Book 2 – Page 72

[zuche]

Storytelling is not all about plot. It is often about presentation. In a world where signamancy has meaning, we've just been shown an ominous convergence of statements. We also saw a subtle demonstration of predictamancy at work -- well, subtle within the narrative, at least, if not in the presentation.

If our esteemed author is stalling for time, at least the route continues to lead past interesting sights.

That said, I still think we'll be tuning in on Jillian this week.

[Housellama]

Most Strategy games are complex versions of Rock-paper-scissors. Let's take a real world example using the War of 1812 in Europe. Cavalry beats artillery (since Artie couldn't aim at fast moving horses). Artillery beats infantry in Square formation (all lined up for the cannonballs to knock down rows of men). Infantry in Square formation beat cavalry (pike square tactics using muskets... horse broke a Square only one single time in all of known history). However, if INfantry deployed in line, infantry beat artillery (cannon can only tkae out 1 or 2 men per ball, instead of a row of 4 or 5), but cavalry beat infantry (could get around the flanks and engage in melee). Rock-paper-scissors. And when all three were present in one place at one time... the infantry suffered.

That's an extremely limited example. While, in general, pike beats horse, horse beats ranged and ranged beats pike (which is the very simplified standard RPS arrangement in most TBS games), in real life it's rarely that simple. What you are fielding is often less important than how you are fielding it and what you do with it once it is on the field. There are many examples of inferior armies beating superior forces. There are also examples of superior armies losing far more troops than they should. Or smaller, technologically superior or elite troops destroying a much larger force. Even in TBS games, it's rarely that simple. Troop experience and level of armament or technology, weather, terrain, strategic positioning and a number of other factors can affect that RPS arrangement. To reduce warfare to simply what's on the field, even in a TBS situation is a gross oversimplification in any situation.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Jillian was mentioned as dropping magic items when she got smacked down at the comic start. Since she only dropped her sword and hat, that makes the sword magical.

I like this reasoning, and I'm convinced. Jill's BFS is magic (some inertia damping charm, most like).

This needs to be linked too. Stanley's knights are equiped with glowing axes. So yes, people do kit out there units with magic toys.

Much as I'd like to be able to throw that in the face of those who say that magic items are useless, I'm not convinced on this one yet. They glow, ok, normal axes and halberds don't, but for all I know it's fluorescent paint. You do make a point that we only know of magical items when explicitly named as such. Indeed. I'd not venture much farther than that knowledge when trying to decide, more or less fer-sure, what items are enchanted or not.

Anyway, my point is that picking one unit and figuring out if another unit can beat it doesn't mean teh winning unit is in general more powerful than the other. It may have weaknesses of its own that make it situationally useful against the selected unit, but not generally powerful compared to all units.

Amen to that. It appears that a few people choose, for the sake of argument, to not get this concept, and assume that since counters to some hypothetical enchanted Pikers exist, then enchanted Pikers are useless. Tactics rarely provides examples of uncounterable actions anyway.

That said, I still think we'll be tuning in on Jillian this week.

And I still hate your guts for being totally right.

[irt. Kreistor]That's an extremely limited example. While, in general, pike beats horse, horse beats ranged and ranged beats pike (which is the very simplified standard RPS arrangement in most TBS games), in real life it's rarely that simple. What you are fielding is often less important than how you are fielding it and what you do with it once it is on the field. {snip} To reduce warfare to simply what's on the field, even in a TBS situation is a gross oversimplification in any situation.

I don't understand how that runs counter to Kreistor's point, or for that matter what relevance it has on the "enhanced units vs. summoned units" debate on Dollamancy use. At best, it tells us that we cannot expect to be able to predict the outcome of a battle solely on the composition of the opposing armies (unless the inbalance is so crass that it's not funny, like a Piker vs. 1000 Pikers identical to the first). Which is a fair point, but doesn't require one to believe either that item enhancement, or summoning, is the better use for a Dollamancer.

There was a post (by Lamech) in which a relevant point was made: it appears summoning units is "cheap" (see Sizemore's instantaneous creation of several Rock Gowems, units so durable they survived the GK erruption). It's entirely possible that summoning units is in fact much cheaper* than making items, therefore more efficient.

