Book 2 - Text Updates 053

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Lamech » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:08 pm

Wait, MarbitChow: Your claim is that the dish can influence pop rates? And that is responsible for the abnormal number of dwagons found along Stanly's route? Furthermore it is suppressing any finding of gobwins? Why isn't Charlie suppressing the dwagons? It would seem that if the dish could do what you claim Charlie would prevent any dwagons from being found. That would greatly harm GK. Normally, a dwagon eats up several turns of level 5 city production. Yet Stanley can get a couple a turn. That is something like 6 level 5 cities producing each and every turn for free. Its a devestating advantage, you think Charlie would want to remove that. So, if he has the power to influence random spawn's via the dish why isn't he doing it?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:54 pm

Lamech wrote:Wait, MarbitChow: Your claim is that the dish can influence pop rates? And that is responsible for the abnormal number of dwagons found along Stanly's route? Furthermore it is suppressing any finding of gobwins? Why isn't Charlie suppressing the dwagons? It would seem that if the dish could do what you claim Charlie would prevent any dwagons from being found. That would greatly harm GK. Normally, a dwagon eats up several turns of level 5 city production. Yet Stanley can get a couple a turn. That is something like 6 level 5 cities producing each and every turn for free. Its a devestating advantage, you think Charlie would want to remove that. So, if he has the power to influence random spawn's via the dish why isn't he doing it?

Possibilities:
1) It's cheaper to suppress gobwins than dwagons, and cost is a factor, since it has to be done each turn. I assume that even artifacts have limitations unless it is explicitly spelled out that they don't (ex. unlimited thinkagrams, unlimited decryption).
2) Charlie knows Stanley loves his dwagons, and messing with that is more likely to invite investigation / retribution; gobwins wouldn't inspire the same reaction if he gets caught
3) Charlie didn't anticipate Parson's dwagon-harvesting method (Charlie is not omniscient), so by the time he realized what GK was doing, it was too late to make much of an impact
4) Charlie is still pretty confident about his air defense (all archon air force, for example), but believes his tunnels to be a weak spot
5) He can't actually stop Stanley from spawning dwagons (just slow him down), but he can completely deny him gobwins
6) Charlie is fallible, and doesn't automatically make the most optimum choice every time; he just wanted to mess w/ GK in a manner that didn't cost or risk much.

But ultimately, the only thing I'm really claiming is that (a) gobwin spawns appear to be manipulated, (b) dwagon spawns appear to have been manipulated on the way to FAQ, (c) the bracer point to Charlie as the likeliest candidate for gobwin spawn manipulation, so (d) Charlie is also the likeliest candidate for dwagon spawn manipulation as well. The 'Dish seems to be the likeliest explanation for this ability, but it's also possible that Charlie is a luckamancer, in which case any luckamancer could do what he does. Charlie would know about Stanley's attack on FAQ, since he'd eavesdrop on Stanley and Wanda setting it up. Since the only other options presented so far have been Marie and the Titans, I'd place my bet on Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby drachefly » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:39 pm

It doesn't even need to affect spawn rates, if wild creatures or natural allies have movement, he could just suggest appropriate movements. That's only using known powers in a creative way.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Oberon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:34 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Lamech wrote:In Book 1 Charlie and his archons had the power of plot: They suddenly had any new power or capability needed to move the plot along in the intended "series of reversals of fortune" that was an underpinning theme in that Book. And this has been carried forward into Book 2, just not as frequently (mostly, I suspect, due to the pace being much slower in this book). Kingworld (*ptui!*) is an excellent example of a completely new and highly potent capability Charlie possesses which had zero in the way of foreshadowing (unless you count the character name of Vanna as such, which I do not) and is not any kind of power which could be assumed by observing those that he or the archons demonstrated in Book 1. A brand, spanking new, highly potent power, which was necessary for the plot to freeze Wanda in place over Jetstone such that it made necessary the personal direction and, unfettered by Stanley, management of GK assets by Parson. Again.
First off, you've quoted me as Lamech. Please watch your tags
Kreistor wrote:At the time, we did not know the disciplines from which the Archons drew their Natural Abilities. We do now. New powers outside the limited set attributed to them in the Summer Updates will no longer occur.
You jest, surely? We knew the powers of archons before DDR (*Ptui!*), and yet it occurred anyway and was in no way foreshadowed. Do not make the mistake of assuming that new and plot convenient powers will not be granted to Charlie and his archons, when this was a recurring theme in Book 1 and has been revisited in Book 2. Do so and you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby The.Healing.Mage » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:07 pm

Lamech wrote:Wait, MarbitChow: Your claim is that the dish can influence pop rates? And that is responsible for the abnormal number of dwagons found along Stanly's route? Furthermore it is suppressing any finding of gobwins? Why isn't Charlie suppressing the dwagons? It would seem that if the dish could do what you claim Charlie would prevent any dwagons from being found. That would greatly harm GK. Normally, a dwagon eats up several turns of level 5 city production. Yet Stanley can get a couple a turn. That is something like 6 level 5 cities producing each and every turn for free. Its a devestating advantage, you think Charlie would want to remove that. So, if he has the power to influence random spawn's via the dish why isn't he doing it?


Weren't Pop rates explicitly linked to turnamancy when Archons were fleshed out? The 'dish is nominally a thinkamancy tool, though admittedly Stanley's has many, many associated disciplines. This could indicate that Charlie doesn't use the 'dish for turnamancy - or he wouldn't spend his schmuckers on a turnamancer. Remember, Charlie is all about his schmuckers. Whether not-turnamancy would be an inherent limitation of the 'dish isn't clear, but Charlie is pretty thorough in all of the standard knowledge of Erfworld. That's the reason he used to be winning Erfworld. That and flying invisible magic ninjas in form-fitting business suits, and... oh bugger. But since we know that Charlie is thorough, clever, and money-oriented, if the arkendish could be used to influence popping, it seems likely that it already would, especially for domestic use, and we have definite word that it isn't.

