Book 2 – Page 74

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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Ditto » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:48 am

Without Wanda's/the pliers' smothering influence holding the decrypted as decrypted, I think any sufficiently motivated unit could turn. The archons are definitely motivated, but their love was more like an addiction. Ossomer's was more personal, and he was sitting RIGHT in front of his King and feeling bad and getting chewed out about it. If Charlie showed up in the city right now and said 'Archons, to me!', I think they might turn too.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Swodaems » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:52 am

Does anyone else think Sylvia or Parson might set fire to what remains of the garrison? Assuming the King safely gets to ground, his first order of business after that would be to take the vast army still in the city and try to use it against GK. Depending on how that fight goes, the best move for GK may be to destroy what remains of the garrison building, thereby conquering it and the city, with the side effect of shackles popping on all remaining Jetstone units in the city. It is a tactic we've seen work before when Ceaser conquered Chocula. Using the purples to seige the building would be a impractically time consuming option as the tower proved. The purples would have to be defended for the entire time from attacks that could come from any opening the inner walls have on the courtyard. And since I wouldn't be willing to trust any of the former Jetstone units not to turn back to Jetstone at any moment, that defense seems doomed from the start. But with fire, a whole new array of options opens up: Choking up entry points with walls of flame, managing the fire's growth so it collapses the inner walls all at once, cutting off means of retreat for certain troops, etc. Another advantage of firesetting is that the reds would only have to be protected for as long as it took to start the fire. After it's started, the fire will do the heavy work itself.

We don't know how fire works in Erfworld. Sylvia could be perfectly safe from the flames in the middle of the courtyard provided she is careful to stay where nothing can collapse on her. If decrypted don't need to breathe, then she and the other GK units wouldn't even need to worry about suffocation.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:55 am

Jorgath wrote:It would seem to. Back in Ye Olde Days of the Dragon Donut, Ansom was riding that thing all over the place. And I doubt he has as much personal Move as he used gallivanting around with Vinny and Jillian. Vinny...actually, there's an idea. I bet you that the carpet doesn't count as a mount; rather, as an item it gives a unit both the flying special and extra Move while he's on it, making him comparable to a Transylvitan Warlord (minus the bats).


Actually, most of the time, Ansom stays with his infantry. We also don't know Vinnie's Move. We know dwagons and Gwiffons can get into the 50's, but we just don't know the Move on ground units. The one time Ansom really uses Move is against the wounded dwagons, moving to the weak spot of the circle, which was within foot archer range, and then off to the nearby lake, but as the crow flies which is much less than Jillian moved hunting them down.

But look at Vinnie at the Trap (Book 1, Page 62). After figuring out the trap, Vinnie gave two options. To get back to their lines, he needed to go through the trap, meaning he didn't have enough to go around. The walking archers didn't have enough Move to get back with him. That means that Ansom didn't have much more than the archers... at best double.

But on Page 56, you can see the trap itself, and the RCC lines. Ansom is 4 Move from the lines by hitting the strongest hex of the trap. He is 6 Move from the lines by going around. The Archers can't get there, so he has at best 5 Move more than them. That can be accounted for merely by starting position in the column (ie. Archers 5 hexes behind him at Turn start), but I expect Archers were at the front of the column with him to protect against Dwagon attacks against the head of the column, so I think his Move is a little higher. That could simply be because he is Level 10. We don't know if Level increases Move or not.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby happyturtle » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:58 am

My pet predictamancy is that Parson makes it through the portal, GK takes the city, but Jetstone's ruler escapes to continue the side. Parson gets to be a front line Chief Warlord for a while since he can't go back through the Magic Kingdom and there aren't enough dwagons for relaying him back to the city.

Even better: Parson gets captured by Jetstone and turned. It might not be that difficult to do - he's a Player, after all. He's used to playing on different sides in different games. He may have a very low Loyalty score.

@ Ditto: Knowing that decrypted units can be turned back will definitely change Charlie's calculations. Though it's hard to guess whether he actually cares for his Archons in any way other than resources. They seem addicted to him like the decrypted are to Wanda. Same mechanism, perhaps?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:36 pm

happyturtle wrote:there aren't enough dwagons for relaying [Parson] back to the city.


