Book 2 – Page 70

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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby multilis » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:59 am

Oberon wrote:He does retain his canny nature, but he is hampering it with a personality drawback. This is contrary to assuming that Parson has thought through the consequences of his attempt to reach Jetstone through the MK.

Goes both ways, on consequences...

End of book 1: Parson wants to be a player rather than a piece. Being at a capital site makes it easier for him to become own side, and riskier for Charlie to pull a decapitation strike. (Stanley can promote Parson to Heir, or split him off as another kingdom if GK is about to fall. We know defense of GK is in some ways weaker now because it lacks natural allies:goblins)

He is currently only a Level 2 warlord. He can't fly on back of a dragon, he has limited ways to get to front line to gain XP. With XP his whole side is much stronger from his warlord bonus, and he personally is harder to kill.

Magic kingdom standoff is not entirely a problem as the Thinkers may give valuable intel and help/trade in future. Currently Parson only has backstabbing Charlie to trade with. He is also gaining assistance from probably master class Thinkomancer and Hippiemancer, which may help in future.

...

Parson did not have entire picture to work with in making his plans, but same with us. For all we know Charlie may have enough archons near Goblin Keep or Jetstone to take out city.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Red Piker » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:30 am

To everyone saying that going to the front is a stupid unessicary risk, call up one of your friends now on a cell phone, ask them to start up a game of Starcraft or Risk, now try to play it over the phone, tell me how well you do before your cell phone goes out. As CWL Parson cannot easily fight a war relaying things back and forth through Maggie who can only do so much each turn, he needs to be there to make quick decisions and make sure that his units don't make bad decisions on their own. People saying he's stranding himself. No he's not, once he promoted himself he gained move, and he can most likely mount things, being heavy seems to just negate the flight ability. Parson could easily ride a spidew like Ansom was at the start, or if they get Ace on their side have Ace make him a badass ride, Parson riding into battle on a flaming motorcycle covered in hamster insignias. You all know you want it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:22 am

Oberon wrote:
0beron the avatar thief wrote:[Nothing of import]
Die in a fire.

There's only one rule on this forum: don't be a dick.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby kreszantas » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:42 pm

This is for those who must be drinking from the batch of stupid-aid about Parson being up front is a bad idea. Answer yourself this how else is he going to level? He is already seen by Antium as "unfit". Antium is not the first unit to "object" or dissuade Parson's abilities. Look at Ossomer's comments in past comic, especially towards Slately and Trem, about how Parson operates. It is only those who have actually seen Parson in action that are devoted to him, the rest well they shrug their shoulders and :lol: internally.

Lateral thinking does not solve all the problems just as the pain hit Jack by being called a fool by Antium. Even Jack had to admit he did not fully comprehend why things were being done a certain way. This is where Wanda's explainations fit right in as this is Fate's mechanism for him to be there and how Jeffichew spell plays a role. Heck the scroll can merely be a get back to GK scroll if he considers that 'HOME'.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Swodaems » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:28 pm

kreszantas wrote:This is for those who must be drinking from the batch of stupid-aid about Parson being up front is a bad idea. Answer yourself this how else is he going to level? He is already seen by Antium as "unfit". Antium is not the first unit to "object" or dissuade Parson's abilities. Look at Ossomer's comments in past comic, especially towards Slately and Trem, about how Parson operates. It is only those who have actually seen Parson in action that are devoted to him, the rest well they shrug their shoulders and :lol: internally.

Lateral thinking does not solve all the problems just as the pain hit Jack by being called a fool by Antium. Even Jack had to admit he did not fully comprehend why things were being done a certain way. This is where Wanda's explainations fit right in as this is Fate's mechanism for him to be there and how Jeffichew spell plays a role. Heck the scroll can merely be a get back to GK scroll if he considers that 'HOME'.


Parson is the one drinking the Stupid-aid here. He is trying to conform to an ideal that he has created in his head about what a perfect chief warlord should be instead of intelligently craving himself out a nice cozy niche for himself. Yes, the Chief Warlord bonus is best used by a frontline, leveling, fighting unit, but nowhere is it said that the chief warlord HAS to be the one in charge. Parson should have realized by now that the chief warlord title is best tossed around to whichever unit can make the best use of it at the moment. He should have asked Stanley to give him a title like tactical officer or to tell the chief warlord that Parson is actually in charge of operations. Parson has stopped being someone trying to be a 'player' here and gone back to being just another piece. (On a side note, since "I won't send anybody to fight a battle I wouldn't fight in myself" seems so out of character for Parson, maybe it wasn't Parson who originally came up with it. Maybe that thought came from the SPW spell. Marie seems like the kind of person who would stuff a person full of suggestions in hopes of improving them. Of course, the problem with that idea is that you might end up with some pitiful creature resembling the crowned golem from Terry Pratchett's "Feet of Clay". (I would not be at all surprised if someone cracked open Parson's head and dozens of suggestion scrolls containing the hopes and dreams of all of Erfworld's failed predictomancers came flowing out.))

