Book 2 – Page 74

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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Sharik » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:48 pm

I hate to be the first one to be a stick in the mud on this point, but I found this page to be rather disjointed and difficult to read.... the center panel is so dominant that I kept placing it chronologically in front of the Cubbins panels... and frankly, before the archon panels as well. It just sucks you down into the middle, and then visual overload... Don't get me wrong, the art is great, but I can't stand the composition.

On another point, for those of you talking about "pop a cap", here is my two cents:

Popcap is the company that made Plants Vs. Zombies. Plants Vs. Zombies is a tower defense game, wherein you attempt to fend off the undead.

Cubbins is using the tower defenses to fend off the decrypted.

Connection? I think so...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby gameboy1234 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:35 pm

"Cap" is another word for a hat.

"Pop a cap" is slang for shooting someone.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:52 pm

Atomic wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Okay, so what did we learn?
Waaaaaait... are you serious? I thought it was sarcasm at first but, by the end of the post, I realized it wasn't. I then cried all of the tears.


Done this before. Sorry you missed it. Rob puts Rules in some of the pages. In the Summer Updates, he revealed 1-3 Rules on all but one page. So, yeah, it's worth taking the time to puzzle out the Rules he demonstrates to us. I used to put them in the Wiki, actually.

There was no indication that anyone besides Ossomer turned.


No indication either way makes it is no less noteworthy that they didn't vs. if they did. The difference with the troops in the dungeon is that, like Ossomer, they were former Jetstone and like him lost Wanda's bonus. We don't know the mechanic that let Ossomer Turn yet (since the dominance effect was presumed to be from Croakamancy which was absolute and not Thinkamancy which was not, until Ossomer Turned), so there's still more we need to learn. In this case, one could speculate that with Wanda's bonus gone, perhaps Tramennis' bonus replaced it and this gave him the power to Turn. If true, then the same happens to all former Jetstone units in the Tunnels. Right now, the troops in the dungeon are Shrodinger's Cat... both Turned and unTurned. Totally appropriate for beings that are Decrypted -- both Dead and Alive.

The important part is that Wanda leaving didn't automatically Turn everyone. Some have suggested that the MK is on its own Plane. This is the first time Wanda has returned to the MK since she gained the Pliers. If that were true and her effect ended for being out-of-plane, all would have Turned simultaneously. We know from the Suggestion description that range is not a factor in its operation, and Wanda has been in the MK when she had Suggestion operating on Jillian, so that doesn't even explain why suddenly jumping to the MK Turned Ossomer. (Even more true since Jillian never benefited from the Crokamancer bonus in the first place.) And if it is a Suggestion variant, we'll see Wanda's mind get hurt again, since Ossomer seems to have no sign of mental damage.

Contrary to popular belief, a good writer doesn't need to lie to his (or her) audience to achieve a good story.


Awfully sure of yourself. Wonder what you founded that absolute conviction on?

Summer Update 35 wrote:Stanley said nothing. He was thinking about it. Parson pressed his case. "See what I mean? They locate the dwagons for you. Scouts go first, so there's no chance of ambush. Not even a veiled one, 'cause they're Archons. And it would be good for security to have the area around the capital well scouted anyway."


Not the text, it seems. "No chance" means Archons automatically see through Foolamancy, plus since he doesn't specifically state that they would be limited to scouting with Archons that have Foolamancy, it does indicate it's a Natural Ability for all Archons. They probably call it "Spell Security". Just a guess.

Lemme break it down: Ossomer turned last comic-strip-page. It isn't Foolamancy. Archons don't automatically see through Foolamancy. Wanda and Jack really are in the Magic Kingdom.


Check my posts in Page 73 for the full version. Jack used Foolamancy once in that page and fooled Master Class Thinkamancers and Parson... he could have done it again, and we ALWAYS see the Veiled reality, not the Umveiled one. He could have faked Wanda entering the MK. And Fake Wanda's reaction may have been to a fake Turning. Rob DOES lie to us, every time Jack casts a Veil. We eventually learn the truth, but it can go multiple pages, like the first several of Book 2 where he hid Wanda and Jack from us behind a Veil, only revealing them when Ossomer saw the truth, too.

I'm sorry but geeeeeze.


Invitation to flame war rejected.

Kreistor wrote:4. Hat Magicians can produce live creatures (rabbits in the case, but may just be a visual issue and could produce anything).
4a. By "produce", it may be "store and remove" instead of "create from nothing".
I took Bun-bun/ the rest of the glowing things to be part of a spell. The Hat Magician used magic...and a hat. No live creatures (as far as we know).


