Book 2 – Page 70

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Swodaems » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:09 am

Wanda's problem is that she can't decide between letting her pride or her fatalistic outlook control her decision making.
Swodaems
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:52 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Theswerd » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:18 am

civilphil wrote:
cloudbreaker wrote:
civilphil wrote:Here are some of the cool things I noticed in this comic that I am surprised no one has mentioned yet . . . considering how deeply ya'll analyze this stuff. The first one is BIG ONE imo.

1. Panel 9 (or Row 3, third panel if you prefer): It sure looks to me like Parson has opened that blue Carnymancy scroll and is reading it. Interesting eh?

I thought that at first, too. But it is actually the location of Parson's bracer that makes it look like the scroll is open. I think he is just doing some calculations.



Aww dang it . . . i think you're right. Poop.


Quite frankley, I must disagree... to the point of registering on the forums to say so!

*IF* that is the bracer we see, then the bracer must have some sort of... ahem... Knob, on it, just below the elbow, on the lateral side of the arm. I say this because we see such a knob on the blue thingymajigger-of-disputed-nature in the 9th panel. And if he is simply resting the scroll there while who works on the bracer, well... thats an awfully awkward way to hold a scroll. Rather easy to drop, I would think. Be loads easier to hold it between the right arm and upper body, since the only real fine motor skills he would need would be for his right hand, not the whole arm.

Also... my prediction....
The Tower will fall, but not kill King Slatley. The Royal Balloon... ahem.. I mean, the king, shall use Ace's gifts to enter the airspace and kill Oss, capture Oss, or turn Oss. Optionally, He will leap onto the magic carpet and to same said as above.
As king still lives, Parson can pass throught the portal.

I have two big questions though... We haven't heard from Transelvito or FAQ in sometime, so might they still have some influence? Perhaps Don will still send aid, though it cost him dearly in political capital?
And CharlesComm... Just how might he be able to "shoot the healthy runner" Mayhap *he* sends the gem to declare an heir disguised as though it is from the Don.

And to those who think it insane that our band of leadership missed the whole "Portal bye bye" issue, When your heart is pumping in the thrill of taking a city, even when you have time to deliberate, you miss things. the question is going to be more of wether you miss the lone soldier who escapes to send word of the fall, or the giant cwap dwagon that is about to ... aheh... rain on your parade. And ANtium is, it seems, very very battle experienced. Wanda has come from TWO losing sides. Faq was crushed, though she is arguable not from that side,it still is part of her experiance level. GK was losing until Parson showed up. She has a lot of experiance losing, and little experiance winning. And NO expierence with taking a capitol city or killing a King. I have a new job right now, and while I have been in the company three years, and used much of the same programs I deal with right now, I am still blindsided by the new things I have to know for the new job. It would simply have never occorred to me that you could do things *this* way, or that *this* could foul up the workings of the program. I think given her lack of true expierance, we can forgive Wanda her oversight.. this once. Fool me once... shame one you...


.... And this whole flashing screen as I go lower and lower in the text field is REALLY annoying... and makes it hard to spell check myself.
Theswerd
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:49 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Theswerd » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:46 am

And because I am an honest geek, I must admit my error.... Went looking at previous posts, and we see clearly how parson is doing mathamancy and holding the scroll here... http://www.erfworld.com/page/6/ . Panels 8 and 12. Sigh.

Wanted to read the scroll. Oh well.
Theswerd
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:49 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:52 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Was the plan to remain in a city with no portal though? If it was, how come nobody mentioned it?


Probably because Rob overlooked that he hadn't mentioned it yet. Do you find it remarkable that a couple weeks after we began talking about Parson escaping through the Portal back to GK, suddenly we get a comic where the Portal's limitation to one per Side suddenly appears?

I've already traced that chronology. There's a huge interval in there, after the announcement that Parson is due, when everyone just twiddles their thumbs and ogles the tapestry. So there IS a need to explain why nobody saw a flaw.


There is no significant danger. The point that everyone seems to be overlooking is here:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F098b.jpg

Klog12 wrote:So what happens if Stanley is croaked? He has no heir, so our Side ends. Field Units disband and this city becomes "neutral," which is not as nice as it sounds. Units here freeze in time. Ansom takes a few turns to get his ducks aligned and then curb stomps us.


Slately's death does not give the city to GK. It still requires GK to clear all enemy Units out of Garrison. Wanda has taken care of this issue, simply by ordering Antium to not take the Garrison yet.