Parson also has next to zilch experience actually using that sword he is carrying as part of an actual battle. (He did smack around a lone wienerrammer and its rider with it, but that is a far cry from the fight he is about to encounter.) The great ending that Issac the thinkamancer sensed may be Marie, Janis, and the thinkamancers seeing Parson trip over his own units and realizing "Oh shit, we summoned an incompetant idiot." Personal fighting is not Parson's forte and he should know it.

Also, It's not just Erfworld characters who see Parson as unfit here. Most of the forum goers here have played strategy games or RPGS and some even have actual military experience. We know an idiot move when we see one. We can tell when someone is acting like an idiot. Most of us could be doing a better job as Erfworld's 'fated one' than Parson. (And possibly a better job at living in stupidworld too. It is somewhat sad that Stanley said that he didn't want any morality cases during Wanda's casting of the SPW spell. The limition that Wanda had of needing to find someone who wanted to come meant that she was scraping the bottom of the barrel and looking thru candidates who lacked the basic coping skills to deal with their own world.)

Lastly, for those who think that Parson will have better access to information in the middle of combat, BWAHH HAHAHHAHAHH. Oh, you're absolutly right, he is going to have access to all sorts of knowledge there that he couldn't get otherwise. In fact, his poor little mind is simply going to be overwhelmed by the flood of sensory information coming in. Realistic battle situations are messy places to be. Remember, time flows at the same rate within the confines of a hex. Parson isn't going to be able to make calm rational decisions. He is going to find himself distracted by all kinds of things.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby kreszantas » Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:15 pm

Swodaems wrote:
kreszantas wrote:This is for those who must be drinking from the batch of stupid-aid about Parson being up front is a bad idea. Answer yourself this how else is he going to level? He is already seen by Antium as "unfit". Antium is not the first unit to "object" or dissuade Parson's abilities. Look at Ossomer's comments in past comic, especially towards Slately and Trem, about how Parson operates. It is only those who have actually seen Parson in action that are devoted to him, the rest well they shrug their shoulders and :lol: internally.

Lateral thinking does not solve all the problems just as the pain hit Jack by being called a fool by Antium. Even Jack had to admit he did not fully comprehend why things were being done a certain way. This is where Wanda's explainations fit right in as this is Fate's mechanism for him to be there and how Jeffichew spell plays a role. Heck the scroll can merely be a get back to GK scroll if he considers that 'HOME'.


Parson is the one drinking the Stupid-aid here. He is trying to conform to an ideal that he has created in his head about what a perfect chief warlord should be instead of intelligently craving himself out a nice cozy niche for himself. Yes, the Chief Warlord bonus is best used by a frontline, leveling, fighting unit, but nowhere is it said that the chief warlord HAS to be the one in charge. Parson should have realized by now that the chief warlord title is best tossed around to whichever unit can make the best use of it at the moment. He should have asked Stanley to give him a title like tactical officer or to tell the chief warlord that Parson is actually in charge of operations. Parson has stopped being someone trying to be a 'player' here and gone back to being just another piece. (On a side note, since "I won't send anybody to fight a battle I wouldn't fight in myself" seems so out of character for Parson, maybe it wasn't Parson who originally came up with it. Maybe that thought came from the SPW spell. Marie seems like the kind of person who would stuff a person full of suggestions in hopes of improving them. Of course, the problem with that idea is that you might end up with some pitiful creature resembling the crowned golem from Terry Pratchett's "Feet of Clay". (I would not be at all surprised if someone cracked open Parson's head and dozens of suggestion scrolls containing the hopes and dreams of all of Erfworld's failed predictomancers came flowing out.))

Parson also has next to zilch experience actually using that sword he is carrying as part of an actual battle. (He did smack around a lone wienerrammer and its rider with it, but that is a far cry from the fight he is about to encounter.) The great ending that Issac the thinkamancer sensed may be Marie, Janis, and the thinkamancers seeing Parson trip over his own units and realizing "Oh shit, we summoned an incompetant idiot." Personal fighting is not Parson's forte and he should know it.

