Book 2 – Page 70

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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby boegiboe » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:44 pm

It makes a lot of game-sense for a capital to lose its portal. Say you have a good solid fight for a capital and win it. The enemy casters probably fought to the finish...but if not to the death, you don't want to lose them to the portal, right? The portal is only a refuge for the clearly overwhelmed side's casters to flee rather than risk croaking. If you win fair and square (like Stanley smashing Faq?), then you should be able to cap the casters you don't have to croak.

Which would be why Jack, Wanda, and other casters would all know this fact of portalmancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby bpzinn » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:49 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
zuche wrote:I don't see the issue. Antium didn't see the priority. Jack was caught up in the plan. Wanda's a fatalist. They're people in the middle of a war, not gamers playing at one from armchairs.


Exactly. It's all very real to them. You do not risk your CWL anymore than he wants to (and getting stranded in the MK was not the risk he wanted to take). You do not sit around in a portal room waiting for someone friendly when there's a chance that portal will close. That YOU don't see the issue is understandable. That THEY don't see the issue is strange.


You seem to be making several wrong assumptions with your reasoning...

Personally, with the knowledge this strip gives, going back in time, it would have STILL consider bringing down the tower a good move until Jack had stuck his head the portal and received info on Parsons situation.

1. Getting PGLH into Spacerock is NOT an Instant win condition. It will considerably improve the condition on the ground, but is not a win in itself.

2. Parson faces potential danger in The Magic Kingdom. However ALSO will be subject to potential danger in Spacerock itself. Which danger is worse is not obvious.

3. The warlords can be assumed to know about portal mechanics. Where to you find support for the notion that the warlords are aware of Magic Kingdom politics vis a vis Parson? As far as we know he is the only unit able to enter the Magic Kingdom, but denied entrance by those inside. The warlord have not been informed that the magic kingdom actually poses a threat to Parson, and would have not counted the possibility of Parson being croaked or captured there. Warlords are not Casters, to think the way a caster thinks. Myself, I thing banning Parson does more to undermine their neutrality than uphold it, and in the end, will bite them in the ass.

4. If the tower falls, and this kills Stately before there is an heir, enemy side falls, city goes barbarian. Win. Yes, this might expose Parson to a little more danger as he does a 180 and hustles back to GK. How much danger depends on how far into the trip he was. At less then halfway, no added danger at all. It also avoids any danger he might face in Spacerock.

The issue is NOT "You do not risk your CWL anymore than he WANTS to," it is "You do not risk your CWL anymore than he NEEDS to"

5. I do not knot that the danger Parson may face in turning back to GK is worse than the danger he may face Spacerock itself. Neither did anyone there until Jacks reconnaissance. All this was unknown. All other ways to achieve your Win conditions WITHOUT Parson physically there ARE still valid, and should NOT be discounted just because Parson entered the Magic Kingdom.

The thinking that the danger that Parson subjected himself to by entering the MK should not be "wasted" by pursuing another avenue to victory seems to be an example of the "Sunk Costs" fallacy.

6. GK has NOT captured all Garrison areas. Per panel 3, page 70, the garrison areas of "Inner Walls" and "Dungeon" still have enemy units that have NOT been croaked or captured. Thus absent number 4 (above), bringing down the tower may well make capturing the garrison (and this the city) inevitable, but will NOT automatically capture the city and negate its Capital Status.

6a. Kreistor was wrong when he refuted you. Antium was referring to the King in the Tower. If he was referring to capturing the garrison, then after the tower fall, they could simply WAIT to conquer the other garrison areas until AFTER the portal problem was resolved.

6b. This presents a discrepancy between Antium's comments on panel 3, and 12 of the current Comic. If felling the tower will close the portal on it's own (presumably by capturing the city), why is he suggesting taking out the other garrison areas in the first place? Either the loss of the tower can deadline the portal WITHOUT the city changing hands, and/or the downing the tower is NOT the guaranteed victory panel 12 seems to indicate.

7. I think the tower gambit is a excellent lateral thinking because it offers MANY avenues to victory, and no matter how many fail, you only need to succeed ONCE.

7a. Stately croaks w/o heir with tower. VICTORY.
7b. 'Tower' becomes 'rubble where tower used to be. Tower 'o' Rubble is no longer part of the garrison. Units encamped there are no longer IN the garrison, and are NOT keeping the city from being captured.
7c. Tower 'o' Rubble is still part of the garrison, but cannot be accessed due to being rubble. Effects as of 7b.
7d. The tower ruins are still habitable and part of the garrison, but the fall of the tower inflicted massive damage to nearly everyone inside. Capturing the garrison becomes very easy.
7e. as 7b - 7d, but Stately is still in the city, possibly with a jetpack or magic carpet. The garrison falls. Staely is now trussed up in shackles. See 7a.

