Summer Updates - 037

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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby zz_tophat » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:12 pm

Standard common sense for production orders in city production based strategy games is you have lower level cities focus all their assets on growing larger or low-cost unit production for rushing other low-level cities. It is never good idea to stall the growth of a city to produce a super-powered unit or structure even if it is game changing like a Wonder in the civilization games, until the production capacity of that city is high enough to build it quickly.

I am curious what the Don's reasoning is.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby gameboy1234 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:20 pm

Very interesting.

I think I'll have to agree with Jillian. Popping an heir now seems foolish. A city should have more defenses and more troops before trying to worry about what you'll do if one unit gets lost. Survival first, then future planning. At worst, if Jillian gets croaked, then one of the nobles from Transylvito can "conquer" Faq. I wonder if you can ally such that another side gets your stuff?

I wonder if Jillian's change to a royal will change her fighting abilities. Can she still fight and lead as well as she did before? Or are those abilities atrophied along with her appearance? A fighting queen mum would be interesting to see. She'll have a great hat, and a greatsword.

I wonder if even Charlie knows about the pliers. He seemed to know something about the volcano-dirt-trap, but could he guess what the pliers would do? Or can he spy on GK with the dish somehow? Charlie is Erfworld's international man of mystery.

Really, I can't guess where this is going. Faq will be a weak client-state at the opening of Book 2? I assumed it would be all out war with everybody, but the exact dynamics elude me. It should make for a dramatic opening.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:37 pm

Why would Don King ask for a FAQ Heir? Some guesses:

1) Royal Hostage?
In our world, vassal states often left their children w/ more powerful states as hostages, and also to allow the children to be trained in the manner the master rulers saw fit. However, Erfworld rulers don't view heirs as children, so I'm not sure what the value of such a hostage might be.

2) Prophecy fulfillment?
Perhaps Transylvito has a predictamancer who has made their own prophecies about the Heir of the Queen of FAQ.

3) Bait?
Keep FAQ small and tempting, then crush Stanley's forces when they try to take it.
If Jillian is allowed to build up too quickly, she will either go on the offensive (and likely die) or cause the city to be too well-defended, thus requiring a substantial force to conquer it.
If Stanley's force is too large, TV might not be able to easily overwhelm it.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Steve-D » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:44 pm

So why did Don King want FAQ rebuilt rather then just taking the capital sites himself? It's still not clear. Presumably the heir is connected to this.

There is one less obvious (but probably equally important) reason why Jillian won't want an heir, and that is the relationship she had to her father. She probably isn't keen on popping an heir on the eve of battle, only to find out he's a poet.

Side note; does muscle-mass have no influence on stats, then? It's just a sign that tells you subtle information about the unit?
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Graydon » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:55 pm

Steve-D wrote:So why did Don King want FAQ rebuilt rather then just taking the capital sites himself? It's still not clear. Presumably the heir is connected to this.


Well, if royal-led sides can split, maybe they can merge.

Don King is re-thinking leaving Cesar as his heir; he had a terrible time with his own heirs, and may be, based on his discussion with Jilian, reconsidering the utility of royalty.

There's no evidence that you get to keep the local native unit types if you conquer the place, but presumably you do if you merge via "royal marriage".

Aerial units are much more important for anyone dealing with Stanley post-hammer than they would have been pre-hammer, and Transylvito is already almost all flying types. They would benefit substantially from some flying heavies.

So, Jillian pops an heir to Faq. Don King makes that heir his heir, and the sides merge. Don King remains senior king; Jillian remains Queen of Faq, or maybe they're both royal for both kingdoms and had better get along. We have an explanation for why the idea makes Cesar so angry; he's going to stop being heir.

Side note; does muscle-mass have no influence on stats, then? It's just a sign that tells you subtle information about the unit?


Was Jillian ever actually a warlord unit? I don't think we know for sure if she was a barbarian royal or a barbarian warlord. I suspect it's a completely cosmetic thing; it's not like Webinar looked particular buff, for instance.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby DevilDan » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:58 pm

I missed the part where it makes any sense whatsoever for Don King to make a Faq unit his heir.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby BarGamer » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:09 pm

Lots of delicious, meaty, info in this update. Thanks for going with the Vinny route, it was definitely not boring.

Signamancy = physical appearance. Oh WOW. There's just so many ways you can go with that, upto and including changing costumes, Charlie's non-appearance, and how Parson appears to be changing body shape. The inevitable mind/matter debates would make this forum EXPLODE.

