Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Kreistor » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:14 pm

Kingsworld was much worse. It trapped GK in Airspace, where they couldn't normally move to Outer Walls or Courtyard. Parson used an exploit to get them into Garrison, but without that, they were totally vulnerable.

Goodminton has Move left. They can leave, or redeploy inside the city, because the defenders can't fight either. At the very least, Goodminton can turn it into a lot of small fights throughout the entire city.

However, some of those uncraoked won't be there next turn. Numbers will be even more in Haffaton's favour. Goodminton cannot afford a Pyrrhic Victory, so any strategy that costs major losses is not a good choice, even on a win.

What Goodminton can do, since their Turn is next regardless of when night falls, is to simply cast this spell every turn until all of the uncroaked decay. Staying in the city cannot result in Victory.

LEaving the City will put a larger army on their heels with more Move than Goodminton has remaining, because Goodminton has already used some. They cannot flee out of range of the enemy. The enemy will not be hampered by slow siege, so at the very least that will be left behind. In a set piece fight against a superior foe with no signficiant defenses, all the attacker needs is 10% more troops to assure Victory.

Compared to Kingsworld, this would be an annoyance in most situations, since Attackers almost always have more troops than the defenders do. Haffaton stacked this City. That is more impoportant than the nature of the spell. Every caster would have had a game changing spell to cast in this situation, where defenders outnumber offense.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby multilis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:16 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
multilis wrote:Possible that 1 hippymancer can cast her spell every single turn. Possible if Charlie could do it every single turn he would fry a caster and possibly die himself. (Game may have unstoppable random events like the king who talks to linked up turnomancy caster and risks killing her)


Possibly a parrot may randomly appear and utter everyone's name. Possibly a rock would fall from the sky and kill everyone.

This cannot be a serious argument.

Pot calling kettle black?

My answer was to someone who said possible X, so I responded possible Y.

I started with reasonably even rules for both, that each could only be cast 1 every 3 turns by original casters, he said his could be cast more so I did same.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby multilis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:19 pm

"Kingsworld was much worse. It trapped GK in Airspace, where they couldn't normally move to Outer Walls or Courtyard. Parson used an exploit to get them into Garrison, but without that, they were totally vulnerable."

Please name your real life computer game that is closest to Erfworld and I can try to compare. I named AOW-SM already as that is the game I have that is closest to Erfworld (if you use classic turn rules) Normally on a smaller map you do *not* split main army, as enemy can defeat them one at a time like Napolean did in real life. The main army that wins, tends to win the war. Since turn based game- each side has their turn to try and hit one of your smaller split armies.

Given the apparent cost of 1 caster verses 3 and 3 caster linkups known to be risky, I am not sure. (Risk of losing a caster is scary: In for example old Master of Magic, "cracks call" was one of most feared/powerful spells as 25% chance you could lose one hero/mage)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:29 pm

multilis wrote:Pot calling kettle black?


More like pot pointing out to kettle that it is a kettle.

Look, you postulate a spell fail mechanic that we have not seen in Erfworld. It may be there. We haven't seen otherwise right? Or that thing about the King "randomly deciding to talk to casters". Hey, it can happen, right?

Just like the sun might not rise tomorrow. I haven't seen it rise tomorrow after all, how can I be sure that it will?

But to me that kind of "logic" is silly. You can draw conclusions based on available data. On the data we have so far, it's clear KW is vastly more powerful, and probably more cost efficient, than what we've seen now in the form of Hippiemancy.

Under your rules, in AOW:SM, I've said my piece. Still KW. The ability to take 3 turns for every 2 your opponent makes, even if you only get a few shots at that, will increase production, increase area covered for expansion, increase aquired experience, allow further future castings, and is all around better than safe-guarding just one hex.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Lamech » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:59 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Under your rules, in AOW:SM, I've said my piece. Still KW. The ability to take 3 turns for every 2 your opponent makes, even if you only get a few shots at that, will increase production, increase area covered for expansion, increase aquired experience, allow further future castings, and is all around better than safe-guarding just one hex.
Kingworld doesn't increase relative production, it ends the turn so (if it can be cast off-turn without enemy in hex) you can stop them from recovering move. So the turn order becomes Kingworld-side(KW):Other-side-no-move(OS-NM):KW:Otherside(OS):KW:OS-NM, the result is every two of your turns you can prevent them from moving. That gives speed, but production is not increased. In fact it is significantly decreased since you have three linked casters kingworlding instead of casting. The turnamancer alone could give a 50% boost, in prodcution; a linked turnamancer probably more, and then whatevermancer could do something cool as well.