Also, It's not just Erfworld characters who see Parson as unfit here. Most of the forum goers here have played strategy games or RPGS and some even have actual military experience. We know an idiot move when we see one. We can tell when someone is acting like an idiot. Most of us could be doing a better job as Erfworld's 'fated one' than Parson. (And possibly a better job at living in stupidworld too. It is somewhat sad that Stanley said that he didn't want any morality cases during Wanda's casting of the SPW spell. The limition that Wanda had of needing to find someone who wanted to come meant that she was scraping the bottom of the barrel and looking thru candidates who lacked the basic coping skills to deal with their own world.)

Lastly, for those who think that Parson will have better access to information in the middle of combat, BWAHH HAHAHHAHAHH. Oh, you're absolutly right, he is going to have access to all sorts of knowledge there that he couldn't get otherwise. In fact, his poor little mind is simply going to be overwhelmed by the flood of sensory information coming in. Realistic battle situations are messy places to be. Remember, time flows at the same rate within the confines of a hex. Parson isn't going to be able to make calm rational decisions. He is going to find himself distracted by all kinds of things.


Wow, you have painted yourself into the literaery corner by this diatribe. Do you not think that some of us also have more years of RPG experiences than some of you have been alive? The mechanics of the "game" simply dictate a specific set of conditions to be upheld to maintain loyality and duty of units involved within that unit's side. The decrypted are merely mechanisms that bring this to the front. Which is better? Having a CWL in the front or front stacks where they are prone to be the priortity target by ANY side when they are discovered within the hex, or as every unit has an issue with realtime decisions even if they are a superior commander (Look at Artimis failed assult of the siege and Sylvia). There is a risk/reward for this action of course, but the core of the arguement is still as what Jeffichew stated it was... Free will or be bound as a piece as you state within the system. Now maybe you can wrap your mind around that portion of the puzzle. Its not that Parson has drank the stupid-aid, its your suspension of belief (you not bought into the excuse) that is the real issue.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Swodaems » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:50 pm

kreszantas wrote:
Swodaems wrote:
kreszantas wrote:This is for those who must be drinking from the batch of stupid-aid about Parson being up front is a bad idea. Answer yourself this how else is he going to level? He is already seen by Antium as "unfit". Antium is not the first unit to "object" or dissuade Parson's abilities. Look at Ossomer's comments in past comic, especially towards Slately and Trem, about how Parson operates. It is only those who have actually seen Parson in action that are devoted to him, the rest well they shrug their shoulders and :lol: internally.

Lateral thinking does not solve all the problems just as the pain hit Jack by being called a fool by Antium. Even Jack had to admit he did not fully comprehend why things were being done a certain way. This is where Wanda's explainations fit right in as this is Fate's mechanism for him to be there and how Jeffichew spell plays a role. Heck the scroll can merely be a get back to GK scroll if he considers that 'HOME'.


Parson is the one drinking the Stupid-aid here. He is trying to conform to an ideal that he has created in his head about what a perfect chief warlord should be instead of intelligently craving himself out a nice cozy niche for himself. Yes, the Chief Warlord bonus is best used by a frontline, leveling, fighting unit, but nowhere is it said that the chief warlord HAS to be the one in charge. Parson should have realized by now that the chief warlord title is best tossed around to whichever unit can make the best use of it at the moment. He should have asked Stanley to give him a title like tactical officer or to tell the chief warlord that Parson is actually in charge of operations. Parson has stopped being someone trying to be a 'player' here and gone back to being just another piece. (On a side note, since "I won't send anybody to fight a battle I wouldn't fight in myself" seems so out of character for Parson, maybe it wasn't Parson who originally came up with it. Maybe that thought came from the SPW spell. Marie seems like the kind of person who would stuff a person full of suggestions in hopes of improving them. Of course, the problem with that idea is that you might end up with some pitiful creature resembling the crowned golem from Terry Pratchett's "Feet of Clay". (I would not be at all surprised if someone cracked open Parson's head and dozens of suggestion scrolls containing the hopes and dreams of all of Erfworld's failed predictomancers came flowing out.))

Parson also has next to zilch experience actually using that sword he is carrying as part of an actual battle. (He did smack around a lone wienerrammer and its rider with it, but that is a far cry from the fight he is about to encounter.) The great ending that Issac the thinkamancer sensed may be Marie, Janis, and the thinkamancers seeing Parson trip over his own units and realizing "Oh shit, we summoned an incompetant idiot." Personal fighting is not Parson's forte and he should know it.

Also, It's not just Erfworld characters who see Parson as unfit here. Most of the forum goers here have played strategy games or RPGS and some even have actual military experience. We know an idiot move when we see one. We can tell when someone is acting like an idiot. Most of us could be doing a better job as Erfworld's 'fated one' than Parson. (And possibly a better job at living in stupidworld too. It is somewhat sad that Stanley said that he didn't want any morality cases during Wanda's casting of the SPW spell. The limition that Wanda had of needing to find someone who wanted to come meant that she was scraping the bottom of the barrel and looking thru candidates who lacked the basic coping skills to deal with their own world.)