Jillian ordered to pop a Royal Heir. Regardless of what Jillian is asked to do post-Heir, it makes sense. If she's asked to take the field, TV has a young Erfling who's "in debt" to TV. If she's asked to stay home and keep house, she has an Heir who can possibly take the field, and inherit TV as well. From a mechanics or strategic point of view, it's obscenely stupid. Unless having a female unit and a male unit in the same room for a turn mysteriously lowers the cost? Like Stanley and Wanda did?
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Infidel » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:17 pm

Justyn wrote:
joosy wrote:FYI: for those who are wondering:
OTOH= On the Other Hand
KIBO= Knowledge in, Bull<boop> Out.


Kibo is also a Japanese word for "hope", it might not be what's intended here though.


kibou is Japanese for hope. kibo is scale. As in, intergalactic scale. The long vowel is important. It's the difference between calling someone a great advisor or a great anus.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby DevilDan » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:27 pm

Don King has long plans in mind, it would appear. Predicting his plans from just a few hints is what I'd call a fool's errand.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby joosy » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:39 pm

DevilDan wrote:Don King has long plans in mind, it would appear. Predicting his plans from just a few hints is what I'd call a fool's errand.

heh- maybe that's what they should rename this forum :)
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Glenn » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:46 pm

Does it always take any side 60 turns to pop a Royal heir? If a 'normal' Royal could be popped in 20 or 30, then perhaps Don King wants Jillian to create an unusually talented Royal.
This move suggests to me that Don is making very long term plans, and believes Faq can stay out of the war at least until the new heir pops. By keeping Jillian's army much smaller than it would normally be, he is insuring that Jillian won't attack Stanley until much later than she would have otherwise have done. He's holding Faq in reserve, while putting the burden of fighting Stanley on Transylvito and the other members of the formal Royal alliance. In 60 turns, Jillian will have a new Royal who can level faster than a normal unit. Assuming she is still at peace, and the Don doesn't make some new demand on her, she will then start building her army as fast as she can, while giving her new heir as much opportunity as she can to level. Jillian would find it very ironic if her heir were 'the perfect philosopher prince' that her father wanted her to be, and yet a philosopher prince may be exactly what Faq needs. Such a prince might have a better chance of finding and attuning to an Arkentool.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby DevilDan » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:03 pm

joosy wrote:
DevilDan wrote:Don King has long plans in mind, it would appear. Predicting his plans from just a few hints is what I'd call a fool's errand.

heh- maybe that's what they should rename this forum :)


Or would that be "Tool's Errand?"

Glenn, that was precisely my point. Don King isn't just interested in Faq's troops, at least nor right now. He's got something a bit more complex in mind for the moment.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby imgran » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:21 pm

Glenn wrote:Does it always take any side 60 turns to pop a Royal heir? If a 'normal' Royal could be popped in 20 or 30, then perhaps Don King wants Jillian to create an unusually talented Royal.


Or perhaps, being a low level city still rebuilding itself, FAQ isn't exactly at peak production.

This move suggests to me that Don is making very long term plans, and believes Faq can stay out of the war at least until the new heir pops. By keeping Jillian's army much smaller than it would normally be, he is insuring that Jillian won't attack Stanley until much later than she would have otherwise have done.


that might be the best theory in the thread so far.

He's holding Faq in reserve, while putting the burden of fighting Stanley on Transylvito and the other members of the formal Royal alliance. In 60 turns, Jillian will have a new Royal who can level faster than a normal unit. Assuming she is still at peace, and the Don doesn't make some new demand on her, she will then start building her army as fast as she can, while giving her new heir as much opportunity as she can to level. Jillian would find it very ironic if her heir were 'the perfect philosopher prince' that her father wanted her to be, and yet a philosopher prince may be exactly what Faq needs. Such a prince might have a better chance of finding and attuning to an Arkentool.


Don King might have this plan, but Jillian knows exactly why it doesn't make sense.

Stanley, Wanda and Ansom all know precisely where FAQ is and how weak it is. Once FAQ units appear in the battlefield at all, Stanley will take to the air and solve the whole problem, very quickly -- if the Deathface Army doesn't get there first.
Last edited by imgran on Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby nerf-dweller » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:26 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Why would Don King ask for a FAQ Heir? Some guesses:

1) Royal Hostage?


Perhaps. But I get the feeling Erfworld doesn't work that way.


2) Prophecy fulfillment?
Perhaps Transylvito has a predictamancer who has made their own prophecies about the Heir of the Queen of FAQ.
[\quote]

Doubtful. FAQ wasn't know about until after it feel, and it's units scatter to the wilds. But perhaps a more general, vague prediction.