This opens another can of worms though. If Sizemore can create so many Gowems in one turn, why stop at that number? Why not churn out Rock Gowems in all available turns (those not spent on reconstruction projects)? Presumably there are upkeep limits (as in, they'd cost upkeep like regular units, and may be impossible to decrypt) or "control" limits, as in a Caster can only keep a certain number of summoned creatures around; to summon another, disband an old one first. But if THAT were the case, wouldn't Dollamancers eventually reach their control limit in summoned Tankaroos, and benefit from switching to item production?

We'll see in future updates.

[oslecamo2_temp]

There was a post (by Lamech) in which a relevant point was made: it appears summoning units is "cheap" (see Sizemore's instantaneous creation of several Rock Gowems, units so durable they survived the GK erruption). It's entirely possible that summoning units is in fact much cheaper* than making items, therefore more efficient.

What are you guys smoking? The rock golems were there before Hamster started to plan the last defense of GK.

Which brings another point, golems don't have levels. They can't level up. Something common in many games of this kind, summoned units start strong out of the bat, but they can't level up, so eventually they get outclassed by high-level normal troops. They still make quite handy garrison units since forces on guard duty don't get much chances to level up.

[BLANDCorporatio]

What are you guys smoking? The rock golems were there before Hamster started to plan the last defense of GK.

Good shit apparently, because I forgot that the chronology ran that way. Ok then, so summoning (at least Rock Gowems) is not necessarily "cheap" at all.

Where

*cheap: fast to make, with little juice consumption etc.

[Balerion]

Anyway, my point is that picking one unit and figuring out if another unit can beat it doesn't mean teh winning unit is in general more powerful than the other. It may have weaknesses of its own that make it situationally useful against the selected unit, but not generally powerful compared to all units.

There is no indication that is the case though. No one mentioned the heavy units getting some nice bonuses when used against the GK column, that they could stomp infantry really nicely compared to other things. They were surprised Trem was using heavies instead of the basic infantry in fact. If heavies were some sort of counter in that situation, it would have just been a "no duh" situation instead of a surprise. We have gotten no little updates describing how archers are creamed by a mounted rush, or mounted units shouldn't go near pikers. When the warlords are talking, light vs med vs heavy infantry seems to be the main distinctions they care about. Admittedly, we have not been told none of those things are the case, but we have had ample opportunity for something like that to come up by now; introducing it into the story this late would be surprising.

Of course how you use the units will matter a ton. You pay a lot more time to get those heavies, and if they end up fighting a stack with leadership they seem to get creamed pretty quickly (which is unsurprising; if you are an attack of say 4, and get a +4 bonus from your warlord, you are twice as effective. The heavy who was an 18 getting +4 is no where near as buffed up relative). A led group of pikers could probably shred a single cloth golem no problem with enough leadership bonus. Whereas a led stack of cloth golems (or other heavies) will plow through any number of stacks you want to send up against them if you just use light infantry.

The RPS effect does seem to come into play when you start talking special abilities; dance fighting/rocking will cream those who lack that ability, having the right caster at the right time will decimate an enemy army. Better have some flyers, or some archery specials, or you are likely to get burned from the sky. I just don't see the effect happening with unit types though.

Tying this into the original debate, if you could give units new specials en masse through hardware, that would be wonderfully effective. The pikers who can dance fight without leadership or ddr could definitely have a use. Is it the cost effective choice though? I would bet that those items are harder to make than a bracer that shoots lightning, or a cape that absorbs a hit, simply because we don't have pikers getting dancing shoes, and we should assume there is some good reason for it. I see the mass produced items as more likely to function along the lines of a combat bonus. In effect, the same bonus could probably be achieved by getting your CW to level two more times, or scattering some lower level warlords in the hex properly so their leadership takes effect. Turning a caster into something that a warlord can do the equivalent of seems inherently wasteful. Casters are meant to be game breakers, and I don't see you achieving that through spamming magic items. Spamming heavy units without tying up city production, on the other hand, would seem to be closer to that goal.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Tying this into the original debate, if you could give units new specials en masse through hardware, that would be wonderfully effective. The pikers who can dance fight without leadership or ddr could definitely have a use. Is it the cost effective choice though? I would bet that those items are harder to make than a bracer that shoots lightning, or a cape that absorbs a hit, simply because we don't have pikers getting dancing shoes, and we should assume there is some good reason for it.