There are lots of possibilities. But note that Hat Magicians are based on the concept of Stage Magicians, probably limited to the specific magic involving Hats. Cubbins created the materials for Ace to make his Accessories, so what Cubbins summons can be permanent. When a Stage Magician on Earth produces a Rabbit, it's permanent, too, unless he wants to make it disappear again. (Pigeons pulled from a hat are often released and not re-disappeared.) So, no, it is not necessarily true that the summons are short term: it's in the inspiration genre for the rabbits and pigeons to be permanent.

There's also the possibility that he had to catch them first, and they are (tied to)/(stored in) the Hat's dimension somehow.

The important new confirmed knowledge is that he can produce active attackers and magically animated items, not just raw material. The envelope has expanded. The detail of how long is something we will learn later.

When we have new partial knowledge, we still note it, because we may never be given more on the same subject. Do you have any idea how long it took us to get Rob to clarify the "off-turn" casting rules? YEARS. Rob gave us an absolute "No casting" statement in an early Klog, but we had off-turn casting happening all over the place, without explanation. So, yeah, if you think Rob doesn't lie about the Rules, too, then I'll just shove the Off-turn casting Rules at you, and demonstrate how those screwed us up.

I think I need to go weep in a corner for a bit. Uno momento.


Oooo... so dramatic.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby badninja » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:39 pm

Nice ending to part 2, now comes the grand finally! I am not willing to write off Cubbins just yet he may have a "exit stage left" ability/spell and survive but you never know. Superb way to end the issue Rob!
I came, I saw, I had fun!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Lamech » Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:00 pm

badninja wrote:Nice ending to part 2, now comes the grand finally! I am not willing to write off Cubbins just yet he may have a "exit stage left" ability/spell and survive but you never know. Superb way to end the issue Rob!

I'm sure he'll be fine. In fact, I think he'll get a new shiny bonus. And need to eat less. And some new colors too! He'll be better than fine.! :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Zeku » Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:36 pm

This is the first page that captures the feeling of the original Erfworld page layouts.

It's not flawless, but it does look a lot better than normal pages, and I'm looking forward to future un-boxing.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby CaptC » Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Just logging in to say, I'm glad I was wrong.

Good show, Cubbins.
I read the reactions forum for two days after an Erfworld post. Those two days rank with the best the internet offers: intelligent posters pointing out the fun stuff I missed. After that... well, let's just say the quality tends to degrade dramatically.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby kefkakrazy » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:54 pm

Not the text, it seems. "No chance" means Archons automatically see through Foolamancy, plus since he doesn't specifically state that they would be limited to scouting with Archons that have Foolamancy, it does indicate it's a Natural Ability for all Archons. They probably call it "Spell Security". Just a guess.



"No chance" does not necessarily mean automatic detection; it may just mean that Archons have a superior ability to detect Foolamancy compared to normal units. Some of what we've seen seems to indicate that only Warlords can "normally" detect a veiled unit, and that in the form of a hit-or-miss "spot check." Archons may have the same ability.

Also, some conversation in Book 1 between Caesar and Vinny seems to indicate that these spot checks are per capable unit, per veiled unit; two Warlords encountering two veiled dwagons roll twice each to see if one of them blows the veil and detects a dwagon.

Parson saying that there's "no chance" of an ambush can easily be taken to mean "any force powerful enough to assault an Overlord's stack of dwagons, with leadership and Arkenhammer artifact bonus, has effectively zero chance of remaining veiled when scouted by an Archon."


Not that I'm super heavily invested in the idea; it's just that I'm a bit skeptical that Archons are going to get the ability to effectively ignore an entire class of magic in addition to their own powerful combat and spellcasting abilities.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby drachefly » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:30 pm

I would co-sign the above post if there were such a function.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Atomic » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:39 pm

Swodaems wrote:Sorry to nitpick, but there is evidence saying that Archons can see thru foolamancy.
No need to be sorry, but you're kinda wrong... Archons can see through Foolamancy, but that doesn't mean that they always do see through Foolamancy.

Vinny states that the Transylvitian Warlords have a chance to see through each, individual, veil. 30 Dwagons x 11 Warlords = about 300 chances to spot the incoming units.
Jillian says that units can probably detect them. Those units are either a Foolamancer, an Archon, or a lucky/ smart Warlord.

...

Kreistor wrote:Done this before. Sorry you missed it. Rob puts Rules in some of the pages. In the Summer Updates, he revealed 1-3 Rules on all but one page. So, yeah, it's worth taking the time to puzzle out the Rules he demonstrates to us. I used to put them in the Wiki, actually.
Wait, done what before? Made sarcastic posts, threw out outlandish theories, or?

