Book 2 – Page 73

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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:29 pm

Kaed wrote:I think you all might be looking at this the wrong way. All this talk about Loyalty Buffs and Checks and such is a neat, but have you considered that perhaps it is simply psychology that caused Ossomer's turn, not some magic statistical attribute?


I agree. Many Decrypted just, at least, go through the motions of being loyal to Wanda if not outright worship her. Even when she's not in the hex.

I'm curious how Slately will react to that part though. Ossomer after all is an abomination in the eyes of the Titans, right? I mean, would zombies wearing USA undies suddenly be cool to hang out with? They'd probably still want to munch your brains. Likewise, I don't think Slately will trust Ossomer all that much.

Poor guy can't get a break. Everyone is treating him badly.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Steve-D » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:33 pm

Well I guess they have enough leadership to fight their way out through airspace and back to Space Rock.

Is Ossomer Chief Warlord again? Presumably not, but he's probably heir again.

Is Cubins doomed? Ace seems to be reaching for him, but Cubins is touching his hat? Saluting maybe?

What can Wanda do to help Parson through the portal, if Jack is now out of juice?

Long time for an update, but this is a big improvement on some of the previous ones.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby mortissimus » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:43 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:So I expect the outcome of the future battle to be yet another whattheboop moment.


Here I'd like to note that the current Jetstone chief warlord has stated (page 43) that he wants an alliance with Gobwin Knob.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Sixty » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:44 pm

badninja wrote:Nice, now this battle has gotten interesting. So how will Wanda take this little development? As history has shown us, not well. So now the battle will swing in Jetstone's favor so how will Parson respond?


Volcanoes. Don't ask how. Just link enough casters together until he can make a volcano.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby teratorn » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:59 pm

Ossomer never cared about the pliers, even when he tried them. Quite different from Ansom and Sylvia. Ossomer never cared about Royalty or even about the titans that much. His loyalty was to his father and having to fight him broke Wanda's grasp, facilitated by her absence. The author repeated Jillian's choice and once again Wanda lost.

It's not a question of distance, archons have been patrolling outside of GK and kept their new loyalty. I think that only having to fight Charlie in person would make them change.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby technojunkie » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:16 pm

I'm going to split with consensus here. I've been harboring a thought for a while now that decrypted actually possess free will. They may demonstrate loyalty to Wanda because they like their situation or don't know any better. Imagine training a dog to use an invisible fence, then after a few years turning that fence off.

I think that folks like Ansom and Sylvia accept their new situation as service to the titans and willingly stay loyal to Wanda, thus their signamancy has them sporting the flowered skull livery. Ossommer has quite awesomely asserted the force of will required to willingly change loyalty to his father, and his signamancy has changed accordingly.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Squall83 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:25 pm

ThatOneMoogle wrote:I don't believe that Wanda can see through Ossomer's eyes, I think the second-to-last panel was more a "Poink" moment, where Wanda felt the turning of the decrypted as Ossomer rejected the arkenpliers.

Also: I think it's too soon to assume there's a distance limit on the effects of the Arkenpliers, though it is a reasonable theory given that Ossomer only turned after Wanda was removed from his hex.

Have we seen Decrypted at any point in the story without Wanda in their hex? If not, one might wonder if the decrypted need Wanda with them in order to stay loyal to their side.

I think that it's never too soon for assumptions of any kind, like a distance limit for the pliers. It's just too soon for definite statements. ;) But I think it's a good guess that its power weakens when Wanda is quite far away, like in MK.

Also yup, apart from Ansom being outside the hex (which was mentioned already) there was the city Zamussels conquered a bunch of hexes away. It had 2/3 decrypted units if I remember correctly.

Vorteks wrote:
Squall83 wrote:So apparently there's a distance limit to decryption: The farther you go away from them, the less their loyalty to you. But I don't think Sylvia will turn because she enjoys fighting for GK, while Ossomer never did.

Interestingly Wanda still seems to be able to look through Ossomer's eyes. So what exactly is he now?


I'm not sure about the assumptions here. Ossomer's been showing signs of dissatisfaction/turning for a while. I think the tower collapsing was just the straw that broke the camel's back. The "No! My family! My city!" emotion he was feeling was enough to push him over the edge. I'm guessing Wanda's proximity wasn't a factor.

Also, I don't think that Wanda was looking out of Ossomer's eyes. I think she just had a little "ping" of awareness when he turned, similar to how Stanley knew when his dragons died or when Parson went to the magic kingdom. Wanda probably saw Ossomer's torch go out in her mind, so to speak.

Well, as far as I saw it the tower didn't collapse. The portal only seemed to vanish due to some foolamancy. Also you can see the tower "intact" in the last panel. Therefore I think Ossomer needed some distance to the Pliers to be able to turn.

