Kreistor wrote:MarbitChow wrote:Move is the most obvious example, but loyalty checks may be a common form of mind control designed to continue conflict in the "game".
Loyalty isn't even a confirmed stat: neither is Duty, Obedience, or Experience. It is a theoretical stat. Remember that people will form theroies as an extension of what they know as fact, so for a people for whom Stats are real, the most natural explanation is for evrything to be a Stat.
We could give everyone stats on Earth, if we wanted. Could we somehow tell if they were internally or externally enforced? It's impossible to tell from the inside, and unless you can see the rules enforced, impossible from the outside. All we can see is the methods people use to justify their choice to change Sides.
In other words... if it is externally forced, we will never know. And the effect is subtle enough that even the local inhabitants can't be certain, so it really is an irrelevant point. The effect is complex enough that the enforcement creates an adequately subtle and effective justification to hide the effect.
Actually, they are all confirmed stats, just not ones that are "known" in the sense that they can't be read like stats such as move. But we know obedience exists, units can disband over it. We know Loyalty exists because thinkamancy and turnamancy spells can alter it. Duty I'll give you, though considering how this world works I'd be surprised if there weren't a few items artifacts out there (with obvious earth parallels to various comic book mind control helmets) that can alter Duty when equipped.
But that aside, I think your main point is right. In a world where mathamancy is an actual "science", and stats are a thing that exists, people are going to assume the unknown works the same. But it doesn't matter in cases like this.
The fact they are stats that determine your chances of disobeying/turning implies that even for higher numbers, there's still a chance. We've seen this with Caesar, who's duty and loyalty have actually caused his disobedience, but previously we've seen him obey orders he disagreed with, but first and foremost still cares for his side. Rather then a DnD type dice roll, where "if order/situation has x+1 points of disagreement for the unit, x being his loyalty stat, he will turn", the effects can be cumulative. Rather, I suspect the stat if quantifiable is defined more like "if unit has x+1 points of dissatisfaction with his side", which is still measured by his overall mental state in context.
I would say however that they are externally enforced based on how the rest of the world works, or at least externally defined. The decision to turn has literally made Ossamer change his colors on the spot. It's ultimately academic though, because external or internal the actual cause and effect are identical: Ossamer's new side had so many challenges to his sense of honor and conduct that he couldn't continue on that side.
Kreistor wrote:So, suddenly, an abomination becomes a wonderful new friend, just because he is no longer an enemy? That demands the question, "Why was he an abomination in the first place?"
I don't buy it. On Jetstone side or not, Ossomer is never to be trusted.
But it does depend on why he's considered an abomination. These things were never fully defined. It may not simply be because he's a unit that croaked and is no longer croaked. All the resurrected units turned immediately. Regardless of previous allegiance, alignment or even beliefs, they all turned to one side and one philosophy, at times contrasting completely who they were before. Slately might see the transitional of his loyal sons from proud Jetstone paragons to men screaming things such as "royalty is obsolete" as the abomination, the seizure of will more then the restructuring of flesh. Suppose, for example, had Slately had an attuned arkentool at his command. He might object to using it on enemy troops, or want them disbanded after any given engagement, but might see no problem with bringing any of his own, already loyal to jetstone forces back.
I suspect we will know soon enough, if he's really turned then Stanley should be able to sense it, especially since he's just been equipped with something that would reaffirm that it's not just some fool/thinkamancy trick.
