Summer Update - 035

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Aprophilix » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:42 am

Am I the only one who feels sympathy for Stanley?

I'm aware he is, well, a Tool, but I can't help but feel that apart from his inferiority complex, he's a pretty decent guy. I think we may even see this revealed as the story goes on. From a writing standpoint, Rob seems to be humanizing him on a pretty consistent basis, which is usually indicative that we should start viewing him from a more sympathetic point of view.

Is he immature? Absolutely. But after watching his impressive skills as a combatant, his apparent prowess at battle leadership, and even his gratitude in situations where gratitude isn't at odds with his ego (such as with Jack, after the battle with Caesar), I'm really rooting for the little guy. I'd love to see him learn a few lessons, and then use his massive rock skills for good, or at least for Parson.
Aprophilix
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:04 pm

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby teratorn » Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:54 am

So Stanley is useful. We knew about feral bats, now we know about feral dwagons. This means there should be feral gwiffons. I wonder how those are tamed...

At a 1/200 chance, the mountains would be teeming with dwagons if they didn't either scatter or get eaten by something else (flocks of gwiffons?). If they can scatter that means there is a turn for wildlife to use its move.
User avatar
teratorn
 
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 6:33 am
Location: Algarve

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby moose o death » Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:47 am

Aprophilix wrote:Am I the only one who feels sympathy for Stanley?

I'm aware he is, well, a Tool, but I can't help but feel that apart from his inferiority complex, he's a pretty decent guy. I think we may even see this revealed as the story goes on. From a writing standpoint, Rob seems to be humanizing him on a pretty consistent basis, which is usually indicative that we should start viewing him from a more sympathetic point of view.

Is he immature? Absolutely. But after watching his impressive skills as a combatant, his apparent prowess at battle leadership, and even his gratitude in situations where gratitude isn't at odds with his ego (such as with Jack, after the battle with Caesar), I'm really rooting for the little guy. I'd love to see him learn a few lessons, and then use his massive rock skills for good, or at least for Parson.

no i like stanley, but i've met a real; life stanley from parsons's position and i sympathise with anyone who wants to kill him too.

the most concise story along that line

i'm setting up the PA system, i've got a cable tester hooked up as BGM (background music) and i'm checking the paging is muting the BGM input. in walks mr pseudonym, starts asking me if putting the speaker higher up would make it easier to hear from more places....it'as already 20 feet in the air so no it just makes it further away, he then proceeds to explain what he means by placing his water bottle...uncapped...onto the pa system i'm still installing.

i tell him that's not a good idea

he responds with, " nah it's fine, i drop stuff all the f'n time!"

the brain to mouth filter in me stops my next sentence which would have been "more reason you should get it off the PA"

he then proceeds to demonstrate where the speaker should go with the bottle cap representing the speaker and the bottle as the pole. he is doing so with one hand and pushing the bottle along the top of the PA system in the process. finally stopping when the bottle is 1/3rd of the way over the edge to falling off.

then makes a passing remark about snorting coke, asks for some more impossible features, then walks off to get high again.

leaving me with an overwhelming sense of "how the f*#k did he get left in charge of his own breathing, let alone this business?" short answer is blood.

point of this story, i like stanley, but if you have to deal with people LIKE stanley on any kind of permament basis, you will project all of your hate for that other idiot into this character.
http://moosetech.blogspot.com/ my video game art. in easy to read blog form. swing on by. laugh at my spelling.
User avatar
moose o death
 
Posts: 666
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 4:17 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Lawence of Awabia » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:10 am

Here's my thought regarding Stanley after reading this update:

THIS is Parson's next, big battle. Stanley, under it all, is not a bad guy. He's titanically insecure, and needs guidance from those around him. Stanley, basically, is a kid. Wanda IS bad, and all of Gobwin Knob's villainy has been a result of Wanda's guidance. Now, Wanda's out getting her kicks with her decrypted horde of loyal slaves, and not around town to manage the tool, so Stanley-sitting duty turns to Parson, and he's got the opportunity to reform the Tool, build his confidence, and make him a better person. I predict Parson's relationship with Stanley will be a major theme in the next installment.
Lawence of Awabia
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 10:31 am

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:17 am

Aprophilix,

No you are not the only one who finds Stanley sympathetic. At one time I even thought the guy was being wrongfully blamed for Faq's destruction and just hated because he was not Noble. The authors confirmed that no, he really did destroy Faq, but even so he did it because Erfworld is a world of war, and all he wants is to set his mark on it. You just gotta have a soft spot for ambition not confirmed by talent.