Lastly, for those who think that Parson will have better access to information in the middle of combat, BWAHH HAHAHHAHAHH. Oh, you're absolutly right, he is going to have access to all sorts of knowledge there that he couldn't get otherwise. In fact, his poor little mind is simply going to be overwhelmed by the flood of sensory information coming in. Realistic battle situations are messy places to be. Remember, time flows at the same rate within the confines of a hex. Parson isn't going to be able to make calm rational decisions. He is going to find himself distracted by all kinds of things.


Wow, you have painted yourself into the literaery corner by this diatribe. Do you not think that some of us also have more years of RPG experiences than some of you have been alive? The mechanics of the "game" simply dictate a specific set of conditions to be upheld to maintain loyality and duty of units involved within that unit's side. The decrypted are merely mechanisms that bring this to the front. Which is better? Having a CWL in the front or front stacks where they are prone to be the priortity target by ANY side when they are discovered within the hex, or as every unit has an issue with realtime decisions even if they are a superior commander (Look at Artimis failed assult of the siege and Sylvia). There is a risk/reward for this action of course, but the core of the arguement is still as what Jeffichew stated it was... Free will or be bound as a piece as you state within the system. Now maybe you can wrap your mind around that portion of the puzzle. Its not that Parson has drank the stupid-aid, its your suspension of belief (you not bought into the excuse) that is the real issue.


From what I see, you seem to have taken me quoting you for the simple purpose getting in your stupid-aid joke personally. I'm sorry about that. My fault really. When someone uses a phrase I want to copy, I have this tendancy to want to quote them either as a means of giving credit or to make it simpler for someone reading my post to figure out where the phrase came from. However, if you want to have a forum argument slam battle, I am willing and ready. Let the Fun commence.

After going thru your post, I find 3 issues I need to address.

1. You have a nice point about Loyalty and Duty. The problem with it is that we haven't seen Parson thinking about his relationship with the side in those terms. (He has shown us thinking about what he is bound to do by loyalty and duty, but not thinking about minmaxing the side's loyalty and duty. We don't even know if he has the slightest clue about the decrypted's loyalty problems.) As such, if his actions do end up granting him more status in the eyes of the units of his side, then it is merely an incidental gain that he has achieved by luck. If he had shown the slightest interest in trying to manipulate the side's loyalty stats then I might be willing to credit his recent actions to his intelligence instead of considering him stupid, but lucky enough to get away with stupidity.

2. You say that biggest question about the reason behind Parson's decision to go to spacerock is the free will versus fate conumdrum. However you have to realize that this is merely a story that Rob is telling us. When the free will vs. fate question comes up in that context, it changes entirely. It becomes an issue deciding if the actions of the character in question fit with our expectations of his behavior from what we know about him or if his actions are the result of his actions being predetermined by a writer who then proceeded to characterize the character in such a way that people reading the story and putting themselves in the character's shoes would feel as if they were forced to walk down a particular path instead of one of their choosing. In essence, my point is that, right now, Parson's attitudes and actions do not feel like they are the actions and attitudes the Parson we were seeing before would actually make/have. I'm not feeling the old Parson at all in the new Parson. (Parson was introduced to us as an overly critical thinker. Lately he has lost that feel, becoming something else in the process. As I can determine no cause for this change that actually would prove sufficient to work on the character we saw before, I am left with the feeling I am reading a railroad plotted story instead of a well characterized, thought out one. (I have already stated why I feel that the causes that we have seen so far should have proved insufficient to motivate Parson in this thread in an earlier post.))

3. Lastly, you are entirely correct when you say that my unwillingness to suspend my disbelief for the sake of enjoying is a problem. In fact, it's the story's problem. When a story's reader loses his suspension of disbelief, it is because the story has done or not done something that caused the suspension to collapse. When that happens, it is in the author's best interest to find out exactly what factors in the story lead to the collapse. I also know for a fact that Rob actually does read these forums, even if he only posts to open them. I am elicting my opinions about the story here in the hopes that Rob will be able to pull some useful information out of them, not to try and poison a portion of Erfworld's fanbase against his style of story-telling. (Forum goers usually make up a small percentage of a comic's readership, and among those that do go to the forum, lurkers usually far out number posters. Every perspective an author gets on his story can help him refine it by giving him knowledge of how a person other than himself sees it, but unfortunately most people come here to see what pop culture references they missed.)

