Book 2 – Text Updates 054

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby zuche » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:13 pm

atalex wrote:Whadya think, sirs?


Nice image, whether the story will go that way or no.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby Raza » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:18 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:Guess it depends on what ace rolls in his fall. but even if he lives getting away might be tricky.

Ooh, or he might be captured and kept alive for future decryption/conversion, but use his Hat Magic and unimposing appearance to escape. We know escape is possible within Erfworld's mechanics because Jillian lied about doing it, but we've never gotten to watch it happen.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby Metis » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:42 pm

I just wanted to make the quick comment that a link up between a Hat Magician and a Thinkamancer could produce a very useful tool or two in a battle with Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:52 pm

zuche wrote:Even so, that one image of Cubbins is magnificent. No one should have to face the decision he did. That makes his choice more noble. We can argue about its tactical merit all day, but that is not the only value system by which this act should be judged. It might not even be the most important one.


I agree. I don't seek to find a tactical justification for it, because I believe there isn't one. No, Cubbins made a decision from the heart, so to speak.

teratorn wrote:Firing the tower and waiting while Ossomer was with the archons will be a bit more suicidal. Once the tower was depleted Ossomer could stack will all the surviving archons. I was under the impression that Slately was going for a scenario involving the flight of unipegataurs immediately after air defenses were fired. That way archons migh not have the time to restack with Ossomer and he could dispatch a few of them, and even have a few casters managing to flee the city, before Ossomer would take over and kill every Jetstone unit still in the airspace. He simply didn't have the time to do that.


Not buying this. In that update in which Ace argues with Pierce, it is specifically mentioned that Ossomer could stack with the Archons at a moment's notice, whether he were attacked by AA defense or flying troops. So that in itself makes no difference. In fact, I am at a loss to see why firing the AA immediately as the plan to battle it out in the air was chosen as the course of action, or when Slately was introduced to the items to carry out said plan. It makes no sense to wait until Slately gets airborne, especially since there may not be a Tower to fire said defenses for much longer, and the fact that the Air Defenses will weaken the enemy somewhat is surely a bonus to troops that are to fight that enemy, one of those troops being Jetstone's King.

It's more likely that Jetstone missed its chance to use the AA defenses for any significant effect.

atalex wrote:I just had an idea that would be hilarious and awesome and therefore probably won't happen: Picture the next update from Cubbins' POV. {snipped, but awesome}


Ha-ha, I can see it now. "Cubbins was not afraid. In fact, he could barely even manage concern."

We need to start the Cubbins Is Not Dead Yo club, aka CINDY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby CaptC » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:42 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
zuche wrote:Even so, that one image of Cubbins is magnificent. No one should have to face the decision he did. That makes his choice more noble. We can argue about its tactical merit all day, but that is not the only value system by which this act should be judged. It might not even be the most important one.


I agree. I don't seek to find a tactical justification for it, because I believe there isn't one. No, Cubbins made a decision from the heart, so to speak.


Then barring information we don't have, it's a traitorous heart. Noble? Performing a tactically unjustifiable act, against orders? Only if you think Benedict Arnold deserved praise. Dying pointlessly is not heroic, not worthy of praise. It's just... pointless.

But I'll hang through my annoyance, I expect Rob will redeem Cubbins somehow.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby Guppy » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:44 pm

Cruiser1 wrote:Meanwhile, Parson and Wanda (if they actually enter/return to Jetstone) may finally get a chance to determine if a decrypted caster can still cast!


If Cubbins gets decrypted, count on Ace making it his life's mission to bring him back (à la Ossomer).


kefkakrazy wrote:To whoever suggested a Unipegataur might be able to carry Cubbins and an archer because of his small size:

I doubt it strongly. Sure, it makes sense from our perspective, but remember, Erfworld's "physics" are actually applied game rules.


Erfworld may very well have a "petite/dwarf" unit size (Marbits and Gobwins would be in it). I doubt Cubbins would count for it though.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby Kreistor » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:55 pm

Guppy wrote:Erfworld may very well have a "petite/dwarf" unit size (Marbits and Gobwins would be in it). I doubt Cubbins would count for it though.


The closest that we know of is the "Light" type. The opposite is the "Heavy" type, and there is a type in between that has no type. Light units can enter Tunnels.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby zuche » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:55 pm

CaptC wrote:Then barring information we don't have, it's a traitorous heart.


If you're telling me that Cubbins life is not ultimately his own, I'll tell you that's a repugnant view.

CaptC wrote:Noble?


Yes, giving your life so that two others might possibly survive is noble. Whether you think those lives are worth anything doesn't factor into the equation.

CaptC wrote:Performing a tactically unjustifiable act, against orders?


There was no express order for Cubbins specifically to mount up, nor one against getting others to a mount.

CaptC wrote:Only if you think Benedict Arnold deserved praise.


Speaking as a Canadian with United Empire Loyalists in my family tree, I believe you meant to write George Washington's name there instead. It would have been a better fit, since you seem to think Cubbins was also going against the interests or will of his king.