Parson can't ride dwagons, since he counts as a HEavy unit.

Parson gets captured by Jetstone and turned.


Parson is still subject to the Summoning spell. He may disband when Turned.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby effataigus » Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:22 pm

I'm curious if the turn mechanics, the city zone mechanics, and the movement mechanics are going to team up to be very cruel to GK (again) momentarily. We know that Slately and Co. can attack across zone boundaries. We know GK cannot. We know GK cannot cross zone boundaries. I suspect Dwagons cannot go downstairs (or possibly even inside). If (when IMO) JS wins the air battle, those two archers might be able to just sit up there with Ossomer's bonus and dust the strike force with impunity till the end of turn (or till they run out of arrows (again?)).

Parson's only course of action would then be to try to wipe out the garrison units as quickly as possible (which should capture the city and all units within (king possibly included, if he is too dumb to leave the hex... and he is)). This shouldn't be too hard with Antium, Wanda, and a couple of doods though... enemy dead conversion is still crazy-good.

Hmm, but without Wanda? That could be a Parson sized challenge. Alternately, I still half expect Charlie to show up with a flight of archons before GK's next turn.

Whoops... in retrospect, too much equivocation and too many parenthetical statements makes a post hard to read.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:52 pm

effataigus wrote:I'm curious if the turn mechanics, the city zone mechanics, and the movement mechanics are going to team up to be very cruel to GK (again) momentarily. We know that Slately and Co. can attack across zone boundaries. We know GK cannot. We know GK cannot cross zone boundaries. I suspect Dwagons cannot go downstairs (or possibly even inside). If (when IMO) JS wins the air battle, those two archers might be able to just sit up there with Ossomer's bonus and dust the strike force with impunity till the end of turn (or till they run out of arrows (again?)).


Archers are limited by range and Line of Sight. They aren't uber-powerful.

Parson's only course of action would then be to try to wipe out the garrison units as quickly as possible (which should capture the city and all units within (king possibly included, if he is too dumb to leave the hex... and he is)). This shouldn't be too hard with Antium, Wanda, and a couple of doods though... enemy dead conversion is still crazy-good.


Accurate analysis. Ending Jetstone Turn doesn't prevent this, either.

Hmm, but without Wanda? That could be a Parson sized challenge. Alternately, I still half expect Charlie to show up with a flight of archons before GK's next turn.


Wanda knows the convention, but entered MK anyway. That indicates she's willing to break the convention to get back. She'll walk back into Spacerock. I doubt Jack will, since he has burned a lot of juice, and really isn't necessary anymore. He'll probably head for GK with Sizemore.

Whoops... in retrospect, too much equivocation and too many parenthetical statements makes a post hard to read.


nah, you're fine.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby drachefly » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:23 pm

Kreistor wrote:But on Page 56, you can see the trap itself, and the RCC lines. Ansom is 4 Move from the lines by hitting the strongest hex of the trap. He is 6 Move from the lines by going around.


What's keeping them from bringing a bunch of the column closer? They're going caravan-style, so it's overwhelmingly likely they have a large number of units with move to spare after their daily progress. He really just needs to move 2 times if he goes through.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby joosy » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:14 pm

drachefly wrote:
Kreistor wrote:But on Page 56, you can see the trap itself, and the RCC lines. Ansom is 4 Move from the lines by hitting the strongest hex of the trap. He is 6 Move from the lines by going around.


What's keeping them from bringing a bunch of the column closer? They're going caravan-style, so it's overwhelmingly likely they have a large number of units with move to spare after their daily progress. He really just needs to move 2 times if he goes through.


I believe they needed forest capable units to attack, otherwise they will just be able to defend themselves.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:33 pm

joosy wrote:
drachefly wrote:
Kreistor wrote:But on Page 56, you can see the trap itself, and the RCC lines. Ansom is 4 Move from the lines by hitting the strongest hex of the trap. He is 6 Move from the lines by going around.


What's keeping them from bringing a bunch of the column closer? They're going caravan-style, so it's overwhelmingly likely they have a large number of units with move to spare after their daily progress. He really just needs to move 2 times if he goes through.


I believe they needed forest capable units to attack, otherwise they will just be able to defend themselves.


It's not stated. drach.