There is no flaw. Wanda has dealt with the problem, and you saw her do it.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
User avatar
Kreistor
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:59 pm
Location: K-W, Ontario, Canada

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Swodaems » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:03 am

Theswerd wrote:And to those who think it insane that our band of leadership missed the whole "Portal bye bye" issue, When your heart is pumping in the thrill of taking a city, even when you have time to deliberate, you miss things. the question is going to be more of wether you miss the lone soldier who escapes to send word of the fall, or the giant cwap dwagon that is about to ... aheh... rain on your parade. And ANtium is, it seems, very very battle experienced. Wanda has come from TWO losing sides. Faq was crushed, though she is arguable not from that side,it still is part of her experiance level. GK was losing until Parson showed up. She has a lot of experiance losing, and little experiance winning. And NO expierence with taking a capitol city or killing a King. I have a new job right now, and while I have been in the company three years, and used much of the same programs I deal with right now, I am still blindsided by the new things I have to know for the new job. It would simply have never occorred to me that you could do things *this* way, or that *this* could foul up the workings of the program. I think given her lack of true expierance, we can forgive Wanda her oversight.. this once. Fool me once... shame one you...


Incorrect. Wanda does have experiance with taking a capital and killing a king.
Swodaems
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:52 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Theswerd » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:21 am

Disagree... she has experiance Turning Coat on her king and killing him. Stanley is the one who did the assault. Wanda is taking the units stanely croaked and sending them into the tower. at this point, powerful as she may be, she is acting as an underling, not leading an assault. I'll grant her uncroaked units killed the king, but this does not mean she gains knowledge on how to take a capital. She "won" through being a lying sneaking trickster, not through competence in a more typical battle situation. And this is her weakness. Much as I dislike Stanley, the Tool is right in the selfsame post you offered when he says "She's all right, or she was back then. She's just never had a head for battle, you know? Prob'ly why she needs Hamster to save her behind now, right?"
Theswerd
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:49 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Aquillion » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:17 am

My suspicion is that there's more to Parson's plan, something he hasn't told anyone. His decision to go to the front lines probably plays into this, and the portal thing is probably related to it, too.
Aquillion
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 4:45 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby DevilDan » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:25 am

Parson likely didn't care that it would be problematic to get back to GK.

Gotta say, this update leaves me cold. A tiny bit of new info and just more expository chatting about why people are waiting for Parson. Yes, it's cute dialogue, but it's all but yawn-inducing at this point in the story.
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
User avatar
DevilDan
 
Posts: 1184
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:44 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby gameboy1234 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:36 am

Kreistor wrote:
Lamech wrote:The portals goes because right now the tower goes then the king goes, and that ends the side. No side, no capital, no portal. Also probably the reason they didn't consider the portal closing when the tower fell. It would be the equivalent of worrying about what happens if the enemy decides to commit suicide. The king should have been long gone.


A City whose King dies does NOT immediately become the property of anyone who's nearby. The City becomes Neutral. All un-Sided Units are trapped inside and will wait until a Side captures the City. That's from a Klog in Book 1.

That's why Bea evacuated her Capital when she died. It prevented them from becoming Neutral, then attacked and converted to Decrypted.


Just a quick note: technically the city goes "barbarian," not neutral. I'm not sure exactly what the difference would be, but Rob's been pretty consistent using that term. I think it's just that Barbarians attack anyone, and "neutral" would imply non-aligned but also possibly non-hostile. I suppose it might be possible to negotiate a truce or alliance with a barbarian, but I'm not sure how that would work.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

Avatar hoarked from PS238.
User avatar
gameboy1234
YOTD Supporter!
YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 10:04 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby bpzinn » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:02 pm

BLANDCorporation wrote:"We want outcome {Parson in Spacerock}". For better or worse, Parson accepted the battle risks. He wants to get to Spacerock, his Casters want to see him there. Yet, they don't realize that their actions might jeopardize that goal.

BLANDCorporation wrote:It is about basic stuff like "we want outcome A, but our action X may make said outcome impossible".


BLANDco, we seem to be assuming different goalposts here.

You seem to think that since Parson stepped into the Magic Kingdom, Parson getting to Spacerock is the New Goal. And that achieving that goal should be Wanda and companys new job one. I am trying to tell you that you are mistaken; and it is not actually a goal AT ALL.