And who knows what's going to happen story-wise, I kept saying that boop will go down and maybe like someone suggested we will even see a Rocking Dragon, Dancing Decrypted melee sometime (but that would probably be Book 3 at the earliest so don't hold your breath; nonetheless, when/if it happens it will be awesome).

As for mooseofdeath's comment, yes that makes sense. But it often is the case that the more popular/charismatic fictional characters are the biggest jerks in their corner of fictiondom. Look at Wanda; not a jerk by far, true, but kinda pure evil. As long as she is not our problem though, interesting to watch.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby moose o death » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:53 am

edit: did someone delete a post?

no the odds were 1:200 per turn of a mountain hex in the minty mountains. there is 6-700 hexes stanley can reach and return from in one turn, that means there is a 3:600 chance of a dwagon popping that turn, more or less could pop each turn but those are the odds. as demonstrated by stanley bringing home two new dwagons, on the first turn of trying this tactic. if they were close enough to GK stanley could bring six of them home in one turn it's all going to boil down to luck on the day.

if we assume they average 1.5 per turn to be generous, and that story two does start 90 turns after the battle for GK, then in the remaining 82 turns they will get a further 123 dwagons.

that is far more powerful a force than anyone else could raise in 82 turns. and a fearsome sight if you ever saw one. wanda's decrypted would be thoroughly outclassed.
http://moosetech.blogspot.com/ my video game art. in easy to read blog form. swing on by. laugh at my spelling.
User avatar
moose o death
 
Posts: 666
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 4:17 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Slowness » Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:11 am

I kind of interpreted it as a guaranteed minimum of 1 or 2 dragons per turn, while the odds are in favor of three, and I have a hunch the Random Number God may occasionally give Stanly a few more...

Oh, I almost forgot!

I foresee Stanly beating Wanda someday... Because, of course: Rock beats Scissors...
Slowness
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:24 am

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby raphfrk » Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:35 am

name lips wrote:I like this line of questioning, though. Parson apparently can't follow orders he doesn't understand -- unlike most units, who instinctively know exactly what their Duty is.


Warlords don't have to obey orders if they feel it is the overlords best interests not to. Parson obviously thinks (or thought at the time) that his time was best spent studying in the library. Now that he knows that there is a reason to do a tour, presumably, he will have to obey (except when he decides that it is an emergency or something).

One slight problem with the plan is that it should be much more effective. If dwagons have a 0.5% pop rate, and Stanley hasn't gone out in the last 10 turns and the coverage is 700 hexes, then they should find 10*700*0.005 = 35 dwagons.

One possibility is that the pop rate depends on density. Maybe, the feral dwagons attack each other to keep their numbers down. Alternatively, they have an instinct to move away from cities. There could also be a malthusian effect, where the vast majority of dwagons that pop starves as there isn't enough prey to keep them alive (and they are killed by other dwagons when they are young and weak).

Also, I wonder, does the hammer give Stanley "unmatched" dance fighting skills?

moose o death wrote:also parson having to actually manage the city physically is interesting, completely removed from earth's version of management. which is essentially hire a PA to do your job while you play golf.


I wonder if he can delegate it :).

it seems the eyemancer link dropping out must have compromised those eyebooks, but they should never have stopped using them, just stop using them for real orders. put a few twolls on eyebook detail..except they may not possess reading skills


It is unclear if that is the reason. I think the comms part of it is Thinkamancy, and Charlie has the ability to hack it. Also, there is no guarantee that Charlie can actually listen into conversations that he doesn't initiate.

Gez wrote:
random_guy wrote:Seems like Parson doesn't know if cities can pop casters http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F043a.jpg.

He knows they do, Sizemore told him so: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F078.jpg


The question is the mechanism of how they pop. It might just be that they are massively expensive, and it is more cost effective to pop lots of weaker units first. Once you are defense covered, you can then spend the resources to pop a caster. In fact, maybe they work like wonders of the world in civ (perhaps even including the max number per world restriction).
raphfrk
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 828
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 10:38 am

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby LordDarksea » Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:00 am

The question is the mechanism of how they pop. It might just be that they are massively expensive, and it is more cost effective to pop lots of weaker units first. Once you are defense covered, you can then spend the resources to pop a caster.


