Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby Dunbar » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:23 pm

Whispri wrote:Personally, I hold her entirely responsible for this debacle. If she hadn't gone around telling everyone Wanda was destined to serve under Olive, would Tommy have tried to get her to turn? Would Wanda have rejected her advances if not for Tommy's plan? Would Olive have had the opening for that kiss that many seem to think was fatal? If she hadn't told Olive about Wanda, would this trap have even been set? If not for Delphie's actions, if Wanda and Olive had met without her meddling, things may well have gone very differently. But it was her lies that cost them the most. If she'd gone about her plan honestly, without being mean to Wanda, it would probably have happened.


See, this all hinges on how much free will Erfworlders actually have. As the king says, if decisions cannot affect what is predicted, what meaning does any decision have? Did Delphie even have a choice in her actions, or is every Erfworlder merely a puppet of fate?

So perhaps Predicted events are set in stone, and outside of those Predictions Erfworlders have free will. But is even that true? Wanda is Predicted to serve under Olive. What if Overloard Firebaugh decides to disband her right now? A plot anvil would have to fall on his head before he finishes the thought. In fact, the should just strap Wanda inside their most powerful siege weapons and attack a non-Haffaton enemy. At least that seige should be unkillable, as Wanda can't die.

But let's play the game and say Delphie says nothing. What really changes? Other than since Olive doesn't know that Wanda is to be her subordinate some day Olive doesn't make her ruler hold back, and Wanda's side is defeated. Wanda is somehow captured in the battle (since you can't fight fate). Is that necessarily "better"? Frankly, I don't think this whole scenario can end in any way other than Wanda's side getting offed no matter what anyone does.

I'm beginning to think that no actions of any Erfworlder matters, and maybe the predictamancers are starting to see that. It doesn't matter if you try to run from your fate or try to embrace it. Here Wanda is running and it will end badly. Remember when she tried to embrace her fate to own an Arkentool? And if ended up with with her side falling (other than a single barbarian)? You can't win against fate. Nothing you do matters.

Maybe Parson, not being of Erf, isn't held by the same puppet strings. I wonder if Fate's grand plan was for Gobwin Knob to fall and Wanda to be taken by another side again (seems to be a recurring theme), and Parson changed that. The battle going on now (outside this flashback) might be Fate's way to get back on track, via Kingworld. Wanda should have been defeated, and could have been captured (Jetstone would find some reason to take her alive, she would likely surrender rather than croak and being an honorable side they wouldn't kill a surrendering caster, or maybe Charlie would have scooped her up). Without Wanda, Gobwin Knob would be in big trouble even at it's current size. But again, Parson steps in and Fate can't have it's way.

I'm beginning to think the Big Bad of the comic isn't Wanda or Charlie or any other visible character, but Fate. Parson can break the rules, proven when he could curse without saying boop. Infallible predictamancy results in a clockwork universe where, as the King says, decisions are meaningless.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby multilis » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:44 pm

"See, this all hinges on how much free will Erfworlders actually have. As the king says, if decisions cannot affect what is predicted, what meaning does any decision have?"

If you are are 1 weak kingdom surrounded by 5 enemies, what meaning does any decision have?

Possible that "fate" is like another faction with some luckomancy, and has arranged situation in own favor.

***

One way or another, I think there will be lots of death and destruction before this is all over. And still possible that the frenemies will end up uncroaked first/Wanda's side may not fall yet.

Wanda is about to learn how motion is inferior to life in case of her brother.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby Manic Oppressive » Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:37 pm

Wow, there is a LOT of Croakamancy hate in this thread...
Why yes, I do like Jillian. WHAT OF IT?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby name lips » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:01 pm

I have to agree that the typical philosophical Free Will vs. Predetermination debate must be very different on Erfworld, since they have Predictimancers, Luckamancers, "loyalty" statistics, and so forth.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby Lamech » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:14 pm

Dunbar wrote:See, this all hinges on how much free will Erfworlders actually have. As the king says, if decisions cannot affect what is predicted, what meaning does any decision have? Did Delphie even have a choice in her actions, or is every Erfworlder merely a puppet of fate?

