Book 2 – Page 73

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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby 0beron » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:04 pm

I know this has been repeated a few times by myself alone, yet it seems some people continue to ignore it.
The tactical situation (with a chronology and citations included, as I have neglected to do previously) of Spacerock is thus:

Atrium (Courtyard): Controlled by Gowbin Knob.
  • All Jetstone units were croaked/decrypted in the Fall (Page 53)
  • Tramennis barricaded the doorway to the Tower (Page 53) and then moved (presumably through the rooms in the Atrium walls) to the gateway between the Atrium and City (Page 58)
  • It was from this gate that Tramennis attempted to charge back to the King's rescue, and was Sonic-Drive-thru-ed (Page 60) which incapacitated him and forced the troops to withdraw back into the city.
  • In Text 50 Text 51 and Text 52, Artemis leads an attack on Sylvia and fails, croaking along with all of her knights.
Based on the above events, and the fact that the Atrium was specifically ordered to be evacuated, we can conclude it lies either empty or within GK control.

Dungeon: Contested
  • In Text 48 Slately feels his units in the dungeon croaking, indicating that combat is still under way.
  • Antium specifically implores Wanda to "go forth and mop up the dungeon" on Page 70, after Wanda had consolidated her forces in the Portal room.
Based on the above facts, we can conclude that there are still Jetstone units in the Dungeon.

Thus, the ONLY way the Portal will close now is for the King to croak without Tramennis as an heir. And because he is flying now, this is no longer tied to the tower falling. In other words (unbeknownst to any GK unit at present), there is no longer any way that the Tower falling can close the portal (unless the collapse damages the dungeon as well, but that is speculation and my analysis is based just on what we presently know to be true about city mechanics)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Not Me » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:16 pm

Just to add something.
If I'm not mistaken (see Last Panel Here), Ossomer's move right now is 0 so he can't escape the city even though he is now a Jetstone unit.
Even more, he shouldn't even be able to enter the Garrison (any of it's three areas) until next turn since he is stuck in the Airspace zone.

EDIT: My mistake, since he is now defending, he can still move anywhere around the city, although his move is still 0 so he shouldn't be able to get out of the city on his own or in the carpet until his next turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby 0beron » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:22 pm

Correct, because a unit's move sets to 0 at the end of it's turn, and even if a unit switches sides or joins an alliance later that same day, it still has no move left (though presumably it can do other things units can do on their turn such as attack and cast)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Goshen » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:26 pm

He's already done the best thing he can do, by simply not being an enemy unit. Now his father and retinue don't have to spend move and attacks killing him While they're trying to make their getaway.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:29 pm

0beron wrote:Correct, because a unit's move sets to 0 at the end of it's turn, and even if a unit switches sides or joins an alliance later that same day, it still has no move left (though presumably it can do other things units can do on their turn such as attack and cast)


On the other hand, moving around in a city you control is free (I think - check Parson's notes in Book 1), so Ossomer may be able to move around inside Spacerock even with 0 move. Escaping is probably not an option for him though.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Goshen » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:41 pm

0beron wrote:Correct, because a unit's move sets to 0 at the end of it's turn, and even if a unit switches sides or joins an alliance later that same day, it still has no move left (though presumably it can do other things units can do on their turn such as attack and cast)

Could another unit with move grab him and move away? Sort of like the Parson's Dwagon relay exploit.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby 0beron » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:56 pm

Correct, because a unit's move sets to 0 at the end of it's turn, and even if a unit switches sides or joins an alliance later that same day, it still has no move left (though presumably it can do other things units can do on their turn such as attack and cast)

WaterMonkey314 wrote:On the other hand, moving around in a city you control is free (I think - check Parson's notes in Book 1), so Ossomer may be able to move around inside Spacerock even with 0 move. Escaping is probably not an option for him though.

Goshen wrote:Could another unit with move grab him and move away? Sort of like the Parson's Dwagon relay exploit.


