Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Mrtyuh » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:24 am

This is just wild speculation on my part, but I think Tommy is going to die, and Wanda will manage to escape for now. For added tragedy, Wanda will need to uncroak Tommy and, either sacrifice him or get to watch him decay over several turns until he's dust. The main reason I believe this is that it would add to the tension in the present. As with most prequels, we know what is going to happen, however do not necessarily know how. Plus, it adds details that may come into play later. While Wanda may be destined to serve under Olive Branch in Haffaton and it seems Goodminton is destined to fall, I think there will be a period where Wanda is the heir-designate of Goodminton. The reason I believe that is it will add dramatic tension to the present. It would mean she does not have to fear disbanding if her side falls. Perhaps, when Parson found her preparing her uncroaked flyers, it wasn't to rescue Stanley, but merely to seek her Fate elsewhere. It would make speculation about her splitting off to form her own side much more plausible. While Firebaugh doesn't seem to be a Royal, since he uses the title of Overlord, the fact that he popped Wanda as his "daughter" as opposed to a regular warlord seems significant to me. While it is possible she was popped as an heir, I kind of doubt it given the desperate situation in which Goodminton found itself. While I certainly may be wrong, I do feel it would certainly add to the story in the present, and would be a missed opportunity if it doesn't occur.

As for the relative power of this spell vs KW, I would say KW was much more powerful. It only prevents combat within this hex. If Goodminton's force was made of dwagons and archons with 50+ move, they could simply turn around and attack Plankton instead. Also, while Goodminton is too weak to field multiple armies, if they were a side like Gobwin Knob, it would be entirely feasible to field multiple armies. If you look at a turn based game like the Civilization series, you general read a point of strength where can have a dozen field armies, all strong enough to steamroll anything that may oppose them. Even if one force was neutralized, the others can carry their objective. Also, KW could stop you mid-movement. Instead of one all-powerful stack, you have your army split into two stacks that are each vulnerable. So, yeah, I would say KW is much more powerful.

As for using a Hippiemancer to guard your capital and being a bubble kingdom, I would think economics might prevent that. Could a single city produce enough income to maintain an Overlord and a Master Hippiemancer? It seems a great part of the warfare in Erfworld seems to be based on the need to bring in income. If a side tried that, you may simply be able to blockade them until their treasury ran out, and they had to either disband the Hippiemancer or send them into the Magic Kingdom.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby vintermann » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:03 am

I'm going to ignore the discussion of whether hippiemancy is game-breaking, because it is stupid.

Instead, I'm going to engage in some predictamancy: There's a law of threes in storytelling, at any case there's a law of no twos.

Wanda has been offered a peaceful way of embracing her fate once, through Delphi's back room deal. She refused that, at advantage to herself (she became Chief Caster).

Very likely, she has another chance at joining Olive Branch peacefully now. She will probably refuse this time, too. In book 1, they often turned such situations into victories, but then they had the Ultimate Warlord. It would be cheapening Parson's skill if mere Wanda's cleverness was enough to turn this thorny situation into a win. So, she will refuse, but at a cost this time. Maybe Tommy. Maybe just a big tactical setback from the gains made in previous turns.

In an upcoming update, she will get the final "offer" from fate. Third time's the charm. And this time it won't be possible to escape, and her side will pay the ultimate price as she tries.

That's the simple speculation. Here's the more farfetched:

Olive Branch will end up as Chief Caster in Faq. The bubble kingdom side will be born as a result of the Royal side Haffaton splitting, as a result of Olive engaging in intrigue with Jack and Charlie, and a young Banhammer, to create a side after her vision. Jack, assisted by Charlie, will erase the memory of the split from the remnant of Haffaton. The Bubble Kingdom is stable and self-sufficient, but they need to keep Charlie bribed to not spill the beans, so they send out mercenaries like Jillian to work in the world.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Saladman » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:33 am

Housellama wrote:Has anyone considered why Haffaton did what they did? Even with the not inconsiderable talents of their Hippiemancer, they are taking a rather large risk in letting an army walk into their city. They already rejected one peace offering with a rather aggressive offensive as a counteroffer. So Haffaton opens their city to them? Even knowing that they can stop combat, something here doesn't add up.


Episode 012 wrote:On the other side of the archway, a force of infantry and warlords at least equal to their own stood assembled in formation in the courtyard. Their weapons were not drawn.


So they're giving up the benefit of their city walls, but they still came prepared to win a slug-fest.