EDIT: Potentially contrary to my tone, I'm agreeing with the quoted post.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby effataigus » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:31 pm

MarbitChow wrote:1) It's cheaper to suppress gobwins than dwagons, and cost is a factor, since it has to be done each turn. I assume that even artifacts have limitations unless it is explicitly spelled out that they don't (ex. unlimited thinkagrams, unlimited decryption).
2) Charlie knows Stanley loves his dwagons, and messing with that is more likely to invite investigation / retribution; gobwins wouldn't inspire the same reaction if he gets caught
3) Charlie didn't anticipate Parson's dwagon-harvesting method (Charlie is not omniscient), so by the time he realized what GK was doing, it was too late to make much of an impact
4) Charlie is still pretty confident about his air defense (all archon air force, for example), but believes his tunnels to be a weak spot
5) He can't actually stop Stanley from spawning dwagons (just slow him down), but he can completely deny him gobwins
6) Charlie is fallible, and doesn't automatically make the most optimum choice every time; he just wanted to mess w/ GK in a manner that didn't cost or risk much.


Also, it would require altering pop rates in a huge number of hexes to counter Parson's current strategy. Whereas the Faq craziness would only require altering rates in a small number of mountain hexes directly between GK and Faq. The quick and dirty of the forum discussions I've seen on this in the past went like this:

What if Charlie was controlling this?

- There's lots of observations that don't fit well with that possibility

But they don't completely rule out the possibility... also, there's no more-likely candidate to be influencing pop rates than Charlie.

- You are seeing Charlie in every cloud, under every stone, in every mirror... this is madness.

Indeed I am... he's my fav!

....

Which is more or less what we have here (he's my fav, btw! -really). However, I'm starting to come around to the skeptics' side over time... mostly because a dark horse candidate is gaining ground swiftly in the most-likely-to-be-behind-pop-rate-tampering race... whatever hand of fate is at work with Sylvia et al... which doesn't seem likely to be Charlie at all.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Kreistor » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:04 am

A Treatise Explaining How Charlie can Affect Gobwin Presence in Erfworld, without Adding New Powers to the Arkendish

Maggie,Book_2_Page_91 wrote:There were many other such hidden mechanics. There were mental senses which could not even be described to a non-Thinkamancer. The most important of these was the ability to sense Grandiocosmic Strings, the conduits of all magic power in Erfworld.

Only Thinkamancers even knew they existed. A Thinkamancer could feel out the G-Strings of the world, and vibrate upon them by plucking. That was how a Thinkagram was sent, and so much else. Each unit had its own individual G-String, which had many uses.


Archons,Summer_Update_46 wrote:Any commander in the world could get those Archons' attention by concentrating hard enough, for long enough.


The Arkendish Confers to Charlie the most powerful Thinkamancy in Erfworld. He can detect and speak to anyone that merely thinks about him, where other THinkamancers can only do so with their own Side. While one might expect a Findamancer to be necessary to detect Gobwins, Thinkamancy can probe units via G-strings. It is not much of a stretch for Charlie to be able to pluck G-strings and identify Gobwins.

That's step one. Find the Gobwins.

Now all we have to do is either hire them, or kill them. We are most concerned with the ones near Gobwin Knob, so we surround GK, outside of Battlespace with Archons. Archons seem to have significant Move, so we won't need a huge number. Identifying exactly where the Gobwin might be could be a one of the things you pick up from G-string plucking, but we don't need that. We send a Thinkagram to the Gobwin, and offer Alliance at excellent terms. Once allied, we send Archons to "escort" the Gobwin to Charlescomm. Once found, we can actually do that (blindfold and fly in nets, as Charlie wanted to do with Parson), For those that are beyond range of Charlescomm, break Alliance and kill the Gobwins.

But, Kreistor, isn't there a timing problem here? If not in combat, Gobwin Knob's Turn begins at daybreak and they could find the Gobwins first.

Why yes, that is exactly correct; however, we can throw the odds greatly in Charles' favour, just by being creative with Erfworld's flexible time system. Charlie has units scattered far beyond Gobwin Knob's knowledge. Charlie identifies two Sides that are fighting each other with Natural Turn Order after his own. and places a stack of Archons on the edge of the Battlespace.of a City that is not in danger of being taken this Turn, using Foolamancy to hide their presence. Now, while Gobwin Knob takes all day to run Turn, Charlie takes 1/3rd of the day, because everything he does is follwed by the Turns of two other Sides. (Getting mroe than two Sides intot he mix for even faster Turn execution isn't really possible, since the Third Side would need to be contact wiht one of the other two, or it would move simultaneous wiht the two at War.)Since there is no time limit on how long Charlie can take to hunt for Gobwins, Charlie is under no time pressure and can be thorough in his hunt, every day. And when GK is at war, Charlie plants an Archon in BAttlespace of some Side that goes after him, but before GK, and then GK can't even get there first, and can't find Archons in GK battlespace. Remember, units Pop at the beginning of their Turn, and unallied Gobwins would be barbarans, and therefore first in the Turn order, so Charlie can always get to them first, because Charlescomm Moves before GK when GK is at War. Further, the apparent delay would be assumed to be due to a barbarian or other Side on the far edge of GK's enemy's terrain.

So, no manipulation of pop-rates is necessary to prevent Gobwin Knob from finding a Gobwin. It can all be done with the known powers of Thinkamancy and the Arkendish, some Archons, the wonderful flexible time of Erfworld, and just a touch of callousness.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby MarbitChow » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:36 am

Kreistor wrote:The Arkendish Confers to Charlie the most powerful Thinkamancy in Erfworld. He can detect and speak to anyone that merely thinks about him, where other THinkamancers can only do so with their own Side. While one might expect a Findamancer to be necessary to detect Gobwins, Thinkamancy can probe units via G-strings. It is not much of a stretch for Charlie to be able to pluck G-strings and identify Gobwins.