So yes, right up until Jack learned that Parson was pinned down right outside the portal to Spacerock to danger of being taken into the custody of the GMTTA, as Jack, I would have still considered bringing down the tower worthwhile.

P.S. If Charley and Stately actually trusted and communicated with each other, they could really mess up Parsons day by getting Stately and/or Tramennis (made Heir) out of the city and withdrawing all units OUT of the garrison, and giving Parson a victory that traps him in MK. (Depending on how hard it is to just change the Capital back to Jetstone then and there)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:18 pm

madmaw wrote:As GK already controls the dungeon, if the tower falls then GK will have effectively captured the garrison/city, instantly closing the portal (Antium implies this in panel 12)


Actually, I was wrong. Dungeon and Inner Walls are neither fully under control yet. Atrium seems not to be the name of the Garrison Zone... it's just a part of Inner Walls. So Tower falling won't close the portal immediately, but it isn't going to take long once Sylvia turns her attention to Inner Walls wiht those Purples.

Oberon wrote:Darn that's rather depressing, here I was all excited that I had come up with a funny explanation of the Doctor being a caster :/


I don't think he *can* use a Doctor. They would all be retconjurors (Timelords, fixing the past), and none of those have ever popped.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby President_Allosaurus » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:37 pm

Kreistor wrote:
madmaw wrote:As GK already controls the dungeon, if the tower falls then GK will have effectively captured the garrison/city, instantly closing the portal (Antium implies this in panel 12)


Actually, I was wrong. Dungeon and Inner Walls are neither fully under control yet. Atrium seems not to be the name of the Garrison Zone... it's just a part of Inner Walls. So Tower falling won't close the portal immediately, but it isn't going to take long once Sylvia turns her attention to Inner Walls wiht those Purples.


I believe the Atrium is just a name for the secluded, protected area they were holding the majority of their forces. Just part of the garrison zone, not the entirety of it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Swodaems » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:54 pm

zilfallon wrote:Emotions. Parson isn't doing the logical thing. He is acting on his emotions. I can't see how Parson being there makes life better fo GK. I'm still kinda disappointed to see a such a common character development. "guy with powers realizes his enemies are human" this type off thing doesn't make me "O.o wth, so epic!" anymore.


Yeah, "guy with power realizes his enemies are humans and then takes advantage of that fact to achieve his goals" is a far better development. Getting all wangsty and going stupid makes for a horrible story, especially when the protagonist is rewarded for that behavior.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Hoax » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:21 pm

What is the real reason that Parson is huffing and puffing his wide load over to Spacerock? That is the question. And I'm not going to accept the "dey r peepul 2" explanation for the reasons that zilfallon and swodaems have highlighted - its just no good. Parson looks like he's deliberately trying to strand himself at Spacerock when it gets captured and the portal disappears. But why - is he going rogue? I dunno. Maybe he is just being dumb.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Beeskee » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:29 pm

Hrm.. It seems like the perfect way to get away from Stanley for a very long time, and possibly start his own side.

It's too far for even dwagon relay to work, and Parson apparently can't ride mounts anyway. Also Parson needs freedom to explore and experiment with the rules to figure out how a side works.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Hatu » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:22 am

Kreistor wrote:
madmaw wrote:As GK already controls the dungeon, if the tower falls then GK will have effectively captured the garrison/city, instantly closing the portal (Antium implies this in panel 12)


Actually, I was wrong. Dungeon and Inner Walls are neither fully under control yet. Atrium seems not to be the name of the Garrison Zone... it's just a part of Inner Walls. So Tower falling won't close the portal immediately, but it isn't going to take long once Sylvia turns her attention to Inner Walls wiht those Purples.


The impression I got was that destroying the Tower would also kill Slately, who currently has no heir. That would revert all Jetstone cities to barbarian status, and as such Spacerock would no longer be a capital. Hence the portal would close.

