Kalak wrote:Stay classy, Kreistor.
Are you implying a lack of class? Because that was a constructively expressed negative opinion. Those do exist.
CNagy wrote: Perhaps equipment has an effect on upkeep? A baseless guess, but it would be one way to encourage hoarding rather than using. Alternatively, magic items have been mentioned as things that are sometimes sold (such as Parson being told what certain mathamancy-dependent sides would pay for his bracer) so they could be another means of bolstering the treasury when needed. Probably good in trade for diplomacy, too.
While baseless, the guess on equipment vs. upkeep is an interesting paranthetical. My guess is that equipment costs no upkeep as opposed to units, say, like Cloth Golems.
I also note that if you assume magic items would not be used for fear of being captured (I'll return to that idea later), trading them would not be a big business. If you don't want to use them for fear you might lose them, why buy any?
CNagy wrote:With Dollamancers, though, it could just come down to opportunity cost; how many cloth golems' worth of juice does it take to make this, that, or the other item? Does the increased combat ability of the unit outweigh the increased combat usefulness of additional units, etc.
This is the one plausible point on this issue, imo. That is exactly what it boils down to. My guess is that we've seen Slately aquire a boopload of items all at once only because Ace had a boopload of items lying around from tens/hundreds of previous turns, and it was easier to fit them on Slately's regalia.
So it would not be the case that buidling items is cheap, and then they'd be exactly as rare as we've seen them. They crop up here and there, but only sometimes.
CNagy wrote:There would have to be some drawback--aside from the obvious one of supplying your enemies with magical items in the battles that they win--to explain why magic items aren't in wide circulation.
MarbitChow wrote:You don't need much more than that. You don't give magic items to level 1 units; they get chewed through. Your high-level units already have massive bulls-eyes painted on them since their leadership bonuses apply to everyone.
I'm sorry, but that's a stupid idea. "Oh of course we won't fit our grunts with quality weapons and armor, just in case we lose the battle". Right. Maybe,
if the option existed to equip all grunts with light sabers you wouldn't lose the battle in the first place. This "logic" is seen most clearly when claiming that magic items would make high level units to be even juicier targets (and implying that's a strike against magic items). Sure, ok. Send your warlords to battle naked*. Or better yet, don't send any warlords since as bonus providing units they have fat bullseyes on them anyway.
*: some of them may benefit from Flash effects on the enemy in this scenario but I trust you get the point.
I'd also like to point out that Dollamancers exist that work for rulers of Erfworld and as such their primary duty is to that side, not the MK. Therefore, the MK is not the only supplier of items. Further, this discussion started about how useful would a Dollamancer be for the side that owned them. It's not about any shady trade policies that the MK might be able to enforce on itself.
DoctorJest wrote:Hardly, since Ace apparently did. Most dollamancers, from what we've seen, don't make magic items, but instead make entire units (tchotchkies, dolls, etc). Free units are likely seen as a better use of Dollamancer Juice than magic items by most rulers (and, in most cases, that's probably true: making a unit vs enhancing an existing unit is probably better, like it is in most TBS games).
No. "Most rulers" that we know of and are relevant to the discussion are: Slately. The rest of the argument cannot, at this time, be properly discussed- see the second quoted thing in this post and my response. I'd also note that depending on your TBS, upgraded units are way better than having more, but lower level, units. Any kind of hero unit in any kind of game follows this logic (heck, one Heroes 4 40th level hero is a pain to dispatch for a group of 30th+ level heroes). And several of the games I'm thinking of do not even have unit upkeep.
This is relevant because units cost upkeep in Erfworld, but so far, we've not seen any evidence that items incur a similar cost, whether used or kept in storage. So if you can get better units at no extra upkeep cost, or more units but at increased upkeep cost, it's not at all clear which option is better and there should be a lean towards the first.
The real questions are- what items can be made, how much does it cost to make them, how quickly can they be constructed? Similar questions for the units summonable by Dollamancy.
And to keep things consistent with what we've seen, I'd guess that build time is the limiting factor on the number of items available in the world (and possibly that Golems are easier to make; much easier, as Sizemore's immediate summon of several UberStrong Rock Gowems showed).
coyotenose wrote:4. Enchanting magic items probably requires expensive, quality components. {snip}
5. Using magic items in combat could very well reduce experience awards. {snip}
6. Related to #5, artificially inflated units simply don't learn as much. They'll tend to rely on their strength of arms too much. {snip}
8. Is there a caster type that is good at ranged disenchanting? That would shut down mass magic item production strategies right quick.
Care to explain what evidence there is for any of those ideas? And about 8, no it wouldn't. Compare and contrast Earth, where we have this enchantment called life, and these wonderful ranged disenchanters called weapons. Nonetheless, wars happen (which sometimes include such tactics like human waves) and the population increases anyway.
coyotenose wrote:7. There are probably tradeoffs when switching in magic items.
Yes there probably are, if any TBS in existence is any indication. Have your hero wield the Claw of Bethrezen will make them a lightning fast melee powerhouse, but prevents them from turning struck enemies into chickens, which they would be able to do if the used the Witch Staff instead (but if they used that, they wouldn't get the speed and attack bonus). So what? Have your selection of items, think about how to use it- it's basic tactics.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