Both of these are indeed possibilities. He can move around the city because he is on the side that controls it, though he would need to ride a mount in order to leave the city hex.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Balerion » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:37 pm

0beron wrote:Both of these are indeed possibilities. He can move around the city because he is on the side that controls it, though he would need to ride a mount in order to leave the city hex.


Hearing that made me think that we've been set up for slately to order a mount given to ossomer to continue the side. Maybe they have to kill some archons first to make sure he is an heir, as opposed to leaving it to chance. But we were told about the dragon relay and shown that jetstone knew how to do it in text updates, and slately was just despairing of how he was a sorry sample of royalty and should have been a warrior king. Given a choice between saving Trem, the son he never really liked, or Ossomer, his warrior ideal... If slately still wants to go down with his city, Ossomer is the one he will want to get out. Wonder if that jetpack grants move...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Kreistor » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:39 pm

So, suddenly, an abomination becomes a wonderful new friend, just because he is no longer an enemy? That demands the question, "Why was he an abomination in the first place?"

I don't buy it. On Jetstone side or not, Ossomer is never to be trusted.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Tyrilean » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:05 am

You know, it seems as though the more decrypted she's put under her spell, the more individuality we've seen within the decrypted.

I wonder if the Arkenpliers are only able to control so many, and each additional unit under control stretches that power further, until it is a fine thread which can be easily snapped.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Revenant » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:43 am

Kaed wrote:I think you all might be looking at this the wrong way. All this talk about Loyalty Buffs and Checks and such is a neat, but have you considered that perhaps it is simply psychology that caused Ossomer's turn, not some magic statistical attribute?

You talk like there is a meaningful difference.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:58 am

Revenant wrote:
Kaed wrote:I think you all might be looking at this the wrong way. All this talk about Loyalty Buffs and Checks and such is a neat, but have you considered that perhaps it is simply psychology that caused Ossomer's turn, not some magic statistical attribute?

You talk like there is a meaningful difference.

There is, if the stat is externally enforced. We think of stats as an abstract representation of an attribute or ability, but Erfworld stats may be actively controlled by outside forces. Move is the most obvious example, but loyalty checks may be a common form of mind control designed to continue conflict in the "game".

Even if you don't believe in free will, you can think of it as the difference between a program running its original course and a hex editor being used to switch one of the internal settings. Both are deterministic, but one is active and externally imposed.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Kreistor » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:40 am

MarbitChow wrote:Move is the most obvious example, but loyalty checks may be a common form of mind control designed to continue conflict in the "game".


Loyalty isn't even a confirmed stat: neither is Duty, Obedience, or Experience. It is a theoretical stat. Remember that people will form theroies as an extension of what they know as fact, so for a people for whom Stats are real, the most natural explanation is for evrything to be a Stat.

We could give everyone stats on Earth, if we wanted. Could we somehow tell if they were internally or externally enforced? It's impossible to tell from the inside, and unless you can see the rules enforced, impossible from the outside. All we can see is the methods people use to justify their choice to change Sides.

In other words... if it is externally forced, we will never know. And the effect is subtle enough that even the local inhabitants can't be certain, so it really is an irrelevant point. The effect is complex enough that the enforcement creates an adequately subtle and effective justification to hide the effect.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Vorteks » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:51 am

Aster Azul wrote:It's like this whole arc is an unrequited love story between Parson and the portal. They're so close, yet they can never touch.


I LOLed when I read this.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby kagato23 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:19 am

Kreistor wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:Move is the most obvious example, but loyalty checks may be a common form of mind control designed to continue conflict in the "game".


Loyalty isn't even a confirmed stat: neither is Duty, Obedience, or Experience. It is a theoretical stat. Remember that people will form theroies as an extension of what they know as fact, so for a people for whom Stats are real, the most natural explanation is for evrything to be a Stat.

We could give everyone stats on Earth, if we wanted. Could we somehow tell if they were internally or externally enforced? It's impossible to tell from the inside, and unless you can see the rules enforced, impossible from the outside. All we can see is the methods people use to justify their choice to change Sides.