Kreistor wrote:No indication either way makes it is no less noteworthy that they didn't vs. if they did. The difference with the troops in the dungeon is that, like Ossomer, they were former Jetstone and like him lost Wanda's bonus. We don't know the mechanic that let Ossomer Turn yet (since the dominance effect was presumed to be from Croakamancy which was absolute and not Thinkamancy which was not, until Ossomer Turned), so there's still more we need to learn. In this case, one could speculate that with Wanda's bonus gone, perhaps Tramennis' bonus replaced it and this gave him the power to Turn. If true, then the same happens to all former Jetstone units in the Tunnels. Right now, the troops in the dungeon are Shrodinger's Cat... both Turned and unTurned. Totally appropriate for beings that are Decrypted -- both Dead and Alive.
No, you're skewing the inclination of the story to fit your theories. Whereas, it should be the other way around: your theories should fit to the outline the story has given us. In fact, no indication either way makes it all the more likely that nothing has changed. Just to pose a question here, since you seem to be challenging a lot of the basic ideas I'm setting forth... when did Rob tell us that it was the lack of Wanda's bonus that caused Ossomer to turn? When did Rob tell us that the Arkenplier bonus had any affect on Ossomer/ the rest of the Decrypted? (outside of attack/defense). I'm one to believe that there probably was/ is a bonus given from the pliers, but you seem so certain of it. Prove it.

Additionally, because there is still more to learn, why are we holding so fast to these ideas that the placement of Wanda had anything to do with it? Or that all of the formerly Jetstonian-soldiers would turn simply because Wanda was no longer present in the same plane/ whatever? Where's the basis for that? All the other Decrypted units we've seen have been perfectly content to serve Wanda in different hexes/ cities/ whatnots. What makes the battle of Jetstone so important that, when one disgruntled unit turns, there's a chance that all of Gobwin Knob's units have turned? By your Shrodinger's reasoning, Maggie is both dead/ alive (was there a backlash?!)... Ansom is both Turned/ unTurned (Did the Magic Kingdom short out the pliers?!)... and Charlie is both Tuna/ unTuna. That's ridiculous.

Kreistor wrote:The important part is that Wanda leaving didn't automatically Turn everyone. Some have suggested that the MK is on its own Plane. This is the first time Wanda has returned to the MK since she gained the Pliers. If that were true and her effect ended for being out-of-plane, all would have Turned simultaneously. We know from the Suggestion description that range is not a factor in its operation, and Wanda has been in the MK when she had Suggestion operating on Jillian, so that doesn't even explain why suddenly jumping to the MK Turned Ossomer. (Even more true since Jillian never benefited from the Crokamancer bonus in the first place.) And if it is a Suggestion variant, we'll see Wanda's mind get hurt again, since Ossomer seems to have no sign of mental damage.
I don't really get what you're going for in this paragraph, though. Are you saying that the Magic Kingdom IS shorting the pliers out, or that it isn't? 'cause I'm pretty sure things like that can't be selective. The Archons are still with Gobwin Knob, and they (out of nearly all the characters we've seen Decrypted) have the strongest remaining connection to their former side. If it were a drop in Loyalty caused by the 'pliers, my money would be on those Archons turning before Ossomer.

Kreistor wrote:Awfully sure of yourself. Wonder what you founded that absolute conviction on?
An English major with an emphasis in creative writing... so yes. I trust that, of the multiple doctorate-level professors I've talked to, they probably know best.

Kreistor wrote:...merp...
See top of my post about Archons/ veils (as well as kefkakrazy's post on the matter).

Kreistor wrote:Check my posts in Page 73 for the full version. Jack used Foolamancy once in that page and fooled Master Class Thinkamancers and Parson... he could have done it again, and we ALWAYS see the Veiled reality, not the Umveiled one. He could have faked Wanda entering the MK. And Fake Wanda's reaction may have been to a fake Turning. Rob DOES lie to us, every time Jack casts a Veil. We eventually learn the truth, but it can go multiple pages, like the first several of Book 2 where he hid Wanda and Jack from us behind a Veil, only revealing them when Ossomer saw the truth, too.
So, by that reasoning, there's an equal chance that all of Book 2 is a lie? What if this entire book is only Jack showing Parson the potential trouble that could arise...simply from not joining the forces in the field? I'm not gonna bother with searching through page 73, 'cause it adds nothing to the story to have a fake Wanda feel a fake turning in an illusion that, if anything, would make the situation in the Magic Kingdom even MORE aggravated/ volatile for Parson. Rob lies to us, correct. But every time Jack has cast an illusion, hasn't it been to fool/trick an enemy? What good would an illusion in the Magic Kingdom do?