Plausible reason: mass production is impossible. (Unless you have a sweatshop of casters, maybe).

Unlike croakamancy, which does allow uncroaking thousands of (admittedly poor-resulting) units, maybe Dollamancy cannot really make items that are worth spending your juice on, in enough quantity to outfit all of your hundreds of Pikers.

[oslecamo2_temp]

What are you guys smoking? The rock golems were there before Hamster started to plan the last defense of GK.

Good shit apparently, because I forgot that the chronology ran that way. Ok then, so summoning (at least Rock Gowems) is not necessarily "cheap" at all.

Where

*cheap: fast to make, with little juice consumption etc.

Well, we know that Sizemore's "usual" assignments at the start of the book was to make crap golems all day long. And even then they had just 19 of them when the final battle started. From here it seems like crap piles up faster than Sizemore can deal with it.

[Housellama]

[irt. Kreistor]That's an extremely limited example. While, in general, pike beats horse, horse beats ranged and ranged beats pike (which is the very simplified standard RPS arrangement in most TBS games), in real life it's rarely that simple. What you are fielding is often less important than how you are fielding it and what you do with it once it is on the field. {snip} To reduce warfare to simply what's on the field, even in a TBS situation is a gross oversimplification in any situation.

I don't understand how that runs counter to Kreistor's point, or for that matter what relevance it has on the "enhanced units vs. summoned units" debate on Dollamancy use. At best, it tells us that we cannot expect to be able to predict the outcome of a battle solely on the composition of the opposing armies (unless the inbalance is so crass that it's not funny, like a Piker vs. 1000 Pikers identical to the first). Which is a fair point, but doesn't require one to believe either that item enhancement, or summoning, is the better use for a Dollamancer.

Well actually it kind of does. That's the POINT, innit? That's sorta where we are now. If things don't get USED, they aren't any good. And since their use dictates their effectiveness, how they are used does make a big difference. And if they are used horribly by an idiot, then it really doesn't matter what gets produced. If substandard stuff gets used by a genius, then it still might not matter.

*shrugs* That's still not very helpful. Personally I don't think we have enough information about any of the 'mancies to even speculate well at this point. You guys can debate whatever you like. But reducing warfare to one element rubs me the wrong way. Feel free to ignore me and continue.

[effataigus]

Much speculation later, it doesn't seem like we've come to a conclusion regarding why there aren't more magical items in Erfworld. That said, plenty of plausible reasons have been offered.

My favorite explanation (as multiple people have advanced here) is simply that magic items, unlike combat units (until recently), don't change hands after a loss... tilting the balance in favor of creating units when spending your juice. Of course, if warfare were less common and all sides were halting production to prevent popping units that couldn't be fed, then the speculation about magic items having no upkeep would be highly relevant as well. Which begs the question, how awesome of a place could Erfworld be if that were true and they stopped killing each other?

I mean... JETPACKS. I want one.

[Jorgath]

Much as I'd like to be able to throw that in the face of those who say that magic items are useless, I'm not convinced on this one yet. They glow, ok, normal axes and halberds don't, but for all I know it's fluorescent paint. You do make a point that we only know of magical items when explicitly named as such. Indeed. I'd not venture much farther than that knowledge when trying to decide, more or less fer-sure, what items are enchanted or not.

This brings up an interesting question. In many game systems, there's magic items that are just better versions of mundane items, and then there's magic items that actually do wonky things. Obviously, the Tesla bracer is the latter kind, and gets special note made of it. But what if, as part of Ace's normal job, all Warlords of Jetstone get a +1 sword or something? Something that gives them a minor magical combat bonus, but is otherwise not that remarkable? It's a better sword than a Slasher (or whatever a basic sword infantry unit is called) has, but we don't know about it because it's not that unusual. Jillian's sword might be a +3 keen sword, but it's not a +3 keen sword of flying or we'd probably know about it.