Plus we pretty much know Frenemy and Quisling are feeding them info, and we've seen Haffaton deploy veiled scouts, so presumably they have pretty good order of battle info on Goodminton, and can reasonably expect they won't be surprised.

This update highlights how much Goodminton's position is a function of intelligence capacity as much as raw strength. I presume they pop scouts and it just hasn't gotten much screen time. But it's possible some of a side's fate turns on just what production they get. Transylvito for instance wouldn't have this exact problem, with their common doombats for recon.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Whispri » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:04 am

I'm really not convinced this situation is hopeless. They could still hit another City, some of the Fellows were created the day before they marched. Interception attempts would rather spoil the whole 'starve Wanda of battle' thing they have going. Forgetting escape, the City could yet burn, the odds aren't anything like as bad the times she needed Parson to find some 'sploits. All they really need to do is stop the flower girl from casting the spell again next turn, which might not be as hard as it sounds. I mean, if she and Wanda spend the night 'entwined', well... Maybe they'll offer better terms this time though? Maybe they'll take that Predictamancer Goodminton don't have much use for instead?

I just can't see how this could be the doom that's been spoken of. It's a set back. But there'd have to be more for this to be the end. Maybe the flower girl can cancel it at will? That would be nasty. I can't help but come back to Wanda's line about there being no such thing as a Retconjurer, it had such a ring of famous last words to it. Maybe Wanda is a Retconjurer and the Croakamancy is just a bonus? A botched Retcon spell sounds like a pretty good excuse for doom.

Perhaps this is the turn Goodminton's allies knife them, in the Capital, by croaking Overlord Firebaugh under a flag of peace? Wanda then becomes Overlady, the flower girl thing, if not a lie, works out by her becoming Wanda's top Caster after Haffaton is knocked over by whatever means (perhaps also this turn with the flower girl away from home). Goodminton's doom later coming at the hands of the other enemy sides in the battlespace, or mercs they hire. One thing's for sure, if the flower girl really is destined to be Wanda's Chief Caster, it can't be at Faq or else the fatal attack would have been stopped cold.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Deuce » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:58 am

So Halfaton has lots of wine? Wonder if the Warlord's name is Jeremiah? Does he always have some mighty fine wine?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby zuche » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:17 am

vintermann wrote:Instead, I'm going to engage in some predictamancy: There's a law of threes in storytelling, at any case there's a law of no twos.


Chekhov's gun.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby rlc » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:28 am

Lamech wrote: This is vastly less powerful than kingworld.


True, but this is a single caster spell, versus a multi(two? threee?) caster link with a TOOL involved.

The tools are literally game breakers (or, I guess, literally game MAKERS).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby OneHugeTuck » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:48 pm

It seems that everyone is assuming that Wanda et all can just leave.

Why is that, exactly? As they obviously not only didn't leave, but didn't mention that as an option.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby ParsonIsOP » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:29 pm

vintermann wrote:Wanda has been offered a peaceful way of embracing her fate once, through Delphi's back room deal. She refused that, at advantage to herself (she became Chief Caster).

Fuck. Delphi. Like the Oracle of Delphi. Duh.

No, I don't have a direct response to your point, but I saw you mention her name and it hit me like a hammer. It's such an obvious clue about how Predictamancy works. By definition, prophecies cannot be accurate if they could ever change a predetermined ouctome. The prophecy itself needn't cause the events in question. Minimally, they don't interfere. In essence, this is the type of prophecy that exists in the Greek tragedy Oedipus Rex.

Basically, this would imply that it's not a Dune-esque style of prophecy where multiple agencies with foresight can affect abstract and intuited models about the future (so more prophets make matters more confusing because you cannot account for them all). This style of prophecy is basically a projected simulation of what will happen given certain "if" parameters and limited information (i.e. if I do "x" will "y" or "z" happen?). Given that Dune setting has such an emphasis on making "human computers" in the form of Mentats and the Bene Gesserit, this would make sense. Prophets in the Dune setting seem all-knowing but that's only because they're just that much better at certain unconscious skills. The closest equivalent in Erfworld to this style of prophecy would actually be Mathamancers, not Predictamancers.

Instead, Predictamancy automatically account for hidden variables. It is a 100% accurate conclusion that accounts for all hidden and contingent variables, but just isn't as precise as you might like it to be. So it is capable of omitting crucial details, but the details it does give are guaranteed to be true.