The long term goal seems to be to unite all four Arkentools under attuned bearers.
The current short term mission objectives furthering this goal were to remove Jetstone as an obstacle to the long term goal.
This could be accomplished by a peace treaty or non aggression pact.
When that failed, it could be accomplished by ending the side.
While capturing the Capital does not automatically end the side, it is a substantial step in doing so.

The current mission objectives going into this Battle were the Capture (or destruction) of Space Rock, looking for any opportunities to end Jetstone as an opposing side while doing do.

Then Parson was reinstated as warlord. The goals did NOT change.
What has changed is Parson no longer wants to send people he knows and likes into danger he is not willing to face himself.
So he has gone into the Magic Kingdom, and is heading towards Spacerock itself.

He has given certain instructions to Wanda to facilitate that specific action such as:
Sending Ossomer in to stall for time. Having Wanda follow the parley prep instructions to the letter.
Having Wanda harvest the dragons for food after the hobgobwins were promoted.
Having her do as Mass decrypt after everyone that is going to die, dies.
Secure the Portal Room.
And that's about it...

He has NOT countermand all previous objectives. So why would Wanda, Jack, and co act as if he has? As Jack himself has said:
JackInTheBox wrote:The question, "how might we survive?" was the wrong one to ask. Parson had ignored it for, "how might we still win?" In answering the greater question, the lesser was also solved

Even from the privileged viewpoint we have, that does not seem to be the Case. Your belief that they should, is wrong. They, and I, are assuming he is coming to help them accomplish the goal of VICTORY, and not as an answer to some bad joke (Why did Parson cross the Magic Kingdom? To Get to the other side.)

Jack my be aware his other goal is to minimize the danger to those he cares about.
Any other objectives you are assuming on Parsons part, he has kelp to himself.

Also:

BLANDCorporation wrote:There's two parts to this. Parson wants to get to Spacerock, for better or worse. Fine, lets grant him that. However, did he really plan to be stuck there until/unless Stanley switches capitals? (My guess is no). The second part is that since Parson wants to get to Spacerock, the way there better be open. Again, this slipped.


First. you are wrong. Parson does NOT necessarily want to get to Spacerock. Parson wants to win, and he wants to save his friends.

Parson wrote:Wanda needs to be one of the survivors. If she is, then she can get up and decrypt all of our casualties and theirs.
If not... you're off the hook. There'll be no point in going through the Magic Kingdom.


Also, where do you ever get the idea that Parson was going to be able to easily go back to GK through the Magic Kingdom in the first place? He sent in Sizemore to make the tunnels, and then use the element of surprise for a "fat man in armor to do the 50 yard dash" before the people ALREADY ON GUARD and PATROLLING PORTAL PARK would be able to mount an offensive against him. He is not going to have the element of surprise anymore; The lack of a portal to go back is less of a problem to reentering the Magic Kingdom, then the Inhabitants of the Magic kingdom itself.

(Also, switching capitals won't work to get him back to GK unless they: 1. switch Capital to SR, 2. enter the MK, 3. overpower opposition in MK and start a was there, 4. switch Capital BACK to GK, 5. enter GK, 6. Deal with the war they just started. You are forgetting that once that once SR gains the Portal in this situation, GK looses its portal...

I am pretty sure Parson knew this, even if you did not, and was not counting on an easy way back to Gobwins Knob once he entered Spacerock.

You are assuming the rules for portals changed, and in the change you cleverly found a plot hole. You are assuming he wants to be able to to return to Gobwins Knob.
I am assuming Parson knows how portals work. Likely so are Wanda, jack, and the Warlords.

I am assuming that perhaps Parson thinks getting the win and minimizing loss of live is worth relocating to Space Rock. Or Parson actually finds potential value in being housed there. I also fail to see any overriding benefit Parson being at GK offers as opposed to Spacerock.


BLANDCorporation wrote:
bpzinn wrote:The issue is NOT "You do not risk your CWL anymore than he WANTS to," it is "You do not risk your CWL anymore than he NEEDS to"

Yes, I'm sure Wanda started demolishing the tower with the planned intention to block Parson's access to Spacerock. Uh-huh.

No, she started demolishing the tower with the planned intention of WINNING. You, know, the assumed reason Parson is going to Spacerock in the first place.

If the city can be won without Parson showing up, that is not a bad thing. This is the point you are completely missing. If she can do it, she SHOULD do it. It means you WIN, AND you avoid RISKING the CWL life in a Battle at Spacerock.

