Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby StClair » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:51 pm

A joke in one of my old gaming groups was to imagine the people of a Standard NPC Village going about their daily business when suddenly, they all change from black-and-white to color... and freak out, because that means that one or more PCs is/are nearby, and their quiet lives are about to become a lot more "interesting."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby gameboy1234 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:59 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:OMG, Wanda is a Player Character.


I actually opined that a long time ago, but yes, Wanda's fate and Parson's PC-ness do seem to share a lot in common. Both make stuff happen. The rest of Erfworld tends to dance to their tune. There's only a few others like that. Charlie, possibly Jillian and/or Vinny. Everyone else just seems to be a "game piece."

Bonus points: who is Wanda's player? Who's her alter-ego in the real world? You may want to spoiler your answer.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby gameboy1234 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:15 pm

Dunbar wrote:But now I wonder...is Parson a tactical genius? After all, there were close calls with tBfGK, and did Wanda's side only prevail because of her Fate? Would the whole uncroaking the volcano trick have even worked? Or did the rules bend because of Wanda's Fate?

In essense, was the ending of Book 1 due to Parson's ability, or just due to Wanda's Fate?



I think Parson is "fated" just like Wanda. There are, first of all, enough Predictions about him to justify that position.

And secondly, what do we know of Wanda's fate so far? That the four Arkentools are fated to be brought together. Notice there's no mention of who brings them together, or when. So anyone could carry the tools to the same spot, and that would be it. It wouldn't have to be Wanda. Wanda believes Stanley to be fated because he is attuned to an Arkentool, but I doubt it. No one whose actually title is "The Tool" could be fated for anything, except obscurity.

We've learned a lot in these updates, but I think that someone fated could be overpowered by someone else who is also fated. If Charlie wanted those Arkentools, he could get them, and Wanda would probably die. One fate can destroy another.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby jkosta » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:19 pm

Dunbar wrote:Fate doesn't allow the characters to choose. Fate bends the rules of the universe. Wanda fell once in tBfGK and again recently in the dragon harvest maneuver. Both times, the dice were loaded: there was 0 chance of her dying. Fate twisted the laws of the universe to get the desired outcome.

That's not what loaded dice are. Let's say you're a time traveler. Someone rolls a die, it comes up as 6. You travel back 10 seconds and predict it comes up as 6. Was the die loaded? Of course not. Were the rules of the universe twisted? Not at all.

As Clay and Delphie keep pointing out, "You could. But you won't."

Dunbar wrote:So no, to sum up, my problem isn't that Fate is protecting Wanda. My problem is that this reads like Fate is the driving force behind most of the events seen in the comic from the start. And nothing anyone said or did had any impact.

It wouldn't be Fate otherwise. What the hell do you think Fate is, tea time with scones? Stop anthropomorphizing it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby drachefly » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:02 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:Bonus points: who is Wanda's player? Who's her alter-ego in the real world? You may want to spoiler your answer.


Annie, from Darths and Droids.

Dunbar wrote:No, absolutely not. The laws of the universe set the rules of the game. Gravity pulls you towards earth. The sun's rays provide heat and light. Etc. etc. It's not about fair and not fair, it's about being able to choose.


The laws of the universe are also what make your choices happen. You are not outside it. The philosophical questions of free will are trivial once you define free will. It exists, or does not, depending on the definition.

In this case, the question of whether Fate is intervening in choices is valid. I personally think that Rob had a story idea that included prophecy and he arranged events so the prophecies would be made in advance of their being fulfilled... but in the story, it could be that under certain circumstances with requirements including but not restricted to self-consistence, closed timelike loops of information are possible. Information obtainable by these is called Fate. In that case, it isn't Fate intervening. It's just that most people aren't implicated in those trickles of backwards flowing information.

(edited to add 'with requirements')
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby Knight13 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:31 pm

That's not what loaded dice are. Let's say you're a time traveler. Someone rolls a die, it comes up as 6. You travel back 10 seconds and predict it comes up as 6. Was the die loaded? Of course not. Were the rules of the universe twisted? Not at all.

As Clay and Delphie keep pointing out, "You could. But you won't."

