticism in a way that I have found to be the most productive, and if I am still dissatisfied with what I am receiving, I will simply stop partaking.

So far, there's nothing that I can suggest for Rob to improve on. Oh, there are little things that I don't agree with, but that's way different from errors to correct. Rob is telling a story. It's his story to tell, and I have to trust that he will tell it well. Either he's a good storyteller, or he isn't. Either way, it's HIS story, and no one else can tell it. If I don't LIKE the way he tells it, I can stop listening, but MAYBE aside from little things here and there, I can't change the way he tells stories. Either I like it or I don't. I like it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby name lips » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:07 pm

I'm actually a bit disappointed in this update, and you'll find I say that very rarely.

We saw more of Slately acting ruthless and determined, but we've already seen that and knew it was happening.

We saw the casters enhancing all Slately's gear, but we already knew that was happening.

We saw Ossimer's loyalty to Wanda faltering with the horrors of working for a dishonorable side, but we've seen that before.

Ossimer told us what we already knew, about Artemis' attack, but we already knew that (though I suppose in the final print if the text updates are cut, this would be new info)

We heard a bit more of Slately's evacuation plan... but all in all there wasn't a lot of development here, either in plot OR characters. Usually when people accuse a strip or text update of being "filler" it's because it doesn't progress the plot, but it usually DOES progress characterization. I don't really feel like this strip did either.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:09 pm

"Three Quiet"? I'm guessing that's worse than "too quiet".
Read, like there won't be a movie
Game, like the die rolls don't matter
Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
. . . . . . Dr Pepper
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . .4
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby zuche » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:18 pm

Kreistor wrote:Nothing gets better if no one criticizes.


It seems the irony of your statement is lost on you. Let me make it clearer: learn how to offer useful criticism. People have already demonstrated why your complaint was ill-founded. The writer has expressed his intention that the text-only entries should not be required reading for those who are only interested in the comic pages. This page covers events that haven't shown up on those pages previously. For those of us that have read along with those, it shows where those side events are moving back toward the main event.

Are you telling me you know why Pierce was sent topside, where he'll be of no aid to the chief warlord? Are Ossomer's words no more than an echo of his ruminations on a tile, or do they show character? Can you tell me for certain if they redefine the circumstances of Artemis' death so that she might be an instrument of fate, rather than just a victim of it?

You don't know the answer to these questions. Guesswork is a poor foundation for criticism. It's like complaining that a particular spice will add nothing to a dish you haven't even tasted yet, because it's still being prepared!

One other thing: Your friend's complaint about politely eating Canadians just shows he hasn't learned how to read his patrons. If you won't notice a problem until someone is loud and confrontational, chances are you won't listen anyway--not that the loud customer is usually saying anything worth hearing anyway. In nearly every case, what they're really saying is, "I don't care how much I'm annoying everyone else in this restaurant; I just want attention."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Dr Pepper » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:22 pm

BanzaiJoe wrote:Forgive my ignorance. Who is the dude in panel 3 and 4 with the green jacket and the martini? He's not a "party like the end of times" mancer, is he?


Benjamin Franklin Pierce, aka "Hawkeye", one of the surgeons from MASH. He's a healamancer. He carries a drink because in the show, Pierce had his own still in his tent and was always drinking when he wasn't patching up casualties.
Read, like there won't be a movie
Game, like the die rolls don't matter
Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
. . . . . . Dr Pepper
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . .4
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:35 pm

zuche wrote:People have already demonstrated why your complaint was ill-founded.


No, they didn't; routine praise is meaningless in terms of both praise and argument of quality. In plainer English, if you always think Erfworld pages are great, no surprise you'll disagree with Kreistor. Also, you'd be wrong in general (nothing, including Erfworld, is 100% great).

On this particular occasion, I'd disagree with Kreistor's point about pacing. The story does slow down on Parson's progress in the MK, yes, but we probably need this page to bring the other part of the story up to speed, so to speak.

But I just must defend Kreistor here, because there's a popular knee-jerk reaction that criticism is bad, or made with ill-intentions. In the VAST majority of cases, it's not. And don't y'all worry, Rob's a grownup, he can handle some occasional smack from forum-dwelling pseudonyms.

For example, the "Where's your webcomic" line used by some poster on the previous page is notoriously inane. Not only chefs can judge food; you can judge works of art without being a creative artist yourself etc.

zuche wrote:You don't know the answer to these questions. Guesswork is a poor foundation for criticism. It's like complaining that a particular spice will add nothing to a dish you haven't even tasted yet, because it's still being prepared!


Opinions on something can change as it progresses. This does not make intermediary opinions any less valid. "I call it how I see it now" is perfectly cromulent criticism, as evidenced by the fact that any work that develops in serial form DOES have to contend with critical opinion, be it from amateurs like us or professionals. So my guess is that you expect criticism to work differently for Erfworld than it does from everything else. Nope.

PS:

Kreistor wrote:Nothing gets better if no one criticizes.


OTOH, you shouldn't get the idea that Rob listens to what you, Kreistor, says- unless Rob knows you by your real name and has reason to respect your artistic or editorial input. This is not to say that you shouldn't voice criticism (see above), this is to say that your opinion is not entitled editorial priviliges over the comic.