They are NOT waiting for Godot. That is a fiction you made up. They are securing the portal room, as ordered. They are ALSO, STILL perusing the ACTUAL GOALS for victory.
The reason no one mentioned the portal closing until Jack stuck his head through the portal is because it did not matter if the portal closed upon victory, UNTIL Parson got bogged down in the Magic Kingdom and was in danger of being trapped there. Before, if they won, and the portal closed, then Parson would have NOT been necessary, and could have turned around midway and ran the tunnel back home.

The problem with the portal closing NOW is not that it would be keeping Parson from entering Spacerock, as it would be keeping Parson from Leaving the MK. Because if the portal closes, it is because either Jetstone has fallen as a side, or already lost the city. There would be no reason for parson to come there EXCEPT to get out of the situation he is in NOW.

BLANDCorporation wrote:
bpzinn wrote:6. GK has NOT captured all Garrison areas.

Regardless, Jack realizes now that OOPS, there's a serious chance the city will lose its capital status at any moment, so that argument is invalid.

Um, no. that was not an argument, it was a statement of fact. Presented that the implications can be considered.
It means that even if the tower does fall at the worst possible moment, that the portal does not HAVE to close unless it kills Stately without heir.
It means that this can happen in the comic without the world ending.
It means Antium was NOT 100% correct on panel 12 unless some other factor is going on.
It even means that in theory GK could exploit this to get Parson out of his jam by passing one of their many gems to Jetstone to name an heir before the tower falls, or give Stately safe passage out of the garrison. I would consider Parson more important to the long term than a victory today. Others might as well.
I was not aware it was an argument against you at all.

No, I don't think Wanda thought through the implications felling the tower could cause, because Wanda is a bit of an idiot the way she turns off her brain to blindly follow fate. I think if she had it pointed out to her she would have probably rescinded the order. I think having Parson there would improved the odds. I STILL think felling the tower was a good idea. I think everyone all knew in the back of their minds that Win City = No More Capital = No More Portal. I think even Wanda knew this in the back of her mind. I think on one brought this up
BECAUSE: WHILE Parson Present = Better odds to Win City, ALSO Win City = Win City, AND IF Win City = Win City, THEN No More Portal = Moot.
And Wanda would have taken it as a sign from the Titans of her Fate, just because.

As I said above, I think Parson is aware of these portal mechanics, and was not considering the way back to GK proper. I think he may even have another propose that requires or benefits him relocating to Spacerock. Such as:
Distance from Stanley. Stanley and long term success do not seem to go together in proximity.
Both GK and Spacerock are level 5 Capital Sites away from the front lines (once Spacerock is secure) but Spacerock is closer to the current arena.
Dividing GK's vulnerable targets in separate areas, especially if Stanley names an heir.
To try to claim Spacerock for himself and start his own side.
To help Wanda spin off her own side.
To PREVENT Wanda spinning off her own side.
To get Stanley to designate Spacerock as the Capital, because Charley seems to be to chummy with the Gobwins around GK.
Whatever.

HOWEVER, he has not said anything about this to anyone, so they have no reason to see getting Parson to Spacerock as an objective, rather than the means to an end (victory at Spacerock)
User avatar
bpzinn
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:31 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Lamech » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:18 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Was the plan to remain in a city with no portal though? If it was, how come nobody mentioned it?

That appears to be the case. As for why nobody mentioned it: Chief Warlords are supposed to be with the main army. Its what they do. Their main purpose in fact. Lets look at some examples. Ansom, with RCC. Ceaser, with main TV force. Duncan, with main force. Stanley, with main dwagon airforce. Haggar, prince is with main force. Ossomer, went to front lines against Haggar. There is no reason for anyone to point out it out. It would be like saying "Hey, you're employed by Wal-Mart so why are you driving to Wal-Mart in an employing outfit?"
Lamech
 
Posts: 1375
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:29 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:Just a quick note: technically the city goes "barbarian," not neutral. I'm not sure exactly what the difference would be, but Rob's been pretty consistent using that term. I think it's just that Barbarians attack anyone, and "neutral" would imply non-aligned but also possibly non-hostile. I suppose it might be possible to negotiate a truce or alliance with a barbarian, but I'm not sure how that would work.


Incorrect. The word is "neutral". Klog 12... it's even in quotes to ensure it is used technically. There are fundamental differences between being a Barbarian and being Neutral.