That's different, that die was not Fated to land on any particular number, it just happened to land on 6. In fact, the very act of you going back and predicting the roll could cause it to be different, because the roller might roll it slightly differently or something. The laws of the universe say that there's a chance Wanda will croak when she falls from a height, but in her case we know that's not true, because it's predetermined that she'll survive to claim the Arkenpliers. If something won't happen, whether it can or not doesn't matter at all.

If Goodminton (well I say if) is doomed, it's Delphie who doomed them. Her actions made certain that the peace offer was refused. On both occasions, if she'd stopped pushing after her demotion, if she hadn't gotten Tommy so worried... he wouldn't have been so desperate to turn Olive, which is where the problems started. Never mind that the Kiloton ambush was a direct result of her plot. Delphie's 'help' was worse than useless, at every stage.

Precisely, if Delphie had just kept her lip buttoned, Wanda would very likely have taken the deal. She refused it largely because it seemed like what she was Fated to do.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby Pohsib » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:58 pm

This update really made me sympathize with Delphie for the first time. She's finally revealed her nihilistic inner turmoil; because of her Predictamancy, she has empirical evidence showing that her own life is entirely meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The universe plays favourites and literally doesn't care about Delphie in the slightest. If she ceased to exist, the universal script wouldn't be fazed, and she has to deal with the unfairness of this fact somehow.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby drachefly » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:05 am

Knight13 wrote:The laws of the universe say that there's a chance Wanda will croak when she falls from a height, but in her case we know that's not true, because it's predetermined that she'll survive to claim the Arkenpliers. If something won't happen, whether it can or not doesn't matter at all.


In many cases (basically every case in reality except for those dependent on quantum mechanics), chance is simply due to ignorance. Chance is not in the thing. Chance is in you, because you don't know enough to be able to predict.

The information flow of prophecy lets you take a shortcut - you do know.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby Infidel » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:29 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:OMG, Wanda is a Player Character.


I think you are right....Again.

jkosta wrote:That's not what loaded dice are. Let's say you're a time traveler. Someone rolls a die, it comes up as 6. You travel back 10 seconds and predict it comes up as 6. Was the die loaded? Of course not. Were the rules of the universe twisted? Not at all.


I've always believed that if a die roll were truly random then you might go back in time and roll something different.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby Mrtyuh » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:51 am

Dunbar wrote:No, absolutely not. The laws of the universe set the rules of the game. Gravity pulls you towards earth. The sun's rays provide heat and light. Etc. etc. It's not about fair and not fair, it's about being able to choose.

Gravity does not pull you towards earth. Space pushes you towards earth. Gravity is, effectively, space's immune response to a foreign object, id est matter. It is a matter of perception. Why does it matter? I'll get there in a minute.

In fiction, I have seen Fate work in one of three ways. The first is that Fate can be overcome. Fate is a chain drawing one towards something horrible, and the heroic protagonist is able to break the shackles and escape. I hate that interpretation of Fate, because it isn't Fate. It is something done by, in my opinion, poor authors in an attempt to increase tension. It is cheap. The second option is that Fate is immutable and free will is an illusion. Every step is already predestined. The characters are simply actors in a play, and they cannot deviate from their parts. In this case, character qualities are meaningless, since they are going to do what they are going to do. Whatever stratagems or schemes Parson develops and the oppositions reactions are all already set in stone. It doesn't matter because whether they will succeed or fail has already been determined. In fiction, this is probably the closest to the truth, since the author is, essentially, Fate. I find this a perfectly acceptable approach, since, much like any story, the interest comes from watching things unfold. The third option, which seems to be the way Rob is going, is that certain events are Fated, but the path is not. I tend to find this the most interesting, because it does allow different outcomes and adds weight to the characters' choices. The reader can appreciate the good choices that improved the outcome or agonize of the poor ones that soured the outcome.

