Book 2 – Page 70

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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:05 pm

Kreistor wrote:I note there is no reference to any Rules in that statement. Out of hand dismissals are not evidence.


Because you assume brevity equals lack of content. How's this, then. Jack asserts that as soon as they take the city, the portal is gone. Antium then asserts that that can happen at any moment, as soon as the Tower falls. Jack reacts with the oops, suggesting that the moment the Tower falls is the moment Spacerock is taken. I don't see any references to moping up the rubble or anything.

Kreistor wrote:But no one in the comic is reacting as if you were correct.


But they are. See above.

EDIT:

Or to put it yet another way, IF falling of the Tower meant that the city would not be taken yet, then there would be no danger in the Portal disappearing. Would it then make sense for Jack to have the oops moment? If the Tower can fall, and the city remains unconquered, then the Portal is still there once Sylvia supposedly completes her siege, and there's no reason for Jack to remark that the siege wasn't in Parson's plan. It would be irrelevant, as far as Parson being able to get to Spacerock via Portal goes.

But that's not the discussion we're seeing.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Beeskee » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:18 pm

I think it's because Slately is still in the tower, with no heir. If the tower collapses with him still inside, he most likely croaks. And if he croaks with no heir, the side goes neutral (not barbarian, no heir) and apparently loses it's portal.

If Slately had moved his fat stupid butt then it would be different. :D Or if he puts on the magical king saving device and starts flying before the tower falls then he'll avoid croaking, at least right away. He'll be in airspace with a bunch of hostile units but he'll be alive at least a little bit longer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby atalex » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:13 pm

I'm wondering if Parson has found (or at least thinks he has found) an exploit that can potentially allow GK to maintain more than one capitol city. For example, maybe if Slately is taken alive, brought back to GK as a hostage to be brainwashed by Maggie, and then made into a vassal of Stanley, perhaps GK would have access to two capitols with all the benefits that implies (one of which is control of two MK portals and the ability of Parson to effectively teleport hundreds of hexes. I find it improbable that he intended to travel to JS just to get stranded there, but I find it even more improbable that he didn't consider the effects that the fall of JS would have on the portal. Accordingly, he must have some idea that has not been shared with us yet. I don't know what it is, but then, none of us knew that dragons could be harvested in mid-flight until the Klog that revealed that information.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:43 pm

Nevermind this.
Last edited by Kreistor on Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:45 pm

Oh, crap. I get it. Sorry.

When Tower falls and Slately dies, the City won't be captured, but there will be no Jetstone Side. The City will stop being a Capital, so the Portal will disappear.

Doh.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Dinkum » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:14 pm

atalex wrote:I find it improbable that he intended to travel to JS just to get stranded there, but I find it even more improbable that he didn't consider the effects that the fall of JS would have on the portal. Accordingly, he must have some idea that has not been shared with us yet. I don't know what it is, but then, none of us knew that dragons could be harvested in mid-flight until the Klog that revealed that information.


I agree that Parson has probably thought this action through to the nines before ever walking into GK's portal. Parson's Klog discusses the gravity-exception for off-turn movement while Jack was still physically available for questioning, which was at the very least before the final battle at Spacerock, if not farther in the past. His Klog also lists 'Situation Room Notes 11' as the gravity-exception, and 'Situation Room Notes 23' as the harvest mechanic, but he was able to connect the two separate ideas almost immediately after being promoted to Chief Warlord. Most likely his memory is near photographic when it comes to gaming scenarios. He has shown insight above and beyond the other characters, to the point of knowing what questions to ask his bracer that nobody else is even aware should be questioned, such as the problem with the missing natural allies. Based on his interrogation of Vurp, Parson may even have gotten an inkling of how many unanswered questions are involved in Stanley's rise to power.

Certainly it could be construed that Parson is following his heart instead of his head, and rushing to the front-lines like some sort of...Royal, but I highly doubt it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Swodaems » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:08 pm

MarbitChow wrote:No member of GK's army has 'easy access' to return (except for the Dwagon relays for individual units). The bulk of the army was going to be out in the field. Why is it suddenly a big concern that Parson is subject to this?
Wanda and Jack could return to GK via the portals if they failed to take Jetstone, but would be traveling traditionally back if they succeeded. If dwagons or archons with nets can carry him, he's about 6 turns away from GK. If he's got to walk, he maybe 20 or 30 turns away, but it will probably only take him a couple of turns to organize something that let's him get back more quickly.