Of course, twice as many moves is a huge advantage. And you can raid, retreat and heal before the enemy gets to respond.


But to compare the two spells: Hippiemancy protects one city, for an unknown amount of time. We don't even know if will last past this turn. At best you can save the capital and end up an ignored little bubble kingdom. Also from book one we learn from Wanda that a Grand Abbey can't stop the coalition, so presumably their is a unit limit, of no more than the coalition size. So a hippiemancer can stop (maybe) a few hundred to a few thousand units. Kingworld can do much more. Also if we don't consider juice costs pretty much every spell becomes broken. Wanda fills a tower each turn. Sizemore turns the mountain into golems! Every unit in Jetstone is decked out in that badass gear made for the king!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Swodaems » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:35 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote: Still KW. The ability to take 3 turns for every 2 your opponent makes, even if you only get a few shots at that, will increase production, increase area covered for expansion, increase aquired experience, allow further future castings, and is all around better than safe-guarding just one hex.

Actually, the nature of KW as shown in the comic (stopping an enemy's turn after he has begun it,) creates a subtly different effect than what you are describing with your 3 for 2. For instance, since units pop at the start of the turn, the victim's unit production isn't affected at all. Neither is unit healing, juice restoration, and any other effect that applies itself automatically upon turn-start. The victim still gets a turn to match yours, albeit one in which he may be unable to move a single unit.

However, going further down the thought path of what happens when you are capable of making an enemy have a turn in which he can do nothing, I've realized that KW also allows you to do something very big that Chillaxe can't: leave vulnerable units in the field near the victim's forces for that turn. In games like Erfworld where you often are relying on resources that are placed outside of your defendable cities for your sources of income, this is a rather nice advantage. (Yes, Erfworld is a game with resources placed outside cities. As proof, I present the descriptions of out of city Farms and Mining tunnels.) Often in games like this, a valid strategy is to send a very small/weak force to the area around an enemy's city to cause general mayhem amongst the enemy's basic operations. It doesn't matter that the force that gets sent is going to be hunted down hard soon and get exterminated as soon as they get noticed. By the time that's happened, they either killed some of the enemy producers/gatherers, or forced them to withdrawl to safety for a bit disrupting their operations. If I was in Erfworld, I would be sending singleton troopers out to my enemy's farms with orders to prematurely croak their pigs. It would work wonders against Chillaxe, but come up very short against KW.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby ftl » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:39 pm

Comparing their direct effects in one situation doesn't seem useful to me.

Their DIRECT effect is the same - enemy wins a single battle where they are greatly outmatched and should lose. That's it.

But so what? I am not going out on a limb at all to say that EVERY SINGLE caster has, in the right situation, a spell or ability they can cast (especially if aided by a tower spell bonus) that can turn a guaranteed loss into a decisive victory. Turnamancy? Turn a single key Warlord. Croakamancy? Raise a surprise army (like Wanda did earlier, to recover a victory after having all their siege destroyed in an ambush!) Dirtamancy - destroy the very ground underneath their feet. Thinkamancy? Add any two casters, get an insta-win trilink. Foolamancy? We've seen the power of that, with what Jack does.

And so on and so forth. A spell or ability or discipline should NOT be considered as broken just because it can decisively win a given hopeless battle, because in the system of Erfworld, ANY caster can do that - in the right conditions. And make no mistake, these WERE the right conditions for the chillaxe to be super-effective. Haffaton DELIBERATELY set them up that way, and Goodminton walked right into the trap, even though they suspected it was a trap.

No, what would make a spell 'broken' is if it could win not only a battle, but win a whole war; if it can continue having that effect EVEN IF the enemy knows it might happen. And this isn't even close. It's a caster that can STALL a battle - important, sure, but if you know it's coming, it's not that hard to work around. Just attack a different city than the one the hippiemancer is in. Or just be sure to only engage in battles when you have enough move to retreat to a good defensive position. Or, you know, just trust the instincts of your Warlords when they sense a trap, and go sack Plankton instead.

I bet that ANY caster discipline could set a trap of equal power. While the Hippiemancy was the trigger for this particular trap, the power of the trap is NOT reflection of the power of Hippiemancy alone. If you want to claim that this is broken, I think you'd have to show that EVEN IF Goodminton is otherwise winning, AND they know that this Hippiemancy spell is out there and might be used, they STILL can't win the war.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby gameboy1234 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:54 pm

Swodaems wrote:I think this opens up a new possibility into how Wanda is going to come under the command of Olive.

