Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:30 pm

Zeku wrote:Edit: Its adorable that the rope tassle looks like a badminton.


There is no such thing as "a badminton". Badminton is a game named after Badminton House (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badminton_House). The object hit by rackets in the game of badminton is called a shuttlecock or just "shuttle", not "a badminton".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby name lips » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:01 pm

I keep wondering about the significance of the little pink flower. It was on Olive's clothes, which Wanda wore for some time. Even when she changed them to match Goodminton's colors, she kept the little pink flower (at that time not knowing it had anything to do with Olive).

Now, in the main comic, she chose to keep the little pink flower for her own symbol for her Decrypted army. She doesn't seem the sympathetic sort, to remember something fondly and to use the flower as a homage to it. I can't see her remembering Olive fondly at all anyway.

So maybe she's including it to remind her of something? Of the futility of fighting Fate, maybe?

Any ideas?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby CNagy » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Any ideas?


Something that happens either connected to Olive or while Wanda is serving under Wanda really drives home the "can't fight Fate" inevitability, perhaps, and Wanda adopts the flower as a reminder of that? Alternatively, Wanda makes good on her promise to be a poison pill and personally orchestrates Olive's downfall, then adopts her symbol the way armies of yore collected the liveries and standards of vanquished foes to add to their own.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby Housellama » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:45 pm

CNagy wrote:
Any ideas?


Something that happens either connected to Olive or while Wanda is serving under Wanda really drives home the "can't fight Fate" inevitability, perhaps, and Wanda adopts the flower as a reminder of that? Alternatively, Wanda makes good on her promise to be a poison pill and personally orchestrates Olive's downfall, then adopts her symbol the way armies of yore collected the liveries and standards of vanquished foes to add to their own.


Or maybe she just thinks it's cute.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby Lor » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:01 am

name lips wrote:So, has Wanda decided that, since she cannot die until her Fate has been fulfilled, that she has no reason not to go out and FIGHT?

Maybe, in the present day with the Arkenpliers, she has yet to work for Olive. Which would be part of why she still never, for a single moment, fears that she will die.


That is a very intriguing idea. I find it unlikely since I believe Wanda's views on Love may need more of Olive's tutelage, but still interesting.

I also wonder about Lord Firebaugh's statement:
He turned his head and looked at her, the firelight glinting in his eyes. "You are my daughter. While I live, avenge Tommy. Should I fall, avenge me. Avenge Goodminton. I want you to make them pay. If they swallow you, be a poison pill. Let that be my legacy. It is terribly important, I feel."


Does this mean that Wanda (in addition to being a caster) is also an heir? If so, one could posit that she has never turned to any side, but merely been allied all along.

All in all, eagerly awaiting the next episode, as always.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby DoctorJest » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:54 am

Lor wrote:Does this mean that Wanda (in addition to being a caster) is also an heir?


What? No. Why would that in any way make her an heir? Being made an heir is like being made chief warlord. It's explicit and a definable (and presumably see-able) quality possessed by a unit.

And if she had just "allied" to a side, the side she allied with would know this. You can't deceive someone into thinking you're on their side when you're just an ally, and it's clear from her interactions with Stanley that he's most certainly her Overlord and Parson is Chief Warlord, neither of which would be true for her if she were allied. There's no way they would be unaware of her just being an ally and it would have at least been mentioned, and as an ally she'd be under no compulsion for duty or to obey orders.

It just makes no sense at all.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby Lor » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:24 am

I could bring up that a majority of familial relationships have been ruler-heir relationships (Prince Trem being the most notable exception).

Rather, I would state that Lord Firebaugh is stating a belief that Wanda will survive. There are two possibilities I see.

1) Wanda will survive as the lone commander of her side (similar to Jillian)
2) Lord F believes that Wanda will turn or be turned, and asks that she eventually turn from Haffaton and betray them.

I hadn't thought of the second possibility before, and was merely extrapolating on the first.

And offhand I recall most of Wanda's actions as benefiting her first and Stanley second (example omitted for fear of another tangent). Stanley was only the path to her eventual attunement and the merging of the tools.