It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, the second or third option is what is bothering you. You feel Fate is cheating the natural laws to achieve its result. This is where the point about perception comes in. If it is the second option, Fate isn't altering the set rules of the universe; Fate is the rules of the universe. Everything that happens is just a set of dominos set in motion long ago. Parson's plan is already predetermined. Ansom's response is already pretermined. Everyone is just a particle interacting with other particles according to the physics of the universe. It isn't Fate chosing for them, though. It is the choice is a foregone conclusion given the series of events and circumstances. It is like that character is a hydrogen atom. The atom does not chose anything. It some circumstances, it will combine with oxygen to form water. In others, it will fuse with another hydrogen atom to become helium. In different circumstances, such as deep in the bowels of Jupiter, it will form a matrix with other hydrogen atoms to become metallic hydrogen. Elements in a star's core may believe they have a choice, but they'll keep fusing until they make iron, and then the star will die. They are simply particles reacting under the laws of physics in the environment in which they find themselves. If it is the third option, choices do matter. The GM may be determined that they all wind up before the King, but they can choice to enter the city through the sewers, sneak over the wall or charge the front gate. If they sneak in through the sewers, they may find a treasure that changes everything. If they sneak over the wall, they may save the King from an assassination attempt and have him in their debt. If they charge the gate, they'll be brought before the King in chains. In this case, ending up before the King isn't what is important, the how they got there is. That is choice. It is about the journey being more important than the destination. It's about reading the story instead of just jumping to the end. In this instance, choice may be the most important thing of all.

Whispri wrote:If Goodminton (well I say if) is doomed, it's Delphie who doomed them. Her actions made certain that the peace offer was refused. On both occasions, if she'd stopped pushing after her demotion, if she hadn't gotten Tommy so worried... he wouldn't have been so desperate to turn Olive, which is where the problems started. Never mind that the Kiloton ambush was a direct result of her plot. Delphie's 'help' was worse than useless, at every stage.

While I agree Delphie shares responsibility for the dire circumstances in which Goodminton finds itself, I don't think all the blame can be laid on her. Delphie was mistaken when she lied, since it ruined her credibility. Delphie was mistaken to inform Tommy about the details of the Prediction. Delphie was mistaken in her fatalism towards Overlord Firebaugh. She has made poor choices. Wanda was mistaken in her resolute determination to fight Fate, instead of working with it to reach a better outcome. Tommy was mistaken informing Larry of the Prediction, which probably led to Haffaton deciding not to continue diplomacy. Overlord Firebaugh was mistaken when he chose inaction. There were many mistakes made by many people which compounded on each other. Delphie did not have all the answers. She should have admitted that from the start. She did, however, act in her side's best interests, with what information she did have, to the best of her ability. The fact that she failed just makes her human. She failed, and she should have gone about it differently, but I can't fault her for trying.

Whispri wrote:Wait, Wanda has duties, but there's been no fighting, what's she up to these days?

This is what we know. It has been five turns since the air battle. We haven't heard anything about Goodfinger or Goodminton's other city, although, at the time of the air battle, Goodfinger was likely to fall soon, and Overlord Firebaugh was considering razing it. There has been on action in the capital. Goodminton has sought no action in the field. There are still captured units from the air battle that haven't turned. Wanda has not come up with any brilliant new ideas. Wanda ordered Clay to boost three scouts. Overlord Firebaugh gave Wanda a boon after the air battle. Wanda told her father she would be the field commander Goodminton needed. Fritz is practical but not imaginative, and he feels it is not his place to make strategic decisions. So, what are Wanda's duties?

Mind you, this is all speculation. First, it may be Wanda's duty to interrogate the prisoners and to attempt to turn them. We know Wanda had a talent for interrogation and torture at Gobwin Knob. This may be where she gets her start. It may also be where she discovers her sadism kink. We know Wanda is responsible for prisoners at Gobwin Knob. We also know Vanna is responsible for prisoners at Faq. Now, it can be argued these are special cases, Wanda's personal interest in Jillian and Vanna being a Turnamancer, but it also plausible that prisoners falling under the auspices of casters being the norm in Erfworld. The second possibility is that Wanda has become the de facto Chief Warlord of Goodminton. Her father may still hope her to be the commander that will save their side. It was her brilliant plan that saved the capital. Unfortunately, she can't come up with another. Instead of trying to wrestle the initiative from their enemies, which is really their only hope, they are surrendering it. Patton once said that a good plan today is better than a perfect plan next week. Wanda doesn't realize this, so she is doing nothing while she tries to come up with a brilliant plan. Goodminton is scouting, though, so they are trying to keep tabs on enemy movements. Just because Goodminton has sought no engagements in the field, it does not mean there have not been any. Goodminton's enemies are certainly moving, even if Goodminton is not. It may be that Wanda is looking for a weak, isolated enemy force she feels she can overwhelm. Goodminton seems to expect another air attack, so they are just sitting there waiting for it. So, Wanda may need to meet with Fritz and Overlord Firebaugh to discuss strategy, even if she hasn't come up with any good ideas yet.