Just so we're clear: in order for your treatise to explain how Charlie can remove all gobwins, Charlie has to be functionally omniscient. If he can spot every instance of a gobwin in every hex over a huge area in a arbitrary region that is not within the same battlespace as his city, that implies that he can theoretically know the exact layout of every unit anywhere. I'll grant you that this theory does not contradict what we know about Charlie, but it does make him a hell of a lot more powerful than I think he is.

I'll also note that the 'Dish *has* been shown to have turnamancy powers. Charlie can pop archons at much faster than a normal rate, and that rate can be increased even further with a turnamancer. Since a turnamancer can influence rate spawn times, the ability to spawn archons faster is mostly likely a turnamancy ability.

But back to your original point: if Charlie has the ability to spot popped units via thinkamancy immediately, then he doesn't need the complex time hack you describe - he can simply contact each gobwin by thinkamancy the moment it spawns, make a deal with it, and guide it to either a safe point outside of GK space (since he knows all unit's positions, he can steer the gobwins safely) or guide it into a hex filled with creatures that would croak the gobwins immediately.

I'd argue that "knowing the position of all units through thinkamancy" is technically a new power, and an awesome one at that. It duplicates lookamancy, and would be more effective than the Maggie-Jack-Misty link by a long shot. But since I've taken the position that the 'Tools all have still-unrevealed abilities, I'll grant that this is a possible explanation.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby drachefly » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:30 am

It's also possible that random pops are only weakly pseudorandomly generated (like the sequence of monster drops in the Legend of Zelda), and he's found out the pattern, so he knows just where to look.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Kreistor » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:12 am

MarbitChow wrote:Just so we're clear: in order for your treatise to explain how Charlie can remove all gobwins, Charlie has to be functionally omniscient.


Phttt. Mapping the world requires omniscience? Hardly. it only takes effort, and Charlie has numbers (600 Archons with Flying Move anf Foolamancy for the difficult areas) to handle that problem.

If he can spot every instance of a gobwin in every hex over a huge area in a arbitrary region that is not within the same battlespace as his city, that implies that he can theoretically know the exact layout of every unit anywhere.


Bwhahaha. Are you serious about that? Or did you completely miss:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F042.jpg

"I need you to proceed to X: -1218 Y:467"

Yeah, Charlie has no interest whatsoever in mapping the world.

But the fundamental flaw is that Charlie has to map the entire world. He only needs to map the area between GK and the nearest enemy Cities, because they can't look for Gobwins beyond those barriers. A single dwagon flight is on the order of 56 hexes, so the number of hexes they can visit in one Turn is

A = 2x(57+58+...+112)+113
*
57+112 = 58+111 = 84+85 = 169
*
=113 + 2 x 28 x 169
= 9577 hexes

Charlie would know the upper end of dwagon flight, so the real nuber will be some hundreds or possibly thousands more. But finite.

With a Move of 30 (half of a dwagon's... we don't know Archon range, but he was able to get nearly 60 of his 600 in GK arispace in one Turn, despite their coordinates being a very long way from Charlescomm), The entire area around GK can be accurately mapped by visitation and close examination in one Turn by 319 Archons, or over the course of many by fewer. (Personally, I'd be surprised if Charlie hadn't mapped every area near every major City.) Given that unemployed Archons can be used for this purpose, over the course of 500 Turns (400 Turns to pop 600 Archons, no Archons deaths, plus the 100 Turns since Decryption), mapping the entire World is not that hard. (Telepathy helps so much with communicating the information back to a central base.)

Further, you don't need to visit every Hex. hex walls are not curtains. You can get a less accurate picture of every hex bordering the hex you are in, so you can cut your time in three by making a few logical assumptions about what's on the far side of neighbouring hexes. You can then go back later and revisit every hex to complete the map.

Charlie can pop archons at much faster than a normal rate, and that rate can be increased even further with a turnamancer.


Yes... each Arkentool has some special ability that gives the wielder a special unit. Dwagon taming... Decryption... and Archons. Note that Parson asked specifically if the Arkendish was what allowed Charlie to pop Archons, and the Decrypted Archons couldn't answer the question. Parson has noted the parallel. You can't know for certain that Charlescomm can pop Archons without the 'Dish, and if the City can't, then it isn't Turnamancy.

Further, Charlie does not sell Turnamancy services. If he could use this theoretical Turnamancy at range, he would offer that service. The Archons do not tell Parson he sells such a service. Nor has he attempted to sell that service to Stanley, even as a Chief Warlord, which would be an obvious money maker. Why do it for free, when he can sell the service to Stanley?

So, even if it could increase popping frequency through Turnamancy, you're going to need to drag the Dish to those Hexes, which means Charlie leaving Charlescomm, something the Archons insist does not happen.

But back to your original point: if Charlie has the ability to spot popped units via thinkamancy immediately, then he doesn't need the complex time hack you describe


Everything is easy when you can make up whatever you need, isn't it?

I'd argue that "knowing the position of all units through thinkamancy" is technically a new power, and an awesome one at that.


Like I said, I achieved this without using a new power, by talking to the Gobwin and asking it where it is, which is just normal Thinkamancy. If you need me to be more creative, the Gobwin can be asked to create a fire. Since we are only concerned about the region surrounding GK or its army, the nearby Archons can simply fly around looking for the landmarks the Marbit describes (ie. I'm in a hex that borders mountains on two sides and water on a third, and there's a road running North-South. That greatly reduces the number of hexes the Archons need to look into.) or the fire described by the gobwin. If he's not there, he's out of GK detection range, and so it can be asked to move to an identifiable landmark the next Turn, and collected later (ie. it finds a City. If it isn't killed as an undesirable or hired as a desirable, which serves our purpose in both cases, it gets a City Name from the defenders and can tell Charlie exactly where it is.)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Lamech » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:34 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
Kreistor wrote:The Arkendish Confers to Charlie the most powerful Thinkamancy in Erfworld. He can detect and speak to anyone that merely thinks about him, where other THinkamancers can only do so with their own Side. While one might expect a Findamancer to be necessary to detect Gobwins, Thinkamancy can probe units via G-strings. It is not much of a stretch for Charlie to be able to pluck G-strings and identify Gobwins.

Just so we're clear: in order for your treatise to explain how Charlie can remove all gobwins, Charlie has to be functionally omniscient. If he can spot every instance of a gobwin in every hex over a huge area in a arbitrary region that is not within the same battlespace as his city, that implies that he can theoretically know the exact layout of every unit anywhere. I'll grant you that this theory does not contradict what we know about Charlie, but it does make him a hell of a lot more powerful than I think he is.
No he doesn't. The archon's scouting for gobwins only head out half a dwagon flight. That ends up getting 600-700 mountain hexes. Sizemore also looks for units, but presumably he isn't going much farther. So Charlie only needs to check 600-700 hexes. Plus there are lots of marbits where the gobwins should be. He could I don't know... ask the marbits if any of there hated enemies are near by?
I'll also note that the 'Dish *has* been shown to have turnamancy powers. Charlie can pop archons at much faster than a normal rate, and that rate can be increased even further with a turnamancer. Since a turnamancer can influence rate spawn times, the ability to spawn archons faster is mostly likely a turnamancy ability.
Sure its just not the dish allowing Charle's comm cities to pop archons? And it happens to have a rate of one a turn? Parson didn't say normally it takes X turns. He said other cities take multiple turns. That implies there isn't a set rate to pop archons from a city.

Regardless, Lamech's Treatise Explaining How Charlie can Affect Gobwin Presence in Erfworld, without Adding New Powers to the Arkendish
Step one, Find a tribe of Marbits near GK.
Step two, If the marbits are a nice tough tribe, then go to step three. If the Marbits are weak give them free stuff, and repeat this step.
Step three, pay this Marbit tribe a bounty to kill gobwins, and to report the location of gobwins. Reported locations of gobwins, you hire away to some new local, and croak them if they won't stay after getting fired.
Step four, if you aren't killing enough gobwins repeat the process with a new marbit tribe.

You can also hire casters to support the process, such as turnamancers, lookamancers, or luckamancers ect.

This explains why the gobwins are low, why the marbits are high (MDMA), and doesn't give anyone new powers.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Renion » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:23 pm

Getting close to three weeks without a comic. 'Bout that time, ay chaps?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby The.Healing.Mage » Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:07 pm

Renion wrote:Getting close to three weeks without a comic. 'Bout that time, ay chaps?


Bumping this not because it's a good question (it is) but because the Charlie discussion has become painfully tedious. WoG is that Charlie is probably somehow keeping GK from finding the Gobwins, whether by eliminating them, cloaking them, or removing them.We don't need to snipe at each other with imagined minutia.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Kreistor » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:40 pm

It's convention season. Hard to draw comics while you're on the road. Rob can write 'em, but Xin can't draw 'em.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby BakaGrappler » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:22 am

I don't know if this has been presented before, but it's late at night and I'm feeling muddled, so I'm feeling unfounded bravery right now.

I believe that Charlie broke the code used for G-String communications, used the warning from Maggie to send Jeftichew to lure Parson out of Erfworld, and as a final effort, changed Maggie's message subtly so that it suggested that the Thinkamancers needed to place Parson under protective custody. All to prevent our man from reaching the field of battle. Shooting the Healthy Runner.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Kreistor » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:29 am

BakaGrappler wrote:I don't know if this has been presented before, but it's late at night and I'm feeling muddled, so I'm feeling unfounded bravery right now.

I believe that Charlie broke the code used for G-String communications, used the warning from Maggie to send Jeftichew to lure Parson out of Erfworld, and as a final effort, changed Maggie's message subtly so that it suggested that the Thinkamancers needed to place Parson under protective custody. All to prevent our man from reaching the field of battle. Shooting the Healthy Runner.


Except that it won't help. Parson can still command via Thinkamancy, if Maggie can convince Stanley to let her go to the MK to keep him in contact. Parson's personal presence is not to provide a superior bonus (which at best it will raise to a 2), but to assuage his own guilt for not putting himself in danger when he places his troops in danger.

Further, we know from Jillian that Archons are surrounding Jetstone. What we don't know is how many. By allowing Parson to enter Jetstone, Parson is essentially trapped there. The Casters will more stringently guard against his return, so Charlie has another chance to be able to capture Parson. (Parson can't mount dwagons, so getting back to GK is going to be a little bit problematic. Maybe a net strung between dwagons, the way the Archons tried? Maybe the Rug or Jetpack.) It may not be a good chance, and he won't know how good until he sees how much damage Jetstone inflicts on GK's troops. But unless Parson gets to Jetstone, Charlie has no chance at all.

There are a couple things that stand in the way. Jillian speaks about having to work around Vanna's ath to Bea, so Jeftichew might not be able to work for Charlie at all, depending on how binding an oath is. If it's a contract like Charlie's for his services, it may be completely binding. Further, Jeftichew's attempt lacks Charlie's touch. Charlie prefers no-loss scenarios, and Jeftichew's attempt to prey on Prson's gullibility is just too unreliable. With an entire island of Casters that fear Parson, finding a small group that could increase Jeftichew's chance of success is not that difficult, and Charlie does have an excellent reputation as an emploter there to get compliance.