So perhaps Predicted events are set in stone, and outside of those Predictions Erfworlders have free will. But is even that true? Wanda is Predicted to serve under Olive. What if Overloard Firebaugh decides to disband her right now? A plot anvil would have to fall on his head before he finishes the thought. In fact, the should just strap Wanda inside their most powerful siege weapons and attack a non-Haffaton enemy. At least that seige should be unkillable, as Wanda can't die.
I strongly suspect fate is like a super-luckamancer+super-lookamancer+super-mathamancer. They can see everything, and they have really good mathamancy, so they can make reasonable guesses like "Lord Firebaugh will not disband Wanda." Finally it has lots of luckamancy type power, so it can make what it wants happen, and more than just switching rolls it can do things like make Wanda an attuned unit, but it has great cost to Wanda's side.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby name lips » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:31 pm

Lamech wrote:
Dunbar wrote:See, this all hinges on how much free will Erfworlders actually have. As the king says, if decisions cannot affect what is predicted, what meaning does any decision have? Did Delphie even have a choice in her actions, or is every Erfworlder merely a puppet of fate?

So perhaps Predicted events are set in stone, and outside of those Predictions Erfworlders have free will. But is even that true? Wanda is Predicted to serve under Olive. What if Overloard Firebaugh decides to disband her right now? A plot anvil would have to fall on his head before he finishes the thought. In fact, the should just strap Wanda inside their most powerful siege weapons and attack a non-Haffaton enemy. At least that seige should be unkillable, as Wanda can't die.
I strongly suspect fate is like a super-luckamancer+super-lookamancer+super-mathamancer. They can see everything, and they have really good mathamancy, so they can make reasonable guesses like "Lord Firebaugh will not disband Wanda." Finally it has lots of luckamancy type power, so it can make what it wants happen, and more than just switching rolls it can do things like make Wanda an attuned unit, but it has great cost to Wanda's side.

In Erfworld, everything has an underlying mechanic. Or at least it seems to.

I suspect that there are certain future events which may or may not occur, depending on the choices people make. These are subject to Luckamancy and Mathamancy (for determining statistics).

But certain other events cannot be avoided. No matter what course of action you take, they will occur.

Remember the answer to "will the Tower ever be attacked by air?" "Eventually."

That might be as precise an answer as she could give for that question. If certain decisions were made, that "eventual" air attack might have occurred in 10 turns. If other decisions were taken, it might take 20 turns. But the air attack IS inevitable. What is NOT inevitable is the way you choose to get there, and the consequences of the actual attack.

Could that particular prediction be avoided by something drastic, like ordering your units to tear down the Tower? Or maybe you could have one of your air units shoot an arrow at the Tower, thus fulfilling the prediction? I don't know.

But I get the feeling that when a Predictimancer makes a hard and firm Prediction, it ALWAYS comes true. Perhaps not when you'd expect (they never seem to have time limits), or not the way you'd expect, but ALWAYS. Not 99% sure, not subject to probability, free will, or luck. Those might influence when and how it happens, but they cannot prevent it.

But a Predictamancer doesn't seem to be able to pick and choose what they Predict very well. If there is no definite answer, if the answer to the question could change based on Free Will, they can't make a Prediction about it. They're blind to possibilities.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby MonteCristo » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:36 pm

Goshen wrote:Also, she probably WILL uncroak Delphie - she has to learn, somehow, that uncroaked casters can't cast!


Or she just knows as per her discipline... Being a croakamancy, Wanda has default knowledge on how her magic works, like how she was able to explain to Tommey the qaulity vs quantity aspects of her uncroaking despite never uncroaking anything before

Raza wrote:Agreed. There's no reason for anybody who didn't already consider animation gross or demeaning to start believing it when applied to a loved one - especially someone like Wanda, who explicitly considers it a thing of beauty. She has all her juice for the turn to spend on him; he'll her masterpiece for some time to come.

I doubt Uncroaked Tommy will last too long... it appears we are winding down to the end of her side. More than likely this would mean her entering combat, most of her comrades croaking and her fellows dusting and then her being captured; whatever is left disbands when the overlord falls... So at most, Wanda will use her juice to restore Tommy to near full strength so that he can get one last spectacular fight with Wanda trying to take out as many haffaton units as possible.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby atalex » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:19 pm

Dunbar wrote:I'm beginning to think that no actions of any Erfworlder matters, and maybe the predictamancers are starting to see that.


Well, we know that's true here -- this whole story is a flashback, and we know that Wanda is the last of the Croatan tribe. In a sense, we're all predictamancers now, watching the current storyline unfold while aware of an inevitable endpoint. And while we can debate the reliability of Delphie's predictions, we can't really debate our own. We know how the first arc of Wanda's story ends because we know how Book One began. It's not like we're going to see a battle between Haffaton and Faq that ends with Wanda killing Jillian, Jack and Marie.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby drachefly » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:22 am

name lips wrote:In Erfworld, everything has an underlying mechanic. Or at least it seems to.