3) Bait?
Keep FAQ small and tempting, then crush Stanley's forces when they try to take it.
If Jillian is allowed to build up too quickly, she will either go on the offensive (and likely die) or cause the city to be too well-defended, thus requiring a substantial force to conquer it.
If Stanley's force is too large, TV might not be able to easily overwhelm it.



I doubt bait is the reason. FAQ is remote and for the most part unknown or still considered a legend. And most forces still don't have any reason to know that FAQ has been re-founded. They are in a perfect situation to build up forces quickly and efficiently w/o having to worry about defence (for the time being). FAQ could be the hammer to crush GK forces against whatever anvil TV and allies set up.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby imgran » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:32 pm

Question: Is it reasonable to question the assumption that Don King is playing straight here?

what I mean is, there's no guarantee that the whole purpose of this exercise isn't simply because Jillian herself represented a disappointing heir prospect. She would be completely unsuited to inherit Transylvito herself, but she can still play her usual story role as a willing, easily-betrayed dupe doing dirty work for greater powers than she. A small satellite side completely under your thumb can still help you solve an heir problem if you're willing to be brutally practical about things. And brutal practicality is the hallmark of the vampire mob.

Basically, Jillian goes to Faq and despite her protests, is ordered to pop heirs. Constantly. Until she gets one that Don King finds suitable. And when you get a winner, destroy FAQ, and turn the heir. Thus defeating the unpredictability with heirs that Don King was having a great deal of trouble with. If the heir is unsuitable, find a way to get rid of them and start over, or simply turn them and use them as warlords based on whatever they're suited to do. In this way for the price of a few gemstones you dramatically increase the potential of your brain trust and gain a pool of talent to recruit from to guarantee you don't just have to take whatever warlord is handy when you need something difficult done.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby Thydron » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:35 pm

maybe don king is just using jillian to pop an heir in order to preserve / rediscover a royal lineage, then going to kill jillian off and have the heir poped under him take charge?
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby imgran » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:35 pm

Thydron wrote:maybe don king is just using jillian to pop an heir in order to preserve / rediscover a royal lineage, then going to kill jillian off and have the heir poped under him take charge?

Which is..... exactly... what I just said one post above yours. Except I actually explained the game logic of why it actually made sense for TV to do it that way.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby DevilDan » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:39 pm

All this still doesn't explain why he wouldn't have forced Jill to reveal the location of Faq and be done with it or croak her when Faq was in sight and have Caesar create new TV cities at the Faq sites.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby raphfrk » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:41 pm

moose o death wrote:we have not enough information at our disposal to make the assumption popping an heir is anything but standardised. no matter what your capital is doing an heir is for a royal overlord and no city has more than one of those. so for now we can assume it's standardised as the unit can't be popped based on buildings or units present.


Also, a caster might be made the same way. If a caster was 40 turns, could only be popped in the capital and you couldn't decide the type, then it would explain why sides don't have many.

MarbitChow wrote:Why would Don King ask for a FAQ Heir? Some guesses:

1) Royal Hostage?
In our world, vassal states often left their children w/ more powerful states as hostages, and also to allow the children to be trained in the manner the master rulers saw fit. However, Erfworld rulers don't view heirs as children, so I'm not sure what the value of such a hostage might be.



There was a discussion on the other forum that Banhammer actually cared for Jillian and he made sure she wasn't at Faq when the attack happened.

It is possible that Rulers naturally care about their Heirs. Ofc, Don King didn't seem to care much about his. OTOH, it appeared that it was unusual to favour low level nobles like Caesar over an Heir.

3) Bait?
Keep FAQ small and tempting, then crush Stanley's forces when they try to take it.
If Jillian is allowed to build up too quickly, she will either go on the offensive (and likely die) or cause the city to be too well-defended, thus requiring a substantial force to conquer it.
If Stanley's force is too large, TV might not be able to easily overwhelm it.


The trick with keeping a vassal loyal is to keep them dependent on you.

Glenn wrote:In 60 turns, Jillian will have a new Royal who can level faster than a normal unit.


Maybe he will only care about philosophy. If so, his leveling rate will be slow :p.
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Re: Summer Updates - 037

Postby teratorn » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:59 pm

DevilDan wrote:All this still doesn't explain why he wouldn't have forced Jill to reveal the location of Faq and be done with it or croak her when Faq was in sight and have Caesar create new TV cities at the Faq sites.


Jillian seems more loyal than Caeser would be.
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