Barbarians can move, capture Cities, and become a Side. (As Jillian did.)

Neutrals are stuck in the City, cannot move, cannot capture the City, cannot start a Side.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
User avatar
Kreistor
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:59 pm
Location: K-W, Ontario, Canada

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby DevilDan » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:39 pm

Does the fact that there was an extant heir in the case of Faq make the difference?
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
User avatar
DevilDan
 
Posts: 1184
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:44 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:51 pm

DevilDan wrote:Does the fact that there was an extant heir in the case of Faq make the difference?


To what? IWe're not talking about FAQ, so I'd need more on your perspective on how that matters.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
User avatar
Kreistor
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:59 pm
Location: K-W, Ontario, Canada

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Swodaems » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:02 pm

Kreistor wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:Was the plan to remain in a city with no portal though? If it was, how come nobody mentioned it?


Probably because Rob overlooked that he hadn't mentioned it yet. Do you find it remarkable that a couple weeks after we began talking about Parson escaping through the Portal back to GK, suddenly we get a comic where the Portal's limitation to one per Side suddenly appears?


Yes, I find the fact remarkable simply because of the fact that Erfworld is supposed to have a well planned out story. All major plot points already planned out and leading to the defined ending that the author already has written out and ready. (Replace the word 'fate' with the word 'plot' in Wanda's lines on this page to get an idea. And to start feeling scared for the future of the comic. I really hope Rob doesn't doesn't think of himself as struggling to put this out. Work by writers who have have fun with what they do is so much better.) This isn't supposed to be the kind of webcomic where the Author is just winging out the story as he goes along.

The problem is that this reveal stops the character's actions, in particular Parson's, from making internal story sense. It makes Parson look like he will potentially have no easy way to return to GK should he get thru the portal and succeed in taking the city. After the Book 1 to Book 2 time skip, Parson should have accurate knowledge of how portals work in a side with multiple capital sites. (Either by simply asking about it during his studies or because GK took Unaroyal. Parson has thusfar been portrayed as a inquisitive, situationally aware person, so the topic should have naturally come up.) If he doesn't have good knowledge about what will happen should he go to Spacerock, it is a break in that character because none of the characters Parson would be asking for knowledge appear to have reason to hide that piece of information from him. (Of course, this lack of knowledge could be setup for the reveal of the fact that Parson is an idiot.)

If Parson does have good knowledge about portals and does not have a return plan in mind, then his reason for putting himself in that situation needs to be explained so the audience isn't left hanging in a state of cognitive dissonance. (We should be flat out told if Parson is an idiot, suicidal, or simply using the opportunity to try to escape from GK. If he truely believes that he can help out more in spacerock than at GK, then we need to be told exactly why he thinks that. Does his bracer say that his bonus will actually be important? If the bonus is important, why can't he name another warlord as chief and give 'advisement'? Does he think that he'll actually be able to gather better information from being in the midst of battle and that he'll actually be able to use that information better while in the thick of battle? Does he merely want to level up a bit?)

If Parson does have a plan for his easy return in mind, then this is simply a case of creating false drama by causeing the audience worry over a problem that does not exist. (I am reminded of a bad episode of 'Cold Case' that I once saw. The officers raced back and forth between the suspects, interviewing them to find out their motives. When they finally arrive at the right guy, they prove his guilt with a picture that they simply pulled off a traffic cam of the guy driving the dead man's car. As nothing the suspects said ever lead to that traffic cam, that means the case was solved with a piece of evidence that popped up from routine investigation and that the entire exercise of running from suspect to suspect was pointless except as a exercise in exposition.) In my experience, when the writer is trying to distract the audience with pointless dramatic actions from the characters, he has one of two reasons for doing that. He is either trying to actively distract from a plot development that is actually a crucial part of one of the story's puzzles or he has a crap story to begin with and wants to keep the audience from seeing it. There is of course a fine line between the two reasons, but you can usually figure out the reason based on the audience's reaction. In the former case, the audience reacts with "Hot damn. I should have seen that coming." In the latter case, it's "Uhh, what? Does that really flow with the rest of the story?"

(Of course, this could be accidental drama and we're not supposed to be wondering at all about Parson's motives or intelligence, but that would mean that Rob has simply not gone thru the script and really thought about the impressions his audience will be receiveing from the work. However, as Rob has thus far tried to maintain a reputation with us as a decent writer and I think of forgetting to look from the audience's viewpoint as a mistake only amatuers make, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here and thinking that he intentionally created this feeling.)