But Parson heading back isn't likely. He said he wouldn't send his people into fights that he himself won't fight. That means that he's going to be in the attacking assault force from now on. He doesn't *want* to be back at GK.

I'm failing to understand why this is a big issue.


The reveal about the portal situation is an issue to me for 3 reasons.
1. I can find no good reason this knowledge was hidden from us for so long. I've said before that Parson should be aware of the portal mechanics by now. Knowledge that all the important characters know should be knowledge that the readers know too and we should find out as soon as possible. (I can see reasons to keep character acknowledge that the portal mechanics might cause a problem from us until this late, but not the mechanics themselves. The fact that, with our prior knowledge of the situation, we could never have realized that the characters have been acting stupid for the last few months until the moment they realized it themselves made the joke simply fall flat. We were going "Okay, new mechanic information" instead of "Bwah hahaha, NOW you notice.")

2. It has further revealed Parson's poorly written out character development. Parson's willingness to suddenly shift from an easy-going lifestyle to one of action and battle needs to be better explained. Before now Parson has been protrayed as someone so afraid of taking personal responibility for someone's death that he had to use Maggie to give Bogroll the order to go to his death. Now we see him calmly making the decision to step directly into the middle of battle with flagrent disregard for the fact that the blood of the croaking is now going to run down his blade and across his hand. He has shown us no hint at all to how he came to the idea that it would be good for his nose to become filled with the stench of the waste that men void when they croak. We now know that he has fully dedicated himself to a personally dangerous situation that he is likely to be stuck in for several more turns. We were merely told that had given a lot of thought to the matter and somehow came to the conclusion that he can't send men into battle without fighting at the front. In the words of every decent college calculus teacher out there: "That is not good enough. Show your work." I need to be told, in detail, exactly what thoughts were going thru Parson's head. (Parson's promise to himself means diddily-shit to me and seems completely out of character. Parson simply should not have the self confidence in himself to be able to pull that off. He was introduced to us a depressed, degenerate, gamer. I've suffered from depression myself, so I know a few truths about the matter. One of those is "By the time you have hit this state, you have broken enough promises to yourself that, by themself, they can no longer be relied on as an acceptable means of creating a change in your behavior. Parson's prior developments a shown in comic, in the Summer updates, and in the Book 2 text updates have shown us a Parson that has done little aside from squirrel himself away with his simulator) Yes, I'm aware that I should have voiced this gripe long ago when Parson first declared his intent to travel thru the Magic Kingdom, but at the time I was willing to overlook the matter because I thought Erfworld was meant to be a good humored war story. Now that the story seems to have shifted into an attempt to tell a serious character story, I simply cannot ignore the discrepancy. I remember someone in another reaction thread saying that the rest of the story didn't matter so long as Rob was able to weave a brilliant tapestry of characterization with the cast of Erfworld, but quite frankly, I see something with more holes than my mother's well-used, flimsy, dish rags. We have simply not been given any deep insights into the developing thought processes of the main protagonist recently and the story is suffering because of it. We've skipped over everything truely important in our zeal to closely examine the side characters. (If you disagree with me and think that we have indeed been given good insight into Parson's thought processes since the beginning of book 2, please pm me with what what you think the insight is and I will respond in kind to tell you why I think it doesn't qualify. I feel my criticism in that regard stops being constructive and therefore has no place in this thread.)

3. I'm also complaining because of what I think this means for the plot. I'm complaining because my plot related predictomancy is saying that a horribly railroad moment of crowning is coming for Parson. Putting a few of the story's facts together led me to the conclusion that Parson is fated to become a ruler. (I've voiced the idea before in the Parson's missions thread.) Confirmation of the fact that Marie is trying to shove Parson thru a portal likely to close behind him has made me more sure of the idea. Parson's physical weaknesses and skills actually make him a poor choice for the combat-oriented position of Chief Warlord, but great for the grand strategy-oriented position of Ruler. I'm expecting for Stanley to decide to spin Spacerock off into a new side with Parson at the head with whatever excuse becomes readily available.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kalak » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:38 pm

I haven't seen anyone else post this yet, but I think this supports a few people's arguments:

"We haven't-- Jetstone hasn't lost the war yet, Lacrosse," Antium said dourly. "We should be up at the tower seeing to that, I feel."
http://www.erfworld.com/page/21/

Decrypted feel they should be knocking down the tower. That means it's Fate, right?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kalak » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:42 pm

Swodaems wrote:Parson's physical weaknesses and skills actually make him a poor choice for the combat-oriented position of Chief Warlord, but great for the grand strategy-oriented position of Ruler.


