Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Lamech » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:41 pm

multilis wrote:
barawn wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:To all the people that got their panties in a bunch over the KINGWORLD spell, in the face of this seemingly all powerful combat stopper, I say, chill out.


Big difference: in this case, Wanda and Tommy can leave.


Leave to where? Are they safer in the field compared to in the city? How are they better off than if Kingsworld was cast?
Because it does not render them unable to attack but vulnerable to attack. Had this happened to the GK forces they simply would have floated off to burn another city. In fact, assuming that it has the same duration as the one Janis used they can just camp right in the garrison until the turn runs out and then start the fight. This is vastly less powerful than kingworld.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:44 pm

multilis wrote:On their turn they bypassed a city to go for a further one... that means they are probably *almost* out of move.

Normally attacker on defense in a game you are about as strong *inside* an enemy city as you are in a field.


Judging by the last sentence, then they lose nothing, defensively, by just moving out if they can. First sentence is kinda speculative.

Also, a further difference between this and KW is that Goodminton is not paralyzed. Goodminton is in a whole mess of troubles (they seem to lack a Thinkamancer) but that is THEIR bad luck, not the spell imposing it on them. IF they had efficient communications, they could maneuver other troops that they might have had around the Hippiemancer. IF, instead of Hippiemancy, it was KW, then no amount of additional commtech and armies would gain them anything else this turn. Which is why KW especially is an abomination.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby zuche » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:46 pm

barawn wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:To all the people that got their panties in a bunch over the KINGWORLD spell, in the face of this seemingly all powerful combat stopper, I say, chill out.


Big difference: in this case, Wanda and Tommy can leave.


How much move do they have left?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby multilis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:48 pm

Lamech wrote:Because it does not render them unable to attack but vulnerable to attack. Had this happened to the GK forces they simply would have floated off to burn another city. In fact, assuming that it has the same duration as the one Janis used they can just camp right in the garrison until the turn runs out and then start the fight. This is vastly less powerful than kingworld.

The hippymancer waits till they end turn, then quits playing her song? Thus able to attack on our turn when you can't attack on yours, just like kingsworld.

"On their turn they bypassed a city to go for a further one... that means they are probably *almost* out of move." -

- Blandcoporation "First sentence is kinda speculative." Whole thing is guesswork, we don't have a map or know power and requirements of Kingsworld or Chillaxe.

In one turn they can reach 2 enemy cities with ground forces. We know how many days it took Jetstone and GK to march to each enemy city by ground using seige forces. I think one of least guesswork parts is they are almost out of move if it is further city and reached in *one* turn.

Assume to help wanda's side the attackers are almost all horseback, the defenders are almost all footsoldiers, and the attackers abandon the slow siege and run away. In most games I have played the defenders would probably still be able to catch the attackers in this situation on their next turn.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:51 pm

zuche wrote:How much move do they have left?


It doesn't actually matter.

If KW had been cast instead of Hippiemancy, then any move they might have had was terminated on forced turn end.

OTOH, if Hippiemancy had been cast (and it was), then any move they might have is still theirs to use.

If they happen to have no move left, and are stuck in the city, then there are other Goodminton troops that can do stuff this turn.

EVEN if there are no other Goodminton troops that can do stuff this turn, to say this is as powerful as KW is to say that a gun that kills you is just as powerful as the nuke that levels the city you live in. Both get you killed, and if the city happened to be empty besides yourself, then they only kill you. But to equate them in power is ridiculous.

multilis wrote:The hippymancer waits till they end turn, then quits playing her song? Thus able to attack on our turn when you can't attack on yours, just like kingsworld.


Like the above comparison is, sorry but that's what it is, ridiculous. You have a spell that paralyzes a side vs. a spell that paralyzes a hex. Come on, it's obvious which is more powerful.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby multilis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:56 pm

multilis wrote:The hippymancer waits till they end turn, then quits playing her song? Thus able to attack on our turn when you can't attack on yours, just like kingsworld.


Like the above comparison is, sorry but that's what it is, ridiculous. You have a spell that paralyzes a side vs. a spell that paralyzes a hex. Come on, it's obvious which is more powerful.[/quote]
We don't know the details, it is ridiculous to be sure until we do. For both situations... if you gave Kingsworld here and gave the Chillaxe to Jetstone *and* if Chillaxe works on entire hex and any sized army, you may end up with similar effects. Eg imagine GK in near Jetstone, unable to pull Parson's counter attack.