You might as well say 'in every independently existent universe...'. Whatever happens, happens according to the rules of the universe, whatever those rules happen to be. What else could happen? Whatever it was, it was also due to the rules.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:11 pm

The title "Love is a battlefield" should have applied to this.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby Vorteks » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:18 pm

splintermute wrote:This might all take place before Deletionism was subject to Retconjuration.


I thought "mancymancy" was the school of magic that was replaced by retconjuration? I was sad to see it go.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby Raza » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:24 pm

I've never heard of mancymancy before. Deletionism was definitely in that slot at some point.

MonteCristo wrote:
Raza wrote:Agreed. There's no reason for anybody who didn't already consider animation gross or demeaning to start believing it when applied to a loved one - especially someone like Wanda, who explicitly considers it a thing of beauty. She has all her juice for the turn to spend on him; he'll her masterpiece for some time to come.

I doubt Uncroaked Tommy will last too long... it appears we are winding down to the end of her side. More than likely this would mean her entering combat, most of her comrades croaking and her fellows dusting and then her being captured; whatever is left disbands when the overlord falls... So at most, Wanda will use her juice to restore Tommy to near full strength so that he can get one last spectacular fight with Wanda trying to take out as many haffaton units as possible.

You don't have to keep a work around for it to be your masterpiece, but that sounds otherwise likely enough.

Probably for the better. Having uncroaked Tommy fall in combat would probably feel less like the failure of her art than watching him slowly fall apart again.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:32 am

Raza wrote:I've never heard of mancymancy before. Deletionism was definitely in that slot at some point.


Mancymancy may have been subjected to deletionism. Deletionism was subjected to retconjuration. It is hard to prove that deletionism ever occurred. We cannot link a reference to the target.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby heyduck » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:21 pm

Actually we can, it's still in the archive of erfworld at giantitp.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0040.html
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby Raza » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:28 am

Looks like Rob's an adept class retcojuror, at best. =P
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby Vorteks » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:43 pm

Huh. Did I just imagine "mancymancy"? It's possible, certainly. Maybe I misread "mathamancy" the first time through.

If I did imagine it though, I would suggest to Rob that "mancymancy" would be an awesome name for meta-magic type spells (dispel, reflect, reduce juice cost, etc).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 017

Postby Mrtyuh » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:41 am

Berserkas wrote:Tommy dead? So this is how it ends. Unexpectedly, not in a last and epic standoff and failure against Fate and multiple enemies, with Wanda having to run to the magic kingdom as her family is torn apart by enemies, like i was hoping for. :|

One thing of note about the hippymancers: With their stalling abilities, they are as deadly/far more deadly than some other caster classes. While they prevent the main enemy forces from fighting in the name of "peace", other enemy regiments can go wild on other cities, which is exactly what's happenning. Peace my arse.

I actually expected this to happen. It seemed likely that Atomic would blow it at Kiloton and meet his end. I didn't expect such a long fuse, though. All that remains is for Wanda to be named heir and my speculation will be complete.

Most of Olive's effectiveness here comes from Tommy's poor decisions. Goodminton could have attacked Plankton and avoided the trap. Goodminton could have turned around the moment they reached Kiloton. Tommy is the one who decided to waste a turn at Kiloton and planned on wasting another. Olive could only affect one hex. Also, Haffaton, Quisling and Frenemy obviously had forces deployed elsewhere, ready to move. While I'm not saying Hippiemancers aren't powerful, I don't see them being more dangerous than other casters.

Keldaria wrote:Hmmm, I'm thinking... Maybe goodmitton didn't have an heir delegated even tho the king effectively had a son and a daughter (kind of like how the recent prince needed to be delegated heir for jetstone even tho he was a prince). Soo my thought is that the capital fell or was being captured and the king in a last effort to save at least one of his offspring signed the ready made deal to trade wanda to the other side and spare her the fate of tommy and the rest of his kingdom. Thus fulfilling the predictamancy and ensuring the destruction of wanda's side as predicted.


Even if the capital should fall and they should all disband in the field, she felt glad not to have stayed with Olive.