How many turns did that first dwagon at the end of book one take to pop? Obviously, as many turns as were needed to have it pop at the right moment for the joke, so popping at the speed of plot. That aside, popping the dragon took more than one turn. Presumably popping a castor would take more than one turn as well, and i would imagine more than a dwagon requires. just as a random number, it might take twenty turns and lots from the treasury to produce a caster. As such, it is far more useful to get the base units in first.

Going back to what Rob said about this being the longest update yet, it felt like three updates worth! I've got to say these summer updates are great fun, apart from not being able to wait for book two to begin, i don't want these to stop. Maybe there's a way to train me as a lookamancer and send Rob, Jamie and guest-artists through hexes so i can get both.....

:p
LordDarksea
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 2:44 pm

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Grunthos » Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:40 am

There could also be a malthusian effect, where the vast majority of dwagons that pop starves as there isn't enough prey to keep them alive (and they are killed by other dwagons when they are young and weak).


Given Erfworld's mechanics, I think this is probably expressed more concisely as: dwagons cost upkeep, but feral dwagons (or gwiffons, or whatever) have nothing to support them, so they disband at the first upkeep step after they pop.

The above would imply that hexes do not have *intrinsic* supply... I don't keep close enough track of Erfworld's rules to know if that's been explicitly contradicted somewhere.

Also: if Stanley's red has 56 move, and he can reach 6-700 Minty Mountain hexes in one turn (i.e. with 23 move out and 23 move back), and mountain hexes cost 2 or 3 move to enter... we can safely conclude that the majority of the hexes surrounding Gobwin Knob in all directions are mountain hexes. Consider: If all of the hexes surrounding GK were all regular mountain hexes (2 move to enter), and he has to get out and back in one turn, then he could get a maximum of 14 hexes away from GK. Stanley can depart GK in six directions. Each of the six directions would then yield (1+2+3+4+...+14) = 105 hexes; all six together gives 630. Of course, not all of these are mountain hexes, so Stanley can increase his coverage by flying through "valleys" at 1 move per hex. But, if one or more of the six conic sections was entirely (or even mostly) devoid of mountains, it is unlikely that he would be able to reach 6-700 dwagon-popping hexes in one turn with 56 move.
Grunthos
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 3:55 pm

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:42 am

So, Vinnie tames the feral bats, Stanley tames feral dwagons- so who is going tame the girls?

I can understand why Stanley is so mad that Parson wasn't following his orders. Wanda has a huge army and a questionable loyalty. Any sign that Parson - a unit summoned by Wanda - can ignore orders without consequences is making his position even weaker. The fact that there is no heir and that disobedient units disband is what keeps him in charge.

On a side note, Stanley should order a bunch of new warlords and send them levelling with the dwagons. A number of level 2 or 3s that can lead dwagon stacks increases the power of his loyal forces and they can rule the new cities. A level 5 in his capital would be a good replacement for Ansom, just in case. And some new hobgobwins with dance fight abilities would be a good thing, too.
I love uncroaked Dora. I love an anonymous friend even more.

Only one man has understood me, and even he has not!
User avatar
Welf von Ehrwald
 
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:57 pm

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Taznak » Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:44 am

Pointyleaf wrote:Hmm. A dragon or two per turn is pretty nice. *Very* nice, actually - in a couple weeks Stanley'll have rebuilt the dragon army he lost to Caesar.

I believe Stanley lost the bigger share of his dwagons to Jillian+Vinny+Ansom+Archons?
User avatar
Taznak
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:18 am

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby moose o death » Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:00 am

Grunthos wrote:Given Erfworld's mechanics, I think this is probably expressed more concisely as: dwagons cost upkeep, but feral dwagons (or gwiffons, or whatever) have nothing to support them, so they disband at the first upkeep step after they pop.

this was my thinking, not that reason, i had no reason, but i think the dwagon is a single turn existence unless tamed. it's a high level encounter for training purposes in most situations but stanley's tool makes them loyal to a side
http://moosetech.blogspot.com/ my video game art. in easy to read blog form. swing on by. laugh at my spelling.
User avatar
moose o death
 
Posts: 666
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 4:17 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Spot » Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:20 am

After re-reading this latest update, I'm shocked that I missed the obvious on the first reading.

It was subtle, and delivered in a low-key style to disguise it among the seemingly-more-important stuff... ...but, basically, Stanley's imminent death (and maybe Wanda's also) was just announced in this update.

Here's the key (as I see it):

1. Observed Fact: Stanley has zero qualms about rudely and immediately correcting Parson every time he says something even slightly mistaken.