In other words... if it is externally forced, we will never know. And the effect is subtle enough that even the local inhabitants can't be certain, so it really is an irrelevant point. The effect is complex enough that the enforcement creates an adequately subtle and effective justification to hide the effect.


Actually, they are all confirmed stats, just not ones that are "known" in the sense that they can't be read like stats such as move. But we know obedience exists, units can disband over it. We know Loyalty exists because thinkamancy and turnamancy spells can alter it. Duty I'll give you, though considering how this world works I'd be surprised if there weren't a few items artifacts out there (with obvious earth parallels to various comic book mind control helmets) that can alter Duty when equipped.

But that aside, I think your main point is right. In a world where mathamancy is an actual "science", and stats are a thing that exists, people are going to assume the unknown works the same. But it doesn't matter in cases like this.

The fact they are stats that determine your chances of disobeying/turning implies that even for higher numbers, there's still a chance. We've seen this with Caesar, who's duty and loyalty have actually caused his disobedience, but previously we've seen him obey orders he disagreed with, but first and foremost still cares for his side. Rather then a DnD type dice roll, where "if order/situation has x+1 points of disagreement for the unit, x being his loyalty stat, he will turn", the effects can be cumulative. Rather, I suspect the stat if quantifiable is defined more like "if unit has x+1 points of dissatisfaction with his side", which is still measured by his overall mental state in context.

I would say however that they are externally enforced based on how the rest of the world works, or at least externally defined. The decision to turn has literally made Ossamer change his colors on the spot. It's ultimately academic though, because external or internal the actual cause and effect are identical: Ossamer's new side had so many challenges to his sense of honor and conduct that he couldn't continue on that side.

Kreistor wrote:So, suddenly, an abomination becomes a wonderful new friend, just because he is no longer an enemy? That demands the question, "Why was he an abomination in the first place?"

I don't buy it. On Jetstone side or not, Ossomer is never to be trusted.


But it does depend on why he's considered an abomination. These things were never fully defined. It may not simply be because he's a unit that croaked and is no longer croaked. All the resurrected units turned immediately. Regardless of previous allegiance, alignment or even beliefs, they all turned to one side and one philosophy, at times contrasting completely who they were before. Slately might see the transitional of his loyal sons from proud Jetstone paragons to men screaming things such as "royalty is obsolete" as the abomination, the seizure of will more then the restructuring of flesh. Suppose, for example, had Slately had an attuned arkentool at his command. He might object to using it on enemy troops, or want them disbanded after any given engagement, but might see no problem with bringing any of his own, already loyal to jetstone forces back.

I suspect we will know soon enough, if he's really turned then Stanley should be able to sense it, especially since he's just been equipped with something that would reaffirm that it's not just some fool/thinkamancy trick.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Roketter » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:45 pm

I posted this a while ago...

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by Roketter » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:07 pm

One question i'm not sure's been asked before... can decrypted be disbanded ?

It seems they have their own toughts, ideas and are to all matters alive except when they get dusted just like decrypted. They are very different from decroaked in that they retain their own minds to some extent while geting just a major swap on loyalties and beliefs.

However they don't seem more controlled than any of than the rest of erfworld's units via natural thinkamancy. Ossomer's been getting closer and closer to questioning Wanda with each passing moment and we don't see any magical bang from the pliers to restore his loyalty back to 100%. The turnamancer couldn't turn Ansom, but that only means that either the decrypted are unable to voluntarily switch sides or they are imunne to mind-affecting spells. That doesn't mean they can perform coups within their own side.

Perhaps if Ossomer's loyalty goes into the negatives his actions will be still controlled by Wanda in the same way she controls all of the uncroaked, and become an unwilling puppet. Still there are too many decrypted right now for her to control every single unit's actions. What if they end up raising against her ? Common sense would dictate she should disband them... but she's not the faction leader so she can't.

Disbanding can only be done by the faction leader... and nobody knows wether Stanley can disband units that Wanda has decrypted with the pliers.