Betrayal, pure and simple. We have three named Goodmitton characters capable of commiting the act ... stab Tommy in the back, and give Wanda to Haffaton. Of course, Wanda or Tommy could be the one to do the drunken betraying.


My guess:

1. Haffaton will point out that Goodminton will loose their "fellows" next turn, and Wanda, Tommy and Fritz will be exposed and liable to be captured or croaked. Haffaton has plenty of additional forces less than one move away to reinforce Kiloton, and Olive Branch could still take out the leadership Goodminton has available there next turn.

2. Haffaton will demand Wanda as a prize to let Tommy and Fritz go. They'll offer much reduced terms from their last offer: only a few turns of peace and no forfeiture. Goodminton will be forced to accept it. Then after the short peace expires Haffaton will eradicate their bloodthirsty neighbor (that's Goodminton) and Wanda will be the sole survivor.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Housellama » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:07 pm

On a completely DIFFERENT topic...

Has anyone considered why Haffaton did what they did? Even with the not inconsiderable talents of their Hippiemancer, they are taking a rather large risk in letting an army walk into their city. They already rejected one peace offering with a rather aggressive offensive as a counteroffer. So Haffaton opens their city to them? Even knowing that they can stop combat, something here doesn't add up.

I don't care to speculate what Haffaton does or doesn't know, but I can speak on how I handle this particular situation. To reach a situation like this, I would have either had to have exceptional knowledge of the enemy's plans, disposition or both. I would also have a plan in place so that I could say with a high degree of confidence that if the parley did not reach the result I desired, no enemy would leave that city alive. Even given the decay of Wanda's Fellows, I would have an additional force of at least the size of what was already inside the city available to cut off retreat.

The parley would go in three stages.
Stage 1, Polite: "Since we can't fight each other, let's sit down, have some wine and see if we can make a deal to come to an agreement to make this war go away."

Stage 2, Threatening: "Look. We've tried to be nice about this. We've offered you peace. We've offered you wine. We've tried to talk this thing out. But if you want a fight, we'll give you a fight. We'd rather not though. Are you SURE we can't talk this out?

Stage 3, Ultimatum: At this point, I would move up the force to make sure that they were sandwiched between two large forces and outnumbered 2-1. Preferably 3-1 when Wanda's Fellows decayed. And then say, essentially "Peace or death."

That's what _I_ would do. Don't know what Haffaton has planned, but I bet it's similar.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby gameboy1234 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:13 pm

Housellama wrote:On a completely DIFFERENT topic...

Has anyone considered why Haffaton did what they did? Even with the not inconsiderable talents of their Hippiemancer, they are taking a rather large risk in letting an army walk into their city.


My guess: see my post just above. It's to get Wanda. I think Haffaton with their much larger army can kill a lot more guys than Goodminton, and Wanda would be invaluable to Haffaton, so they'll do nearly anything to get her.

Stage 3, Ultimatum: At this point, I would move up the force to make sure that they were sandwiched between two large forces and outnumbered 2-1. Preferably 3-1 when Wanda's Fellows decayed. And then say, essentially "Peace or death."


This one. Haffaton will be nice about it, but this is what it'll come down to.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Kreistor » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:27 pm

multilis wrote:Please name your real life computer game that is closest to Erfworld and I can try to compare. I named AOW-SM already as that is the game I have that is closest to Erfworld (if you use classic turn rules) Normally on a smaller map you do *not* split main army, as enemy can defeat them one at a time like Napolean did in real life. The main army that wins, tends to win the war. Since turn based game- each side has their turn to try and hit one of your smaller split armies.


Uhm... hunh? This has nothing to do with what I said, so I'm totally ignoring it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Housellama » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:19 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:
Housellama wrote:
Stage 3, Ultimatum: "Peace or death."


This one. Haffaton will be nice about it, but this is what it'll come down to.


I agree. That's why they set the trap to begin with. They tried to bargain and be diplomatic. That got them nowhere. So now they are setting Goodminton up to make then an offer they can't refuse. It'll be a much, much less generous offer, because now they don't have to be nice. They've got the upper hand, since if things go as I believe that they will, Goodminton is bent over a barrel and spread wide open. Haffaton's got them in a position where it's either deal or get booped.