PPS: though, you probably know that yourself. Pretend I'm still speaking to whoever thinks forumites criticising are after hijacking the story flow to make it fit their wonky notions of esthetics.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby zuche » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:41 pm

Yes, BlandCorporation, they did. It had nothing to do with praise. There was more to the page than he acknowledged, and his criticism is based on incomplete information. That makes for poor criticism.

Sometimes you need to sit down and wait for the dish to be served to you. That has nothing to do with the maturity of the cook.

name lips wrote:We saw Ossimer's loyalty to Wanda faltering with the horrors of working for a dishonorable side, but we've seen that before.


Ignoring the fact that "we already knew all this," applies only to people who read text pages, which are "not on the test", I have to single out this point.

We're not looking at a failing of loyalty here. We're looking at a demonstration of values. Up until now, all we've seen from Ossomer has been despondence and disillusionment. His feelings have reflected Artemis' last moments and her despairing final questions.

Up until now, we haven't seen him assert what he, as a person, still values. Whether or not he can provide anything more than lip service to those values remains to be seen, but his reaction to that death mean more than his earlier tile-gazing. In the tile, he sought meaning...and waited passively. In the sacrifice, will he find the inspiration to finally act?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:46 pm

zuche wrote:Sometimes you need to sit down and wait for the dish to be served to you. That has nothing to do with the maturity of the cook.


The analogy fails in that a dish is delivered in a timely fashion (more than an hour? I'm outta here), ONCE. Webcomics, television series, multi-film spanning epics, neverending sequences of books- all of these things that go on and on (may go on forever, in principle) must and routinely do contend with criticism at every step of the way. Sorry, that's the way it works.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Anca » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:12 pm

--Is that red around Ossommer's eyes? Poor man.

This page seems to have covered everything most important from the text updates referenced. It's a good job.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby EarwaxRock » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:01 pm

Also, I forgot to mention:

Slately wrote:Caution won't save me.


This is most definitely my favorite thing Slately has ever said. Especially coming from a king who until recently was delegating all the important decisions to others and being pretty vegetative himself (as evidenced by his current signamancy), that's a pretty bold statement. Maybe there's some kingly stature there after all.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Kreistor » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:41 pm

zuche wrote:Are you telling me you know why Pierce was sent topside, where he'll be of no aid to the chief warlord?


No, but we knew from previous pages (not Text) where he was and what he was trying to make for Slately. Not new info.

Are Ossomer's words no more than an echo of his ruminations on a tile, or do they show character?


It's character he showed in previous pages, discussing honor with Tramennis and Slately. Again, not new.

Can you tell me for certain if they redefine the circumstances of Artemis' death so that she might be an instrument of fate, rather than just a victim of it?


Does the page do anything of the sort? Is that what you think it says? You're reading a lot into one shot of Artemis getting headshot, and another of her corpse. I can't tell you anything for certain about Artemis in this page, because she doesn't say or do anything.

You don't know the answer to these questions.


Because the page doesn't answer them. And THAT is the point. If the page had included such information, it might have been worth drawing.

Guesswork is a poor foundation for criticism.


What on Erf did I "guess" at? I said, "There's nothing new here. It didn't need to be written." All you've provided are questions that the page did not answer, providing more evidence that it added nothing to the story. I'm not sure what you think you have proven, but it certainly wasn't that I had guesswork as a foundation.. You would need to prove that I guessed at something to validate that accusation.

Your friend's complaint about politely eating Canadians just shows he hasn't learned how to read his patrons.


No, he didn't. Instead, he wandered around the floor and talked to people at their tables, asking how everything was. He never learned to read them, because he made them tell him if things went wrong.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby civilphil » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:54 pm

I don't suppose we can leave this whole argument alone and get back to discussing OTHER things about the new page?

How about that font for "Three Quiet"? Loved it.

What about the potential symbolism in that we didn't get shown Artemis's face at all on this page?

Did anyone else notice that after every BOOM there are more and more cracks on the wall behind the casters? Great attention to detail Xin!



P.S. Don't forget the #1 rule of these forums:

DON'T BE A D#%@
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Beeskee » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:55 pm

It would be funny if Slately stumbled, Ossomer caught him and pulled him to safety, and then said "Oh no, you have captured me! Guess I'll have to turn to Jetstone now."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Goshen » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:51 pm

Kreistor wrote:
zuche wrote: Your friend's complaint about politely eating Canadians just shows he hasn't learned how to read his patrons.

It is always important to be polite when one eats a Canadian. They are generally well mannered people and are entitled to be consumed with some grace.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Goshen » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:00 pm

I really like this update, because of the drama and the emotion it showed. most notably the confrontation between Ossomer and Slatly as he tries to convince his father that he's still alive, not just some puppet. It's heart wrenching, and a testament to Rob's good writing that we really do not know Ossomer's fate.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Lamech » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:01 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Kreistor wrote:If this page was omitted, no one would notice the loss.

...
Nothing gets better if no one criticizes.

Right. Except this page contains a bunch of information: Jetstone's counter-attack on the siege has failed. The casters are improving the king's gear. They plan to leave the tower by air. Ossomer is still trying to be a good noble warlord, and cares about his father. No being told in text updates doesn't count. Hence, your claims are faulty. If you claimed that the text updates have trouble being interesting because they can't affect the story that would be a valid. But right now its the equivilant of "Jack's costume really needs a bow tie and eight-ball."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Goshen » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:23 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:"Three Quiet"? I'm guessing that's worse than "too quiet".
At least 50% worse, I imagine!
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