Why yes, I play D&D. However did you guess?

[Sixty]

There was a post (by Lamech) in which a relevant point was made: it appears summoning units is "cheap" (see Sizemore's instantaneous creation of several Rock Gowems, units so durable they survived the GK erruption). It's entirely possible that summoning units is in fact much cheaper* than making items, therefore more efficient.

What are you guys smoking? The rock golems were there before Hamster started to plan the last defense of GK.

Which brings another point, golems don't have levels. They can't level up. Something common in many games of this kind, summoned units start strong out of the bat, but they can't level up, so eventually they get outclassed by high-level normal troops. They still make quite handy garrison units since forces on guard duty don't get much chances to level up.

Are we sure that golems don't level up?

[Oberon]

However, our case will be countered by "only Parson would have thought about that hack" and "we explicitly know that Slately discouraged experimentation with Dollamancy" (as if one case were enough to prove a general trend). Meh, it's probably a-ok and evidence-consistent to consider that Erfworlders are in fact stupid.

It doesn't have to be stupid. It looks that way, but consider the possibility that making a combat 5 teddy bear might be superior to making a +1 combat accessory. Also, there is almost a bi-mancer link going on here, with Cubbins contributing just as much to the accessory creation as is Ace. Sure, it's not a true link, but it is a synergistic 'mancer cooperation producing results the likes of which we have not yet seen without the limitations of linkage being applied. Complain about that, rather than the simple potency of accessory creation.

I predict that some thinkamancer is about to have a face full of groundhog.

Where the hell is the jet pack?

Stop it with the NOTHING HAPPENING already and make something HAPPEN! Nothing serious has changed in 12 pages! It's dragging and dragging, and the suspense is totally being lost!

You say tomato...
STOP it with the something happening ALREADY and make NOTHING happen!

Well so many things to say, i'd need a bushel of oberons to do it justice.

Haha! Good thing there's only one of me then! Oh, wait.

1. Cloth golems in particular probably require a lot of upkeep. They're stitched cloth that moves around and lifts heavy objects. If nothing else, their feet would get tattered and filthy

And would become untattered and clean again at the start of each new day. And plush!

It's already been establised that magic items can be resized.

It's been established that eyebooks can be easily resized.

And arkentools. Surely these cannot be the only examples. And yes, I did call you Shirley.

[Sojiko]

Are we reading the same comic?

Yes.

First of all, from my interpretation, that isn't "the tower will fall very soon", it's "the tower is falling now".

The tower had already started crumbling (literally, pieces were falling down and crashing on the floor) and the tower isn't destroyed yet. Probably next comic, maybe not. Showing yet another hit at the tower doesn't advance the plot, we could have started with a view of the tower falling since we ALREADY knew purples were breathing at it.
Showing that last blow only means one thing for the story : we won't see any more breathing on the tower on screen. Which I was already expecting given the last couple of updates so it's actually a step back for me.

That was the last blow. Boom, Crack, Crumble. Boom is the siege hitting again, Crack is the tower finally giving way and Crumble is the start of it's fall. The tower is no longer in a state of going to fall. It is in a state of currently falling.

Incorrect, it's right about to fall. If you look at it it hasn't started falling. So very very soon (maybe next panel) but not fallen yet. If we hadn't been warned "the tower is about to fall any second now!" several times it would be new. It isn't.

Second, we learned something about the Decrypted. Ossomer is debatably the lowest loyaly Decrypted that we know of. And yet when offered the explicit chance to turn, he didn't say I won't, he said I can't. Specifically "It isn't possible." That's potential confirmation of forced loyalty to the Pliers.

No, that's abusive interpretation of Ossomer's speech pattern. The Turnamancy attempt to turn Ansom was a MUCH more substantial proof of that particular theory. Not to mention it may not be possible to simply ask a warlord to turn given Loyalty and Duty, decrypted or not.
So that might a bit to discussions, but isn't really important.
WHICH IS IRRELEVANT ANYWAY. Even if it is something interesting to learn (which it isn't) it's still not the plot of the story moving forward, it's exposition. So double fail on that point.