Since we're not worried about attack, that they can only defend is fine, joosy.

So, since he didn't consider the possibility, there are a few options:

1) All RCC units finished move while Ansom was dealing with the trap. This is the most likely possibility.

2) Since they could just get to the lines, it wouldn't matter. Archers only barely got to the trap by going the long way, so other units might make it, if they started in that direction.

3) Non-forest units have Move penalties in Forest. (This might be stated in the text, actually, but I'm not going looking for it.)

4) Siege probably has lowest Move, and by moving defenses to help archers, you'd be abandoning them to the same dwagon tactic Parson already used once. (note, this decision is being made before Jillian starts looking for the dwagons.)

We know it's not:

a) Can't get orders to the column. He can do that via Charlie, or Bunny as a last resort.

b) Jillian can't get her fliers there. Jillian and the fliers barely take out the wounded dwagon stack. With all the dwagons united, and fully healed, they'd curbstomp Ansom and co.

Ironically, we know that he could have:

x) Had Jilllian offload all of her gwiffons and brought them to the hex, mounted all units, and moved them to the column that way. Gwiffons have ~50 Move and could make several runs, if there's a numbers problem. Will lose the treants, since they're heavy (IIRC) but that's a much lower loss rate.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby teratorn » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:25 pm

Kreistor wrote:Archers are limited by range and Line of Sight. They aren't uber-powerful.


They can fly just above the unit they are about to shoot without fears of any sort. As long they are in the airspace units on the ground without the archery special can't do a thing except run and hide and dwagons have no such option.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby effataigus » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:23 am

teratorn wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Archers are limited by range and Line of Sight. They aren't uber-powerful.


They can fly just above the unit they are about to shoot without fears of any sort. As long they are in the airspace units on the ground without the archery special can't do a thing except run and hide and dwagons have no such option.


Not sure that they can fly just above the units they're attacking in this case. Examining the positioning of units during the Ossomer parley and just before the dwagon harvesting suggests that the GK column moved down to just above the (shattered by that point) roof of the atrium before the harvest. Since Parson admits that height seems to have some bearing on fall damage, it seems likely that GK moved as low as they could before the harvest. This suggests to me that the (former) roof is as low as they could go and still be in the "airspace" zone... though I wouldn't bet much on it.

However, we do have reason to believe that well-led archers are a little bit ubar: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -01-22.png

It doesn't say that they could take out a dwagon with every arrow, of course, but...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:24 am

teratorn wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Archers are limited by range and Line of Sight. They aren't uber-powerful.


They can fly just above the unit they are about to shoot without fears of any sort. As long they are in the airspace units on the ground without the archery special can't do a thing except run and hide and dwagons have no such option.


Hahah... no, they can't. Yellow dwagons could hit ground because they didn't fire, they dropped a load. Red and Purple dwagons couldn't breathe onto the Atrium Roof.

For purposes of assault, Airspace connects to Tower. You can't fire down onto courtyard. Drop things, yes. Shoot, no. Same impossible principle as the breath weapons.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby happyturtle » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:22 am

Huh? Of course Jetstone can fire into the Atrium. They've been doing it all turn. First of all, because it's their turn, and secondly because it's their city. See here.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:48 am

happyturtle wrote:Huh? Of course Jetstone can fire into the Atrium. They've been doing it all turn. First of all, because it's their turn, and secondly because it's their city. See here.


Tower is Garrison, and so can hit other Garrison. It can also hit Airspace, so there's no zone violation.

Airspace is an entirely different Zone. It takes move for attackers to go from Airspace to Tower, but they can't Land in Courtyard at all. Airspace can only attack Tower, and that's all there is to it. Courtyard can only be attacked from the Outer Walls zone, not the Airspace Zone.

I know it makes no physical sense in Earth terms. Erfworld has Hex Walls which tells you we're not in Kansas.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Saladman » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:55 am

joosy wrote:I believe they needed forest capable units to attack, otherwise they will just be able to defend themselves.


My impression all along has been you need fliers or forest-capable units to move through forest at all, and "can't be attacked by..." is just a function of that. Now I look back for a citation it's not spelled out, but it's strongly implied by the fact they didn't call for reinforcements from the column, as well as Ford being a forest-capable warlord being such a notable fact.