2. Observed Fact: Parson said that tamed feral dwagons are loyal to THE HAMMER. Stanley did not correct Parson when he made that statement.

3. Logical Assumption: So... the dwagons are not Loyal to Stanley. Not to Gobwin Knob. Not to Gobwin Knob's (nonexistant) heir. But loyal to the HAMMER itself... and incidentally situationally-loyal to Stanley because he wields the hammer.

4. One assumes that the same underlying logic of loyalty applies to the Arkenpliers as well. Wanda's army being loyal to the Arkenpliers, and situationally-loyal to her because she wields them.

5. If Parson can figure out a way to not be either disbanded or designated as Barbarian when Stanley gets croaked, then all he has to do is reach down and pick up the hammer and he suddenly commands the dwagon force.

6. Pure Speculation: Book II will be Wanda (having rebelled against and killed Stanley) vs. Parson and his dwagons?
User avatar
Spot
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:18 pm

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Spot » Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:22 am

moose o death wrote:
Grunthos wrote:Given Erfworld's mechanics, I think this is probably expressed more concisely as: dwagons cost upkeep, but feral dwagons (or gwiffons, or whatever) have nothing to support them, so they disband at the first upkeep step after they pop.

this was my thinking, not that reason, i had no reason, but i think the dwagon is a single turn existence unless tamed. it's a high level encounter for training purposes in most situations but stanley's tool makes them loyal to a side



You both make good sense.

Poor dwagons. If a dwagon pops as a random encounter in the Minty Mountains, and no one is there to hear it, did it really "pop" at all?
I shamelessly stole my avatar from Cloudbreaker :D
User avatar
Spot
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:18 pm

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Hari Seldon » Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:45 am

Poor dwagons. If a dwagon pops as a random encounter in the Minty Mountains, and no one is there to hear it, did it really "pop" at all?


Perhaps. They might randomly fly around in their "territory" until someone converts or croaks them. That would put them better in line with "Barbarians" like Jillian. Or they could be like a randomly-located version of units that get "frozen" in cities that lose their Overlord with no Heir, and be like Schrodinger's Cat ... their fate not decided until observed (others come into the city).




Stanley is building Dragon Army!!! And the enemy is Down (from us mounted on Dragons)! Parson needs to figure out how to get one of the Dwagons to fly him before they have to fight (somebody).

And it's very clear that something about Parson's no-free-will-for-Summoned/popped-unit is messing up with him not Disbanding when he failed his Duty.
Hari Seldon
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:45 pm

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:00 am

Hari Seldon,

well here's an idea on how it may be that a dwagon could lift Parson. Suppose some unit on GK's side gives bonuses, a-la Warlords, to dwagon stats, including say lifting capacity. Then maybe if Parson and said unit share a dwagon, that dwagon could lift them both (but not Parson alone). Also, that unit giving bonuses to dwagons is most likely Stanley.

C-mon, it's counterintuitive enough to work.

Spot,

the way I see it your logical assumption is wrong. The wielder of a Tool must be atuned to it in order to access its full power (dwagon taming, decrypt control etc). Story-wise, there's no indication that Parson could just pickup the Hammer and rock on.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Spot » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:08 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Spot,

the way I see it your logical assumption is wrong. The wielder of a Tool must be atuned to it in order to access its full power (dwagon taming, decrypt control etc). Story-wise, there's no indication that Parson could just pickup the Hammer and rock on.



True... ...but, he wouldn't need to be able to use the full power of the hammer.

*Taming* feral dwagons requires attunement. However, merely controlling dwagons that were previously-tamed by an attuned hammer-wielder would seem to only require possession of the hammer itself, not attunement.

I'm thinking that we're talking two different actions, with different requirements.
I shamelessly stole my avatar from Cloudbreaker :D
User avatar
Spot
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:18 pm

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:25 am

Meh, what can I say. It is possible, sure ... it would just seem a bit weird. After all, the Arkenpliers seemed to be nothing but a good melee weapon with bonuses against Uncroaked, to Ansom. Then again, maybe even he could have used the Pliers to control hordes of uncroaked, that someone else made, and just chose not to. The possibility is there, but calling it a logical assumption is a bit of a stretch. We know nothing to support this, so it's just speculation.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby mutecebu » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:33 am

Parson put down the urge to ask what other possible hammer he could be talking about.


I'm sure this man knows. http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll365/debstar236/mpith.jpg
User avatar
mutecebu
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 4:53 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 6 guests