But as usual when discussing "erf mechanics," the explanation is very vague and could wind up meaning any number of things.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Lamech » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:26 am

Kreistor wrote:Actually, I was wrong. Dungeon and Inner Walls are neither fully under control yet. Atrium seems not to be the name of the Garrison Zone... it's just a part of Inner Walls. So Tower falling won't close the portal immediately, but it isn't going to take long once Sylvia turns her attention to Inner Walls wiht those Purples.
The portals goes because right now the tower goes then the king goes, and that ends the side. No side, no capital, no portal. Also probably the reason they didn't consider the portal closing when the tower fell. It would be the equivalent of worrying about what happens if the enemy decides to commit suicide. The king should have been long gone.
BLANDCorporatio wrote:Now THAT is a cool exploit. It doesn't change that this bit of the story feels patchy, but it's a cool and very Parsonesque exploit.
Thank you. I still don't see the problem. They sent the dwagons to do something useful. It should have ended up pinning some forces down and denying some choices, but instead it might win the battle. I mean, a tactic taking out all the casters, top units, and king? Its a cake walk next as the dungeon fight has shown. That's clearly a good outcome. They can have Parson direct via Maggie if anything major comes up. And the archons as well.

Edit: Now that I think about it, if Jack and Wanda are suddenly concerned with Parson not making it, they probably should have seen that coming. However, Adam, and I suspect others wouldn't particularly worry since they assume that if the tower falls its a cakewalk. So its odd that Jack and Wanda didn't see the trouble, but I don't see why Adam or anyone else would have pointed it out. What would have they said? "Hey, I see a problem with your plan. If we knock down the tower we won't have Parson for the cakewalk victory that will follow."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Tathar » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:36 am

Beeskee wrote:Hrm.. It seems like the perfect way to get away from Stanley for a very long time, and possibly start his own side.

It's too far for even dwagon relay to work, and Parson apparently can't ride mounts anyway. Also Parson needs freedom to explore and experiment with the rules to figure out how a side works.


That's not entirely accurate. Parson can't fly on a dwagon, but there's nothing supporting that he can't ride mounts at all. In fact, he had to ride Banana just to attempt to achieve liftoff.

Do dwagons have to be flying to cross hexes/use move? I should think not.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby gameboy1234 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:39 am

Beeskee wrote:I think Parson planned to be trapped in Jetstone, or at least suspected he would be. But he'd be trapped with Wanda, Jack, and an ARMY. So it's all good.


Just thought of something: Parson will likely be trapped there with Janis and Marie also, if they stay stacked and exit the portal with him. (Since they don't know that the tower is about to fall and Jetstone loose their capital, they probably won't think anything of walking through the portal.)
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Beeskee » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:50 am

Tathar wrote:That's not entirely accurate. Parson can't fly on a dwagon, but there's nothing supporting that he can't ride mounts at all. In fact, he had to ride Banana just to attempt to achieve liftoff.

Do dwagons have to be flying to cross hexes/use move? I should think not.


Remember Banana faceplanted tho, it wasn't a "fly" it was a "fail" :D

But yeah, I guess Parson could mount a dwagon and have it WALK back. It's still multiple turns away even by relay tho. Parson likes breaking the rules so I imagine we'll find out if this will work or not, if he gets the chance.

One of the summer updates said he was likely a heavy unit and thus couldn't mount other units. But he clearly got on Banana, it just couldn't fly him anywhere.

It may be that there is such a thing as a "heavy flier" - the megalogwiffons may qualify, (edit: one of the text updates said they can carry 25 captured units, unless the game logic is so extreme that it just fails period, I don't think Parson weighs more than 25 people) and so may Stanley's big plated red dwagon which Parson thought was the most capable, but also the most likely to get him in trouble if he tried to take it out for a spin.


gameboy1234 wrote:Just thought of something: Parson will likely be trapped there with Janis and Marie also, if they stay stacked and exit the portal with him. (Since they don't know that the tower is about to fall and Jetstone loose their capital, they probably won't think anything of walking through the portal.)


If they go through with him, yes. They seem to be unaligned casters though so I don't think any harm will come of it. Hopefully Parson remembers to tell his units to not attack the new arrivals.

Parson will have one heck of a fighting force in Jetstone if this all pans out. And if he doesn't end up stuck in the MK, and if he doesn't end up in some other city due to the portal changing alignment.. And if... lol you get the point. ;)

I'm hoping he does team up with them, charge through the portal, and proceed with the pwnage.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:54 am

Lamech wrote:The portals goes because right now the tower goes then the king goes, and that ends the side. No side, no capital, no portal. Also probably the reason they didn't consider the portal closing when the tower fell. It would be the equivalent of worrying about what happens if the enemy decides to commit suicide. The king should have been long gone.