Oh well, I'm willing to put that aside if I must, but Lord F's statement struck me as significant with respect to certain ruler-based mechanics; so I thought to post my wonderment.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby drachefly » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:00 am

... or, she will make it to the MK before the city falls. Casters have that option.

... or she will be captured, turn so she can fulfil the order he just gave her.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby raphfrk » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:11 am

snow1wolf wrote:Very Interesting what I want to know is just how is wanda someone specficly going to make haffaton invincible.


Maybe, Wanda is fated to be part of a side that could take over the world and Delphie told that to Olive.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby querzis » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:27 am

PhantomFox wrote:I'm still a bit confused on where this is all going. The only idea that comes to mind is that Wanda is a serial backstabber?


Actually, what first came to my mind was that, despite many apparent betrayal, Wanda didnt betray anyone. This really gave me a new hindsight into Wanda cause, up until now, she was definitly the character I despised the most in the comic (sure she was sweet when she was young but really, most villains are). But the implications of this page is that all of Wanda apparent betrayals were in fact her staying loyal to her father and Goodmington.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby Morni » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:24 am

DoctorJest wrote:What? No. Why would that in any way make her an heir? Being made an heir is like being made chief warlord. It's explicit and a definable (and presumably see-able) quality possessed by a unit.


an heir doesn't have to be the chief warlord. an heir could be pop so that the ruler could go into some fight. Like don king father. I recall a blog about that.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby Lamech » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:06 pm

Here is how they could do it:
Talk to Haffaton, say that they will send Wanda into the MK never to return unless the following contract is agreeded to:
1) Penalty clause: 1 trillion shmuckers, all cities and units. Wanda's return must be included as a condition. (This is the most important part.)
2) They get a few cities some units to guard them, and a caster who isn't the florist. Its a fair trade. (This can be given up as a bargaining chip.)
3) They must be paid a decent stipend each turn, unless they formally return Wanda to them. If Wanda is captured stipend must still be paid. (Another bargaining chip to bend on.)
4) Wanda must be allowed access to the MK, not overly violated, and have no mind controlling spells placed on her. Wanda may NOT be disbanded, traded or the like.
5) A permanent alliance.
6) As soon as the alliance is agreeded to Wanda will be sent through the MK, after being given a short while to say goodbyes.

The Overlord of Goodmitton, has no reason to let his daughter die a pointless death, this is not an empty threat.

Alliance is accept since Wanda is the attuned. Now, Wanda punches a Goodmitton unit in the face. Alliance broken penalty clause trips. GG.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby Whispri » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:13 pm

name lips wrote:I keep wondering about the significance of the little pink flower. It was on Olive's clothes, which Wanda wore for some time. Even when she changed them to match Goodminton's colors, she kept the little pink flower (at that time not knowing it had anything to do with Olive).

Now, in the main comic, she chose to keep the little pink flower for her own symbol for her Decrypted army. She doesn't seem the sympathetic sort, to remember something fondly and to use the flower as a homage to it. I can't see her remembering Olive fondly at all anyway.

So maybe she's including it to remind her of something? Of the futility of fighting Fate, maybe?

Any ideas?

Wanda may be rather miffed with Olive at the moment, but a few thousand turns from now when she's all but wearing a collar marked 'Slave to Fate'? I can see her looking back on Olive fondly, even if they never meet again.

Actually, it looks to me like she still has the flower on the side of her new outfit.

DoctorJest wrote:What? No. Why would that in any way make her an heir? Being made an heir is like being made chief warlord. It's explicit and a definable (and presumably see-able) quality possessed by a unit.

And if she had just "allied" to a side, the side she allied with would know this. You can't deceive someone into thinking you're on their side when you're just an ally, and it's clear from her interactions with Stanley that he's most certainly her Overlord and Parson is Chief Warlord, neither of which would be true for her if she were allied. There's no way they would be unaware of her just being an ally and it would have at least been mentioned, and as an ally she'd be under no compulsion for duty or to obey orders.

It just makes no sense at all.