We can infer a lot from Parson's gauntlet Mathamancy because it produces statistical projections based on information that needs to be updated for it to be useful. It doesn't predict guarantees because it is a tool that is engineered around the assumption that no statistical model has comprehensive information.

In an upcoming update, she will get the final "offer" from fate. Third time's the charm. And this time it won't be possible to escape, and her side will pay the ultimate price as she tries.

I still think the idea of "embracing your fate" is idiotic. If an event is predetermined, your embracing your fate or not isn't going to affect a damn thing. Your psychological state actually causes your fate when it normally wouldn't or simply wouldn't interfere with what's going to happen anyway.

My interpretation of these events is that Wanda was destined to "escape" being turned-over to the enemy the first time. It just so happened that Delphi didn't Predict that this would happen. Just like how she did not Predict how her philosophy will rub-off on Wanda and turn her into the same embittered control freak that we later see. These things were destined to happen, it's just that nobody knew that.

Both Wanda and Delphi irrationally believe that their choices has some great mystical power over their fates and that it's concerned with punishing them when they make bad decisions. The reality is that "Fate," such as it is, does not care. It is impersonal and has no special plan or privileges to dole out to people. Only a narcissist assumes otherwise.

I think it's supposed to be the Greek sense of tragic irony. But what the hell do I know about the ancient Greeks.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Dunbar » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:42 pm

Have we ever gotten confirmation that erfworld predictamancers are always right? That if they predict something it will happen? Though how it happens is malleable...Wanda will serve under Olive Branch, but how she gets there is a mystery.

If predictamancy is 100% accurate, that brings up some interesting points. For one, it's presumed that you can predict the important battles then use a luckamancer to tilt the odds to make sure you win those battles. But what if you predict about the battle and Kilo and the answer is "You will not take the city", then no amount of luck will change that as fate is decided, so you attack somewhere else. But even then, fate is decided. You could predict that you will conquer Kilo, then why even try to do it? Send in a handful of pikers and watch Fate insure that the prediction comes true. Then again, it could mean that you will conquer it, but it won't happen for 20 turns, and you lose the battle only to take Kilo much later on. I'm struggling to find the usefulness of predictamancy here.

Also, if predicted events have to happen, then what if you act directly against them? What if they tried to disband Wanda? Would the leader just not be able to do it? Would Fate drop an anvil on his head before he could finish the command? Does this mean if you are Predicted to do some future action that you are safe until that happens? In a way I see how embracing your fate works in your favor. If your fate simply cannot be avoided, if it 100% will happen no matter what you do, then any action you take that is counter to that fate will 100% fail. So in that sense embracing fate makes life easier.

However, embracing fate is easier said than done....in the Avatar TV series, General Iroh was fated to conquer the city of Ba Sing Se. As general of the fire nation, he attacked the city, only to have his son be killed and for him to abandon the field in defeat and be exiled for his failure. Many years later the fire nation has conquered the city, and Iroh returns and conquers the city, realizing only now that he fate was not to conquer it for the fire nation, but to conquer it in the name of the earth kingdom and free it from the fire nation. So attempting to embrace his fate was the harder path...though if he hadn't attacked the city as general of the fire nation, he would never have ended up leading the resistance to free the city from the fire nation...or rather he would have, since he was fated to conquer the city, but maybe it would have been a less painful path.

In short, Fate has you by the short hairs I guess. Which brings me back to the value of predictamancy....if all predictamancers are essentially Cassandra from Greek myth, who had the ability to see the future but the inability to change it, what good are they? Whatever they predict will come to pass, and attempting to avoid it will end in tragedy, but attempting to embrace it may not be the right path either? How much of the future is predicted? How much free will do any erfworlders really have?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Saladman » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:19 pm

Faq under Banhammer used a predictomancer to predict when enemy units would come in range of their cities so they could be veiled. So there is such a thing as a useful, outcome-neutral prediction that you can still do something about.

The trick would seem to be sticking to the tactical when-and-where, but not who wins. Unfortunately it's not clear how voluntary the Cassandra type are. Whether the 'mancer has to ask, or it surprises you when you're asking a tactical question, or a fit just takes you out of the blue. Certainly Faq did get their own dose of the Cassandra type in the form of "Faq will fall" and "Wanda will attune an arkentool." The second of which being told to Wanda led to Faq falling in the way it did - thanks much!

My unsupported guess is you can get the grand, Fated predictions both voluntarily and otherwise. Someone else suggested, and I like the idea given how she comes across, that Delphie is just in over her head and has gone to the well more than is wise.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby ftl » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:33 pm

ParsonIsOP wrote:I still think the idea of "embracing your fate" is idiotic. If an event is predetermined, your embracing your fate or not isn't going to affect a damn thing.


The event is predetermined, but how you get there isn't. You can take the easy way, or the hard way.

In this example, it was Predicted that Wanda would serve under Olive Branch. There was an easy way to do this - agree to be traded away to Haffaton in exchange for a treaty.

But Wanda refused the easy way. What's Predicted to happen WILL HAPPEN anyway, but if you refuse to take the easy ways of doing it, well, eventually you'll be forced into the hard way.

Both Wanda and Delphi irrationally believe that their choices has some great mystical power over their fates and that it's concerned with punishing them when they make bad decisions.


I think you're misunderstanding them entirely. They don't think Fate will directly 'punish them for making bad decisions'. What's Fated to happen is what will happen - you punish YOURSELF by trying to fight it. It's not the wall that's punishing the person that bashes a hole in it with their head, it's the person's own fault for refusing to take the door. They wind up on the other side either way, but one of the paths leads to a concussion.

The reality is that "Fate," such as it is, does not care. It is impersonal and has no special plan or privileges to dole out to people. Only a narcissist assumes otherwise.


Exactly. Fate does not care. It's Fate that Wanda WILL SERVE under Olive Branch; it's up to Wanda to make sure she takes the easy way there, such as by accepting a treaty where she gets traded away, rather than by trying to fight Fate, and eventually winding up just taking a far more painful road to the same place. We don't yet know what that road is, and maybe I'm wrong about that, but I think that's what it's leading to.

I think that's how modern-day Wanda sees it, and based on what we've seen that view may very well be accurate. I expect that this prequel will get to her serving under Olive Branch, as was Fated, but in some way which really sucks for her (maybe destruction of her side, maybe having to Uncroak her family members, or something like that).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Kreistor » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:52 pm

ftl wrote:The event is predetermined, but how you get there isn't. You can take the easy way, or the hard way.


Not proven. And it can't be proven. That's the problem with Prophecy. If it comes true, then it is suggested the Prophecy knew the future. If it hasn't come true yet, you believe that it will in the future. What you can't know is that if another choice was made, that the Prophecy would have not come true. You're viewing Prophecy aas controlling the future, instead of seeing the future. If ti sees the future, it will compensate for your choices and show you the future based on your choices of knowing the Prophecy. There may be no easy way to the future, because the Prophecy foresawthat you would take the hard way. If you took the easy way, it would have predicted a future based on taking that path, with a potentially different end result.

In this example, it was Predicted that Wanda would serve under Olive Branch. There was an easy way to do this - agree to be traded away to Haffaton in exchange for a treaty.

But Wanda refused the easy way. What's Predicted to happen WILL HAPPEN anyway, but if you refuse to take the easy ways of doing it, well, eventually you'll be forced into the hard way.


And yet there is a third option. Goodminton captures Olive right here. And that winds up being the easiest path for Wanda. Olive is a Master, and an obvious candidate for Chief.

I think you're misunderstanding them entirely. They don't think Fate will directly 'punish them for making bad decisions'. What's Fated to happen is what will happen - you punish YOURSELF by trying to fight it.


False. You can't fight what you do not know. Wanda isn't trying to avoid the two Predictions. She hasn't run. She is performing her function, and she has suffered not at all for it. She is in danger now, but Rob has already curve-balled us two times in this story, with the non-obvious path resulting in the Predicted future. I think that will continue to happen. It's obvious Goodminton loses here. No, I have already pointed out in this thread that Uncroaked may be unaffected by Flower Power because they lack Life, and if they aren't, then all Wanda has to do to slauhgter everyone here is re-stack her Fellows without Leadership. Haffaton cannot defend themselves and it will be a slaughter. It's predicated on an unproven assumption, but Rob has done that to us twice, as described.

It's not the wall that's punishing the person that bashes a hole in it with their head, it's the person's own fault for refusing to take the door. They wind up on the other side either way, but one of the paths leads to a concussion.