I've got no beef with Mr. Washington, mind. The man did what he thought was right, which is where he has a lot in common with Cubbins. Now Ace, there's a closer comparison to Mr. Arnold, another guy who bristled under the raw deal he'd received.

CaptC wrote:Dying pointlessly is not heroic, not worthy of praise. It's just... pointless.


Dying so that others might live is not pointless. I shouldn't even have to point that out.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby MonteCristo » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:14 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
zuche wrote:Even so, that one image of Cubbins is magnificent. No one should have to face the decision he did. That makes his choice more noble. We can argue about its tactical merit all day, but that is not the only value system by which this act should be judged. It might not even be the most important one.


I agree. I don't seek to find a tactical justification for it, because I believe there isn't one. No, Cubbins made a decision from the heart, so to speak.

I think the tactical justification is simple. Based on circumstances, those archers are more valuable to jetstone than himself.

Slately is flying into a desperate battle where the entire survival of the jetstone side. Cubbins, though an oh so valuable mancer, has no use in active combat. As such, even a common archer would be of more use in this most important battle than himself and thus more valuable to the future of side. That one extra archer may end up saving the life of one of the mancer or may even let fly the one extra arrow that will keep slately alive long enough to do what needs to be done; in contrast, cubbins has no hope of doing any of that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby coyotenose » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:08 pm

Oh God no. I feel ill.

Cubbins.

*looks at Pierce* This is like killing Radar.

RE: Orlies. We saw them perched inside the tower on an earlier page.

Goshen wrote:One thing I don't understand. Why did they let all those troops just stand there at the top of the tower only to die as it collapses? Could Slatley at least have sent them downstairs to fight?


I reckon the feeling is that the archers would just become Decrypted. Better to have them crushed in the tower and perhaps be unreachable (gyah, I can't believe I wrote that.) Of course, Wanda seemed to have no trouble digging up corpses to Decrypt after the volcano, but Slately doesn't know that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby Kreistor » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:16 pm

coyotenose wrote:Of course, Wanda seemed to have no trouble digging up corpses to Decrypt after the volcano, but Slately doesn't know that.


Had nothing to do with the nearby Dirtamancer.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby Goshen » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:01 pm

coyotenose wrote:Oh God no. I feel ill.

Cubbins.

*looks at Pierce* This is like killing Radar.

RE: Orlies. We saw them perched inside the tower on an earlier page.

Goshen wrote:One thing I don't understand. Why did they let all those troops just stand there at the top of the tower only to die as it collapses? Could Slatley at least have sent them downstairs to fight?


I reckon the feeling is that the archers would just become Decrypted. Better to have them crushed in the tower and perhaps be unreachable (gyah, I can't believe I wrote that.) Of course, Wanda seemed to have no trouble digging up corpses to Decrypt after the volcano, but Slately doesn't know that.


Perhaps. But it seems to me those troops could have offed those dwagons attacking the tower. Apologies if this was answered in an earlier thread. I'm surprised I didn't think of this until now.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby Dr Pepper » Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:06 am

Zeku wrote:I always felt like I missed something here. Every time I heard "Cubbins," I just thought, who? In this update I thought maybe it was a cloth golem. I see now its the guy who looks like a girl. He's in all the pictures, but I never realized he was a named character.

Easy come, easy go I guess.


He wears a cub scout uniform and he's named after a Dr. Seuss character. In "The 500 Hats of Bartholemew Cubbins", Bart the page gets into trouble because he can't take off his hat for the king-- there's always another underneath. Until the 500th, that is. So it's a good name for a hatamancer. Of course he might also have a minor in stickymancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:03 am

Goshen wrote:Perhaps. But it seems to me those troops could have offed those dwagons attacking the tower. Apologies if this was answered in an earlier thread. I'm surprised I didn't think of this until now.

Trem already figured out that if he sends anything against the coartyard that doesn't wipe it out completely, Wanda will just decrypt those forces, so they won't send in anything but overwhelming odds. They don't know that Wanda's not there right now, especially considering that even if they don't see her, Jack may just be hiding them.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby coyotenose » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:12 am

Kreistor wrote:
coyotenose wrote:Of course, Wanda seemed to have no trouble digging up corpses to Decrypt after the volcano, but Slately doesn't know that.


Had nothing to do with the nearby Dirtamancer.



- It's out of character for Sizemore to do something like that unless ordered.
- Sizemore was gathering gems at the time.
- Sizemore was not shown as present while Wanda was working.

While some corpses are depicted as above ground, the sheer number of units Decrypted just in the time Parson and Ansom spend talking so far exceeds what we see just lying around their feet that we have to expect that some are either digging their way up or being "reassembled" above ground once the Arkenpliers locate them.

Without a different view of the battlefield and a clear listing of how many units' corpses survived the volcano well enough to be Decrypted, I admit it's just speculation as to whether the Arkenpliers facilitate physically "raising" the dead in addition to mystically raising them. But given the trope of how easily the undead dig out of their graves when reanimated, and how well it fits with "gameplay", I consider it likely.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby Sieggy » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:16 am

So you send them out the back door, out of the Atrium, out of the city (which is likely to fall) so that they're not uselessly wasted. And regarding the concepts of loyalty and duty and self consciousness and free will going on in the other thread, stop to consider that these poor dolts have been standing there in formation while the building they're standing in is literally being demolished beneath their very feet. No panic, no mass rush for the stairways leading to safety, no loyalty throws, not even a hint of a desire for self preservation. Hell, even sheep have enough sense to run.