Third, we see Maggie bargaining with the Thinkamancers. Anyone else curious about what sort of 'reasonable compromise' Maggie might have come to, especially with Parson out of earshot?

We already knew she was negotiating, we already knew the Thinkamancers were not ready to discuss terms. We have had this information repeated and now know Maggie didn't reach any sort of agreement with them. Exposition of the fact "nope, no progress whatsoever on that front".

Fourth, we get a LOT of information about magic items that was parleyed into a rather good discussion about the creation, use and economics of magic items in Erfworld.

No we don't, it's almost all a repetition of what we learned in that text update that discussed his bling. We know more specifically what his equipment will do (practical limit of the cape and ... no, that's it). But that's exposition of a plot development that happened a while ago in text. Of course we need the comic to catch up with the text, so that's required, and as I said I like this update. But that's not the plot developing, that's the comic catching up to the text with a bit of exposition added to explain what happened there more in details (mostly for the overall look of Stanley than anything else, love the Mars Attack reference).

We also see Slately fully resolved to combat, something we've never seen before.

He already told us he was and asked for weapons. Old, old, old. We haven't learned anything; We did see his awesome new look, but that's not plot development.

He's talked about it, but now it's definite that he's fully committed to kick some boop, and do it hard.

If he had suddenly changed his mind that would be something happening. That's not.

Finally... Anyone curious about WHY Jack stuck his head back out?

Obviously.

Think about it.

I have, don't worry.

Jack's the closest to Parson in lateral thinking. Jack checked out the situation and then we haven't really heard from him again. He's had a bit of time to think, and that's dangerous. He's smiling too. That's also dangerous. Anyone else that he has a plan?

That's a "promise, something will happen real soon", not anything actually happening. If we had started with jack doing something with his head sticking out of the portal it'd have worked just as well (especially with a "hello there" at the start of his speech bubble). We already knew he was a step away from the action in MK, him sticking his head tell us he might do something. Or not. Which we already knew. So it's foreshadowing future development, but it's not actual action.

Seriously, I don't know why people have been saying that nothing's been happening.

I have a pretty good idea : because the comic has been veeeeery slow for the finish (just like last time) and that it has been busy catching up to the text updates (several pages with almost nothing new for the text-readers) AND it is carefully (slowly?) setting up a clear shot of the situation so that we know exactly how things stand when the boop hit the fan.

Not every scene is going to be an action scene.

Yes, I am very much aware of that. Which is why I said I like this comic several times despite pointing out that nothing happens.

Sometimes you need slow bits to make the action bits that much more dramatic.

Indeed!

Rob's been going slow and building up several different plotlines so that he can bring them all to a head at the same time. Everything's going to go down at once. It's called dramatic tension. It works better when you can read it, but guys, Rob's a good writer. He knows what he's doing. Give the man some credit and sit through the slow bits, because you can practically take it to the bank that he's going to pay it off in the end.

That's what I'm doing, yes.

[BLANDCorporatio]

My favorite explanation (as multiple people have advanced here) is simply that magic items, unlike combat units (until recently), don't change hands after a loss... tilting the balance in favor of creating units when spending your juice.

AAARGH! But that's the silliest thing I ever heard! Am I the only one seeing this?! I feel like I'm taking stupid pills.

It doesn't have to be stupid. It looks that way, but consider the possibility that making a combat 5 teddy bear might be superior to making a +1 combat accessory.

Yeah, I know. That's the reason I find most plausible as well (mass production is impossible, and what we just saw was a combination of Ace and Cubbins working together to fit already built items to Slately's regalia).

That comment of mine you quoted was directed more at a trend that my paranoid self sees in these forums. That something needs Parson to point it out as being possible/useful, because Erfworlders sure as heck couldn't have figured that all on their own.

Haha! Good thing there's only one of me then! Oh, wait.

The good thing about you, there's so many of you.