Also, for those questioning why everyone else thinks that Parson's goals should include a return to a safe place from which he can oversee battles from afar, please answer me this: why does Parson have to fight like Ansom in order to do his job properly? Parson is currently not what Stanley invisioned as his perfect Warlord, a big, indomitable brute who can simply wade into every battle out there and come out alive, but with enough intelligence to be able to lead troops from afar. Why are you expecting the plot to push him into becoming that? Just because the chief warlord bonus is best used by a warlord who is fighting on the front is simply not enough reason for Parson to feel compelled to permanently leave his safe comfy chair. The obvious solution for that problem is to walk over to the Tool and say something along the lines of "Tool, when you gave me the Chief Warlord title, you gave me two things: the chief warlord bonus and the authority to give orders to all units on our side saving yourself. I am going to keep the authority, but the actual chief warlord bonus will be going to the warlord of my choice with the understanding that they will still be bound to my orders." Parson should be well aware that the identity of the holder of the chief warlord bonus should be something that changes as the situation demands. (And if there are limitations on how the chief warlord can be redesignated, then we need to have those limits defined in no uncertain terms.)

(PS. Also since Parson cannot travel by dwagon relay and has unknown move, Parson sticking with the main force of the army means that he has the potential to end up continually faced with the choice between slowing down the entire force to his speed whenever they move or sending all or part of it on ahead of him. Several manuvers become flat out impossible for him to achieve. For example the original plan for GK to take Spacerock was for Ansom to join Wanda in the aerial assault, a move which Parson could not do because he cannot fly and therefore would have merely been trapped . At the moment, Parson is physically incapable of properly ensuring that his continued presence on the battlefield does not create a hinderance for GK and he should be fully aware of that. That Ace Hardware may be able to craft gear for Parson that removes those limitations should not factor in at all because Parson has no shown way of ensuring that he'll be able to get Ace's or any other caster's help. Nor have we seen any other ways for him to ensure that his battlefield inadequcies are are covered. (If Parson does have a way of ensuring that, then we need to see that ASAP.))
Swodaems
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:52 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:33 pm

No member of GK's army has 'easy access' to return (except for the Dwagon relays for individual units). The bulk of the army was going to be out in the field. Why is it suddenly a big concern that Parson is subject to this?
Wanda and Jack could return to GK via the portals if they failed to take Jetstone, but would be traveling traditionally back if they succeeded. If dwagons or archons with nets can carry him, he's about 6 turns away from GK. If he's got to walk, he maybe 20 or 30 turns away, but it will probably only take him a couple of turns to organize something that let's him get back more quickly.

But Parson heading back isn't likely. He said he wouldn't send his people into fights that he himself won't fight. That means that he's going to be in the attacking assault force from now on. He doesn't *want* to be back at GK.

I'm failing to understand why this is a big issue.
Equilateratoria is now underway. New players are welcome to join at any time! (Rules)
User avatar
MarbitChow
 
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby zuche » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:39 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
zuche wrote:What we have here is entirely new ground. In Erfworld's history, when has a side endangered one its units by achieving victory -- while that unit isn't even at the battle? Delightfully, the realization only comes about as a result of Antium's confusion.


Even if "new", that oversight is beyond bizzare. It is obvious enough for Antium to point it out now, it's weird that nobody thought of it sooner.


In chess, a common post-mortem term is, "Patzer sees a check." It refers to a weak player's tendency to overvalue a chance to put the enemy king in check, but also to the fact that this sort of direct thing is occasionally useful in the post mortem.

Sometimes, the patzer never says anything, either for fear of looking foolish in front of better players or because it's assumed that the better players must have accounted for these things. That plays into another observation of human nature: we can be a bit too reliant upon other people's judgment.

The reason Antium pointed out the problem is because he's the only one of the three that hasn't grown accustomed to thinking, "If there's a problem, Parson can take care of it." Thankfully, Jack tend to be a bit more flexible than that.

You say there was ample time to realize the problem. Since they have realized the problem, you are correct. That said, how many turns passed before anyone realized that it was possible to greatly exceed normal movement limitations by switching mounts? It's as obvious in hindsight as the number 0, but that is the nature of oversight.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:We seem to have different opinions on military ops.