Whispri wrote:There's a crucial difference. Gobwin Knob is not the side to which Wanda was popped. It's not part of her Tribe. She owes them nothing, no debt she hasn't repayed in spades, the Side would have fallen long ago without her. Also: Stanley, an idiot to whom she's reduced to serving as a concubine.

Gobwin Knob paid her upkeep for hundreds of turns. They gave her free reign to do what she wanted, indulge in her hobbies. While Wanda gave them Faq's three cities, which probably gave their treasury a nice boost, it wasn't her intention to do so. She may have been behind the death of Saline IV. She certainly inflated Stanley's ego, encouraging him to attack his neighbors and claim a Titanic Mandate. She was an enabler to Stanley. She was also in control of the relationship with him. She dictated the terms. Any position in which she found herself, she put herself there. Wanda was probably more responsible for the dire situation Gobwin Knob found itself in than Delphie is for the one Goodminton finds itself in. Anything Wanda has done for Gobwin Knob has been solely in her own interest. Any benefit Gobwin Knob has reaped is wholely an unintended consequence. Of course, I'm splitting hairs here. My intention was to point out how Wanda once seemed irate over the idea of someone being loyal to Fate, when that is where her own loyalty will eventually lie.

I also find the difference between the Chief Predictamancer of Goodminton and the Chief Croakamancer of Goodminton interesting. Delphie was manipulative, haughty and autocratic, but she was never thoughtless or cruel. While Wanda is not yet manipulative, we know she will be by the time she gets to Gobwin Knob. Currently, all the other adjectives describe her. She is haughty in her new raiment, enjoying the power it gives her. She is autocratic, forcing Clay and Delphie to change quarters and dictating most of their actions. She is thoughtless and cruel. She only cares about herself, her father and her side. She cared about her brother. She gives no thought to what others want. She tramples all over the feelings of others in her pursuit of her own desires. She does not care how much she hurts Delphie; she's upset because she things don't work the way she wants them to. Her orders may end up killing Delphie and Clay. She has forbidden them from entering the Magic Kingdom without orders. If they find themselves in a situation where they need to flee or perish, they'll perish because they can't flee. While I didn't like Lady Temple as Chief Caster, I think Lady Firebaugh is much worse. Maybe the job just brings out the worst in her. Maybe she will be more sympathetic in service of Haffaton and Faq. Anyway, enough pointless musing.

doran wrote:Oh! Guys! I just realised remembered something really relevant http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F013.jpg - Panel 6 - I guess that implies Sizemore has Fate as well - perhaps to wield a certain Arkentool - could be why Wanda has never mentioned sacrificing him like Jack? She could recognise that knowing her own Fate has severely messed her up and knows Sizemore's but doesn't tell him.

Sizemore could tell that Jojo's scroll was Carnymancy. I think Fate magic was just the type of magic the scroll used. I don't think it had Sizemore's and Wanda's Fate written into it. I took Wanda's comment to simply mean that the future of their side hinged on the scroll on the warlord it summoned. Of course, I could be reading too little into the conversation.

StClair wrote:A joke in one of my old gaming groups was to imagine the people of a Standard NPC Village going about their daily business when suddenly, they all change from black-and-white to color... and freak out, because that means that one or more PCs is/are nearby, and their quiet lives are about to become a lot more "interesting."

There is an Order of the Stick strip like that. Thanks for reminding me of it. It's been a while since I read it.