A City whose King dies does NOT immediately become the property of anyone who's nearby. The City becomes Neutral. All un-Sided Units are trapped inside and will wait until a Side captures the City. That's from a Klog in Book 1.

That's why Bea evacuated her Capital when she died. It prevented them from becoming Neutral, then attacked and converted to Decrypted.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:54 am

DUplicate post. Ignore.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby fjolnir » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:01 am

The atrium is the Courtyard, or at least a portion of it, Jetstone has a covered courtyard zone and no tunnels leading to its dungeons, all of which would provide certain bonuses to defense.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby kreszantas » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:09 am

Hoax wrote:What is the real reason that Parson is huffing and puffing his wide load over to Spacerock? That is the question. And I'm not going to accept the "dey r peepul 2" explanation for the reasons that zilfallon and swodaems have highlighted - its just no good. Parson looks like he's deliberately trying to strand himself at Spacerock when it gets captured and the portal disappears. But why - is he going rogue? I dunno. Maybe he is just being dumb.

Just a speculation that all the other CWL's have lead from the front. Look at Ceaser from TV, Ansom when he was with Jetstone, and Ossomer before capture, Trem when he took over, Sammy from Haggar, even Duncan is with Jillian. This harkens back to the old war era where commander's of the main armies were in the field prior to the Modern War generals leading from behind. Think of WW2 and Generals like Patton, Bradley and Monty even leading out in the field but Ike was more or less out of harms way. I think this could be a duty mechanism that the CWL's lead from the front due to the stats and the tactics that Jillian uses such as screening stacks and unit orders to protect her and maximize her value in the field. Think about the bridge combat for capturing Ossomer over to GK's side, how many units did that take? For just 1 unit! because of the stacking capabilities.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:59 am

bpzinn wrote:Personally, with the knowledge this strip gives, going back in time, it would have STILL consider bringing down the tower a good move until Jack had stuck his head the portal and received info on Parsons situation.


It's a question of timing. What if Artemis wasn't on hand to delay the tower siege? What if she were in the portal room to delay that conquest? There was no provision made to make sure that Parson, seeing as how he wants to be in Spacerock, actually gets there and only then is the finishing SONIC BOOM delivered.


bpzinn wrote:1. Getting PGLH into Spacerock is NOT an Instant win condition.


Did I mention it was? I don't assume it is.

bpzinn wrote:2. Parson faces potential danger in The Magic Kingdom. However ALSO will be subject to potential danger in Spacerock itself. Which danger is worse is not obvious.


There's two parts to this. Parson wants to get to Spacerock, for better or worse. Fine, lets grant him that. However, did he really plan to be stuck there until/unless Stanley switches capitals? (My guess is no). The second part is that since Parson wants to get to Spacerock, the way there better be open. Again, this slipped.

bpzinn wrote:3. The warlords can be assumed to know about portal mechanics. Where to you find support for the notion that the warlords are aware of Magic Kingdom politics vis a vis Parson?


I'm not making the second assumption. Please read what I'm actually writing. Specifically, it was that the GK units in the portal room were there waiting until they got bored. They knew they were waiting for Parson, and Antium even asked who this guy was that they are waiting for him. And still nobody realizes that there's a chance the portal would close. This has nothing to do with MK politics. It is about basic stuff like "we want outcome A, but our action X may make said outcome impossible".

bpzinn wrote:4. If the tower falls, and this kills Stately before there is an heir, enemy side falls, city goes barbarian. Win. Yes, this might expose Parson to a little more danger as he does a 180 and hustles back to GK. How much danger depends on how far into the trip he was. At less then halfway, no added danger at all. It also avoids any danger he might face in Spacerock.


"We want outcome {Parson in Spacerock}". For better or worse, Parson accepted the battle risks. He wants to get to Spacerock, his Casters want to see him there. Yet, they don't realize that their actions might jeopardize that goal.

bpzinn wrote:The issue is NOT "You do not risk your CWL anymore than he WANTS to," it is "You do not risk your CWL anymore than he NEEDS to"


Yes, I'm sure Wanda started demolishing the tower with the planned intention to block Parson's access to Spacerock. Uh-huh.

bpzinn wrote:5. I do not knot that the danger Parson may face in turning back to GK is worse than the danger he may face Spacerock itself. Neither did anyone there until Jacks reconnaissance.


This is basically the same as before, and same thing applies. "We want A, our action X jeopardizes that".

bpzinn wrote:6. GK has NOT captured all Garrison areas.