I think this proves that Tommy was not Heir-Designate. If he had been, Wanda would not have feared disbanding in the field as long as he was alive. Also, if the death had been caused by Overlord Firebaugh's death, they would have all simultaneously vanished, like at Unaroyal. Wanda wouldn't have had time to see Tommy croak and fall from his mount.

vintermann wrote:When exactly do warlords outside cities become barbarian upon the fall of their capital? We know the Wack from Faq became barbarian as a result of it, but apparently Queen Bea's just disbanded when the same thing happened.

Either way, I don't think they just keel over like that. I always imagined disbanding to be depopping, vanishing into thin air-like, not croaking.

Jillian was Banhammer's heir. When he croaked, she and her units remained. The same thing happened when Saline IV croaked. Stanely became Overlord, and Gobwin Knob's units didn't disband. In the case of Unaroyal, Cruz was croaked, so Bea had no heir.

MonteCristo wrote:If i had to guess i would say that this could be all what Haffaton was planning with this whole peace deal. If an alliance is not broken through inaction, then haffaton may have been planning this all the entire time. Through the deal with would get wanda; capture can risk croaking her in combat, or it could mean one of the other sides gets to her first. They would be bound to an alliance, but in truth haffaton no longer needs to do anything to finish off good mitten. They can allow goodmitten's former enemies to wipe out the side for them... Haffaton gets wanda AND gets to end goodmitten, but don't have to face the penalties of breaking alliance because someone else wiped out goodmitten.

I think Haffaton's original offer was genuine. Delphie was convinced that Overlord Firebaugh's rejection of the original peace preposal is what doomed her side. Haffaton seems like the local power. They have at least 9 cities, and they have formidible production capabilities. Frenemy and Quisling are collaborating with Haffaton. They allowed Haffaton units to pass through their territory to seize Goodfinger, since Tommy said they failed to guard Goodminton's flanks. They were feeding Haffaton intelligence that was used to plan ambushes. Olive was well aware of their move against Goodminton's capital. If Goodminton had accepted the original offer, they would have had 5 cities and been allied the to local power. It is also likely that Quisling and Frenemy will also ally with Haffaton. Goodminton would have been a reasonably stong side in a 4-side coalition fighting 2 sides in the battlespace. That probably would have lead to their survival. Instead, they are a side of 2 cities fighting 5 enemies by themselves. Personally, I think Haffaton changed their minds about the peace proposal when Tommy let slip the details of the Prediction.

MonteCristo wrote:I doubt Uncroaked Tommy will last too long... it appears we are winding down to the end of her side. More than likely this would mean her entering combat, most of her comrades croaking and her fellows dusting and then her being captured; whatever is left disbands when the overlord falls... So at most, Wanda will use her juice to restore Tommy to near full strength so that he can get one last spectacular fight with Wanda trying to take out as many haffaton units as possible.

I disagree. I think UnTommy will last until he decays into dust. This whole story is about Wanda. We have to consider what will have the greatest impact on her. Watching her beloved brother decay, turn after turn, until he dusts is much more tragic than watching him dust in combat. She'll get to see her brother turn into something unrecognizable and ugly, and she will be powerless to prevent it. That's my guess anyway.

"Sh," he said, holding up the fingers of his empty hand. He put his cards on the table, face down. "Check the hat. Did the hat rumble?"

It's nice to see Natural Thinkamancy at work. Tommy immediately knew that his father had sent a message and should check the hat.

Olive nodded, her face blank. "Trouble? It's not with us. Maybe it's your allies?"

It seems obvious that Olive knew exactly what had happened. It seems likely that Haffaton actually ordered it.

She touched her brother's arm and looked up at him. "I'll go. If it will save us."

While I think Haffaton's offer was genuine originally, based on Olive's lyrics, by this point, I doubt they would have honored it. They had already moved forces to ambush Goodminton's column, and Frenemy and Quisling were already over their capital. If they had traded Wanda to Haffaton, the ambush on the road wouldn't have happened, but Quisling and Frenemy would still have taken the capital. I doubt the reason they waited to attack had to do with Overlord Firebaugh's cleverness. If they had croaked Firebaugh while Wanda was in the field, she would have disbanded. Haffaton may have told them not to attack until she was either captured or safely in a city. For whatever reason, Haffaton still wants Wanda keenly.

When they finally drew apart, Tommy looked distant and distracted.

I have a feeling Tommy knew he was poisoned the moment it happened. He probably didn't say anything, because he knew his forces were needed in the capital and some may have wanted to attempt revenge if they knew. If he didn't know he was poisoned, he certainly knew Olive had done something to him.
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