From klog #6/page 46a:
All units advance to heavy trees near middle of column. Need 7 hexes of forest together to work.


If forest and "heavy trees" are synonyms, it's possible Forest is a specific terrain type, and trees alone or even open woods don't rise to that level.


Kreistor wrote:But look at Vinnie at the Trap (Book 1, Page 62). After figuring out the trap, Vinnie gave two options. To get back to their lines, he needed to go through the trap, meaning he didn't have enough to go around. The walking archers didn't have enough Move to get back with him. That means that Ansom didn't have much more than the archers... at best double.

But on Page 56, you can see the trap itself, and the RCC lines. Ansom is 4 Move from the lines by hitting the strongest hex of the trap. He is 6 Move from the lines by going around. The Archers can't get there, so he has at best 5 Move more than them. That can be accounted for merely by starting position in the column (ie. Archers 5 hexes behind him at Turn start), but I expect Archers were at the front of the column with him to protect against Dwagon attacks against the head of the column, so I think his Move is a little higher. That could simply be because he is Level 10. We don't know if Level increases Move or not.


Hexes may not equal moves, they might have variable move costs increasing for heavy terrain. Though I expected to find support for that and didn't in a quick pass, so that may be an incorrect impression of mine.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby sleepymancer » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:32 am

Saladman wrote:From klog #6/page 46a:
All units advance to heavy trees near middle of column. Need 7 hexes of forest together to work.


If forest and "heavy trees" are synonyms, it's possible Forest is a specific terrain type, and trees alone or even open woods don't rise to that level.


In the earth-definition of 'Forest' it would definitely be a terrain type, but the amount of trees would be irrelevant. I have often stood in the middle of the forest while the nearest tree was well over half a mile away. The definition of forest is mostly tautological: forest is land that is declared to be forest. Maybe the same is true of erf, or at least something similar. A hex is 'declared' (by whom I cannot say, being not a theophysicist) forest, and may have heavy moderate, light or, perhaps even, no trees on it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby M.A.D » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:46 am

Steve-D wrote:
drachefly wrote:
Steve-D wrote:That's one hell of a cliff hanger. Please tell me we don't have to wait until the spring for book 3.


This isn't, so far as I know, the end of book 2. It's the end of issue 2 of book 2.


Oh few. I missed the ending of issue 1. :P


http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -05-24.jpg

Random post lol
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby happyturtle » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:02 am

Saladman wrote:Hexes may not equal moves, they might have variable move costs increasing for heavy terrain. Though I expected to find support for that and didn't in a quick pass, so that may be an incorrect impression of mine.


Here ya go.

Summer Update wrote:"Okay, hang on," said Parson, still looking at the bracer. "If you figure valley move is one, mountain move is two, and high mountain move is three, then there are at least...six or seven hundred mountain hexes you could reach and come back to the city in one turn. Odds say there are three feral dwagons out there right now, that you could tame and bring back to the city in one turn's move."

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby effataigus » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:42 am

Kreistor wrote:
happyturtle wrote:Huh? Of course Jetstone can fire into the Atrium. They've been doing it all turn. First of all, because it's their turn, and secondly because it's their city. See here.


Tower is Garrison, and so can hit other Garrison. It can also hit Airspace, so there's no zone violation.

Airspace is an entirely different Zone. It takes move for attackers to go from Airspace to Tower, but they can't Land in Courtyard at all. Airspace can only attack Tower, and that's all there is to it. Courtyard can only be attacked from the Outer Walls zone, not the Airspace Zone.


Happy is correct here. Courtyard/Tower/Dungeons are all one zone. Airspace is a separate zone. City Walls compose another zone. Tunnels would be a final zone, but there are none here. Jetstone is on turn and therefore can attack across zone boundaries (as they have been... e.g. tower to airspace). GK is off turn and therefore cannot attack or move across zone boundaries (except when forced to by gravity).

Recall that it doesn't matter who is attacking and defending (or whether they are doing an action, using your words from several posts before, for the purposes of assault)... it only matters who is on turn. Not Kansas indeed.

Also, post 500! Seems as good a place as any to take a good long break from posting. Much love, fellow forumites! Time to revert to lurker for a month or two. Ta! :)
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