Shoulda trusted your instincts, Tommy. Too much haste, too little information. Now you're booped.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Dark Matter » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:24 pm

Kreistor wrote:In D&D, undead are immune to mind affecting spells, like this. And if it affected only Wanda's ability to order them to attack, she could disband, they'd become unleaded, and attack the enemy immediately, so it must be afflicting them, too.
It's very possible this would be an exception to the "autoattack" thing... although it's still possible uncroked are immune. But thus far Wanda hasn't thought (or perhaps been able to think of) giving the order to attack. Worse, for her it might be less of an "order" than a "weapon". The uncroked may count as weapons.

Interesting question is how does a Florist gain experience? Presumably it's not in combat, and that's something of a problem right there. If she gains experience by stopping combat, then just gaining experience could be a real problem.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Dark Matter » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:36 pm

Housellama wrote:I don't care to speculate what Haffaton does or doesn't know, but I can speak on how I handle this particular situation. To reach a situation like this, I would have either had to have exceptional knowledge of the enemy's plans, disposition or both. I would also have a plan in place so that I could say with a high degree of confidence that if the parley did not reach the result I desired, no enemy would leave that city alive. Even given the decay of Wanda's Fellows, I would have an additional force of at least the size of what was already inside the city available to cut off retreat.

The parley would go in three stages.
Stage 1, Polite: "Since we can't fight each other, let's sit down, have some wine and see if we can make a deal to come to an agreement to make this war go away."

Stage 2, Threatening: "Look. We've tried to be nice about this. We've offered you peace. We've offered you wine. We've tried to talk this thing out. But if you want a fight, we'll give you a fight. We'd rather not though. Are you SURE we can't talk this out?

Stage 3, Ultimatum: At this point, I would move up the force to make sure that they were sandwiched between two large forces and outnumbered 2-1. Preferably 3-1 when Wanda's Fellows decayed. And then say, essentially "Peace or death."
Ignoring that we've had in character speculation about "exceptional knowledge" before, it's a lot easier than this. The Florist has locked down Good's primary army, their primary leadership and spellcaster. Presumably she can keep this up with minimal support and troops. She can't attack or kill them, but she doesn't need to.

Where the Florist's primary army and what are they doing right now? Taking cities? Perhaps even the capital?

Worse, assume that there is no backup plan and this is it. Given Good's other enemies as well as her "allies", she can't have her army locked down like this.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Sixty » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:44 am

For those asking about examples of spells failing, didn't Wanda say when she mass animated the diggers that there was a chance she could fail the spell completely and they're no uncroaked? Granted it is a level one unit trying to cast a slightly more advanced spell, but it does show it is possible for a caster to be unsure of whether a spell will work or not.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Mrtyuh » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:24 am

This is just wild speculation on my part, but I think Tommy is going to die, and Wanda will manage to escape for now. For added tragedy, Wanda will need to uncroak Tommy and, either sacrifice him or get to watch him decay over several turns until he's dust. The main reason I believe this is that it would add to the tension in the present. As with most prequels, we know what is going to happen, however do not necessarily know how. Plus, it adds details that may come into play later. While Wanda may be destined to serve under Olive Branch in Haffaton and it seems Goodminton is destined to fall, I think there will be a period where Wanda is the heir-designate of Goodminton. The reason I believe that is it will add dramatic tension to the present. It would mean she does not have to fear disbanding if her side falls. Perhaps, when Parson found her preparing her uncroaked flyers, it wasn't to rescue Stanley, but merely to seek her Fate elsewhere. It would make speculation about her splitting off to form her own side much more plausible. While Firebaugh doesn't seem to be a Royal, since he uses the title of Overlord, the fact that he popped Wanda as his "daughter" as opposed to a regular warlord seems significant to me. While it is possible she was popped as an heir, I kind of doubt it given the desperate situation in which Goodminton found itself. While I certainly may be wrong, I do feel it would certainly add to the story in the present, and would be a missed opportunity if it doesn't occur.

As for the relative power of this spell vs KW, I would say KW was much more powerful. It only prevents combat within this hex. If Goodminton's force was made of dwagons and archons with 50+ move, they could simply turn around and attack Plankton instead. Also, while Goodminton is too weak to field multiple armies, if they were a side like Gobwin Knob, it would be entirely feasible to field multiple armies. If you look at a turn based game like the Civilization series, you general read a point of strength where can have a dozen field armies, all strong enough to steamroll anything that may oppose them. Even if one force was neutralized, the others can carry their objective. Also, KW could stop you mid-movement. Instead of one all-powerful stack, you have your army split into two stacks that are each vulnerable. So, yeah, I would say KW is much more powerful.