Regardless, Jack realizes now that OOPS, there's a serious chance the city will lose its capital status at any moment, so that argument is invalid.

bpzinn wrote:7. I think the tower gambit is a excellent lateral thinking because it offers MANY avenues to victory, and no matter how many fail, you only need to succeed ONCE.


That is correct but it's not what I'm griping about.

You seem to misunderstand what this is about. We are not discussing whether besieging the Tower was a good idea (it was). We are not discussing whether Parson going to Spacerock is a good idea (it isn't).

We are discussing the fact that Parson wants to get to Spacerock, Wanda knows he's coming (when she orders the attack on the Portal Room and the Tower) and wants that outcome to happen. Once the Portal room is captured, everyone finds out that they are waiting for Parson. Jack wants that outcome as well. Antium is kinda indifferent about that outcome, but as a warlord with Duty etc etc, he should point out that there's a contradiction between what is desired and what is actually done (as he finally did, in this page). Or, Wanda or Jack should have realized that. There was ample, calm time while they were waiting there.

And that's half of the discussion. The other half is that nobody mentioned that once Spacerock falls (which has nothing to do with Parson getting there, but it has to do with the fact that GK's purpose was to conquer Spacerock), the portal would close. That's an important enough thing that someone should have mentioned at some point, way before now. Like when the plan was cooked up.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Sojiko » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:25 am

Feel the burn, Jack!

How does it feel to be on the receiving end, for once?

holy_dwead wrote:Last panel, Parson has his 3D glasses on. He's sizing up his opponents. I think he's getting ready to barrel into the Great Minds.
Nice catch!

-

Panel 9 : from Sizemore's face, it appears the calculations Parson is doing on his bracer are VERY interesting. Seems like he found another exploit / brilliant idea.

-

Yes, the original plan would have trapped Parson on the front line. That was pretty much the entire point, participate with his men rather than being stuck back in GK.

-

Brining down the tower : back when that plan was enacted, only Wanda knew Parson was coming. She informed them of that later. So no need to explain why Antium or jack didn't see that coming. As for Wanda, please remember that if the tower fell before they took the portal room, the entire Jetstone side would have been wiped out and the battle for Spacerock won while ending the turn of their opponent (thus most likely making it GK's turn once again before interference). That was not a bad result. The only possible problem would be if Parson was somehow delayed during his rush through a hidden tunnel that had just been built, which was unlikely (and wouldn't have happened if Maggie hadn't leaked top secret information).
So yes, there was a remote possibility of a problem. Which was not obvious. Now add the fact that Wanda is not a warlord at all but a caster and that she's a borderline fanatic with blind faith in Parson and the decision is not strange at all.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Aster Azul » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:26 am

STEP THROUGH THE PORTAL, PARSON.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:56 am

Sojiko wrote:Yes, the original plan would have trapped Parson on the front line. That was pretty much the entire point, participate with his men rather than being stuck back in GK.


Was the plan to remain in a city with no portal though? If it was, how come nobody mentioned it?

Sojiko wrote:Brining down the tower : back when that plan was enacted, only Wanda knew Parson was coming. She informed them of that later.


I've already traced that chronology. There's a huge interval in there, after the announcement that Parson is due, when everyone just twiddles their thumbs and ogles the tapestry. So there IS a need to explain why nobody saw a flaw.

Sojiko wrote:As for Wanda, please remember that if the tower fell before they took the portal room, the entire Jetstone side would have been wiped out and the battle for Spacerock won while ending the turn of their opponent (thus most likely making it GK's turn once again before interference). That was not a bad result.


That's not what I'm discussing.

Sojiko wrote:The only possible problem would be if Parson was somehow delayed during his rush through a hidden tunnel that had just been built, which was unlikely (and wouldn't have happened if Maggie hadn't leaked top secret information).


No, there were other problems, like for example the Tower falling sooner because there were no high-level archers to delay the Siege. Wanda and co. couldn't have counted on Artemis to keep Sylvia busy until Parson arrived, they didn't know Artemis existed.

Sojiko wrote:So yes, there was a remote possibility of a problem. Which was not obvious. Now add the fact that Wanda is not a warlord at all but a caster and that she's a borderline fanatic with blind faith in Parson and the decision is not strange at all.


I'd hate to have you as a commanding officer, if that's what you qualify as "remote possibility". This is a classic flaw where several sides need to synchronize, but don't. It's obvious problems can happen, and foolish to not address them. And again, maybe Wanda is too much ill in the head to notice, but others around her had ample opportunity.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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