No, sorry, I understand the attractiveness of this idea, you aren't the only one that thinks this, but it just doesn't have Charlie's fingerprints on it.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Lamech » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:38 pm

Kreistor wrote:Further, we know from Jillian that Archons are surrounding Jetstone. What we don't know is how many. By allowing Parson to enter Jetstone, Parson is essentially trapped there. The Casters will more stringently guard against his return, so Charlie has another chance to be able to capture Parson. (Parson can't mount dwagons, so getting back to GK is going to be a little bit problematic. Maybe a net strung between dwagons, the way the Archons tried? Maybe the Rug or Jetpack.) It may not be a good chance, and he won't know how good until he sees how much damage Jetstone inflicts on GK's troops. But unless Parson gets to Jetstone, Charlie has no chance at all.
I doubt they are surrounding GK; if they were close they risked detection. Had they been detected GK could have floated up, taken down a few and done a repeat of what happened in the dungeon. That would have been bad. Or it might have scared off GK if he had some overwhelming force. Plus if he had an overwhelming force that could defeat Wanda+pliers+dwagons he wouldn't need to bother with Kingworld. So his force's are off somewhere, but still in battle-space. (Yes this seems, minor, but wait.)

Second, how would he fight through a captured Jetstone? Wanda will spell up the tower. (Well, it will get spelled up somehow, the cities Jillian are attacking have spelled up towers.) They will have archers. And Jack, so veiling won't work. Plus? Its a city so Charlie needs to control the airspace before doing squat about the tower. He approaches with a hoard of archons, the tower shoots some to dead, archers shoot some dead, dead become decrypted, dead croak some more and the cycle repeats. Just like the dungeon fight for Jetstone: you die to the forces you brought with you. And no, Jetstone isn't going to inflict damage on GK's troops. Remember the dungeon fight for Jetstone? I don't see how Charlie could possibly take a captured Jetstone easier than taking GK when it was walking up to Jetstone.
Except that it won't help. Parson can still command via Thinkamancy, if Maggie can convince Stanley to let her go to the MK to keep him in contact. Parson's personal presence is not to provide a superior bonus (which at best it will raise to a 2), but to assuage his own guilt for not putting himself in danger when he places his troops in danger.
Actually, no he can't command. The temple of thinkamancers is thinkamancy proofed remember? If Parson went there that would take him out of the battle. (Not that it matters, since the tower is about to fall, but I don't think Charlie has eyes on the tower right now. So his info is the same flawed info that leads everyone to think Parson will help.)

There are a couple things that stand in the way. Jillian speaks about having to work around Vanna's ath to Bea, so Jeftichew might not be able to work for Charlie at all, depending on how binding an oath is. If it's a contract like Charlie's for his services, it may be completely binding. Further, Jeftichew's attempt lacks Charlie's touch. Charlie prefers no-loss scenarios, and Jeftichew's attempt to prey on Prson's gullibility is just too unreliable. With an entire island of Casters that fear Parson, finding a small group that could increase Jeftichew's chance of success is not that difficult, and Charlie does have an excellent reputation as an emploter there to get compliance.
An attempt that might do nothing is better than doing nothing. Worst case scenario of attempting something is nothing. That is the only outcome of nothing. And I still don't see why more casters would necessarily improve odds. Plus it would risk all sorts of other problems, the portal being sealed off, the Great Minds getting wind of it, Janice getting wind of it, ect. Besides if three casters were more effective then one, then wouldn't those casters want even more? If you warn someone who wants Parson out of the MK, they will likely raise the alarm and tell the whole MK; then the great minds warn Parson. (And Charlie looks like a moron, when Parson doesn't show.) Tell a caster who thinks Parson should be allowed and they'll accuse you of bringing war to the MK. You need a caster who specifically wants to harm GK, as opposed to keep the MK safe from battle, or keep the MK safe from Parson.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Kreistor » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:48 pm

Lamech wrote:I doubt they are surrounding GK; if they were close they risked detection. Had they been detected GK could have floated up, taken down a few and done a repeat of what happened in the dungeon. That would have been bad.


By "surround" I don't mean "in the next hexes over." Archons can be anywhere up to their maximum Move from Jetstone. Further, with Foolamancy, they can make themselves difficult to Detect, and with Leadership, they can control themselves and not attack enemy units.

We know they are outside Battlespace. Since we don't know how far Battlespace extends, they may or may not be within attack range. I wish we knew more about the limits of Battlespace. Can you launch an attack on a City on a Turn where they atart outside Battlespace? Or does the system conform by extending Battlespace to anyone that has intent to attack a City during that Turn?

Or it might have scared off GK if he had some overwhelming force. Plus if he had an overwhelming force that could defeat Wanda+pliers+dwagons he wouldn't need to bother with Kingworld. So his force's are off somewhere, but still in battle-space. (Yes this seems, minor, but wait.)


I don't think they cna be in Battlespace, because all Sides would notice that some unknown Side was taking a Turn, and given that Natural Turn order is fixed, ti wouldn't take much to figure out who.

Second, how would he fight through a captured Jetstone? Wanda will spell up the tower. (Well, it will get spelled up somehow, the cities Jillian are attacking have spelled up towers.)


First... what Tower? It's about to crash, and they can't rebuild until GK's next Turn. (GK wasn't rebuilt off-Turn or at night... it had to wait for Turn to start.)

That depends on the details of "spelling up the tower". It may require being on Turn and with Juice. If so, Wanda can't until after Charlescomm Turn the next day. Further, anti-air spells appear to be Shockamancy, which suggests that GK would need to obtain scrolls for that purpose. [Edit: technically Wanda could since she has talents outside Croakamancy, but nobody seesm to be pushing buttons with her right now.]

They will have archers. And Jack, so veiling won't work.