(PS. If we are indeed going going to get into a slam battle, then I feel the need to critique your response in the spirit of friendly competition. [cruel humor] If you think I'm in a corner, then maybe you should try and push in an attack instead of merely letting me walk out of it. All I'm seeing from you is some ad hominem wrapped around a poorly emphasized point and an attempt to change the focus of the argument from a question about Parson's intelligence to a question either about the Fate/Free Will debate or to my intelligence/experience. I'm sure you can do better than this. Please show me your best next time.[/cruel humor] [crueler humor] Oh, and by the way, since you bring up the question of my age in your post, I thought I had better provide it. I'm 24. Does this mean that you are old enough to be my father, my grandfather, or my great-grandfather? [/crueler humor])

(PPS. Somebody who uses a phrase that references a mass suicide by a cult criticising me for not suspending my disbelief and jumping on the bandwagon is absolutely hilarious. So who is the Jim Jones that you want me to follow? You or Rob?)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby 0beron » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:56 pm

It seems there's some confusion about the city zones of Spacerock, both in their definition and their current status. So while I'm sure this has been said in bits and pieces a few times, here is a comprehensive explanation of Spacerock (and city zones in general) as we know them.
Book 2, Text Update 25 wrote:Spacerock had dungeons, but no tunnel zone at all. Instead, it had an unusually ornate and well-defended Garrison. Its outer structure was not merely a wall, but a full twelve-story palace complex of rooms and chambers.

At its center, a vaulted roof of smoked glass panels covered what would be the open courtyard in a more typical Level 5 design. This formed a cavernous area they called the atrium.

To simplify: For "outer zones", Spacerock has Airspace and Outer Walls, but lacks Tunnels.
For Garrison zones, it has a Tower, Dungeons, and Atrium (which is the Courtyard). The "inner walls" are not a separate Garrison zone, they are a physical barrier that must be overcome by any units in Outer Walls attempting to take the Courtyard. In a typical city, flying units in Airspace can attack the Courtyard without the inference from the inner walls, but Spacerock is specially fortified with a similar barrier above the Atrium.
If this descriptive explanation is confusing, refer to this handy City Zone wiki page

At present, to the best of our knowledge, these are the conditions in each of the 3 Garrison zones.
Atrium (Courtyard): Held by GK. Artemis's stack has been defeated, and Tramennis's escort is/has retreating/retreated into the Tower.
Dungeon: In contest, but rapidly falling to GK and decryption. Portal Room held by GK.
Tower: Packed with Jetstone units and under Siege from exterior by Purple Dwagons, expected to fall shortly. No GK units present.

Given the current situation, the Tower falling has a few possible results:
  • Kills Slately. Death of an Overlord in the absence of an heir ENDS the side. This disbands all units in the field and turns all of their cities NEUTRAL, freezing all units in cities. Presumably, a neutral city has no portal either.
  • Slately escapes before/during the fall. Tower falls to GK ownership, only dungeon remains in contest.
  • Some units survive the tower falling, meaning the Tower does NOT change to GK ownership. (that is assuming that a ruined tower still occupies/creates a Tower zone.)

Though the Tower and Dungeon are both still in Jetstone hands, there is a chance that the Tower alone falling will end Jetstone as a side. Therefore, if Wanda wants to ENSURE that the portal will remain open for Parson, she must somehow stop Lady Sylvia. In lieu of that, she must call back her Dungeon units and pray that Slately survives past the Tower-fall so that Dungeon remains contested.

A quite side note that caught my attention:
Kreistor wrote:
Sieggy wrote:So, what happens if you decrypt a Ruler? Is that side no longer 'Neutral', but resumes its previous state, only now the Ruler is Wanda's thrall?

The former Ruler would be on Wanda's Side and could not Rule. So no.

While I agree with Kreistor, I DO have to wonder if the Decrypted Ruler could later be ordered to form a splinter side at his former Capital side. And would doing so break/weaken the Turnamancy aspect of the 'Pliers? All very vague/hypothetical/unlikely to occur, but still an interesting thought.