This reminds me of Wanda's comments at the end of Book 1. "The path was not clear." Wanda followed the obvious, easiest path, seeking to attune to the Hammer first. The obvious path resulted in the worst pain, in the fall of FAQ. The easiest path can be the most painful path, and yet still the right path, since in this case it put her in position for a second Arkentool to approach her, and yet she could not have foreseen that possible outcome. Or the hardest path can be the least painful path, and still be the wrong path. Predictamancy does not provide a view of which path is the right one, the wrong one, the easiest, or the hardest, and you don't always suffer for failure to try to find the right path.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Mrtyuh » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:42 pm

We still don't know exactly how Predictamancy works, and this is largely due to the Predictamancers themselves. So far, every Predictamancer we've seen has been a manipulative sort who seems perfectly willing to lie, which means we can't take everything they say about their discipline at face value. For examle, when Marie tells Janis that she Predicts that Janis will stack with Parson, I get the distinct impression that she is manipulating Janis as opposed to making an actual Prediction. We also don't know how things like level and mastery may affect their proficiency. We do know that mastery is independent of level. Delphie was a Level 4 Adept, while Wanda is a Level 3 Novice at this stage in Book 0. Sizemore has gained 3 levels since the Battle of Gobwin Knob started, however, he is still an Adept. As far as level goes, it seems to affect the caster's amount of juice and their proficiency. As far as mastery goes, we could try comparing the Master-class casters, Wanda and Jack, against the Adept-class, Sizemore and Maggie, but it would be like comparing apples to oranges since their fields are so different.

As for Predicatmancy, assuming we can take what the Predictamancers themselves have said at face value, there are things they cannot see. Marie has said that she cannot see past the current turn, that everything after is cloudy. Depending on the choices made this turn, the future will be different, so everything is cloudy. She made a similar comment about the Fall of Faq. She said she knew they would fall and warned Banhammer, but the actual fall was cloudy and she couldn't see how it happened. She knew that Sizemore was returning to Portal Park, but she did not seem to know that Parson was returning. On the other hand, she, and other Predicatmancers, seemed to know there would be trouble in Portal Park, so they are gathering there, even if they did not initially know what form that trouble would take. Other examples are with Delphie. She knew she would only be Wanda's Chief for 18 turns, but there seemed to be multiple paths. She knows Goodminton will be attacked by air, but her response to whether the city would fall was, "I can't say." It may be a case of her knowing and not wanting to reveal the information. It may be a case, like Faq, where she cannot see the outcome. It may also be a case that she can see multiple outcomes, all relying on different variables such as allies and treaties, which make any answer conditional. She may not even be able to see what those conditions are. In Dune, Paul was able to see multiple futures where he lay dead on the battlefield, but he was never able to see how he died. So, there may be different levels of Predictions. There may be those things which will definitely happen, such as Wanda serving a long time under Olive Branch. There may be things that may happen, such as Goodminton falling to an air assault. Not everything needs to a Chekov's gun either. It has been shown that Faq's greatest point of vulnerablity is its tunnel system and Transylvito is vulnerable to a mountain capable infantry assault. That doesn't necessary mean that Transylvito will fall to a force of Western Giants from Faq. We don't even know in what form the Predictions come. Is it like a vision or is it more like knowledge, a fact that appears in the Predictamancer's head?

All we really know for sure is that Wanda is going to undergo a huge attittude adjustment. She is going to struggle against Fate for a while, and doing so will teach her a very painful lesson about Fate. Part of me doesn't want to read Book 0, because I really like Lady Wanda Firebaugh, Chief Croakmancer of Goodminton. It will be painful to see her transform into the Wanda we know she will become. I just hope there is still a bit of the old Wanda in there somewhere. I will say, though, that I don't think Wanda sees the Fall of Faq as one of her painful lessons. So far, with the exception of Jillian, Wanda has indicated that she hated basically everything during her time in the Court of Faq.

Anyway, I keep getting off topic. The point I was trying to make is that Predictamancer is probably the form of magic about which we know the least. While we know, generally, what it does, we don't know how it does it. While that could be said for almost all magical fields, with Predictamancy the how has the greatest influence on the what. That being the case, it makes speculating difficult. One thing we do know from Marie is that, at least occasionally, choices do matter. Those choices, however, have far-reaching consequences and seem to lock one on a path for a while.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Kreistor » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:29 pm

All we really know for sure is that Wanda is going to undergo a huge attittude adjustment.