If Wanda can't see through Ossomer's eyes, then maybe she used the Archons to have a look. But oh well, we'll see about that. I'm curious if Ossomer can be killed and decrypted again, though I wouldn't like to actually see it happening. ^^
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:32 pm

technojunkie wrote:I'm going to split with consensus here. I've been harboring a thought for a while now that decrypted actually possess free will. They may demonstrate loyalty to Wanda because they like their situation or don't know any better. Imagine training a dog to use an invisible fence, then after a few years turning that fence off.


"He loved her. There was no other word for it. He remembered hating her. He remembered nearly everything from his life as a Prince of Jetstone. None of it mattered. His life was hers, so very literally."
Ansom's opinion flipped like a switch after his decryption. If he has free will, it's the same level of free will that crack addicts have.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby teratorn » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:40 pm

technojunkie wrote: I've been harboring a thought for a while now that decrypted actually possess free will.


Jillian also thought she had free will when following Wanda's suggestion spell. Like in the suggestion spell the decrypted love Wanda and will not go against her unless the conflict (like going against someone they love) is too much for them to rationalize.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby vintermann » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:44 pm

Possibilities from Ossomer's turning, from the most boring to the most exciting.

It could be that he has just turned, because distance matters for the pliers/bonus matters for pliers loyalty. I doubt this.

It could be that he hasn't technically turned. Maybe he's right, and that is impossible. The change of livery could just be signamancy suggesting that he plans to follow through on his father's request to stand still and be dusted (which is probably within his power anyway, since it would require initiative - in other words duty - to do something else).

A third possibility, is that the magic kingdom negates the effect of the pliers somehow. It was mentioned that Wanda didn't visit the magic kingdom at all after getting the pliers, so if whatever powers the MK blocks the power of the (other?) tools, we wouldn't know about it. Charlie does not visit the MK either. Maybe Wanda knew there was a potential problem. She could have had predictamancy on it, or she could just be concerned for some magic-theoretic reason.

If the pliers don't reach outside the MK, it could very well be that more decrypted than Ossomer are free ... it could even be all the currently decrypted. Wouldn't that be fun?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby ThatOneMoogle » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:22 pm

You know, after reading over the comic again and digging through the archives, I think we've just seen something truly momentous occur in Ossomer.

Consider: Every decrypted, without fail, has converted to Wanda-ism almost from the get-go -- including Ossomer, though he was a bit confused at first, presumably because of conflicting emotions. Every decrypted since then, without fail, has stuck to the belief that Wanda is an emissary of the Titans and that her cause is some sort of holy crusade to which they bend themselves utterly. Now, I suppose this could have something to do with the loyalty stat, but for my money, it seems to go far beyond any "mere" loyalty. The turnamancer was unable to turn Ansome from a distance and didn't even know what she was looking at when she tried, suggesting that there's a force that goes beyond the simple loyalty statistic at work.

And now look at Wanda's expression in that last panel, and at Ossomer's expression as well. He didn't just "turn."

He "Broke."

This was not a subtle "I'm going over to your side now" thing. Look at Wanda's face. This was enough to cause her what looks like physical pain, as though something inside had been shattered. It is a look similar to what she looked like after Jillian's betrayal, but far more pronounced here.

Something very powerful just happened. For my money, it looks very much like Ossomer shook off a Titan-strength mind-control spell, and Wanda's experiencing the backlash from that. I don't think that's exactly what happened, but I think it's similar. I think Ossomer isn't just a warlord anymore. I think he's become something else, and I think whatever he is, he is very, very powerful now.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Sieggy » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:39 pm

Yeah, he 'broke', but the rules of irony and foreshadowing would indicate that Slately is going to croak him before Ossomer can get a word out other than "Father! I'm b AAAACCCKKKK!!". Poor Oss is going to get all of 2 seconds of being free of Wanda before catching the express train to the City of Heroes. Which means it's up to Sylvia to save the day for GK . . .

Edit: Who's the figure up in the right corner in the last panel, on the Unipeg wearing what appears appears to be a blue Phrygian cap . . ?

Another edit: Never mind, it's Pierce.
Last edited by Sieggy on Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Lukmar » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:48 pm

As Overlord, Slately might be able to realise Ossomer has turned back to Jetstone just before he charges.

If Slately pauses/hesitates, that would allow Ossomer a chance to provide further proof of his renewed loyalty (in addition to the signamancy): saving Cubbins by swooping in with the carpet and catching the caster before he goes down with the rest of the tower and the archers.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby ThatOneMoogle » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:57 pm

Sieggy wrote:Yeah, he 'broke', but the rules of irony and foreshadowing would indicate that Slately is going to croak him before Ossomer can get a word out other than "Father! I'm b AAAACCCKKKK!!". Poor Oss is going to get all of 2 seconds of being free of Wanda before catching the express train to the City of Heroes. Which means it's up to Sylvia to save the day for GK . . .