Kreistor wrote:Invitation to flame war rejected.
Didn't mean to invite you to a flame war... I was just flabbergasted. If I thought any of this honestly mattered, we could just both plops ours down on the table and break out a ruler.

Kreistor wrote:There are lots of possibilities. But note that Hat Magicians are based on the concept of Stage Magicians, probably limited to the specific magic involving Hats. Cubbins created the materials for Ace to make his Accessories, so what Cubbins summons can be permanent. When a Stage Magician on Earth produces a Rabbit, it's permanent, too, unless he wants to make it disappear again. (Pigeons pulled from a hat are often released and not re-disappeared.) So, no, it is not necessarily true that the summons are short term: it's in the inspiration genre for the rabbits and pigeons to be permanent.

There's also the possibility that he had to catch them first, and they are (tied to)/(stored in) the Hat's dimension somehow.

The important new confirmed knowledge is that he can produce active attackers and magically animated items, not just raw material. The envelope has expanded. The detail of how long is something we will learn later.

When we have new partial knowledge, we still note it, because we may never be given more on the same subject. Do you have any idea how long it took us to get Rob to clarify the "off-turn" casting rules? YEARS. Rob gave us an absolute "No casting" statement in an early Klog, but we had off-turn casting happening all over the place, without explanation. So, yeah, if you think Rob doesn't lie about the Rules, too, then I'll just shove the Off-turn casting Rules at you, and demonstrate how those screwed us up.
Yada yada. Prove that they're real/ not just magic attacks and I'll eat my words. Same with anything else I've said thus far. I was never debating the history of stage magicians, or trying to reduce the importance of some new information in a previously lacking school of magic.

I'm actually aware. Yes. I've been reading the comic for quite a few years. I'm not going to debate the clarity of rules that've since been sorted out... but sure. What a dark day in human history.

Kreistor wrote:Oooo... so dramatic.
Thank you. I try.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:41 pm

I wish some of the magic shows I had been to had been more like this. *Claps* Bravo Cubbins, bravo, surely the performance of a lifetime!

And what a cliffhanger! And I have been anticipating Slately and co's (hopefully) successful attack on the airspace for so long. Heh, this is a great page though, so I can wait a bit longer.

And Archons are always fun, so much corporate lingo and so professional about it all. :)

Kreistor wrote:No indication either way makes it is no less noteworthy that they didn't vs. if they did. The difference with the troops in the dungeon is that, like Ossomer, they were former Jetstone and like him lost Wanda's bonus. We don't know the mechanic that let Ossomer Turn yet (since the dominance effect was presumed to be from Croakamancy which was absolute and not Thinkamancy which was not, until Ossomer Turned), so there's still more we need to learn. In this case, one could speculate that with Wanda's bonus gone, perhaps Tramennis' bonus replaced it and this gave him the power to Turn. If true, then the same happens to all former Jetstone units in the Tunnels. Right now, the troops in the dungeon are Shrodinger's Cat... both Turned and unTurned. Totally appropriate for beings that are Decrypted -- both Dead and Alive.


True, perhaps, although I don't think it would make narrative sense for Wanda's bonus to be a dominating factor and her leaving suddenly triggering a wave of turns. It could play a part, but Oss had been building and building and seemed to be the culmination of a whole heap of things he was forced to sit through, I feel it may detract something from that if it turns out to simple be a side effect of Wanda leaving as opposed to choosing for himself. He appeared no less loyal to Wanda when he was first decrypted, but his treatment appears to have dropped that fast as opposed to Antium or Lacrosse who haven't had an opportunity to stew in their own juices for ages and really think about how comfortable a fit Wandaism is and as a result haven't appeared to troubled by serving GK.

Perhaps there are some other Decrypted that are as deeply unhappy as Oss was and who will feel Wanda leave and it will spark something off deep down inside, but as I have read it nothing has really suggested the tool holder just leaving will automatically require everyone to roll vs turning.

mcw0933 wrote:Any guesses on the golden boulder-looking object attacking the Archon near the top of the frame?


I think it is just a yellow ball, commonly used in magic shows for juggling, appearing in the mouth, being made disappear etc (since all the other things are items associated with stage magicians - rabbits, doves, scarves, the saw - only thing missing is some playing cards).