How much does a spell cost, how often can you use it, etc? Kingsworld drained 3 different casters and tri links have random chance to kill casters, this one appears to drain only 1. That perhaps means you could hire 2 more hippymancers from magic kingdom so you could run it non stop during enemy turns. A side that can't attack, only defend is very easy to kill.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby zuche » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:02 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
zuche wrote:How much move do they have left?


It doesn't actually matter.


If it didn't matter, then the option to leave wouldn't be viewed as an important difference between this and KW.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:06 pm

multilis wrote:We don't know the details, it is ridiculous to be sure until we do.


What more details does my power comparison lack? We know KW paralyzes a side, and we are reasonably sure from this update and Wanda's earlier "not even a Grand Abby can stop this" that Hippiemancy as displayed here does not.

What more information should I wait for, before I can declare KW the more powerful? I did not compare costs.

multilis wrote:you may end up with similar effects.


So what? Nuke a desert inhabitted by one person, or shoot that person in the face with a sidearm. Same effect. Weapons have the same power? Come on.

multilis wrote:That perhaps means you could hire 2 more hippymancers from magic kingdom so you could run it non stop.


Of course. Whispri's mentioned this. I've mentioned this. You can make yourself immortal with that by defending your capital. And then I suppose people will just leave your capital alone and plunder all your other cities, once they can. It's a powerful hack Hippiemancy but it won't bring world spanning power all by itself.

zuche wrote:If it didn't matter, then the option to leave wouldn't be viewed as an important difference between this and KW.


What part of the post you quoted that from do you need better explained? Hippiemancy doesn't kill move. KW does. The fact that in this instance of Hippiemancy used, the victims may or may not have move left doesn't change that. See the nuke the desert vs shoot the man in the face comparison.

It doesn't matter that in this instance, some stack has X move left. What matters is that KW kills all move, and Hippiemancy doesn't. Clear?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby multilis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:11 pm

KW costs 3 casters with risk of killing casters, Hippymancy costs 1?

What is the Chillaxe?

What are limits to each spell, including risk of fizzle/fail, counter spells, limit on number of units, recovery time, etc?

From evidence we have right now, both spells may be in same league but are different just as waking a volcano was in same league but different.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:13 pm

multilis wrote:KW costs 3 casters, Hippymancy costs 1?


BLANDCorporatio wrote:I did not compare costs.


In much the same way as you can buy a sidearm, but a nuke is more expensive. And powerful.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby multilis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:16 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:I did not compare costs.


Costs matter because it means how often you can repeat, eg 1/3 of turns or 100% of turns. If 1 hippymancer to 3 casters, then you can hire 3 hippies for 3x the firepower.

It is like saying a crossbow is better than a longbow if crossbow does 2x the damage but only can be shot 1/3 as much.

In end they are often equal because first shot matters the most, so balances out.

Example: Kingsworld stops wanda turn 1. Wanda kills enemy side turn 2.

3 happymancers stop wanda for 3 turns, fellows decay, wanda loses.

We know so very little on details that hard to be sure of anything.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:23 pm

multilis wrote:Costs matter because it means how often you can repeat, eg 1/3 of turns or 100% of turns. If 1 hippymancer to 3 casters, then you can hire 3 hippies for 3x the firepower.


So you can disable attacks in 3 hexes every k turns, or attacks in one hex every k/3 turns. Whoopedy-doo.

As opposed to disabling a whole side, all hundreds of hexes of it, every who cares how many turns.

Example: Kingsworld stops wanda turn 1. Wanda gets killed because crucial maneuvers cannot be done by her and her side and the enemy gets free shots.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:31 pm

Besides, I get the feeling we're arguing like deaf people over different things.

"Magic Bomb does 100 Magic damage, it's more powerful than Magic Arrow which does 10 Magic damage," I say. (<- NOT a fair characterization of my position)

"Yea but Magic arrow might cost 11 times less", you say. (<- Probably NOT a fair one of yours either)

Basically, raw power over cost efficiency in trying to decide which is more "broken".