They're all going to die simply because their King doesn't give a Twollfart about them - they're expendable units, and who cares about them? I guess Slately simply thinks of them as just mouths to feed and that their deaths will relieve him of a financial burden? If they die, they may wind up decrypted. If he got them the hell out of the city, they might live to fight another day. It's one thing to die in battle - City of Heroes and all that. But to die because your King couldn't be bothered to take your survival into consideration? Welcome to the City of Nebbishes . . .
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby coyotenose » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:18 am

Goshen wrote:Perhaps. But it seems to me those troops could have offed those dwagons attacking the tower. Apologies if this was answered in an earlier thread. I'm surprised I didn't think of this until now.



Scroll back to the aerial assault on the dwagons. They took a LOT of arrow hits. On the ground, with the dwagons able to reach them, the archers would have been mulched.

Y'know, the more I look at it, the more it sinks in just how bad a job Jetstone did of setting up to repel dwagons, owing to their presumption of superiority. What the hell guys? It was like you brought stakes and holy water to a werewolf fight, and just counted on suffocating the werewolves beneath your piled-on corpses.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby coyotenose » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:30 am

Sieggy wrote:So you send them out the back door, out of the Atrium, out of the city (which is likely to fall) so that they're not uselessly wasted. And regarding the concepts of loyalty and duty and self consciousness and free will going on in the other thread, stop to consider that these poor dolts have been standing there in formation while the building they're standing in is literally being demolished beneath their very feet. No panic, no mass rush for the stairways leading to safety, no loyalty throws, not even a hint of a desire for self preservation. Hell, even sheep have enough sense to run.

They're all going to die simply because their King doesn't give a Twollfart about them - they're expendable units, and who cares about them? I guess Slately simply thinks of them as just mouths to feed and that their deaths will relieve him of a financial burden? If they die, they may wind up decrypted. If he got them the hell out of the city, they might live to fight another day. It's one thing to die in battle - City of Heroes and all that. But to die because your King couldn't be bothered to take your survival into consideration? Welcome to the City of Nebbishes . . .



Sheep run even when there is no sense to it. Check the various images inside the tower. The archers are terrified, but even they know they have nowhere to go. They have virtually no arrows left, and the enemy are all highly skilled at melee combat. Antium by himself could probably croak them all. I don't recall seeing any way they could get out (could be mistaken about that) without passing the GK siege or going close enough to the dungeons that they could assume the Decrypted would get them.

Slately was working under the assumption that he would die no matter what up until the point that it was too late to order the archers out, anyway. By the time he was geared for personal aerial combat, the opportunity to get out of the city by beating feet was long past. Consider that he never thought about getting out on foot himself even when facing the archons was certain failure and death.

I won't defend Slately's decision-making process, which was self-involved and careless about the lives of his units (look at how he thought of his heirs past and present, after all), but there were valid reasons to have the tower archers stand and die.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby CaptC » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:44 am

zuche wrote:
CaptC wrote:Then barring information we don't have, it's a traitorous heart.


If you're telling me that Cubbins life is not ultimately his own, I'll tell you that's a repugnant view.

CaptC wrote:Noble?


Yes, giving your life so that two others might possibly survive is noble. Whether you think those lives are worth anything doesn't factor into the equation.


Well, I'm not going to get into a point by point moral quibble, lest I contribute to the reason I don't read this forum after today (until the next update.) But I will say this: Our difference of opinion is based strictly on world view. Cubbins might be an endearing character and his own man to you, but to me, ultimately, he's a video game character.

If Erfworld actually comes out as a playable game, and the units behave as Cubbins does, I shan't play it. There is NOTHING more frustrating and un-enjoyable in a strategy/tactical game than units doing stuff "because they know better." If I tell Cubbins to get on a unipegataur, he darn well better get on that unipegataur. Or I'll throw the game into the trash and never play again.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 054

Postby sleepymancer » Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:43 am

CaptC wrote:Well, I'm not going to get into a point by point moral quibble, lest I contribute to the reason I don't read this forum after today (until the next update.) But I will say this: Our difference of opinion is based strictly on world view. Cubbins might be an endearing character and his own man to you, but to me, ultimately, he's a video game character.

If Erfworld actually comes out as a playable game, and the units behave as Cubbins does, I shan't play it. There is NOTHING more frustrating and un-enjoyable in a strategy/tactical game than units doing stuff "because they know better." If I tell Cubbins to get on a unipegataur, he darn well better get on that unipegataur. Or I'll throw the game into the trash and never play again.


um... well, you aren't going to read the reply to this, but I feel compelled to reply anyway.

Erfworld. is. a. STORY. not. a. game.

The setting is gamelike, however. I thought the difference was obvious!

If that's really the kind of story you want, then may i suggest a different comic? Tycho proposed a game-based story that might be more to your taste: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/04/27
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