Edit: Who's the figure up in the right corner in the last panel, on the Unipeg wearing what appears appears to be a blue Phrygian cap . . ?



A blue what?

...

Oh, the dude on the far right? That's the martini-swilling caster that Slately employed.

Also: No way Slately croaks Ossomer. The signamancy combined with the switch from an expression of utter despair to pure ungodly determination would be enough to stop ANYone from taking a shot at the warlord.

I mean, seriously, Dirty Harry had no where NEAR as scary a look.

Also, I really gotta give props to Xin's artwork. This is some of the best drawings I've ever seen in my life. The expressions, the setup... Pure and holy awesome.

ETA: More specifically, on the dude riding the Unipeg: He's Hawkeye Pierce, Alan Alda's character from the old M*A*S*H TV show. The martini should have tipped me off. Likely a healamancer, given his medical status as chief surgeon in the show.
Last edited by ThatOneMoogle on Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby madmaw » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:58 pm

For some reason I am reminded of this line

"...Wanda disliked this one. It was as if, instead of promoting a warlord from the ranks, someone had gone down to the larder and promoted a side of beef."

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_20
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby Brucester » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:08 pm

vintermann wrote:A third possibility, is that the magic kingdom negates the effect of the pliers somehow. It was mentioned that Wanda didn't visit the magic kingdom at all after getting the pliers, so if whatever powers the MK blocks the power of the (other?) tools, we wouldn't know about it. Charlie does not visit the MK either. Maybe Wanda knew there was a potential problem. She could have had predictamancy on it, or she could just be concerned for some magic-theoretic reason.

If the pliers don't reach outside the MK, it could very well be that more decrypted than Ossomer are free ... it could even be all the currently decrypted. Wouldn't that be fun?


My money is on this one. The Magic Kingdom is a place where casters are summoned from, or return to. It's outside the side - it's outside the game. Effectively a caster in the MK is *not in play*. Therefore magics employed in the MK do not affect the outside world.

Hence Ossamer turns, Ansom turns, Sylvia turns. And the decrypted units will either croak or turn.

Strange update really. Wanda was very stupid. Surely she would know that the decrypted must stay in the same proximity (same hex?) as her. Even Gillian was trying to get Ansom out of range for him to turn.

Does anyone think that Stately will run down Ossamer and not realise that he's back with Jetstone?

I think GK is stuffed now (for the moment) Pushing Wanda back through the portal isn't going to restore her units to her allegiance. Even if Parson goes through now they're stuffed as there is probably very little of an army left to command - the hobgobwin heavies.... What else?

But still, Rob wouldn't have brought it this far just to have Parson say that it's a lost cause and head back to GK to be disciplined by the Tool. Whatever comes next I just hope it moves quicker than the last 10-12 pages.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby teratorn » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:51 pm

Brucester wrote:My money is on this one. The Magic Kingdom is a place where casters are summoned from, or return to. It's outside the side - it's outside the game. Effectively a caster in the MK is *not in play*. Therefore magics employed in the MK do not affect the outside world.


The Magic kingdom is an island in Erfworld. Thinkamancers had no problem talking to Maggie, and they feared the arkendish would listen to them inside the Magic Kingdom.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby BrotherRool » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:05 pm

Kaed wrote:I think you all might be looking at this the wrong way. All this talk about Loyalty Buffs and Checks and such is a neat, but have you considered that perhaps it is simply psychology that caused Ossomer's turn, not some magic statistical attribute?

Think about how Ossomer was treated from even before the moment he was Decrypted - like a prisoner, summarily executed without even bothering to try and talk to him first. Then he was brought back, and treated like shit continually afterwards. Whereas Wanda showed respect of a sort to Ansom, she felt Ossomer was 'a chunk of meat' and not worthy of her attention. Instead of letting him participate in any battle 'for the Titans', she sent him to sit up in the air and stare at his father and listen to him talk about honor and all that shiz.

I think what's going on here is everyone who is Decryped has a single-time equivelant of a Loyalty boost in which they come to understand they are serving the will of the Titans. Since almost all of Erfworld seems to be highly religious, that would make them feel like following Wanda was the best idea ever. Or in the case of the Archons, kind of divided on that since Charlie used to be their entire world, not the titans.

However, with how much Ossomer has been mistreated, when Wanda finally leaves the hex(which I'm sure he would feel since he's a Warlord) that was the final straw. His loyalty finally broke with her cowardly abandonment of the battle, dispelling any 'doubts' he had about her dishonorable conduct.