Pohsib wrote:This update really made me sympathize with Delphie for the first time. She's finally revealed her nihilistic inner turmoil; because of her Predictamancy, she has empirical evidence showing that her own life is entirely meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The universe plays favourites and literally doesn't care about Delphie in the slightest. If she ceased to exist, the universal script wouldn't be fazed, and she has to deal with the unfairness of this fact somehow.

I agree. This is the first time I've sympathized with Delphie.

Also, we did learn something about Predictamancy this update. Predictamancy is actually two different things. There is intuiting outcomes, and there is reading Fate. When I took high school physics, I remember a class where the teacher had a ramp and a ball. He told us that if we could tell him where the ball would land, he would let us out of class for the period. We did it. It wasn't seeing the future. It was all math. It was about calculating the acceleration due to gravity, the angle of the ramp and the velocity of the ball. Of course, there were tons of factors we didn't consider, such as the friction of the ball on the ramp, air resistance and air currents to name a few, but in the small scale of that experiment, they had negligible impact on where the ball would land. I imagine intuiting outcomes works like that. Ultimately, it is the same as Mathamancy. Will Firebaugh croak if stacked with us? Will this shot hit? Where will that unit be in two seconds? Where will the enemy shoot? The further in the future a Predictamancer looks, the more variables involved, the harder it is to get an outcome. Will the capital be attacked by air? Eventually. Will the capital fall in that attack? Maybe. Marie mentioned there are turns where everything is cloudy until something is decided. Wanda compared it to her own Croakamancy sense. While she can feel nerves and muscles, Delphie and Marie can feel outcomes. If you don't like an outcome, you change the action that will lead to that outcome. This is what allowed Faq to stay hidden for so long. Reading Fate is different. It seems to overshadow the other. It creates a current that draws everything towards it. Reading Fate discovers an outcome that is unescapable. It is like an event horizon. Once across it, there is no escape. At that point, it is simply a matter of where and when the event will occur. Anyway, that is the way it is starting to look to me. One is precognition, and the other is an immutable event.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby onlyme » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:40 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:OMG, Wanda is a Player Character.


No, a player can die, a player can choose.

This means she is a quest NPC. The normal random admospheric NPC can do random decisions and it does not matter where they are when the player is around next.

But the quest NPC must be at the correct part of the world once the player is there. And they must have all the significant developed traits of their character and background history correct.

So assume you have some of those games nowadays called "role play" games. Assume NPCs are not created once the player first enters the room but live their random lives to get a diverse atmosphere. For those NPCs fate would be the property of some characters destined to be part of the big quests.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:08 am

onlyme wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:OMG, Wanda is a Player Character.


No, a player can die, a player can choose.


Nope. If they die, they can always load a savegame :P Also, while "side-quests" are typical, also typical is an overarching quest which even if it has a multiple choice ending, is fairly well defined.

gameboy1234 wrote:I actually opined that {Wanda is a PC} a long time ago


Ouch, got ninjaed by a couple of years, me.

drachefly wrote:{irt. who's Wanda's player} Annie, from Darths and Droids.


Do her parents know what she's up to on the interwebz?

Mrtyuh wrote:{irt. Dunbar about Fate} It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, the second or third option is what is bothering you. You feel Fate is cheating the natural laws to achieve its result.


Thank you, that's in a nutshell the compatibilist version of Dunbar's objections.

Dunbar wrote:No, absolutely not. The laws of the universe set the rules of the game. Gravity pulls you towards earth. The sun's rays provide heat and light. Etc. etc. It's not about fair and not fair, it's about being able to choose.

{cross-post snip}

Let's say there is no free will. {snip} So it's entirely possible that we have no free will, everything is determined. We have no responsibility for any of our actions, no matter how noble or heinous. Meaning those actions aren't worthy of praise or derision, but will receive same because of other people whose actions are also determined. {snip} Well, if that is the case, then nothing I do matters.


I see. You're not a compatibilist. (I am btw, and that's why I found it more palatable to reframe your concerns about Wanda and Fate in a different light).