Also, I politely disagree with this. I haven't seen Slately do any grand strategy, and in the last Turn, we've seen the Tool become frustrated with his lack of doing anything. Parson seems much more cut out for Warlording than Ruling. Though, him being a ruler and seeing tons and tons of casters (influenced by Thinkamancers and Marie) flocking to his side would cause some awesome consternation in Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Swodaems » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:05 pm

Kalak wrote:
Swodaems wrote:Parson's physical weaknesses and skills actually make him a poor choice for the combat-oriented position of Chief Warlord, but great for the grand strategy-oriented position of Ruler.


Also, I politely disagree with this. I haven't seen Slately do any grand strategy, and in the last Turn, we've seen the Tool become frustrated with his lack of doing anything. Parson seems much more cut out for Warlording than Ruling. Though, him being a ruler and seeing tons and tons of casters (influenced by Thinkamancers and Marie) flocking to his side would cause some awesome consternation in Erfworld.


You're looking at the wrong two rulers as a basis for your opinions on what functions a ruler can provide to the side. They are both small little men who don't do much of anything. Don King decides what cities Transylvito will be assaulting and when. (He leaves the how up to Ceaser.) Jillian does everything most Chief Warlords except provide the chief warlord bonus. She is in charge of both grand side strategy and immediate battle tactics. (She may cave in to the demands of her backers from time to time, but in the end, everything is her call. ) Duncun is just her senior advisor.

If Parson was Ruler, he would have an option of where to draw the line on his powers and on the powers of his chief warlord. As defined in the story thus far, there is no concrete mechanic that says your chief warlord actually has to be the one calling the shots. The chief warlord title is just a bonus best given to your highest level or best positioned warlord unit. It should be tossed around with fanfare whenever the situation calls for it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Sieggy » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:06 pm

So, what happens if you decrypt a Ruler? Is that side no longer 'Neutral', but resumes its previous state, only now the Ruler is Wanda's thrall? Of course, you do realize that someone who has Crowns in fealty is generally known as an Emperor . . . Empress Wanda, anyone . . ? (Stanley will cwap himself)

If decrypted, given the natural thinkamancy involved with being a Ruler, does his new-found devotion to Wanda carry over (however grudgingly) to those under him? What about those JS / SR forces that are outside the city - will they disband if/when Slately is croaked as did Bea's forces outside her city? If Slately were decrypted, I would really doubt if they would just re-appear.

And if upon Slately's decryption, things are 'reset', then would the portal re-appear? I can see the whole MK having a small conniption if the JS portal were to disappear and shortly later re-appear. (I can see it now - Parson enters the portal, the portal vanishes. Later, the portal pops back up, and Parson emerges . . . that's how God legends get started)

And . . . would his father's decryption & conversion bring Trem to Wanda's side (though probably with very low loyalty, assuming he survives)? Or would, like Jillian, he simply become a barbarian? If Trem croaks and is decrypted, I can see him and Parson cutting quite a swath through Erf. If he survives and becomes independent, I can also see him conducting asymmetric warfare of the type that Parson once contemplated. (Book 3 - The Fabulous War!)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:29 pm

Sieggy wrote:So, what happens if you decrypt a Ruler? Is that side no longer 'Neutral', but resumes its previous state, only now the Ruler is Wanda's thrall?


The former Ruler would be on Wanda's Side and could not Rule. So no.

What about those JS / SR forces that are outside the city - will they disband if/when Slately is croaked as did Bea's forces outside her city? If Slately were decrypted, I would really doubt if they would just re-appear.


Klog 12 says they disband, and from BEa's death we know that is instnataneous. So yes, gone and not coming back.

And . . . would his father's decryption & conversion bring Trem to Wanda's side (though probably with very low loyalty, assuming he survives)?


No, Decryption affects corpses, not anyone down the former chain of command.

Or would, like Jillian, he simply become a barbarian?


Trammenis, assuming he becomes heir first, immediately become King. Portal would not disappear, since Jetstone Units still exist in Garrison. It is expected he would flee, in which case Portal disappears when the last JS unit is gone from Garrison.