Kaed wrote:I think the most likely explaination of Cubbins holding back is that this particular spell could only be performed in a tower. Why this is is less clear though. Perhaps the tower bonus to casters was responsible, or perhaps he did indeed use the tower defenses, empowering them with Hat Magic for a final assault.


It does look like he is drawing from the tower - the yellow energy looks like it is wafting off of parts of it in Cubbins second panel. I actually thought he might be draining the tower for one big empowered offensive hat spell, but looking at it more I think he is shaping the tower's generic attack magic, empowering it, with some hat magician specialty.

Cnor wrote:I'm not certain that it's just a diversion. I think he's specifically trying to incapacitate them, but deliberately avoiding doing any dusting. Remember, Jetstone is broke. The bounty for dusting a Decrypted Archon is only 5,000, whereas that for returning one to Charlie for study is 30,000, if I remember correctly. So, if he can make it so that the Archons can't do anything to prevent themselves from being taken prisoner, they can get a lot more money.


That saw seems to be doing a good job in disarming them (sorry, sorry), if that Archon lives and so does Slately and co maybe they can capture that one.

But yeah, he's definitely not going for a distraction, the archons are a big threat to Slately and co, so a big threat to Jetstone surviving the turn. He's doing all he can to push things more in Slately's favor. It seems if he is going out, he's going out like a champ.

caffeinemancer wrote:Are the text updates required reading? I ask because I have gotten completely lost trying to read only the comic pages. Was never sure after the first book what we were supposed to read versus what we were supposed to be able to skip.


They don't take long to read, heh, I don't know why you would want to skip the text updates because they are really quite good.

But anyway, they offer a fair bit of background, a fair bit of what is going on in peoples heads and some good insight into what is going on in general. The comic follows the main thread of the action while the updates will reveal things happening "off screen" - in recent updates (spoilers, I guess) if you skipped them and read only the comic you would have little idea what Oss was talking about when he told Slately of Artemis' sacrifice. Further back if you skipped them you might be "huh?" about Sammy of Haggar talking about Charlie pulling strings/being in charge as the scene with Charlie strong arming Haggar into doing what Charlescomm wanted came from a text update. Or about what Jillian has been doing since - which could lead to a "huh?" if we cut to her and Vanna turning a bunch of troops, since where she got them is revealed in an text update.

But I would say no, I think you would be able to read the comic and still understand what is going on fairly easy, you're just going to keep getter references to events, conversations and things like that you wont have any idea about because they happened in a text update.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Kreistor » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:13 am

Atomic wrote:Wait, done what before? Made sarcastic posts, threw out outlandish theories, or?


There was sarcasm in my first post?

As for "outlandish", that's a matter of opinion. You have yet to demonstrate anything I said was so impossible as to be "outlandish". That's your excessive drama trait characterizing me, trying to boost your ego at my expense, and not an actual evaluation of the content.

No, you're skewing the inclination of the story to fit your theories.


Obviously a false analysis. I consider both possibilities so equally that I came up with the Shrodinger's Cat analogy, which indicates I have absolutely no leanings. You're the one stuck on only one possible reality, with no evidence either way.

Whereas, it should be the other way around: your theories should fit to the outline the story has given us. In fact, no indication either way makes it all the more likely that nothing has changed.


You're an English Major, and you don't understand the drama inherent in retaining the tension of "Are they or aren't they?" Or in the later surprise revelation as former Allies flood out of the dungeon to hit Sylvia?

Just to pose a question here, since you seem to be challenging a lot of the basic ideas I'm setting forth...


Actually, you challenged my ideas, if you go back and review the order of posts. While what I posted may challenge your thoughts, I'm not a mind reader and so it could not have been a personal attack. Your first response, on the other hand...

when did Rob tell us that it was the lack of Wanda's bonus that caused Ossomer to turn?


Not flat out said, but strongly suggested in the Panel before Ossomer Turned, when Parson asked Wanda how the troops would do without her bonus. (Also note the Artifact bonus from the Arkenpliers... both bonuses are limited to Wanda's Hex and both disappeared when she left.)

When did Rob tell us that the Arkenplier bonus had any affect on Ossomer/ the rest of the Decrypted? (outside of attack/defense). I'm one to believe that there probably was/ is a bonus given from the pliers, but you seem so certain of it. Prove it.


Another poster has noted, and made large issue of, the fact that Ossomer had previously responded to Slately's demand that he Turn by saying, "No it... it isn't possible." [Book 2, Page 72, Image 128, Panel 2] impossibility indicates magical prevention. Either he was not permitted to try to Turn, or he tried to Turn and knew that he could not succeed. The only thing that changed was Wanda leaving the Hex, so her (or the Arkenplier's) presence was obviously what prevented him from Turning earlier, because when a symptom changes, we look for cause in things that changed immediately before the symptom did. What was once not possible became possible only when she left with the 'Pliers.