Well, being a compatibilist, it just doesn't follow, to me, that complete determinism removes "importance" from one's actions. "Nothing I do matters if I don't have (non-deterministic) free will"- ok fine, be that way. Get too philosophical and you'll starve, as Feynman cheekily pointed out once. I presume you mean "nothing matters" in some other, more obscure sense, because obviously everything you do matters as it has consequences of its own.

It also doesn't follow that determinism removes responsibility from "you". Who/what are "you"? Is there some way for "you" to look at the universe and say, "this part is more 'me' than this other part?". Do your choices arise from deliberations that occur in that "more like 'me'" part?

I suspect the answer to the first is yes (unless you're trippin', supposedly), and I suspect the second is also yes, but a no here is plausible since many people feel the modern world robs them of agency, and that they are not the choosers of their own destiny. Even a "no" to the second question however arises because of things a philosopher would call contingent. Not necessary effects of fundamental laws of nature/logic, but the result of the environment one happens to be in imposing contingent constraints, which could, in principle, not have been there.

So even if one's choices are determined by some deterministic machinery, as long as that machinery is inside themselves or actually is themselves they are the choosing agent, and responsible for those choices being good/appropriate/clever/whatever attribute one cares to judge choices by.

This might look oxymoronic to a non-compatibilist, and alas, from my compatibilist orbit, your position looks just as contradictory. What would you rather have? Non-determinism? Flipping a truly random coin when making choices? How is that conducive to responsibility or moral agency or any other things we associate with free will? Or maybe you want choices influenced by one's motivations, desires, attitudes and so on. Do you want those to exist in a vacuum, independent of the environment one is in? If they are dependent on that environment, don't we return to a disguised determinism? Maybe you want a mix, like some deliberation mechanism providing a list of choices, with probability assignments to each, and one is chosen randomly from them. But that's just the random coin substituting itself for the agent once more.

Which is why, since trying to bridge this gap on the understanding of FWvD will likely be only annoying, I wanted to avoid it altogether and recast the discussion as Fate overriding the stated rules. This avoids the whole weedosophy above, while focusing imo on the issue at stake. That Fate may or may not railroad the "game" by, effectively, cheating.

drachefly wrote:The laws of the universe are also what make your choices happen. You are not outside it. The philosophical questions of free will are trivial once you define free will. It exists, or does not, depending on the definition.


Concise as always. Indeed, definition is the whole issue here.

drachefly wrote:it could be that under certain circumstances with requirements including but not restricted to self-consistence, closed timelike loops of information are possible. Information obtainable by these is called Fate. In that case, it isn't Fate intervening. It's just that most people aren't implicated in those trickles of backwards flowing information.


I've had this idea too, not in relation to Erfworld but some other no-place. It's certainly an interesting way to handle time travel and, indeed, the whole Free Will vs. Determinism thing, with a side-dish of social commentary on inequality.

drachefly wrote:Chance is not in the thing. Chance is in you, because you don't know enough to be able to predict.


Therefore, Bayesians.

Infidel wrote:I've always believed that if a die roll were truly random then you might go back in time and roll something different.


Yep, I've always believed that too. Which is why I am always annoyed when save-loading doesn't work because the RNG isn't rando- well everybody save-loads, right?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby 0beron » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:08 am

Mrtyuh wrote:Gravity does not pull you towards earth. Space pushes you towards earth. Gravity is, effectively, space's immune response to a foreign object, id est matter. It is a matter of perception. Why does it matter? I'll get there in a minute.


Sorry, I couldn't even continue reading your post after this mistake, because I assumed the rest of your argument was based on this concept. Gravity DOES pull you towards Earth. Gravity is a universal force of ATTRACTION between two objects. So technically, you and the Earth both pull on each other, but because Earth is so much more massive, the only discernible direction of the pull between you is towards Earth. Empty space cannot "push".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby Mrtyuh » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:34 am

First, it was a small part of my post. Second, you are wrong. Gravity is the distortion made in space-time caused by mass. I saw a special on PBS where Dr. Michio Kaku described it in detail. While I cannot remember the show, I found a transcript here where he states the same thing. Space pushes mass together. The more mass there is, the greater the distortion and the greater the force. While I am not a physicist, I think it is pretty safe to assume that Dr. Michio Kaku knows more about how gravity works than you, me or the guy that wrote that Wikipedia entry.
Last edited by Mrtyuh on Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby Raza » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:37 am

drachefly wrote:The laws of the universe are also what make your choices happen. You are not outside it. The philosophical questions of free will are trivial once you define free will. It exists, or does not, depending on the definition.