Now as for Parson's motives and the question of the "big picture", I have this to say.
Marie believes that Parson's purpose and Fate is to "break" war for Erfworld and bring peace. This could mean there are external influences on his behavior from two sources.
  • Fate itself seems to encourage it's fulfillment by tipping the odds and creating neigh impossible situations. In hindsight, we may realize that several aspects of the Spacerock battle are just that, slanted odds that provide Parson the chance to move closer to his Fate of ending war.
  • If Marie had any hand in the creation of the SPW scroll (and we have seen ample suggestion that she did) her desire for him to end war could itself be a form of suggestion on him, perhaps "tainting" his Duty to make him take advantage of opportunities like this.
Given what we have seen from Parson so far, I agree that he has a more complex plan than he is letting on. He may not have all the steps lined out, but he likely has some endgame/goal in mind for Spacerock (or even something more obscure) and knows he needs to be on the front to improvise and get to that goal. The same way we was "forced" by his Duty to try the Volcano Uncroaking once he came up with the idea.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby kreszantas » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:42 am

[quote="Swodaems"] removed the 940 word reply to ease the poor abused server from having to process it again[quote]
Well on points 1 and 2 of your post. My only comment in part 1 is that Ossomer is being set up to be the "test case" on your decrypted loyalty issue (many posters have the same reservations, that he will either turn or wimp out when the time comes). Have you had a behavioural statistics class? I am not attacking you in any sense, but I am asking viewpoint questions. All I am attempting to do is expand your current thought process to include more variables that none of us have considered, in that way we all benefit. The issue in fact with the "story" is that none of the readers know all the rules to the game. It is just like life, sometimes you don't learn that rule until it is too late to do anything about it. How many times have you heard "I can't believe this is happening" when it is going on all around them, what ever the IT is. I also have serious issues with Parson's character but since we human's have tons of character flaws, do you not think they would not surface in Erfworld? You are also bounding your argument around the SPW spell, well Stanley mucked that one up with not getting the support plan. The whole journey through the MK is just that the way to introduce the "free will verse fatalism" dichotomy that had been lurking around for several months if not close to a year, since it was alluded to at the end of book 1 when Parson tossed the sword into the lava. (Parson never has been the SAME OLD Parson since then).

Then lastly part 3 we both agree on. One of us is the acute and the other is the obtuse angle forming a triangle. However all of us have different levels of intelligence and wisdom thus those of us whom are wiser would hold their tounge, observe and formulate other theorems that could actually regain at least a mild level of speculation, if not, than your much like our Canadian friend that has a complete different set of cultural values, once Kriestor established that, I have had no issue with him. Basically I wanted to know your point of view, but I didn't want a novel. Tak a lesson be concise it's easier that way.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:47 am

Oberon wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:Cool to know that a double dash through the MK is apparently a kosher thing in these forums.
Why shouldn't it be "a kosher thing"? Right now Parson is at the end of a tunnel, with several thinkamancers blocking that end and looking to escort him to their stronghold. His path of least resistance is down the tunnel right back to GK. That's a "double dash", is it not?


Not a planned one though. Parson wasn't expecting the GMtTA to prevent the passage.

Also, the double dash was not caused by the actions of GK uni... uhm, wait a sec, it kinda was. Dang, it's almost like they don't want Parson in Spacerock or something.

Oberon wrote:
0beron the avatar thief wrote:[Nothing of import]
Die in a fire.


He's a fire elemental actually.

Oberon wrote:I'm in agreement with bpzinn.


They make a very good job of summarizing what the long term goals of GK are. And I'm not disputing those. What l I'm saying is that a short term goal (bringing Parson to Spacerock) is problematic, because of oversights on the part of GK's expeditionary force.

Swodaems wrote:(PPS. Somebody who uses a phrase that references a mass suicide by a cult criticising me for not suspending my disbelief and jumping on the bandwagon is absolutely hilarious. So who is the Jim Jones that you want me to follow? You or Rob?)


Hee-larious! :lol:

I do agree with kreszantas that brevity is the soul of wit, but I did find several bits of your post genuinely funny (and intentionally so). Are you a witty undead?

kreszantas wrote:Well on points 1 and 2 of your post. My only comment in part 1 is that Ossomer is being set up to be the "test case" on your decrypted loyalty issue (many posters have the same reservations, that he will either turn or wimp out when the time comes). Have you had a behavioural statistics class?


I fail to see how this addresses Swodaems' claim that Parson had no "intelligent" or "character-based" reason to push forward.

I agree with you that Parson has not been the same old Parson way since ending of Book 1. And that's the key here. Parson doesn't go to Spacerock to maximize Loyalty, or leadership bonus, or improve communication, or any gamer reason. That's the point.

Parson, the Gamer, has sent Bogroll to his death. Bogroll, a naive gentle giant with the mind of a child, the first creature from Erfworld to welcome Parson as a friend. Misty, another friend, also died in Parson's arms; while for less directly-gamer reasons, it adds to the guilt. Finally, Parson has become death, the destroyer of worlds when he cooked up the uncroaked volcano. All the while realizing that the little people that kill each other at his command are people, with all the baggage that people have.