True on archers, but they won't have a Tower, so the Archers can't hit Airspace. That puts Archons in Tower Rubble opposed only by the few remaining dwagons and Decrypted Archons, some or even most of which will be damaged. They can go from Tower to Dungeon, and cut off Portal. Archers aren't particularly capable inside hallways, since it limits range due to preventing arrows from arcing. Archon magic doesn't arc.

So many obscure events needed to occur divergent from Charlie's ideal plan that foreseeing Parson entering Jetstone before GK's next Turn is probably too unlikely to spend time on. Ansom needs to be killed or captured, Jillian has to not deal with Wanda, Parson has to get the Portal captured despite all Units being in airspace, Parson needs to replace him (instead of any of the much higher bonus Warlords, like Sylvia), Parson needs to remove his own Garrison trait, he has to be willing to enrage the inhabitants of the MK, survive the crossing through the MK, and avoid Jeftichew's gambit.

But Charlie needs some kind of back-up plan in case Wanda survives and takes Jetstone, with or without Parson in Jetstone. He needs to have some plan in place in case Haggar refuses the Blackmail, allowing Ansom and his infantry+siege to threaten Jetstone next Turn. Having a major force near Jetstone does not require foreseeing Parson running through MK.

But when the opportunity does arrive, he's not going to stand in its way. Charlie above all others understands the threat posed by Parson. A Parson in the MK under the watch of the Thinkamancers is only a temporary solution: He can't assume the Thinkamancers will keep him there indefinitely.

Plus? Its a city so Charlie needs to control the airspace before doing squat about the tower.


Like I asked, "What Tower?" Tower fall down go boom. What archons? Slately is prepping to take some of them out now. What dwagons? their numbers have been wrecked. Nearly a free rid to Tower Rubble, and from there into dungeons where archers aren't a problem, and the infantry which has done most of the fighting has been diminished in number.

Actually, no he can't command. The temple of thinkamancers is thinkamancy proofed remember? If Parson went there that would take him out of the battle. (Not that it matters, since the tower is about to fall, but I don't think Charlie has eyes on the tower right now. So his info is the same flawed info that leads everyone to think Parson will help.)


Maggie walks into the temple, communicates the problem, parson solves it, she steps out, and Thinkamancies the info to Wanda and Jack. When her Juice runs out, she or Sizemore tells them at the portal.

An attempt that might do nothing is better than doing nothing. Worst case scenario of attempting something is nothing. That is the only outcome of nothing.


No, any attack reveals information to you victim. It tells them that you are an enemy, and you have certain types of forces. It spoils surprise, and puts your enemy on alert, potentially making higher probability attempts later less likely to succeed due to target wariness.

Note that right now, most of GK does not view Charlie as a threat. That stops. Make a choice: operate from the shadows over the long term, or become primary target number one by revealing yourself now.

And I still don't see why more casters would necessarily improve odds.


Yeah, uhm, did you miss:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-07-16.jpg

More casters against him make it harder for Parson to proceed, and more casters for him make it easier. While there is a law of diminishing returns in all things, the synergy of a few appropriately chosen people, not even mentioning casters, working together can achieve far more than the individuals alone could. In the case of Casters, you can have the synergy of mutually beneficial abilities. The Mathemancer+Luckmancer combo was noted. In many games, a spellcaster that slows an enemy can cause another to get off more spells before the target escapes than two spellcasters of the second type would while the target moves at full speed.

I would love to plan and demonstrate a great "capture" or "kill" Parson scenario, but so few of the Mancies are defined well enough to present a well crafted plan. Heck, we have Predictamancer about to go into combat, but how would that even work? The only way I can see is that MArie can make short term predictions as well as long... but we haven't realyl seen it, so I can't say for certain. Maybe, like Wanda, she has other Mancies she can draw on.

Plus it would risk all sorts of other problems, the portal being sealed off,


As I have said before, that sets a terrible precedent that threatens the Casters of all Sides from retreat to the MK when their Sides fall. It is a gross overreaction, and I cannot see this punishment ever being used.

the Great Minds getting wind of it, Janice getting wind of it, ect.


Why would one Caster being in Charlie's hire to interfere with Parson be any less vile to them than 3 or 5?

Besides if three casters were more effective then one, then wouldn't those casters want even more?


Law of Diminishing Returns. Too many people becomes unwieldy... as well as expensive. Further a small group talking around the portal area isn't suspicious. A large force of 20 will attract undesired attention.

If you warn someone who wants Parson out of the MK, they will likely raise the alarm and tell the whole MK; then the great minds warn Parson.


Surely you don't think a regular employer of Casters like Charlie wouldn't have an expectation of privacy with his contractors. Further, in the course of the communication, Charlie presents that he is actually hiring people to deal with the problem, so there's no need for the people he hires to seek additional, unplanned for, help. Charlie has that reputation to draw upon.

(And Charlie looks like a moron, when Parson doesn't show.)


You pay whether he shows or doesn't, and tell the Casters there is a probability of him coming. That implies the use of Mathemancy and/or Predictamancy to determine his imminent presence, without revealing his Thinkamancy tricks.

Tell a caster who thinks Parson should be allowed and they'll accuse you of bringing war to the MK. You need a caster who specifically wants to harm GK, as opposed to keep the MK safe from battle, or keep the MK safe from Parson.


Again, how is that different from just hiring one Caster? One or 30 is no different -- both bring "war" to the MK.

Remember: I think Jeftichew was operating alone, with no influence from Charlie at all. Please don't confuse some of my arguments about how Charlie could go about this with a belief that he did go about it. (I established that when we tread this ground once before.)
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Lamech » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:47 pm

Second, how would he fight through a captured Jetstone? Wanda will spell up the tower. (Well, it will get spelled up somehow, the cities Jillian are attacking have spelled up towers.)