Not so, there's a very important difference. An heir is something a Commander can be popped as, the status doesn't have to be granted later. And it can't be seeable, else Jillian's heirship would have been known long before she revealed it.

As for the alliegance thing, why must Wanda be a Barbarian in the Future Era if she is an heir? I will note that Parson didn't learn that his natural allies, were in fact allies, until he was told as much, despite his glasses. And you can be sure those natural allies treat Stanley and Parson as their Overlord and Chief Warlord respectively. Allied Barbarians may work a little differently I suppose, but Jillian's Barbarian Witch seems to act like any other Caster.

However, when Wanda and company were in the field with an invasion force looming above Goodminton, they feared disbandment. This indicates that Wanda does not believe herself to be an heir. It's possible she was popped as heir but doesn't believe that Casters can become Rulers though (or that she isn't certain either way). It's also possible that her purse was empty, or simply too small to pay the upkeep of so many Officers and Heavies for more than a turn or two, if that. She was after all, in the field with Goodminton's primary Warband.

raphfrk wrote:Maybe, Wanda is fated to be part of a side that could take over the world and Delphie told that to Olive.

That would imply that Wanda and Olive are to do it together. So if Delphie's visions are of the Future Era, Olive would have to pop up somehow. Perhaps she'll join a new Side Wanda establishes?

Of course, it's hard to say what Delphie actually saw. We only view her 'Goodminton' spin on them. Even her most truthful version of the future may be a poorer interpretation then we could make. The Olive stuff and the all conquering Wanda stuff may actually be seperate events she's assuming will happen concurrently. I remain unconvinced that Wanda will do anything more to Olive than think about her intensely.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby raphfrk » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:16 pm

Whispri wrote:
raphfrk wrote:Maybe, Wanda is fated to be part of a side that could take over the world and Delphie told that to Olive.

That would imply that Wanda and Olive are to do it together. So if Delphie's visions are of the Future Era, Olive would have to pop up somehow. Perhaps she'll join a new Side Wanda establishes?


She may have made more than one predictions. Wanda will be Olive's subordinate for a long time and be part of a side that can take over the world.

Olive could have misunderstood and Delphie would have had no reason to correct her.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby raphfrk » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:27 pm

Whispri wrote:
raphfrk wrote:Maybe, Wanda is fated to be part of a side that could take over the world and Delphie told that to Olive.

That would imply that Wanda and Olive are to do it together. So if Delphie's visions are of the Future Era, Olive would have to pop up somehow. Perhaps she'll join a new Side Wanda establishes?


Predictions don't have to be visions. In the example, she would just know that a) Wanda will have Olive for a Chief Caster and b) that Wanda will be part of a side that could take over the world.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby snow1wolf » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:36 pm

raphfrk wrote:
Whispri wrote:
raphfrk wrote:Maybe, Wanda is fated to be part of a side that could take over the world and Delphie told that to Olive.

That would imply that Wanda and Olive are to do it together. So if Delphie's visions are of the Future Era, Olive would have to pop up somehow. Perhaps she'll join a new Side Wanda establishes?


Predictions don't have to be visions. In the example, she would just know that a) Wanda will have Olive for a Chief Caster and b) that Wanda will be part of a side that could take over the world.


What we know about Wanda's fate thus far is she is fated to serve under Olive. However the funny thing is that for that fate to be achieved it only has to last a second and it is resolved. After-wards it really don't matter a spit if Olive and Haffaton disappear from existence or not. The second thing we know is that she will be attuned to an Arken tool and we know they are the pliers and they end up allowing her to create a nigh unstoppable death army all on her own power with no added upkeep costs. Who says she has to be fated to belong to a side that will conquer the world, really just tell someone Wanda's second part of her fate and you better bet they will think they will be unstoppable with her on there side.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby multilis » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:46 pm

name lips wrote:I keep wondering about the significance of the little pink flower. It was on Olive's clothes, which Wanda wore for some time. Even when she changed them to match Goodminton's colors, she kept the little pink flower (at that time not knowing it had anything to do with Olive).