So Parson ended up depressed for the Summer Updates, and mostly out of the loop. He's not a "critical thinker" (Swodaems, you mean tactical thinker?) anymore because he is disgusted with what that has made him make others do. This wound is cut open again when he orders the harvesting of the Dwagons, because once more it is he that orders his units to put themselves at risk. Given this history, it is not entirely surprising that Parson decides it would be fair if he himself shared in the risk of battle.

There's no gamer reason in that calculation. Only an idea of justice, atonement, trial, experience with small e and x and no points.

And in my opinion, it is perfectly in character, that is, the character developed organically so far. A better question is, is the new Parson still a good warlord? My guess is NO, precisely because a good warlord understands that risking some often saves the many, and learns to sleep at night with that knowledge. However, Parson's development is not over. It may be that in the end he becomes something else than a Warlord, or a better Warlord because of this experience.

kreszantas wrote:The issue in fact with the "story" is that none of the readers know all the rules to the game. It is just like life, sometimes you don't learn that rule until it is too late to do anything about it. How many times have you heard "I can't believe this is happening" when it is going on all around them, what ever the IT is.


The issue in stories is more like how new rules are introduced. It's not ok for a Plot Point to hinge on some newly invented "rule"(*), or some "rule" that was conveniently forgotten by everyone in the story world. Where "rule" is akin to a law of physics, not an ambush party waiting in that room you thought safe because your informant (who's actually a mole) told you it was safe. And not a law that the King just made up to allow him to tax beards and scabs.

As always, there are exceptions or balancing acts.

*: unless the story is about the CERN collider opening a gateway to Azathoth.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:52 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:What I do know is that Parson expressed desire to get to Spacerock, and that his underlings expressed a desire to see him there. Given this step (regardless of what the ultimate purpose is), it is odd to act against it.


You are ignoring is that Parson and his underlings had different reasons for wanting him to reach Spacerock.

Parson wanted to reach Spacerock so he can be with his troops, ostensibly for emotional reasons. (Apparently everyone on the forum interpreted his "This one can be me" speech as a desire to be there for this particular battle. If we assume that he knew the portal would close, the obvious conclusion is that he was actually deciding to be with them long-term. Nothing on that page contradicts the latter interpretation.)

Wanda and Jack wanted Parson to reach Spacerock to help them win. So as the others are pointing out, if they can take out GK's biggest enemy without him, that reason becomes moot and it's safer for him if he's not in Spacerock. They don't share his emotional desire to have him with them, and he didn't tell them of it, so there is nothing disobedient or reckless about taking an action that may stymie it.

What is new is that Jack now knows that Parson is at the Spacerock end of the tunnel and is facing an MK threat. Combine that with the portal closing and you have the "oops" moment.


Incidentally, I can see where Swodaems is coming from in complaining that Parson's decision was the output of a black box. But personally, I attribute it to being forced back into Chief Warlord-ship - I saw his earlier isolation as a conscious effort to "not care", using the excuse of lacking authority. Then he lost that crutch and had to stop sulking.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:58 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:You are ignoring is that Parson and his underlings had different reasons for wanting him to reach Spacerock.

Parson wanted to reach Spacerock so he can be with his troops, ostensibly for emotional reasons. {...}

Wanda and Jack wanted Parson to reach Spacerock to help them win. So as the others are pointing out, if they can take out GK's biggest enemy without him, that reason becomes moot and it's safer for him if he's not in Spacerock.


So what I understand from that is, that it's excusable nobody thought the Portal might close before Parson got there, because it wasn't that big a deal if he makes it or not. Which still sounds strange.

Look, the underlings (Wanda and Jack) might not desperately want Parson to be in Spacerock. But why should they be careless about his way there?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Oberon » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:49 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:*: unless the story is about the CERN collider opening a gateway to Azathoth.
Isn't every story about the CERN collider destroying the planet Earth?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:31 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Look, the underlings (Wanda and Jack) might not desperately want Parson to be in Spacerock. But why should they be careless about his way there?


It isn't careless to overlook a little detail of the Rules that is only important because of a single exception. No other Unit in the entire existence of Erfworld could have been placed in this situation, so that they missed it only means they aren't looking for these details.

Plus, it's only important because Parson is suffering an unexpected result of being in the MK. The Thinkamancers are blocking him without killing him. Parson expected to be through or dead, not in Limbo. The run should have been 2 minutes and through, or dead and GK needs a new CW. This "delayed until Parson can fight his way past" was not a foreseeable state, and would not have been seriously considered.

Further that state only became known to Jack the moment he spoke to Maggie. Now that they know about his situation, they can think about the problems, and they now know the danger they put him in within a reasonable number of minutes of being able to put it all together.