As for using a Hippiemancer to guard your capital and being a bubble kingdom, I would think economics might prevent that. Could a single city produce enough income to maintain an Overlord and a Master Hippiemancer? It seems a great part of the warfare in Erfworld seems to be based on the need to bring in income. If a side tried that, you may simply be able to blockade them until their treasury ran out, and they had to either disband the Hippiemancer or send them into the Magic Kingdom.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby vintermann » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:03 am

I'm going to ignore the discussion of whether hippiemancy is game-breaking, because it is stupid.

Instead, I'm going to engage in some predictamancy: There's a law of threes in storytelling, at any case there's a law of no twos.

Wanda has been offered a peaceful way of embracing her fate once, through Delphi's back room deal. She refused that, at advantage to herself (she became Chief Caster).

Very likely, she has another chance at joining Olive Branch peacefully now. She will probably refuse this time, too. In book 1, they often turned such situations into victories, but then they had the Ultimate Warlord. It would be cheapening Parson's skill if mere Wanda's cleverness was enough to turn this thorny situation into a win. So, she will refuse, but at a cost this time. Maybe Tommy. Maybe just a big tactical setback from the gains made in previous turns.

In an upcoming update, she will get the final "offer" from fate. Third time's the charm. And this time it won't be possible to escape, and her side will pay the ultimate price as she tries.

That's the simple speculation. Here's the more farfetched:

Olive Branch will end up as Chief Caster in Faq. The bubble kingdom side will be born as a result of the Royal side Haffaton splitting, as a result of Olive engaging in intrigue with Jack and Charlie, and a young Banhammer, to create a side after her vision. Jack, assisted by Charlie, will erase the memory of the split from the remnant of Haffaton. The Bubble Kingdom is stable and self-sufficient, but they need to keep Charlie bribed to not spill the beans, so they send out mercenaries like Jillian to work in the world.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Saladman » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:33 am

Housellama wrote:Has anyone considered why Haffaton did what they did? Even with the not inconsiderable talents of their Hippiemancer, they are taking a rather large risk in letting an army walk into their city. They already rejected one peace offering with a rather aggressive offensive as a counteroffer. So Haffaton opens their city to them? Even knowing that they can stop combat, something here doesn't add up.


Episode 012 wrote:On the other side of the archway, a force of infantry and warlords at least equal to their own stood assembled in formation in the courtyard. Their weapons were not drawn.


So they're giving up the benefit of their city walls, but they still came prepared to win a slug-fest.

Plus we pretty much know Frenemy and Quisling are feeding them info, and we've seen Haffaton deploy veiled scouts, so presumably they have pretty good order of battle info on Goodminton, and can reasonably expect they won't be surprised.

This update highlights how much Goodminton's position is a function of intelligence capacity as much as raw strength. I presume they pop scouts and it just hasn't gotten much screen time. But it's possible some of a side's fate turns on just what production they get. Transylvito for instance wouldn't have this exact problem, with their common doombats for recon.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Whispri » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:04 am

I'm really not convinced this situation is hopeless. They could still hit another City, some of the Fellows were created the day before they marched. Interception attempts would rather spoil the whole 'starve Wanda of battle' thing they have going. Forgetting escape, the City could yet burn, the odds aren't anything like as bad the times she needed Parson to find some 'sploits. All they really need to do is stop the flower girl from casting the spell again next turn, which might not be as hard as it sounds. I mean, if she and Wanda spend the night 'entwined', well... Maybe they'll offer better terms this time though? Maybe they'll take that Predictamancer Goodminton don't have much use for instead?

I just can't see how this could be the doom that's been spoken of. It's a set back. But there'd have to be more for this to be the end. Maybe the flower girl can cancel it at will? That would be nasty. I can't help but come back to Wanda's line about there being no such thing as a Retconjurer, it had such a ring of famous last words to it. Maybe Wanda is a Retconjurer and the Croakamancy is just a bonus? A botched Retcon spell sounds like a pretty good excuse for doom.

Perhaps this is the turn Goodminton's allies knife them, in the Capital, by croaking Overlord Firebaugh under a flag of peace? Wanda then becomes Overlady, the flower girl thing, if not a lie, works out by her becoming Wanda's top Caster after Haffaton is knocked over by whatever means (perhaps also this turn with the flower girl away from home). Goodminton's doom later coming at the hands of the other enemy sides in the battlespace, or mercs they hire. One thing's for sure, if the flower girl really is destined to be Wanda's Chief Caster, it can't be at Faq or else the fatal attack would have been stopped cold.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Deuce » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:58 am

So Halfaton has lots of wine? Wonder if the Warlord's name is Jeremiah? Does he always have some mighty fine wine?
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