Additionally, because there is still more to learn, why are we holding so fast to these ideas that the placement of Wanda had anything to do with it?


I don't "hold fast" to anything. I constantly review the evidence and change theories accordingly. That means, when Rob has given me incomplete evidence, the conclusion can be wrong. I've been wrong many times. And I've been right many times. I find it fun to try. If you don't, then ignore me. No one is forcing you to read my posts. And that you're somehow offended by my efforts is not going to inspire me to stop. In the end, I just laugh at you and ignore YOU if you make yourself a pest. I welcome criticism of my thoughts. I don't welcome mockery.

What makes the battle of Jetstone so important that, when one disgruntled unit turns, there's a chance that all of Gobwin Knob's units have turned?


It could have been the Battle for the Hair on my Arse, for all i care. It's new! It's different! It was never considered possible before! Everyone agreed that Decrypted were devoted to the Wanda the way the Archons are devoted to Charlie, to maintain the parallel of the Arkentools' associated units (the third being tamed Dwagons for Stanley). Ossomer breaking free has broad reaching implications... if one Arkentool's dominance over its associated Units can be overcome, then maybe all three canl? I find that interesting and exciting, because it casts doubt on the absolutes that we once "knew.". If you don't, then why are you bothering, because it's going to keep me going, regardless of your delusion that I should somehow care what you think and act however you feel is appropriate.

By your Shrodinger's reasoning, Maggie is both dead/ alive (was there a backlash?!)... Ansom is both Turned/ unTurned (Did the Magic Kingdom short out the pliers?!)... and Charlie is both Tuna/ unTuna. That's ridiculous.


I think you meant Wanda? Maggie knows how to divert such Backlashes back on the subject of the Suggestion. It's conceivable that Wanda is dead, but that the Decryptes Archons still exist strongly suggests that she and the Pliers are still attuned.

Actually, Ansom is the most likely candidate to Turn, since he too is a Warlord. He also has Jillian there trying to Turn him (parallel to Slately trying to Turn ossomer). He has his love for Jillian also tugging at him, too (parallels Ossomer's distaste for Stanley's lack of Honor), so the chance that Ansom has joined FAQ is not insignificant. The leverage that was in place for Ossomer is also in place for Ansom.

Hey, aren't English Majors supposed to be good at finding parallels between characters, and analyze their different responses? Kinda remember projects like that way back.

I don't really get what you're going for in this paragraph, though. Are you saying that the Magic Kingdom IS shorting the pliers out, or that it isn't?


I'm not "saying" anything. If you read carefully, you'll see I was pointing out other people's speculation. I was doing this because, for some reason, you seem convinced that I'm the only one speculating around here, which is obviously false.

'cause I'm pretty sure things like that can't be selective. The Archons are still with Gobwin Knob, and they (out of nearly all the characters we've seen Decrypted) have the strongest remaining connection to their former side. If it were a drop in Loyalty caused by the 'pliers, my money would be on those Archons turning before Ossomer.


Nice pet theory. Can you prove Ossomer was less loyal to Slately than the Archons to Charlie? Or do you only demand proof from other people, and it's okay for you to speculate as much as you want? Because by your own reasonaing, since Ossomer Turned and the Archons didn't, it is highly suggestive that Ossomer had the higher Loyalty in the first place.

An English major with an emphasis in creative writing... so yes. I trust that, of the multiple doctorate-level professors I've talked to, they probably know best.


You consulted your professors on this comic? Wow. Or do you presume that having learned from them, that you're now as smart as them without them looking over your shoulder? I note that you don't claim to be a professor yourself, which suggests you didn't make the grades necessary to count yourself in their company.

Kreistor wrote:...merp...
See top of my post about Archons/ veils (as well as kefkakrazy's post on the matter).


False quote. I never said "...merp...".

I don't buy that rationalized interpretation. By your interpretation, we could never know anything because absolutes like "no chance" are whatever you choose them to be, whenever it is convenient for them not to be absolutes. Thus you could never be wrong. (You could never be right, either, because there are any other number of theories based on such rationalized misinterpretations, but I'm sure you've convinced yourself otherwise.) That's a common delusion in Internet debaters, as an ego defense. Congrats, you've figured out how to always be right, argue semantics as a distraction until you turn blue, and never, ever have to apologize for being wrong, simply by saying, "Neener neener you can't prove it to me." You're right. No one can ever prove anything to you. You've found that perfect place where you can never be touched.