[Morni]

I saw a few people arguing that Magic items should have charges, needs to be recharge.

Duncan has a "magic headpiece" to help match (rock, papper, scissors) combat units for his advantages.
here's the page about it: http://www.erfworld.com/2010/01/book-2- ... dates-011/

- he never mention having to "recharge" the items.
- it was created in a fallen kingdome called napster thousands of turn ago.
- I highly doubt that Duncan is thousands of turn old, so magic item can be capture, passed on etc..
- rock paper scissors does exists. and duncan has an advantage there

here's the wiki link to people that were talking about magic items: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Magic_Item

[effataigus]

My favorite explanation (as multiple people have advanced here) is simply that magic items, unlike combat units (until recently), don't change hands after a loss... tilting the balance in favor of creating units when spending your juice.

AAARGH! But that's the silliest thing I ever heard! Am I the only one seeing this?! I feel like I'm taking stupid pills.

Perhaps... or perhaps it's us downing them. Am I missing something about your argument? I read it earlier, but it struck me as off-point. Specifically, when you took this argument to it's illogical conclusion, you ignored that we're debating whether magical items are a more efficient use of juice than making units. Or at least I am.

I agree that the possibility for magic items changing hands is absolutely no reason to not use magic items... one shouldn't bank on failing. However given these two viable ways to strengthen your army, more units and more magical items, this point ensures that the bonus per juice would have to be higher for magical items than for units for them to be worthwhile en masse.

Cubbins is the biggest flaw in this theory that I see, since we don't know that he can make units at all. Of course, this argument is just that the mancer has *something* better to be doing with his time and juice than to sit on an assembly line, and, so far, I can't think of anything that a hatamancer *can* do other than make magical items.


Here's a silly situation to explain my point that you should ignore if you get where I'm coming from already:

Consider two armies, one is good one is bad, and each have 5 doods and a caster. The bad caster makes 5 bad-doods bringing his army's total to 10 bad doods. The good caster makes 5 swords that, when held by a dood, make that dood as good as two doods. One round into the combat, 4 bad-doods are dead, 2 good doods are dead, and the bad-doods have scavenged two +dood swords. Now it's 6 good-dood equivalents to 8 bad-dood equivalents... what started out numerically even has tilted against the good guys. Now throw a Wanda into the mix and this discussion is moot.

However, if one of your doods is giving all of your other doods a +1 (leadership for instance), then you definitely want to give him a +1 dood sword to maximize how long that unit gives that bonus. This is pretty much how we've seen magical items distributed so far... in the hands of casters, warlords, and the most powerful units.

[drachefly]

Perhaps the issue is that the claim was phrased backwards?

[Unclever title]

At best, it tells us that we cannot expect to be able to predict the outcome of a battle solely on the composition of the opposing armies (unless the inbalance is so crass that it's not funny, like a Piker vs. 1000 Pikers identical to the first).

It probably would not work with Pikers, but what about Ninjas? Ever hear of the Inverse Ninja Law?
Probably doesn't apply to Erfworld mechanics but then again, knowing Erf's sense of humor it just might apply in some situation.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Perhaps... or perhaps it's us downing them. Am I missing something about your argument? I read it earlier, but it struck me as off-point. Specifically, when you took this argument to it's illogical conclusion, you ignored that we're debating whether magical items are a more efficient use of juice than making units. Or at least I am.

I agree that the possibility for magic items changing hands is absolutely no reason to not use magic items... one shouldn't bank on failing.

We're saying the same thing, more or less.

If the discussion is "items or summons, which is better", then I can't claim one side is obviously superior to the other. I, and probably none of y'all, know enough to make it so clear cut so as to make the wrong option "the silliest thing I ever heard".

What I think is obviously wrong though is the idea that the possibility of items changing hands is an argument against items. You've put it best: "one shouldn't bank on failing".

Of course, if an army is faced with a hopeless situation, then arranging for the high level Warlords to get the hell outta Dodge, with all the high-powered items they can carry, completely makes sense. What doesn't is to have the possibility of a hopeless situation as the default assumption. Why go to war at all in that case?