If the decrypted are real tools of the titans, then their loyalty is absolute towards them just as Wanda is loyal to fate magic only. Should there come a point when they believe that Wanda is not enforcing the Titans will but her own, Gobwin Knob and the world would have a massive trouble on their hands...

A huge mass of units who won't answer to any faction, with no upkeep and pretty much free will to wage war on any side without regards to erfworld's rules.


Yeah for my predictomancy!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:26 pm

Kreistor wrote:So, suddenly, an abomination becomes a wonderful new friend, just because he is no longer an enemy? That demands the question, "Why was he an abomination in the first place?"

I don't buy it. On Jetstone side or not, Ossomer is never to be trusted.


Ossomer might be honestly converted back to Jetstonian colours. But I agree, whether he is trusted by Jetstone is another matter.

I think he might try to overzealously serve the interests of the Radish kingdom, as new converts are wont to do. I think he will regain the trust. Possibly, this may mean that people (maybe not just Jetstone, but the MK, Jillian, Transylvito ...) will rethink their stance on the Decrypted.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:48 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Possibly, this may mean that people (maybe not just Jetstone, but the MK, Jillian, Transylvito ...) will rethink their stance on the Decrypted.

Or, like the traditional "undead good guy" (Angel, Blade, etc.), it will just make him fight that much harder against them.
At least until Wanda bops him with the 'Pliers and turns him back, then torments the bejebus out of him for attempting to resist her influence...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby effataigus » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:51 pm

Poor Ansom... guy is held prisoner by an irrational ex-girlfriend who now has proof that her mind controlled boyfriend *could* have turned back if he had really wanted to. Not to mention how awkward things are going to be with Pops.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Kreistor » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:02 pm

kagato23 wrote:Actually, they are all confirmed stats, just not ones that are "known" in the sense that they can't be read like stats such as move. But we know obedience exists, units can disband over it. We know Loyalty exists because thinkamancy and turnamancy spells can alter it. Duty I'll give you, though considering how this world works I'd be surprised if there weren't a few items artifacts out there (with obvious earth parallels to various comic book mind control helmets) that can alter Duty when equipped.


Remember who told parson that -- peopel that believe in Stats. Is Obedience a "stat"? It's not a number, since it's not variable. You do what you're told, unless certain conditions are met. That's Natural thinkamancy, certainly, but no number represents variability.

Loyalty is an "unknowable" stat. If you can't know the number, and you don't know the mechanic, then it's not a stat. It's a theory.

And Duty? "Has higher affect [sic] on Warloards, highest on Chief Warlord." That's not a stat, it's a function of the job. Again, it's a Rule, but not necessarily a Stat.

Experience was confirmed as a theoretical stat by Word of the Titans.

But that aside, I think your main point is right. In a world where mathamancy is an actual "science", and stats are a thing that exists, people are going to assume the unknown works the same. But it doesn't matter in cases like this.


Thanks.

The fact they are stats that determine your chances of disobeying/turning implies that even for higher numbers, there's still a chance.


Is it a "chance"? If it were random, we'd see random people converting when suggested they Turn. It hasn't been so. We see peopel Turning for good reasons, not randomly rationalized reasons. If it's not random, then the number is irrelevant. We can rate people's Loyalty in this world (mine is very low, according to some people), but real Loyalty is far more complex than a number. Some people will nto turn traitor for any amount of money, but the right girl can twist them around her finger and get them to do anything. And vice versa. Brainwashing can turn anyone, given time, but the same person that takes years to wear down may switch for very little cash. Loyalty is complex, and while the Erfworlders may convince themselves that there must be a stat or rule, it carries into the Free Will discussion.

Ossomer is a great example. Ossomer's hang-up is Honor, but he joined an Honorless side when he decrypted. If he really has Turned, did he Turn partially because he disagreed with his Side's tactics? In that case, tehre is no Stat... it's Free Will wearing down his Loyalty, just like it would in our world... no Rule or Stat required.

Love to talk more, but gotta go.
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