This. The whole angst surrounding the question is pointless; the concept of free will was invented to describe the sensation of choice we have as we live our lives, to distinguish it from choices we can't make the way we would like to as a result of external coercion. Philosophers hijacked the term and turned it into an abstraction, then started to place demands on how it should be defined in order to be 'real', all the way up to requiring it to operate outside the bounds of physics entirely... but none of those definitions or their (absence of) applicability change the real-life experience that caused us to coin the term in the first place.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:50 am

Raza wrote:the concept of free will was invented to describe the sensation of choice we have as we live our lives, to distinguish it from choices we can't make the way we would like to as a result of external coercion.


Another concise summary. I'll try to learn from such examples.

Mrtyuh wrote:I saw a special on PBS where Dr. Michio Kaku


Aaaaaaarrrrgh!!

Mrtyuh wrote:described it in detail. {snip} I think it is pretty safe to assume that Dr. Michio Kaku knows more about how gravity works than you, me or the guy that wrote that Wikipedia entry.


Yes, he does. No, this doesn't mean his shows aren't usually full of bollocks as a result of some ill-conceived notion of dumbing stuff down/putting a sensationalist/speculative spin on things.

"Gravity doesn't pull; space pushes": ok, what does this mean? I know (a part of) what he means, but I don't think it comes across at all, which is why I'm no fan of his (or any) popsci.
Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby onlyme » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:50 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
onlyme wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:OMG, Wanda is a Player Character.


No, a player can die, a player can choose.


Nope. If they die, they can always load a savegame :P Also, while "side-quests" are typical, also typical is an overarching quest which even if it has a multiple choice ending, is fairly well defined.


In a multi-player setup or a player connected to some game running on a server there are no savesgames.
Even if there is a save-game, the player migh chose to not open it.

And that is only dying. Even if the games only really continues if the player moves to some specific place,
the game will hardly ever force the player. The player can usually always stay in the early game doing the boring stuff again and again and again.

The quest NPC on the other hand will always be in their position until the player arrives. It will never be killed by another NPC before that (assuming a halfway decent game)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:58 am

onlyme wrote:In a multi-player setup or a player connected to some game running on a server there are no savesgames.


True, there's respawns though, and backups; coops to prevent PvP etc. So ok, Wanda is not a PC, she is the PC.

onlyme wrote:Even if there is a save-game, the player migh chose to not open it.


Then the universe would just stop.

onlyme wrote:And that is only dying. Even if the games only really continues if the player moves to some specific place,
the game will hardly ever force the player. The player can usually always stay in the early game doing the boring stuff again and again and again.


True, the PC can choose to prolooooong their "fate" indefinitely until the controlling human decides to move on (so fate happens) or gets bored and never resumes (so the universe stops and the whole thing is moot).

onlyme wrote:The quest NPC on the other hand will always be in their position until the player arrives. It will never be killed by another NPC before that (assuming a halfway decent game)


Look, I'm just playing around here. Your quest-NPC interpretation is certainly plausible (and arguably the most plausible for a host of reasons, including the fact that there may not be any "players" in Erfworld at all). That said, "Wanda is a/the PC" is more fun. I loved StClair's joke.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby Morni » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:04 am

Wanda has fate.. we know that she needs to survive to become part of book 1 & 2. So her not dying is of no suprise.

Wanda latest fate was to get an arkentool.. she got one.. Now her fate might have been accomplish and so she could die in book 2. She did a lot of killing in book 2 so her number is getting closer to 0 extremly fast.

I like how Lady Temple doesn't look like a bad guy for selling out Wanda. She was just trying to protect her side.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 024

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:11 am

Morni wrote:I like how Lady Temple doesn't look like a bad guy for selling out Wanda. She was just trying to protect her side.


She never looked like a villain, not to me anyway. Her sin is simply pride; or whatever you call not trusting anyone's judgement but her own.
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