The question is "When?" Everyone is thinking it's soon, but I am not so certain. Wanda spent a long time in FAQ's pacifist Side, and while people look there for Wnda's previous relationship with Jillian, Jillian spent much of her time abroad as a mercenary. Wanda didn't intend for her Side to fall to Stanley, so that was stupid, but not particularly malicious.

The real change was probably the fall of FAQ and her failure to obtain the Hammer. She may go through some pain here, but I'm not convinced it will be the seminal moment of her existence.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Mrtyuh » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:30 am

We do not know if it is one event or multiple. Since people do not age in Erfworld, Wanda could be thousands of years old, having served scores of sides before she ended up at Faq. We do not know if a singular event caused her change in outlook or if it was a series of events that slowly ground her down into the Instrument of Fate we see now. We also do not know how many encounters with Fate Wanda will have. We know that she will serve under Olive Branch, and she is struggling against it. We know, once in Faq, she will learn she will Attune to an Arkentool, which she pursued. She believes she is Fated to bring the Arkentools together. We don't know if this has actually been Predicted to Wanda, or if she is simply assuming it is the case. There could be a dozen Predictions concerning Wanda between then and now. We just do not know. Still, from what we've been shown, I do not think Wanda had much fondness for Faq, with the exception of Jillian. It is entirely possible that I am wrong, but I'm inclined to believe that Wanda will have either fully or mostly completed her metamorphosis before she begins her service to King Banhammer.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Matthew Wildstar » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:36 am

Beastie Boys... you know, I would have guessed something by Bob Dylan way, way before the Beastie Boys.

Next up... Dame Branch asks "Tell me , Mr. Fitz... what do you want to DO with your life?"
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Whispri » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:11 am

zuche wrote:Chekhov's gun.

Speaking of which, what is it Wanda sees in the mirror but can't identify?

OneHugeTuck wrote:It seems that everyone is assuming that Wanda et all can just leave.

Why is that, exactly? As they obviously not only didn't leave, but didn't mention that as an option.

Because there's nothing to stop them from doing so, the only way to stop them is by giving them the battle they came for. And that can't be done while the spell is up.

They may not have much move left this turn. But next...

Mrtyuh wrote:...We know that she will serve under Olive Branch, and she is struggling against it...

Sorry to snip, but do we know that? When was the word of Delphie "We'll pop a Warlord, honest guv" Temple declared reliable? There seems to be something going on with all the stuff Wanda keeps finding, but Chiefness?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby multilis » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:30 am

Fate is affecting the rolls, similar to a luckomancer. But what is fate?

Does it want something specifically or does it just want any old prophesies fulfilled once they are made?

Is fate from the "titans" or is it from a conspiracy of casters in the magic kingdom?

We have seen how "like a moth to the flame" all the casters started going to greet parson in the magic kingdom.

In very beginning Parson suggests in his scenario that he wanted his players to "cheat" fate.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 012

Postby Amado » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:13 am

ftl wrote:Exactly. Fate does not care. It's Fate that Wanda WILL SERVE under Olive Branch; it's up to Wanda to make sure she takes the easy way there, such as by accepting a treaty where she gets traded away, rather than by trying to fight Fate, and eventually winding up just taking a far more painful road to the same place. We don't yet know what that road is, and maybe I'm wrong about that, but I think that's what it's leading to.

I think that's how modern-day Wanda sees it, and based on what we've seen that view may very well be accurate. I expect that this prequel will get to her serving under Olive Branch, as was Fated, but in some way which really sucks for her (maybe destruction of her side, maybe having to Uncroak her family members, or something like that).


Well, while I don't want to wade into the whole debate (TL;DR), I'd like to add one little perspective to this comment.

It's up to Wanda to make sure she follows a path to her fate that seems right to her.

There's nothing about the Prediction that says "if you don't get traded, rocks fall and everybody dies." For all she knows, GoodM is about to capture Olive Branch; that's another way the prophecy could get fulfilled.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that, nowhere does it say that if you refuse the first-and-easy option for fulfilling a Prediction that all the subsequent ones are necessarily going to to be increasingly painful. That's how it has borne our for Wanda (thus, as you note, this is just "how modern-day Wanda sees it," so, I'm not disagreeing with you), but it aint necessarily so. Wanda just had really, really bad luck with her Fate and her choices regarding how to meet it. (Maybe Zero is already calling in some partial payments.)

Having a Predicted Fate does not absolve one from making moral choices. And exercising choice in how your Fate is fulfilled does not necessarily mean your path there will be more painful. That's how I see it.
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