Now, in the main comic, she chose to keep the little pink flower for her own symbol for her Decrypted army. She doesn't seem the sympathetic sort, to remember something fondly and to use the flower as a homage to it. I can't see her remembering Olive fondly at all anyway.

So maybe she's including it to remind her of something? Of the futility of fighting Fate, maybe?

Any ideas?

Skull=Kill
Pink flower=Florist/Olive

He turned his head and looked at her, the firelight glinting in his eyes. "You are my daughter. While I live, avenge Tommy. Should I fall, avenge me. Avenge Goodminton. I want you to make them pay. If they swallow you, be a poison pill. Let that be my legacy. It is terribly important, I feel."

...

Book 2 conspiracy involves a predictomancer, a very good florist, wanda and a way to bring about an end of war. So symbol could also be about this magic combo as a way to win. (Marie has just been working to get florist and wanda on same side)

Possibly Olive was also planning to summon Perfect Warlord as part of the winning combo, it could be that the spell to summon him has to be cast by Wanda.

Arkendish may allow some sort of super mage linkup involving 4 casters each attuned to their tool of titans. One of tools may attune to a florist.


"Because I know the ways of war. Haffaton is more than powerful. They are that most dangerous of sides: a patient one. They want you for a reason. The Lady Temple says she cannot see your Fate much beyond your serving that other caster. But she thinks they believe you can make their side unstoppable. That with your help, Haffaton could conquer the world."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby Kreistor » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:00 am

On another note...

I don't buy it.

Haffaton isn't going to worry much about a few uncroaked. Not enough to delay a war. Sure they lose a few more troops in the assault... but it is just a few, and they're confident they'll get a croakamancer out of the win, and they can uncroak any losses.

No, I just don't buy it.

They want Wanda out of Goodminton so she can't retreat through the portal.

It's fairly simple. If the Haffaton leadership knows about Wanda's fate re: Olive, then put Olive as far from Goodminton as possible, to prevent the possible outcome of capture. Then sit and wait. Eventually, Wanda will have to come out, and her capture is the only possible outcome barring the intervention of a third, powerful Side. Be ready for that, but don't obsess over it. Stay loose. Haffaton can view Wanda's Fate as a safety net for themselves, too. The longer she is not in their possession, the longer she will be in their possession.

But, in the end, I don't buy it. They aren't holding back because they are trying to cut losses. They're holding back to set a trap, or because they simply don't have to do anything at this point.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby Keighvin1 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:50 am

One nitpick first, they wouldn't be delaying a war, just a battle. Anyway, I think Haffaton could be planning a trap, but on the other hand, there is no reason to rush the battle. If they consolidate they're forces and wait out the uncroaked, that just makes the process easier. Haffaton likely sees this as a sure thing either way, but it rarely hurts to be patient and cautious.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 025

Postby Kreistor » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:15 pm

Keighvin1 wrote:One nitpick first, they wouldn't be delaying a war, just a battle. Anyway, I think Haffaton could be planning a trap, but on the other hand, there is no reason to rush the battle. If they consolidate they're forces and wait out the uncroaked, that just makes the process easier. Haffaton likely sees this as a sure thing either way, but it rarely hurts to be patient and cautious.


In war in Erfworld? You're right.

In our world, they called it "spoilage" in WW1. Losses to disease and weather. Equipment wears out and replacements are hard to find far from home. They're in a captured city, which wouldn't have the weight of war material necessary to support such an army, if it weren't for Rations and automatic repairs. Campaign season ends with Autumn, so you're on a clock. You don't want an army in the field in winter, but Erfworld seems to have no seasons so that detail is conveniently irrelevant. Goodminton is always snow locked, while GK is always in summer.

But the other problem is that they are burning upkeep. Note how Transylvito needs to loot nearby cities to maintain its coffers. These troops are inactive, which leaves Haffaton vulnerable elsewhere, against other enemies with such needs. They aren't looting and aren't generating income. If Haffaton can somehow keep itself solvent where other Sides could not, then we may have an author that has created a Side convenient to his story, instead of keeping to his standards.
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