I feel sorry for you. Only the irrational can never be wrong.

"No chance" is synonymous with "impossible". Archons cannot be fooled by Foolamancy, because Parson is convinced it's not possible. He has the facility to test the theory, because he has a Master Class Foolamancer to test the absoluteness of that ability. If he had any doubt, he could test it. That they put his plan in motion suggests that either he did test it and proved it accurate, or already knew his conviction was correct.

So I totally reject your interpretation.

So, by that reasoning, there's an equal chance that all of Book 2 is a lie?


No, because Jack cannot cast outside his Hex off-Turn. He also has Duty to his Overlord, and so must accurately portray events to his Overlord's representative, Chief Warlord Parson, unless he feels it is in the Overlord's best interest to do otherwise, such as having to Fool Parson in order to Fool tGMtTA. (Considering his own butt is on the line, it's unlikely Jack could rationalize his own suicide by falsely portraying the reality in Jetstone.)

What if this entire book is only Jack showing Parson the potential trouble that could arise...


That would go over like Dallas dreaming away an entire season. Highly unpopular with readers.

Didn't mean to invite you to a flame war...


BS. Been around this block way too many times. You use your language skills to indirectly incite your opponents into violating forum Rules in order to get them banned, or gather warnings that force them off their game. You're still doing it. You'll do it in the next post, too, until you realize that the only person that trick impresses is yourself, because every time I deny your attacks on my character, the readers are impressed by my resistance, and less impressed by your repeated use of a failed gambit. The only place that you're civil is in some tiny corner of your mind where you've rationalized this as acceptable behavior in debates.

Yada yada.


Case in point. Can't actually face the logic and evidence, so diminish it with childish taunts that suggest that since you have a strong capacity for language, that somehow it was "obviously" false and you don't have to deal with it. Truth is, you can't deal with it, and this is all you've got left.

Prove that they're real/ not just magic attacks and I'll eat my words.


You'll never "eat your words." You'll dodge and weave, find rationalizations, distractions, and never EVER accept you're wrong. On the other hand, I have apologized on this forum for faulty knowledge that lead to false conclusions.

Same with anything else I've said thus far. I was never debating the history of stage magicians, or trying to reduce the importance of some new information in a previously lacking school of magic.


Welcome to Erfworld. What's in a Name is important. Croakamancers do things with the Croaked. Turnamancers do things with Turns. And Hat Magic does things with Hats. To determine the limits of any Magic School we look to the name and the genre that inspired it. You're convinced the creatures are special effects, but that's not based on the entertainment that Hat Magic draws from.

I'm actually aware. Yes. I've been reading the comic for quite a few years. I'm not going to debate the clarity of rules that've since been sorted out... but sure. What a dark day in human history.


Odd, then, that you think Rob always gives us the full truth, the first time, every time. That he doesn't Fool us

Thank you. I try.


Drama is easy. That's why most don't bother with it. Try for something more challenging. Like being civil to people that attack you without justification.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby drachefly » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:12 am

My God, Kriestor.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Renion » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:41 am

I'd like to bring up something I mentioned months ago. The summer updates were tediously slow, and the pacing of the story hit a brick wall in portal park.

That said, it was an incredible ending to the issue Rob. You write on hell of a good story.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby goodmorning » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:37 am

Ok, what I said earlier was clearly not accurate. Cubbins' spell must have been tower-powered. Makes a lot of sense, and yeah, makes the KingWorld spell even more plausible. Also, I cannot believe that I hadn't twigged on to the fact that only Ossomer had turned until I read things here. Must have had a slow day.

Kriestor, following the idea that dramatic logic has a good chance of being right, I wouldn't think that Jack making the whole thing an illusion has much credence. I just think it's been used a few too many times this turn to make a good story. On the other hand, I have to agree with pretty much everything else. The Hat magic looks like its all special effects, as if they're real, then Cubbins can create killer rabbits with the Fly special. However, given the basis of Hat magic, it makes far more sense for it to be real.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:04 am

An era has ended. Issue 2 is complete.

Hats removed, moments of silence. WTG Cubbins, but I think the CINDY* club has yet to lose hope.

Cliff-hangers well set-up, we await with trepidation more news from the Erfen front. To the Titans well done, and TitanSpeed! Or not, as TitanSpeed is slow :P

*: Cubbins Is Not Dead Yo!

=========
drachefly wrote:My God, Kriestor.


Indeed. That post of his before yours, I find that post amusing, it makes me laugh.

Spoiler: show
Kreistor wrote:As for "outlandish", that's a matter of opinion. You have yet to demonstrate anything I said was so impossible as to be "outlandish". That's your excessive drama trait characterizing me, trying to boost your ego at my expense, and not an actual evaluation of the content.

{snip}

Actually, you challenged my ideas, if you go back and review the order of posts. While what I posted may challenge your thoughts, I'm not a mind reader and so it could not have been a personal attack. Your first response, on the other hand...

{snip}

Or do you only demand proof from other people, and it's okay for you to speculate as much as you want?

{snip}

I don't buy that rationalized interpretation. By your interpretation, we could never know anything because absolutes like "no chance" are whatever you choose them to be, whenever it is convenient for them not to be absolutes. Thus you could never be wrong. (You could never be right, either, because there are any other number of theories based on such rationalized misinterpretations, but I'm sure you've convinced yourself otherwise.) That's a common delusion in Internet debaters, as an ego defense. Congrats, you've figured out how to always be right, argue semantics as a distraction until you turn blue, and never, ever have to apologize for being wrong, simply by saying, "Neener neener you can't prove it to me." You're right. No one can ever prove anything to you. You've found that perfect place where you can never be touched.

I feel sorry for you. Only the irrational can never be wrong.

{snip}

BS. Been around this block way too many times. You use your language skills to indirectly incite your opponents into violating forum Rules in order to get them banned, or gather warnings that force them off their game. You're still doing it. You'll do it in the next post, too, until you realize that the only person that trick impresses is yourself, because every time I deny your attacks on my character, the readers are impressed by my resistance, and less impressed by your repeated use of a failed gambit. The only place that you're civil is in some tiny corner of your mind where you've rationalized this as acceptable behavior in debates.

{snip}

Case in point. Can't actually face the logic and evidence, so diminish it with childish taunts that suggest that since you have a strong capacity for language, that somehow it was "obviously" false and you don't have to deal with it. Truth is, you can't deal with it, and this is all you've got left.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby MarbitChow » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:10 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:WTG Cubbins, but I think the CINDY* club has yet to lose hope. *: Cubbins Is Not Dead Yo!

I put myself in the CINDY club as well, in exactly the same as Ansom and Sylvia is are not dead yet.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Urf » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:16 am

Could someone link me to the end of issue 1?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Selexor » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:54 am

I wouldn't say that Cubbins necessarily had to be on the tower to cast this spell. But it's possible he can't cast it while mounted, with the difficulty of mentally controlling so many objects at once while keeping his focus on conjuring them. Or, on the other hand, Cubbins may know that if he entered the airspace, the Archons would be able to target him - and almost certainly would, since this spell is apparently a damn powerful one. If he's going to croak while taking down the Archons for his King, he may have chosen to do so while saving another two archers and shielding himself from the Archons for as long as possible. To say nothing of the power bonus granted to him by the Tower, of course!
I think for Cubbins it was a choice - be a pop gun in the airspace and probably croak, or be an artillery weapon in the tower and definitely croak. Duty and Loyalty, both to his King and his friends, made it a pretty simple choice. Way to go, little man.

This helps Jetstone a fair bit; with Cubbins burning out in a final blaze of glory, and King Slately and his troops attacking the airspace with Ossomer at his side, the Archons are basically toast, though they might do some damage before they're done. Now, I'm assuming that Tramennis might be being carried by one of the Unipegataurs - Slately would have probably felt it when his Chief Warlord was incapacitated, so he'd know about that. Pierce might have even healed Tramennis, though if so I'm surprised we weren't shown it. But I do wonder what comes next... considering that Dwagons seem to have a formidable amount of Move, how far can Jetstone possibly fly before Gobwin Knob's next turn? Slately and his merry band may escape the fall of Spacerock only to be chased down and croaked a handful of hexes away, unless someone can come to their aid.

And here's a final thought. Assuming that Slately achieves his goal, the Decryted Archons are pretty much done for, since Slately specifically stated his intention to earn Charlie's bounty. He won't leave any behind. So Wanda loses her little squadron of flying mini-casters. On the other hand... assuming she makes it back into Spacerock before the portal closes, is a Decrypted Cubbins fair trade? After this display, I'm thinking yes.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 74

Postby Lamech » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:26 am

Dang, I just realized this: Tram is down for the count and his healers gone. What a terrible way to go, an off-handed attack by Wanda? He died, to a side effect to a plan to get some use out of spare dwagons. That just sucks.
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