And I agree, I can't decide whether Hippiemancy is more "broken" than KW is, but I do know that KW is more powerful in raw terms, and that KW is, in fact, broken, and if it came to that I'd have no qualms to add Hippiemancy to the "broken" list.

That's where this thing was started from by OneHugeTuck I think. Either they meant "KW broken?! Phah look at this!" or "This isn't broken and so neither is KW." Actually, KW is, and this may be as well.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby multilis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:39 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if Wanda and friends do not agree to terms, enemy attacks next turn with larger force and Wanda lucks and uncroaks her side to victory and other side runs away (their turn so they can escape of battle goes bad), or hippymancer is captured and is turned to their side.

Book 1 Ansom and Parson often seemed to find ways to escape the traps.

...

On KW... we guess it at least comes with a risk of dead caster, as takes 3 linked casters. (unless charlie can reduce that risk to 0)

...

In normal games: you send a dragon against ground forces with no way to attack air units, and given enough term, dragons ranged weapon can kill them all with zero risk.

You send a small, hard to hit and run force with area/battle field damaging spells and you can wipe out a large army given time.

You send a unit with physical immunity against huge army with no way to do physical damage and you may be able to defeat them all.

You send an Ansom strength unit against a huge army of low level units and no way for them to damage him.

Just because something small in right situation can defeat a large army, doesn't mean it is broken. The broken part may be most sides in this "world" don't know many of the advanced rules, so don't know how to fight back. It could even be as simple as a bluff... the chillaxe may only have effect for less than a turn, or you can build up resistance to it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby name lips » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:40 pm

They could just walk away.

I wonder if they could still attack at a distance with siege. Do they have to be within earshot of the Chillaxe?

I wonder if earplugs might work. That's the kind of physics-based, non-unit/ability based idea that might not occur to erfworlders.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby multilis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:55 pm

We can always compare in a real computer game.

Spell 1: end enemy turn after a minute once every 3 turns with risk of a critical failure. If critical failure you lose 1 of your powerful mage heros. (All trimancer linkups are supposedly quite risky, no idea if Charlie can stop that risk to all 3 or only 'protect' himself like Maggie did.)

Spell 2: end enemy army attack (force retreat) every single turn in a single key hex if defender wants.

Game could be age of wonders 2, or any other game with similar logic to erfworld, in a 1 verses 1 game, where on a smaller map both sides have 1 main field army facing other guy, and many smaller armies.

For me in the age of wonders 2 shadow magic games I currently play, hard to say which is more powerful. I would probably first choose the hippymancy hack, but I also don't have to deal with the the extra advantages in city zones that defender enjoys in "erfworld game". (AOW-SM Game costs less than $10 now through digital download)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Swodaems » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:05 pm

multilis wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:I did not compare costs.


Costs matter because it means how often you can repeat, eg 1/3 of turns or 100% of turns. If 1 hippymancer to 3 casters, then you can hire 3 hippies for 3x the firepower.

It is like saying a crossbow is better than a longbow if crossbow does 2x the damage but only can be shot 1/3 as much.

In end they are often equal because first shot matters the most, so balances out.

Example: Kingsworld stops wanda turn 1. Wanda kills enemy side turn 2.

3 happymancers stop wanda for 3 turns, fellows decay, wanda loses.

We know so very little on details that hard to be sure of anything.


1. What prevents Charlie from hiring multiple turnamancers (and whatever the third caster was if there was one) so he can use Kingworld nonstop? Vanna said it cost her two turns' worth of juice, but we have no idea of the cost to Charlie. (irrelevent question: If linked casters don't have to use up juice equally, would Charlie share or put all the cost on his partner(s)?)

2. As has been said, this ability Haffaton is showing has rather obvious flaws to it: It would not work to stop simultaneous seiges on multiple cities. The Hippiemancer probably has to be in the hex of any units she is affecting. This ability apparently also effects your own side. Olive may have to keep singing non-stop for an entire turn to keep this spell up.

3. Kingworld can be used to force the enemy to expose weaknesses by stopping the enemy's turn while they are in a state that they would never otherwise end turn in. Consider what would have happened had the Chillaxe been used in Spacerock instead of Kingworld. At the very least Wanda would have been able to land her dwagons so they can fight with the returning Jetstone troops instead of having them stranded midair where they are easy targets, but she probably be a very safe distance away by now. Another thing Kingworld could be used for that this spell can't would be to trap Stanley while he is out on his dwagon runs.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:05 pm

multilis wrote:Just because something small in right situation can defeat a large army, doesn't mean it is broken.