First... what Tower? It's about to crash, and they can't rebuild until GK's next Turn. (GK wasn't rebuilt off-Turn or at night... it had to wait for Turn to start.)

That depends on the details of "spelling up the tower". It may require being on Turn and with Juice. If so, Wanda can't until after Charlescomm Turn the next day. Further, anti-air spells appear to be Shockamancy, which suggests that GK would need to obtain scrolls for that purpose. [Edit: technically Wanda could since she has talents outside Croakamancy, but nobody seesm to be pushing buttons with her right now.]
You can rebuild the city Also most things casters do. Or they can spell up the tower the second the city is hit. And unless they we're wasting scrolls on lightly defended cities, Wanda can do it. They did spell up lightly defended cities.
So many obscure events needed to occur divergent from Charlie's ideal plan that foreseeing Parson entering Jetstone before GK's next Turn is probably too unlikely to spend time on. Ansom needs to be killed or captured, Jillian has to not deal with Wanda, Parson has to get the Portal captured despite all Units being in airspace, Parson needs to replace him (instead of any of the much higher bonus Warlords, like Sylvia), Parson needs to remove his own Garrison trait, he has to be willing to enrage the inhabitants of the MK, survive the crossing through the MK, and avoid Jeftichew's gambit.

But Charlie needs some kind of back-up plan in case Wanda survives and takes Jetstone, with or without Parson in Jetstone. He needs to have some plan in place in case Haggar refuses the Blackmail, allowing Ansom and his infantry+siege to threaten Jetstone next Turn. Having a major force near Jetstone does not require foreseeing Parson running through MK.
Not really sending Sizemore, Maggie, Parson and maybe the GMtTA ("we need the arkenpliers to stop Charlie, you should help") through to end Jetstone seems like a decent possibility if its the only way to save Wanda. A simple decapitation strike against the king. Its the first thing that Janice thought of even when she learned the MK would lose neutral status.
Like I asked, "What Tower?" Tower fall down go boom. What archons? Slately is prepping to take some of them out now. What dwagons? their numbers have been wrecked. Nearly a free rid to Tower Rubble, and from there into dungeons where archers aren't a problem, and the infantry which has done most of the fighting has been diminished in number.
As far as I can tell 3 reds, three greens, and a purple have been perma croaked.

Actually, no he can't command. The temple of thinkamancers is thinkamancy proofed remember? If Parson went there that would take him out of the battle. (Not that it matters, since the tower is about to fall, but I don't think Charlie has eyes on the tower right now. So his info is the same flawed info that leads everyone to think Parson will help.)


Maggie walks into the temple, communicates the problem, parson solves it, she steps out, and Thinkamancies the info to Wanda and Jack. When her Juice runs out, she or Sizemore tells them at the portal.
An attempt that might do nothing is better than doing nothing. Worst case scenario of attempting something is nothing. That is the only outcome of nothing.


No, any attack reveals information to you victim. It tells them that you are an enemy, and you have certain types of forces. It spoils surprise, and puts your enemy on alert, potentially making higher probability attempts later less likely to succeed due to target wariness.
All ready pretty well confirmed by using the dish at Spacerock. Charlie is out of the shadows presently.

Note that right now, most of GK does not view Charlie as a threat. That stops. Make a choice: operate from the shadows over the long term, or become primary target number one by revealing yourself now.

And I still don't see why more casters would necessarily improve odds.


Yeah, uhm, did you miss:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-07-16.jpg

More casters against him make it harder for Parson to proceed, and more casters for him make it easier. While there is a law of diminishing returns in all things, the synergy of a few appropriately chosen people, not even mentioning casters, working together can achieve far more than the individuals alone could. In the case of Casters, you can have the synergy of mutually beneficial abilities. The Mathemancer+Luckmancer combo was noted. In many games, a spellcaster that slows an enemy can cause another to get off more spells before the target escapes than two spellcasters of the second type would while the target moves at full speed.
True about the law of diminishing returns. But there is no reason that might not start as soon as we get over one. Higher chance to risk detection, by Janice, the Predictamancer, Sizemore or the GMtTA. Higher chance for a leak. More casters would be more likely to overcome Parson in combat, but they would also be more likely to be detected. And it doesn't have any of the traits of a peaceful offer. And "I want you to attack someone, but don't croak them." is a stupid plan.
Plus it would risk all sorts of other problems, the portal being sealed off,


As I have said before, that sets a terrible precedent that threatens the Casters of all Sides from retreat to the MK when their Sides fall. It is a gross overreaction, and I cannot see this punishment ever being used.
Compared to KILLING THERE CASTER! I fail to see how barring a caster from the MK is worse than KILLING THAT CASTER! How does that even make sense?
the Great Minds getting wind of it, Janice getting wind of it, ect.


Why would one Caster being in Charlie's hire to interfere with Parson be any less vile to them than 3 or 5?
It would be more obvious and risk a leak. The great minds and Janice won't take revenge, but they will scrub the mission.
Law of Diminishing Returns. Too many people becomes unwieldy... as well as expensive. Further a small group talking around the portal area isn't suspicious. A large force of 20 will attract undesired attention.
As could three, especially if they were stacked up. No reason the law of diminishing returns can't start past one.
If you warn someone who wants Parson out of the MK, they will likely raise the alarm and tell the whole MK; then the great minds warn Parson.


Surely you don't think a regular employer of Casters like Charlie wouldn't have an expectation of privacy with his contractors. Further, in the course of the communication, Charlie presents that he is actually hiring people to deal with the problem, so there's no need for the people he hires to seek additional, unplanned for, help. Charlie has that reputation to draw upon.
And when they've found out he's hired three? Hmm... three caster's to go up against GK's foolamancer, dirtamancer, croakamancer-attuned, hippiemancer-warlord, and thinkamancer? That's a stupid plan. And an expectation pf privacy wouldn't stop them from pointing a kill spell at the portal waiting for Parson, then Sizemore scrubs the mission. And it only takes one caster who thinks its a stupid plan to scrub the mission.
Remember: I think Jeftichew was operating alone, with no influence from Charlie at all. Please don't confuse some of my arguments about how Charlie could go about this with a belief that he did go about it. (I established that when we tread this ground once before.)
What?