It's cool but the reason it's probably wrong is just the way the words and events are arranged in the update. The way Parson was talking about Wanda losing her bonus an- Ansoms turned! is a narrative technique to help us link the two together and it's something of an anti-climax or a disappointing miss of an expected event if the two aren't connected that way.

I think the way Erfworld works is that real life and stats are two sides of a coin. Apart from some of the things that can't be reasoned (like popping) there isn't segregation of the two. So a loyalty stat is what dictates a units loyalty but at the same time, it's also just a reflection of the psychology of the individual that leads to that loyalty. It even goes further, Wanda leaving and so reducing her dominating presence and influence is just the other side of the coin from "losing bonuses". So you are completely right, just not in suggesting that stats don't have the same weight either. Parsons MMO is to explore how reality and mechanics relate and abuse that where possible


Brucester wrote:
vintermann wrote:A third possibility, is that the magic kingdom negates the effect of the pliers somehow. It was mentioned that Wanda didn't visit the magic kingdom at all after getting the pliers, so if whatever powers the MK blocks the power of the (other?) tools, we wouldn't know about it. Charlie does not visit the MK either. Maybe Wanda knew there was a potential problem. She could have had predictamancy on it, or she could just be concerned for some magic-theoretic reason.

If the pliers don't reach outside the MK, it could very well be that more decrypted than Ossomer are free ... it could even be all the currently decrypted. Wouldn't that be fun?


My money is on this one. The Magic Kingdom is a place where casters are summoned from, or return to. It's outside the side - it's outside the game. Effectively a caster in the MK is *not in play*. Therefore magics employed in the MK do not affect the outside world.

Hence Ossamer turns, Ansom turns, Sylvia turns. And the decrypted units will either croak or turn.

Strange update really. Wanda was very stupid. Surely she would know that the decrypted must stay in the same proximity (same hex?) as her. Even Gillian was trying to get Ansom out of range for him to turn.

I doubt this is true, again from a narrative perspective, (although the point about thinkamancers and the fact that Charlie can use his arkendishen powers(or charlie is the arkendish :D) in all but the temple of the Kingdom are good arguments too) but the whole thing about Ossomers loyalty being much weaker than others and how he's been plagued by doubts has been built up for a while. If none of that is true and just every decrypted has turned it would lose all it's meaning and impact, and thus disappoint us by robbing us of a conclusion we thought we were going to have.

Also the way the page displayed was OMG it's OSSOMER! which is difference (and misleading/unsatifying) if it's actually everyone. It's also cuts short Ansoms arc and would ultimately feel too much like a Deus Ex Machina that turns the tide of the war because Rob couldn't think of how to do it else (GK would lose almost all their army). On the other hand, that would set up a pretty epic conflict for Parson to solve, so it's the weakest of my arguments
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby atalex » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:57 pm

I don't think it's just proximity at work here. We'll probably see in the next update, but I'll be very surprised if any other GK Decrypted turn. I think Ossomer is just in a unique position: (1) a high level unit, (2) who's been treated like crap by his "mistress" and then abandoned completely, (3) who's been subjected to repeated attempts at turning by first Tremennis and then Slately, (4) who just lost the in-hex bonus provided by Wanda and the pliers, which I assume significantly added to attempts to resist turning, and (5) who just experienced his "mistress" apparently fleeing the scene, which, based on his past actions, he would undoubtedly view as further evidence that GK is "dishonorable." I think all of these factors together basically gave him, for lack of a better term, a new "saving throw vs. mind control."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 73

Postby arin » Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:58 pm

atalex wrote:I don't think it's just proximity at work here. We'll probably see in the next update, but I'll be very surprised if any other GK Decrypted turn. I think Ossomer is just in a unique position: (1) a high level unit, (2) who's been treated like crap by his "mistress" and then abandoned completely, (3) who's been subjected to repeated attempts at turning by first Tremennis and then Slately, (4) who just lost the in-hex bonus provided by Wanda and the pliers, which I assume significantly added to attempts to resist turning, and (5) who just experienced his "mistress" apparently fleeing the scene, which, based on his past actions, he would undoubtedly view as further evidence that GK is "dishonorable." I think all of these factors together basically gave him, for lack of a better term, a new "saving throw vs. mind control."


Six - Parson's intentions aside, Jack and Wanda just officially became the first units in Erfworld history to make use of an enemy-controlled portal (albeit to withdraw rather than invade, but still).

It's also worth mentioning, although it's probably just an art oversight, that we don't actually SEE the Arkenpliers on Wanda at all on this page. Are we sure they made the trip with her?
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