Jillian went straight to Barbarian because FAQ fell last. Had FAQ fallen first, Jillian would become Ruler of the other two Cities, dspite distance, and then become Barbarian when the other two fell.

If Trem croaks and is decrypted, I can see him and Parson cutting quite a swath through Erf.


Actually, I would prefer to see Trammenis captured and Turned, instead of Decrypted. He is the kind of mind that Parson needs to keep him thinking. Tarmmenis is creative and subtle -- rare qualities in Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Swodaems » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:21 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Or would, like Jillian, he simply become a barbarian?


Trammenis, assuming he becomes heir first, immediately become King. Portal would not disappear, since Jetstone Units still exist in Garrison. It is expected he would flee, in which case Portal disappears when the last JS unit is gone from Garrison.

Jillian went straight to Barbarian because FAQ fell last. Had FAQ fallen first, Jillian would become Ruler of the other two Cities, dspite distance, and then become Barbarian when the other two fell.

Stanley's account of the fall favors the interpretation that Faq fell first. Notice how he uses the word 'we' when details Jack's capture. It implies that Wanda was with Stanley at the time when Jack was captured.

This fact is somewhat strange considering the fact that Jillian says Faq fell entirely within a turn. The battle Stanley described does not sound like something you shrug off and keep on going. That many Dwagons croaked probably means quite a few wounded.

I can think of a few ways to make sense of the story:
1. Jack was important enough a target that Stanley decided to go for him before he starved despite any added risk caused by fighting with wounded.
2. Jillian was exaggerating when she told Ansom the story.
3. An undefined mechanic led to the situation playing out that way. (I hate this option storywise. Erfworld's rules being hidden from us because they could prove to be plot points was okay when we were finding them out alongside Parson, but now that he can pull them out of his ass after they got shoved up there during his fifty-odd turns of offscreen study, we should know them too.)
4. There was another heir besides Jillian around. I'm gonna say either Wanda or Jack, with a strong swing towards Wanda because of the potential effect that reveal can have to the plot.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:58 pm

Hrmmm... he does say he took the other two cities second, doesn't he? Jillian may have just chosen not to indicate she was Queen for a little while, or maybe the Time Dilation was so severe that she was only Queen for a blink, or maybe it only declares a new Ruler on the beginning of the next Turn, when Upkeep is paid.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Schlock » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:34 pm

I just wanted to say that this is one of the most interesting concepts of fate and free will coexisting in the same system I've heard. I really liked it. Concise, yet fairly profound.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby cloudbreaker » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:20 am

Swodaems wrote:
Kreistor wrote:
Or would, like Jillian, he simply become a barbarian?


Trammenis, assuming he becomes heir first, immediately become King. Portal would not disappear, since Jetstone Units still exist in Garrison. It is expected he would flee, in which case Portal disappears when the last JS unit is gone from Garrison.

Jillian went straight to Barbarian because FAQ fell last. Had FAQ fallen first, Jillian would become Ruler of the other two Cities, dspite distance, and then become Barbarian when the other two fell.

Stanley's account of the fall favors the interpretation that Faq fell first. Notice how he uses the word 'we' when details Jack's capture. It implies that Wanda was with Stanley at the time when Jack was captured.

This fact is somewhat strange considering the fact that Jillian says Faq fell entirely within a turn. The battle Stanley described does not sound like something you shrug off and keep on going. That many Dwagons croaked probably means quite a few wounded.

I can think of a few ways to make sense of the story:
1. Jack was important enough a target that Stanley decided to go for him before he starved despite any added risk caused by fighting with wounded.
2. Jillian was exaggerating when she told Ansom the story.
3. An undefined mechanic led to the situation playing out that way. (I hate this option storywise. Erfworld's rules being hidden from us because they could prove to be plot points was okay when we were finding them out alongside Parson, but now that he can pull them out of his ass after they got shoved up there during his fifty-odd turns of offscreen study, we should know them too.)
4. There was another heir besides Jillian around. I'm gonna say either Wanda or Jack, with a strong swing towards Wanda because of the potential effect that reveal can have to the plot.