True that. As of yet nobody is confident enough to declare Hippiemancy broken. BUT, there is one possible scenario of its use which, while not "broken" in the usual sense, is "annoying".

A side only needs a Ruler and Capital to survive. Depending on a few "ifs" (like how many $$ a city generates, and how many Hippies are needed to enact this full-time), then it may be possible to construct a side with an unassailable capital. "Annoying", because in that as of now completely theoretical scenario nobody could attack and eliminate them. Not "broken" because a side that chooses to follow this strategy can be reduced to just the capital and thereafter ignored.

PS: I've also played Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic. Nice game.

I notice you still compare "cost effectiveness" as opposed to raw power. Ok, fine :roll: One "key hex" can be maneuvered around. A whole turn lost is serious business. The bigger each of the sides get, the better KW becomes. Even if you may sometimes lose a "powerful" mage, you compensate by being 1 third faster than the opponent. For sides with lots of cities where production happens, that is a lot.

So yeah, if two sides that are just starting and only have one important hex anyway, both would do. As they expand, the critical failure risk that you postulate* becomes less significant.

*: remark. NO SPELL that we have seen in Erfworld, ever, failed, or do remind me of one. There was one spell that was broken, but Jillian had to fight against it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby multilis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:08 pm

Swodaems wrote:
multilis wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:I did not compare costs.


Costs matter because it means how often you can repeat, eg 1/3 of turns or 100% of turns. If 1 hippymancer to 3 casters, then you can hire 3 hippies for 3x the firepower.

It is like saying a crossbow is better than a longbow if crossbow does 2x the damage but only can be shot 1/3 as much.

In end they are often equal because first shot matters the most, so balances out.

Example: Kingsworld stops wanda turn 1. Wanda kills enemy side turn 2.

3 happymancers stop wanda for 3 turns, fellows decay, wanda loses.

We know so very little on details that hard to be sure of anything.


1. What prevents Charlie from hiring multiple turnamancers (and whatever the third caster was if there was one) so he can use Kingworld nonstop? Vanna said it cost her two turns' worth of juice, but we have no idea of the cost to Charlie. (irrelevent question: If linked casters don't have to use up juice equally, would Charlie share or put all the cost on his partner(s)?)

2. As has been said, this ability Haffaton is showing has rather obvious flaws to it: It would not work to stop simultaneous seiges on multiple cities. The Hippiemancer probably has to be in the hex of any units she is affecting. This ability apparently also effects your own side. Olive may have to keep singing non-stop for an entire turn to keep this spell up.

3. Kingworld can be used to force the enemy to expose weaknesses by stopping the enemy's turn while they are in a state that they would never otherwise end turn in. Consider what would have happened had the Chillaxe been used in Spacerock instead of Kingworld. At the very least Wanda would have been able to land her dwagons so they can fight with the returning Jetstone troops instead of having them stranded midair where they are easy targets, but she probably be a very safe distance away by now. Another thing Kingworld could be used for that this spell can't would be to trap Stanley while he is out on his dwagon runs.

As I said before we *dont know* enough.

Possible that 1 hippymancer can cast her spell every single turn. Possible if Charlie could do it every single turn he would fry a caster and possibly die himself. (Game may have unstoppable random events like the king who talks to linked up turnomancy caster and risks killing her)

" It would not work to stop simultaneous seiges on multiple cities." - if 3 casters you can protect 3 cities. If enemy is split in 2, you can gather all your faster units and destroy half his army. I usually laugh when computer AI splits his main army in 2, in games I play on smaller map... *especially* if my side had a similar to Wanda (some way to convert some of enemy to my side - seduce, resurrect, trap, etc), I faced that situation many times in last week in my games.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:09 pm

multilis wrote:Possible that 1 hippymancer can cast her spell every single turn. Possible if Charlie could do it every single turn he would fry a caster and possibly die himself. (Game may have unstoppable random events like the king who talks to linked up turnomancy caster and risks killing her)


Possibly a parrot may randomly appear and utter everyone's name. Possibly a rock would fall from the sky and kill everyone.

This cannot be a serious argument.
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