I simply cannot fault Wanda and Jack for this oversight.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby sleepymancer » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:04 am

Kreistor wrote:Plus, it's only important because Parson is suffering an unexpected result of being in the MK. The Thinkamancers are blocking him without killing him. Parson expected to be through or dead, not in Limbo. The run should have been 2 minutes and through, or dead and GK needs a new CW. This "delayed until Parson can fight his way past" was not a foreseeable state, and would not have been seriously considered.


Well, arguably it was somewhat considered, i think kill or capture were both judged to be probable outcomes if Parson entered the MK. So, they built the tunnel :p

Yes, I'm being facetious. In truth, I agree entirely that they had no way of expecting this kind of reception at the portal out, and that is where and why the unravelling of schemes has begun for them. Still, they try things...



Incidentally, and this isn't the place for it I know, but what happens on a triwizard lincup if two of the 'mancers are of the same type? What happens if it is three thinkamancers. in the playground. could they do something to dent charlie and the 'dish??
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby kreszantas » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:46 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Swodaems wrote:
kreszantas wrote:Well on points 1 and 2 of your post. My only comment in part 1 is that Ossomer is being set up to be the "test case" on your decrypted loyalty issue (many posters have the same reservations, that he will either turn or wimp out when the time comes). Have you had a behavioural statistics class?


I fail to see how this addresses Swodaems' claim that Parson had no "intelligent" or "character-based" reason to push forward.


With the way Rob has presented this part you can tie it to the way Wanda tosses around the statement that "Parson is an instrument of fate". Does that validate the change in coarse? Probably not for most readers, it's to ambigious, however it has enough wiggle room to make changes to the yet undefined plot. Can anyone of us really get that part of the plot that Parson's real decisions are being guided by fate (that he has lost the one key ingredient of being Parson) to the point it dillutes the story? Again it's possible. The kicker could be in the last order he gave Maggie, if I die make sure the next CWL gets on killing Jillian's party. Lastly we still have to remember that GK is doing all of this stuff OFF turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby 1Luv » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:34 pm

I think people have forgotten that even if Parson gets 'stuck' over with Wanda and Jack, he still hasn't lost the ability to communicate and command. They have MAggie for thinkamancy, and he upgraded himself form a garrison unit to one that could travel, thus allowing him to leave cities. While still a heavy unit(He couldn't fly on a dwagon still most likely), he can just walk back to GK over many turns.

Also, I agree with above. this isn't a 'smart' decision on Parson's part, this is an emotional one.He's thinking 'I don't want to be chief warlord and command people that might die, but if I'm stuck with it, i'ma be there so I can see the effect of my commands'.

Remember Parson isn't a cold-hearted, ruthless Monster. He's a human from stupidworld that, while he loved wargames, had friends and had some form of empathy. It wasn't like he was a ruthless investment banker:P
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby auraseer » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:21 pm

That's weird. I tried to post that comment yesterday, when we still had less than a page of comments. Why did it wait a day and then show up five pages in?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Beeskee » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:03 pm

Oberon wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:*: unless the story is about the CERN collider opening a gateway to Azathoth.
Isn't every story about the CERN collider destroying the planet Earth?



Isn't it funny how all those stories conveniently omit the fact that cosmic ray collisions with our atmosphere have been going on for billions of years at much higher energy levels?


(Edit: I love the webcam one.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Dr Pepper » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:04 pm

1Luv wrote:I think people have forgotten that even if Parson gets 'stuck' over with Wanda and Jack, he still hasn't lost the ability to communicate and command. They have MAggie for thinkamancy, and he upgraded himself form a garrison unit to one that could travel, thus allowing him to leave cities. While still a heavy unit(He couldn't fly on a dwagon still most likely), he can just walk back to GK over many turns.

Also, I agree with above. this isn't a 'smart' decision on Parson's part, this is an emotional one.He's thinking 'I don't want to be chief warlord and command people that might die, but if I'm stuck with it, i'ma be there so I can see the effect of my commands'.

Remember Parson isn't a cold-hearted, ruthless Monster. He's a human from stupidworld that, while he loved wargames, had friends and had some form of empathy. It wasn't like he was a ruthless investment banker:P


Heh, in the comic Endstone, which is in the "forgot this is all a total immersion simulation game" genre, one frustrated character is informed (by a sysadmin playing god) that in the real world he is actually a "man of power", an "Investment Banker" and that the key to success is to reconnect with that personality. Sure enough, with a mixture of financial fraud and ruthless exploitation, he's able to destroy society. And the resulting chaos gives him the opportunity to track down and acquire the rare magic stones the grant supernatural power.
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