We know from Gobwin Knob events that if your capital gets taken while the ruler is in the field, the ruler becomes barbarian. Jillian lost her ruler and capital at the same time, so she became a barbarian capable of reclaiming her side. I imagine the other two cities became neutral (filled with barbarian units frozen in time), or at least non-Faq cities with barbarian units roaming the unclaimed streets. Stanley and Wanda would only need to get to them before the units ran out of upkeep

Anyway, that's my guess about the mechanics in play there.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:26 am

cloudbreaker wrote:We know from Gobwin Knob events that if your capital gets taken while the ruler is in the field, the ruler becomes barbarian. Jillian lost her ruler and capital at the same time, so she became a barbarian capable of reclaiming her side. I imagine the other two cities became neutral (filled with barbarian units frozen in time), or at least non-Faq cities with barbarian units roaming the unclaimed streets. Stanley and Wanda would only need to get to them before the units ran out of upkeep

Anyway, that's my guess about the mechanics in play there.


The fundamental difference between Banhammer and Stanley is that GK was Stanley's last City. When Banhammer died, two Cities were still under the FAQ flag, and Jillian was heir. She should inherit and one of the Cities become the new Capital immediately.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Beeskee » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:34 am

Only certain city sites, called capital sites, can become capitals. Jetstone has 2, Spacerock and another (I think it's called "Jetstone" but I'm not sure.) They took the Spacerock site from another side in a war. Faq only had the 1.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby fjolnir » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:49 am

GK has several, in various states of repair.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Oberon » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:16 pm

Kreistor wrote:Another comic that didn't need to be written. [Edit: COrrection. That should have read "Another comic that didn't need to be drawn".] At this point, did we really need a comic that, besides the one comment on the portal, only clarified Wanda's philosophy? This page could have been a text update, and then drawn for the Book release.
Kreistor wrote:Okay, my point should have been, "Why are we seeing this discussion?" [...] So what visually justified drawing this comic vs. writing it as a Text Update?
Text updates are not necessarily included in the print version. So, any information conveyed needs to be in a comic. The detail on portals, if left to the text updates, would be lost.
BLANDCorporatio wrote:Cool to know that a double dash through the MK is apparently a kosher thing in these forums.
Why shouldn't it be "a kosher thing"? Right now Parson is at the end of a tunnel, with several thinkamancers blocking that end and looking to escort him to their stronghold. His path of least resistance is down the tunnel right back to GK. That's a "double dash", is it not?
0beron the avatar thief wrote:[Nothing of import]
Die in a fire.
Swodaems wrote:Yeah, "guy with power realizes his enemies are humans and then takes advantage of that fact to achieve his goals" is a far better development. Getting all wangsty and going stupid makes for a horrible story, especially when the protagonist is rewarded for that behavior.
*facepalm* Wrong.

I'm in agreement with bpzinn.
bpzinn wrote:They are NOT waiting for Godot. That is a fiction you made up. They are securing the portal room, as ordered. They are ALSO, STILL perusing the ACTUAL GOALS for victory.
Parson feels that he needs to share the risks he orders units into. But that is a secondary goal to <Sheen>WINNING</Sheen>
Swodaems wrote:The problem is that this reveal stops the character's actions, in particular Parson's, from making internal story sense. It makes Parson look like he will potentially have no easy way to return to GK should he get thru the portal and succeed in taking the city. [...] If Parson does have good knowledge about portals and does not have a return plan in mind, then his reason for putting himself in that situation needs to be explained so the audience isn't left hanging in a state of cognitive dissonance.
Parson has explained all of this. He has decided that the moral act of placing units in harms way is only tolerable if he places himself in harms way also. Is this smart? Nope. Is this the decision the supreme warlord would make? Nope. This decision by Parson is intended to demonstrate that he:
A) Has decided that Erfworld is "real:;
B) Has come to grips with the facts that every military leader must accept, that his decisions place people in danger and get some of them killed;
C) Has decided that he cannot accept B without also placing himself in that same danger.

Is C a wise decision? Nope. It is rather stupid. It is a character development decision, not a Perfect Warlord decision.
Dinkum wrote:I agree that Parson has probably thought this action through to the nines before ever walking into GK's portal.
See now, no. Parson isn't acting rationally here. His intent is to share the danger of the units he is commanding. He does retain his canny nature, but he is hampering it with a personality drawback. This is contrary to assuming that Parson has thought through the consequences of his attempt to reach Jetstone through the MK. QED: Chewie and TGMTTA.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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