We need a new comic me thinks.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 053

Postby Kreistor » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:47 pm

Lamech wrote:You can rebuild the city Also most things casters do. Or they can spell up the tower the second the city is hit.


I stand corrected on the City rebuild, but find it odd that Stanley waited until Turn start. Continuity error?

And unless they we're wasting scrolls on lightly defended cities, Wanda can do it. They did spell up lightly defended cities.


There's another possibility. Maggie. She showed signs of Shockmancy:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F133.jpg

"Hoboken", panel 6 and results on 7, doesn't look much like Thinkamancy to me.

Not really sending Sizemore, Maggie, Parson and maybe the GMtTA ("we need the arkenpliers to stop Charlie, you should help") through to end Jetstone seems like a decent possibility if its the only way to save Wanda. A simple decapitation strike against the king. Its the first thing that Janice thought of even when she learned the MK would lose neutral status.


You're proposing a complete violation of the Conventions of the MK? As well as risking the capture and Turning of the entire GMtTA to GK? You don't not plan for something just because there's a remote possibility of absurdity. Charlie isn't commited to capturing Parson: none of his Units do anything until next Turn, so the GMtTA moving to Jetstone only prevents him from launching an attack, not planning an attack.

As far as I can tell 3 reds, three greens, and a purple have been perma croaked.


That we know of. There is other fighting elsewhere. Either way, all of the dwagons are going to be injured until next GK Turn.

All ready pretty well confirmed by using the dish at Spacerock. Charlie is out of the shadows presently.


Charlie is still a mercenary, and is expected to continue to sell his services against GK.

True about the law of diminishing returns. But there is no reason that might not start as soon as we get over one. Higher chance to risk detection, by Janice, the Predictamancer, Sizemore or the GMtTA. Higher chance for a leak. More casters would be more likely to overcome Parson in combat, but they would also be more likely to be detected. And it doesn't have any of the traits of a peaceful offer. And "I want you to attack someone, but don't croak them." is a stupid plan.


All true, to a certain extent. But what is certain was that Jeftichew's plan of relying on Parson being a sucker failed.

Compared to KILLING THERE CASTER! I fail to see how barring a caster from the MK is worse than KILLING THAT CASTER! How does that even make sense?


He has been warned that he will be killed if he returns. It is referenced by Maggie, Sizemore, Parson, and Stanley off the top of my head. All Sides would understand the fundamental threat: Parson in the MK can capture an unsuspecting Free Caster and drag him/her off to GK... which is something no other Side can do. Further, as a non-Caster, he is not behoolden to the Conventions, which must prevent Sided Casters of enemy Sides from attacking each other in the MK. Parson, as an inherent violation of the Conventions merely by existing, can have such a judgement against him, because at this moment he is a Warlord and not a Caster. Yes, Janis claims he is a Hippiemancer, but he has not yet manifested any actual ability as a Caster.

It would be more obvious and risk a leak. The great minds and Janice won't take revenge, but they will scrub the mission.


I don't buy it. 1 vs. 3 vs. 5 doesn't change anything. Parson has been commanded to stay out. Anyone choosing to enforce that punishment, regardless of the involvement of a Side, would not be operating against any Convention.

As could three, especially if they were stacked up. No reason the law of diminishing returns can't start past one.


http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-07-16.jpg

Three casters hanging around near the portals without raising suspicions, panel 3, in red.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-03-25.jpg

Panel 3 casters in white, panel 3. Sizemore et al, panel 9. No one showing signs of suspicion, even when there was something to be suspicious about.

There is one great thing about places like Portal Park... they are places of gathering. Groups are *not* exceptional. Friends say goodbye or await the arrival of others. Waiting around is commonplace. It takes little to stay long term and not attract notice, especially with a Foolamancer around to change your form every once in a while.

And when they've found out he's hired three? Hmm... three caster's to go up against GK's foolamancer, dirtamancer, croakamancer-attuned, hippiemancer-warlord, and thinkamancer? That's a stupid plan.


In that scenario, GK loses Jetstone. Jack and Wanda cannot return to Jetstone, since that would violate convention. That they came from Jetstone does not change the fact that GK still does not own it, so they would be assaulting through the portal.

Further, we are talking about stopping him at the portal. The abushers would not reveal themselves if Parson had significant help: they're expecting him to make the run alone. Again, a chance of exceptional power against the plan is not a reason to not plan, only a reason to be ready for that contingency. (In this case, don't attack Parson in that situation.)

You don't give up on a potential gain, just because of a worst-case scenario might occur. You consider the worst-case scenario and prepare for it. Sometimes that preparation is, "Don't attack in that case, because the cost would be too high." Charlie has a reputation as a good employer, not a callous, insensitive taskmaster that expects loyalty unto death from contractors.

And it only takes one caster who thinks its a stupid plan to scrub the mission.


It's not a stupid plan. It's an aberrant scenario, where Parson calls on everyone to violate the Rules they have lived by all their existence. Of course I give that scenario no merit.

me wrote:Remember: I think Jeftichew was operating alone, with no influence from Charlie at all. Please don't confuse some of my arguments about how Charlie could go about this with a belief that he did go about it. (I established that when we tread this ground once before.)


Lamech wrote:What?


Not a mind reader. I can't tell which part you're surprised at. If it's the reference to having doen this argument before... yeah, we did. I don't remember which comic, though. This is all retreaded ground.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

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