Yours is based on the ideal. I base mine on human behaviour: "How did we miss that?" is always in season.
zuche
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:29 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby auraseer » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:55 pm

I don't think Parson is going to wind up stranded. I'm sure the portal will close, but no matter which side he's on-- MK or Spacerock-- he has an out. That fancy new scroll can always send him "home."

We don't know what "home" means, especially in the context of Carnymancy, which we really don't know much about. The scroll might return Parson to Stupidworld, or he might just wind up back in GK (to the surprise of Jojo and everyone else).
auraseer
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:09 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:53 pm

Kreistor wrote:Probably because Rob overlooked that he hadn't mentioned it yet. Do you find it remarkable that a couple weeks after we began talking about Parson escaping through the Portal back to GK, suddenly we get a comic where the Portal's limitation to one per Side suddenly appears?


Nope, it is very much in line with the usual MO. (Even if said MO results in some strange behaviour for the Erfers).

Kreistor wrote:There is no significant danger. The point that everyone seems to be overlooking is {snip}


If that argument were valid, then we wouldn't have the "Oops" moment in the latest comic. But we do, so it isn't.

bpzinn wrote:BLANDco, we seem to be assuming different goalposts here.


And since they are what I'm up for discussing, you'd better stick to them.

This discussion is not about the ultimate fate of Erfworld. As such, I don't care about what you think are long term goals.

What I do know is that Parson expressed desire to get to Spacerock, and that his underlings expressed a desire to see him there. Given this step (regardless of what the ultimate purpose is), it is odd to act against it.

So because of that, I really don't see a need to address your lengthy essay. It's just not relevant to the point I'm making.

Lamech wrote:That appears to be the case. As for why nobody mentioned it: Chief Warlords are supposed to be with the main army. Its what they do. Their main purpose in fact. Lets look at some examples. Ansom, with RCC. Ceaser, with main TV force. Duncan, with main force. Stanley, with main dwagon airforce. Haggar, prince is with main force. Ossomer, went to front lines against Haggar. There is no reason for anyone to point out it out. It would be like saying "Hey, you're employed by Wal-Mart so why are you driving to Wal-Mart in an employing outfit?"


And Parson, the notable exception in Book 1, didn't lead the Dwagon donut of doom.

But that's not important. What is, is that Warlords do or should discuss the consequences and risks of their actions. Like, for example, collapsing the Portal to the MK. This is not just about "oh, so you're leading troops at the front"*, it's about that "you realize there won't be a portal there anymore".

*: plus, Parson is again an odd duck. Other CWLs lead on the front to provide bonuses. Parson's is small. He's much more useful for the ideas, not the bonus, and therefore little is gained by sending him forward.

zuche wrote:The reason Antium pointed out the problem is because he's the only one of the three that hasn't grown accustomed to thinking, "If there's a problem, Parson can take care of it." Thankfully, Jack tend to be a bit more flexible than that.

You say there was ample time to realize the problem. Since they have realized the problem, you are correct. That said, how many turns passed before anyone realized that it was possible to greatly exceed normal movement limitations by switching mounts? It's as obvious in hindsight as the number 0, but that is the nature of oversight.


Switching mounts means some combination of resources that can require ingenuity to cook up. Knowing that there's a danger to remove a portal should be just about common knowledge. It doesn't need ingenuity. It should be seen by someone at the earliest opportunity.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 70

Postby Kreistor » Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:58 pm

MarbitChow wrote:I'm failing to understand why this is a big issue.


My god... we agree!

At worst, Wanda didn't think through crashing Tower, and created an easily solved problem. At best, she knew it might create a problem, but she could prevent it if need be.

You can tell she isn't worried by not panicking and sending Sylvia a message to stop crashing Tower. I think a few other people around here need to take that attitude.

Serious overreactions on this one.

BLANDCo wrote:If that argument were valid, then we wouldn't have the "Oops" moment in the latest comic. But we do, so it isn't.


I note there is no reference to any Rules in that statement. Out of hand dismissals are not evidence.

Like I've said before... believe whatever you want. But no one in the comic is reacting as if you were correct.

Oh, and as further evidence... Antium knows the King is in Tower, and he still talks about cleaning up the dying in Tower Rubble before Garrison is taken. Had Slately's death changed matters, he would have said, "And if King Slately hasn't died in the collapse, we'll need to search through Tower Rubble to find him."
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
User avatar
Kreistor
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:59 pm
Location: K-W, Ontario, Canada

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests