Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Kreistor » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:22 am

heyduck wrote:Well hippiemancy falls under life and matter, and naughtymancy is under matter and motion, uncroaked are considered matter that moves which means hippiemancy should be able to affect it; if these alignments mean anything that is.


Or, in order to affect it, the target must have both life and matter, meaning the uncroaked, which may all be stacked with Wanda, might actually be immune. If Wanda releases them, they would go on attack against an enemy that can not defend themselves. And thus, Olive is forced to Turn and joins Goodminton.

That would be a murderous combination if it works. Approach city, siege, Pacify, release the horde.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Raza » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:13 am

Chillaxe.

Yeah, that was good.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Whispri » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:37 am

technojunkie wrote:Magnitude maybe.

Recall that during the runup to the battle for Gobwin Knob, Wanda said to sizemore 'Not even a Grand Abbie could hope to calm the coming battle.'

Maybe so, but I meant in this situation, it will probably wear off at turns end, but their turn is second... It looks like they've been hit by an 'I Win' button.

On the other hand, is this really the doom the Predictatrickster spoke of? Serious trouble? Quite likely. But the end? Unless Wanda's Fellows are dusting this turn, they could still make a march for it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby vintermann » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:08 am

OneHugeTuck wrote:To all the people that got their panties in a bunch over the KINGWORLD spell, in the face of this seemingly all powerful combat stopper, I say, chill out.


It's not overpowered like the tools are. All Olive Branch has done is delayed the battle - she can't force an outcome she wants, or even force the enemy to parley. What made this such a win for their side, is that most of the advantage of Wanda's uncroaked is neutralized.

Unless the Chillaxe IS in fact the fourth tool, hmmmm. Somewhere, Wanda has to learn of the Tools. I don't think Erfworld units are born with the knowledge, since it was suggested there could be more than those four.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Swodaems » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:43 am

I think this opens up a new possibility into how Wanda is going to come under the command of Olive.

Betrayal, pure and simple. We have three named Goodmitton characters capable of commiting the act who are about to consume a large amount of wine.* My guess is that the big red guy is going to get very drunk, realize that his desire to win can be granted easily by a larger side, stab Tommy in the back, and give Wanda to Haffaton. Of course, Wanda or Tommy could be the one to do the drunken betraying but that would mean going agaunst red head stereotypes.

(*Assuming that the last set of lyrics in this update wasn't Olive turning back on the combat for the hex. I can see a lot of use for the ability to turn combat on and off as you please during a battle.)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Goshen » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:29 am

Kreistor wrote:In D&D, undead are immune to mind affecting spells, like this. And if it affected only Wanda's ability to order them to attack, she could disband, they'd become unleaded, and attack the enemy immediately, so it must be afflicting them, too.


I think it is most likely that the undead not affected, but Wanda is, as you suggest. But if Wanda disbanded they might disband too, or just rot unmoving, or follow their last order, or obey simple commands as ever. Probably the last option.

One big thing we don't know is whether Tommy could simply turn is army around and leave the city while this zone of peacefulness is in effect. I think he probably could. But that would not solve the problem os his undead rotting away.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Amado » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:50 am

Awesomely funny update. Tee hee!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Gorky » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:18 am

It seems like Hippiemancy is the natural defense against Croakamancy. Croakamancy requires croaked units, which usually come from combat. Hippiemancy quiets combat. No combat = no croaked units = Croakamancer is just a weak melee unit.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Whispri » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:52 am

Gorky wrote:It seems like Hippiemancy is the natural defense against Croakamancy. Croakamancy requires croaked units, which usually come from combat. Hippiemancy quiets combat. No combat = no croaked units = Croakamancer is just a weak melee unit.

Beyond her not having trained with her staff as much as she'd like, can we really make any statement about Wanda's strength in Melee?

As far as Hippiemancy vs Croakamancy goes, I guess that depends on how much respite the flower girl's bought. If it's always going to be impossible for Goodminton to attack a City with her in it, her side could never lose. But if Goodminton gets to attack on their next turn, (or on someone elses turn(or at night)) they could yet take the City.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Kreistor » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:58 am

Goshen wrote:
Kreistor wrote:In D&D, undead are immune to mind affecting spells, like this. And if it affected only Wanda's ability to order them to attack, she could disband, they'd become unleaded, and attack the enemy immediately, so it must be afflicting them, too.


I think it is most likely that the undead not affected, but Wanda is, as you suggest. But if Wanda disbanded they might disband too, or just rot unmoving, or follow their last order, or obey simple commands as ever. Probably the last option.


By "disband", I meant "unstack". Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby ParsonIsOP » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:57 pm

DoctorJest wrote:Using "tool" in the fashion the song did kinda steps out of rank of Stanley not recognizing the word as an insult. Granted, Stanley's not the brightest bulb but I think he knows the language.

Not a major point, but one that stuck out in an otherwise great update. Just seems incongruous. And yes, before anyone bothers, we can do all kinds of mental and verbal gymnastics to explain why Stanley didn't see the word as an insult when everyone else on Erfworld does... but that misses the point.

But the last stanza was brilliant!

I took it to be an unintentional foreshadowing. The idea of being a Tool of the Titans ties into the free will angst of Wanda and Parson.

Lamech wrote:As someone has already pointed out, the whole city is now vunerable to destroying. Start smashing down the walls, burn the garrison, buildings are certainly not attack proof. The city has been effectivly sacrificed. Actually, they can just have some infantry rush and block the caster from getting down off the tower then down the tower. Victory!

Except that the it's very strongly implied that all use of force is basically going to be much softer than you intended. Moreover, there seems to be a psychological block in place. This too is strongly implied by the sword tapping a soldier by the flat, as though he were being "knighted."

Whispri wrote:
technojunkie wrote:Magnitude maybe.

Recall that during the runup to the battle for Gobwin Knob, Wanda said to sizemore 'Not even a Grand Abbie could hope to calm the coming battle.'

Maybe so, but I meant in this situation, it will probably wear off at turns end, but their turn is second... It looks like they've been hit by an 'I Win' button.

On the other hand, is this really the doom the Predictatrickster spoke of? Serious trouble? Quite likely. But the end? Unless Wanda's Fellows are dusting this turn, they could still make a march for it.

This power does have limitations, keep in mind that Erfworld is a zero-sum game. You have to get new sources of upkeep and eventually expand, otherwise you have to start disbanding units or falling behind other Sides. The attacking units can just dig-in and siege and wait you out while you starve or they can just leave and hit other targets while your Hippiemancer is stalling. Peace that isn't spent building-up or obtaining resources is effectively death for a side.

But Goodminton is behind economically and politically. So while Wanda is powerful, the Casters of the other Sides are more powerful because they can operate with a lot more flexibility. This echoes a lot of what Clay is said to Wanda about being one die. Her magic is outnumbered by an unknown number of magicians with unknown capabilities.

If Goodminton refuses parley and remain commited, they'll still lose their uncroaked to decay and they waste upkeep they can scarce afford. Haffaton can then call for reinforcements and then curb-stomp them (assuming they cannot just cut off their retreat in a turn or two). Goodminton is hopelessly outnumbered by multiple Sides who are wealthier than them, so taking this city is of the upmost importance to them.

Basically a Hippiemancer can put you ahead further if you're already ahead and only delays the inevitable if you're significantly behind. Even if Gobwin Knob had enough Hippiemancers and Flower Power there in book 1 to calm the entire siege, it wouldn't matter, because their treasure is running low anyway and Stanley would lose most of his units due to lack of upkeep. Nevermind how expensive the Hippiemancers themselves would be to maintain.

A possibility is that they're going to be told that they can be cut-off in a "x" amount of turns. Worse, depending on how many turns out the Wanda's forces are, it may be relatively easy to have their retreat cut off given the aforementioned hidden tunnel tactic. I think Wanda is going to have to turn sides because it is an Offer She Cannot Refuse.

Goodminton is likely doomed mostly because the peace isn't going to be favorable to them in the long-term. They'll be forced into a relatively disadvantageous economic position surrounded by potential enemies they cannot attack, while these enemies quietly build up an advantage and divvying up the Goodminton pie.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Whispri » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:22 pm

ParsonIsOP wrote:This power does have limitations, keep in mind that Erfworld is a zero-sum game. You have to get new sources of upkeep and eventually expand, otherwise you have to start disbanding units or falling behind other Sides. The attacking units can just dig-in and siege and wait you out while you starve or they can just leave and hit other targets while your Hippiemancer is stalling.

But Goodminton is behind economically and politically. So while Wanda is powerful, the Casters of the other Sides are more powerful because they can operate with a lot more flexibility. This echoes a lot of what Clay is said to Wanda about being one die. Her magic is outnumbered by an unknown number of magicians with unknown capabilities.

If Goodminton refuses parley and remain commited, they'll still lose their uncroaked to decay and they waste upkeep they can scarce afford. Haffaton can then call for reinforcements and then curb-stomp them. The only good choice is a forced withdrawal. Goodminton is hopelessly outnumbered by multiple Sides who are wealthier than them, so taking this city is of the upmost importance to them.

Basically Hippiemancer can put you ahead further if you're already ahead. But if you're behind it's little more than a stalling tactic.

Really I think it depends on how much time Wanda's Fellows have left. If they have, say, six more turns, they could pound their way to a different City by then, leaving behind a strong enough guard force at the other Cities to hold this mob at bay. If they leave the towers and gather fresh siege along the way, less time might still be enough. Even if not, Wanda can raise the dead in battle so she's not a minor obstacle by any means.

Although, if they ask for something other than Wanda... Why are they suddenly so keen on alliance? If they have an Overlord as well, maybe there's an anti-Overlord army on the horizon?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby ParsonIsOP » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:27 pm

Whispri wrote:
ParsonIsOP wrote:This power does have limitations, keep in mind that Erfworld is a zero-sum game. You have to get new sources of upkeep and eventually expand, otherwise you have to start disbanding units or falling behind other Sides. The attacking units can just dig-in and siege and wait you out while you starve or they can just leave and hit other targets while your Hippiemancer is stalling.

But Goodminton is behind economically and politically. So while Wanda is powerful, the Casters of the other Sides are more powerful because they can operate with a lot more flexibility. This echoes a lot of what Clay is said to Wanda about being one die. Her magic is outnumbered by an unknown number of magicians with unknown capabilities.

If Goodminton refuses parley and remain commited, they'll still lose their uncroaked to decay and they waste upkeep they can scarce afford. Haffaton can then call for reinforcements and then curb-stomp them. The only good choice is a forced withdrawal. Goodminton is hopelessly outnumbered by multiple Sides who are wealthier than them, so taking this city is of the upmost importance to them.

Basically Hippiemancer can put you ahead further if you're already ahead. But if you're behind it's little more than a stalling tactic.

Really I think it depends on how much time Wanda's Fellows have left. If they have, say, six more turns, they could pound their way to a different City by then, leaving behind a strong enough guard force at the other Cities to hold this mob at bay. If they leave the towers and gather fresh siege along the way, less time might still be enough. Even if not, Wanda can raise the dead in battle so she's not a minor obstacle by any means.

Although, if they ask for something other than Wanda... Why are they suddenly so keen on alliance? If they have an Overlord as well, maybe there's an anti-Overlord army on the horizon?

EDITED the above post. As stated above, even if they did have time, if they're several turns out, there's a lot the enemy can do to cut off their retreat. The aforementioned hidden tunnels can be kept closed and opened the next turn. If those tunnels are deployed several turns back along Goodminton's retreat path, then things are NOT looking good for them. They cannot afford to be surrounded.

We also don't know if they've got allied Foolamancers who can Veil units. We also don't know what other Casters are in play and what traps they're capable of either. And my guess is going to be that they far outnumber Goodminton's three Casters. Even a home-base Lookamancer can make life very difficult for Goodminton since they're largely in unknown territory and have to rely on scouts (which intrinsically makes the other Sides better at stealth).

Worse, what if the Hippiemancer's forces pursue? What if she can use her magic turn-after-turn while following them? Goodminton certainly cannot stay on the road while that force just sits one hex away from them.

There's too much the enemy can do right now.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby the_tick_rules » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:34 pm

beasty boys isn't all the peaceful, but still awesome pun choice.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby gameboy1234 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:49 pm

Whispri wrote:
Gorky wrote:It seems like Hippiemancy is the natural defense against Croakamancy. Croakamancy requires croaked units, which usually come from combat. Hippiemancy quiets combat. No combat = no croaked units = Croakamancer is just a weak melee unit.


As far as Hippiemancy vs Croakamancy goes, I guess that depends on how much respite the flower girl's bought. If it's always going to be impossible for Goodminton to attack a City with her in it, her side could never lose. But if Goodminton gets to attack on their next turn, (or on someone elses turn(or at night)) they could yet take the City.



These are excellent point. I assume the offense against Hippiemancy would be to make sure you had some additional tricks in your deck.

For starters, it appears Hippiemancy only effects limited numbers of units (Janis's spell affected only JoJo) or limited hexes (Olive Branch's spell, a high level one, affects one hex--one city). So if the army was large enough units in hexes outside the city could surround it and destroy it, or just block opponents until Olive Branch ran out of juice.

In many wargames it's possible to just sit on the hexes around a city and wait until it runs out of supply and resources. It'll just collapse as the treasury empties. This is the main way to defeat the "perfect defense" type of player, just siege them out and go around them, Maginot Line style, until they're forced to attack or their side implodes from lack of resources. This might work for Hippiemancy too.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby barawn » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:08 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:To all the people that got their panties in a bunch over the KINGWORLD spell, in the face of this seemingly all powerful combat stopper, I say, chill out.


Big difference: in this case, Wanda and Tommy can leave.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:18 pm

joosy wrote:Nice. Set up a juicy target and draw in your enemies forces. Then neuter them so they can't fight. All you have to do is wait for Wanda's Fellows to decay and then the tables are turned. Sweet.


I think they can still move, so if that were a problem Wanda and Co. could just pack their bags and move somewhere else.

joosy wrote:and I have always considered the Beastie Boys music rather relaxing and peace inducing.


Though Meshuggah is better.

barawn wrote:Big difference: in this case, Wanda and Tommy can leave.


Argh, I got ninjaed.

OneHugeTuck wrote:To all the people that got their panties in a bunch over the KINGWORLD spell, in the face of this seemingly all powerful combat stopper, I say, chill out.


Your Hippiemancy isn't strong enough.

Also, depending on the number of foes you have at any one time, a Hippiemancer side is (almost) immortal, as Whispri suggests. (Though, rather than losing no battle, it would be the case that they'd never lose their capital and ruler unless attacked by at least two sides that are not allied in the same day; close to immortal). If your point is that "look, Hippiemancy is powerful too, what, do you still think KW is overpowered?", then yes, yes I do, and I might add another thing to that list also.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby multilis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:34 pm

barawn wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:To all the people that got their panties in a bunch over the KINGWORLD spell, in the face of this seemingly all powerful combat stopper, I say, chill out.


Big difference: in this case, Wanda and Tommy can leave.


Leave to where? Are they safer in the field compared to in the city? How are they better off than if Kingsworld was cast?

Details are difference, end result is very similar. GK against Jetstone Chillaxe if powerful enough to stop their whole army, yes they might be able to get better defensive position but they also wouldn't have a Parson trick shot at still winning. If they were almost out of move which is likely, then all Jetstone forces from bridge and in city combine to hunt them, and they might still lose.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:38 pm

multilis wrote:Leave to where? Are they safer in the field compared to in the city? How are they better off than if Kingsworld was cast?


Are you for real?

It's their turn. If they leave the city, they can go where they please. Had there been another Haffaton stack in a hex nearby, that stack wouldn't have Hippie protection so they could attack that. If they decided to just bypass this city, they could do so, now.

It's not even remotely similar.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby multilis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:40 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
multilis wrote:Leave to where? Are they safer in the field compared to in the city? How are they better off than if Kingsworld was cast?


Are you for real?

It's their turn. If they leave the city, they can go where they please. Had there been another Haffaton stack in a hex nearby, that stack wouldn't have Hippie protection so they could attack that. If they decided to just bypass this city, they could do so, now.

It's not even remotely similar.

On their turn they bypassed a city to go for a further one... that means they are probably *almost* out of move.

Normally attacker on defense in a game you are about as strong *inside* an enemy city as you are in a field.

Kingsworld, they end turn inside city, here they end turn a few hex outside city, not much strategic difference, unless enemy has way to exploit the difference in air and ground zones inside a city. But the game here seems to be decay of the uncroaked "fellows"
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