Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby 0beron » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:41 pm

Kreistor wrote:We do not know that abandoning a Side is even possible. You can Turn, but there is no evidence of voluntarily becoming a Barbarian. If possible, any Caster in the MK would be able to just go Barbarian and stay there, so Rulers would ban the Portal. So no, I do not believe you can choose to abandon a Side.


Good point, but I don't think that your point about the MK necessarily holds weight. In the MK, casters have to create their own rations or trade for them, so I'm not sure living there is entirely PREFERABLE when you could have upkeep paid by a capital side instead. (of course this would also depend on your type, since common caster types would be less likely to find contracts)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby drachefly » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:45 pm

Concerning exponentials: Bland is 100% right. Kriestor is somewhere around 350% wrong.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Dante » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:52 pm

Oberon wrote:
SHolmes wrote:Don't forget, you can only make a stack of up to 8 units. Which is what you see in the art (+1 for Wanda).
I think it's actually +1 for the mount. I'd speculate that mounts don't count towards the 8 stack limit, or you'd only be able to have a stack of 4 plus their mounts. And I think we've seen larger stacks of mounted units before.

We've seen larger stacks of unmounted units. The archer warlord who fought Sylvia in the last arc went into battle with a stack of a dozen knights.

It's heavily implied by the first book that mounts do count towards the bonus limit, though. Remember when Stanley flies off to start a new side at FAQ, and he can only take three knights? It's clearly because he wants to concentrate his stack bonus, and the four dwagons count as four units toward it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Kreistor » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:45 pm

drachefly wrote:Concerning exponentials: Bland is 100% right. Kriestor is somewhere around 350% wrong.


exponential.JPG
exponential.JPG (27.99 KiB) Viewed 797 times

exp2.JPG
exp2.JPG (25.43 KiB) Viewed 797 times


Yeah nothing like two lines at all.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby 0beron » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:12 pm

...Would now be an annoying time to point out that Rob isn't a mathematician, and that whatever you 2 are discussing is probably WAY more complex than what I expect Rob has in mind for Erfworld's Mechanics?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 pm

0beron wrote:...Would now be an annoying time to point out that Rob isn't a mathematician, and that whatever you 2 are discussing is probably WAY more complex than what I expect Rob has in mind for Erfworld's Mechanics?


Thankfully, Kreistor's blunders are so basic that I don't need any fancy math to debunk him.

Kreistor wrote:Yeah nothing like two lines at all.


No mr. Fish, this is about exponential being "alike" two lines with 5% error. Let's look at your chart number 1. That line which is horizontal, is it 0 by any chance? Wherever that line is used as an approximation, you approximate exp(x) (which is always above 0) by 0. That is, your approximation has 100% relative error (if we define relative error like (exp(x)-approx(x))/exp(x)).

It's not 0? Fine, ok. Let's look at the graph closely.

Spoiler: show
Image


I've marked one place where the function to approximate is way, way larger than your approximation. I've been generous in assuming your line is at 1E16. Even so, your approximation would be 2.5 times smaller than what it is supposed to approximate with 5% error.

What about the second chart you presented? Your claim would require that the difference between the exponential and the approximation should be roughly a twentieth of the value of the exponential at that point. What's the value of the exponential at the point where the lines meet? I can't tell, but it's around 3. A twentieth of that is roughly 0.15. That is a tenth and a half of a tenth of the length on the height dimension of the unit segment. That distance looks surely larger. And don't make me use the info "tangent at 0.25" etc to compute the exact error, which would only strengthen my case.

EDIT:
Spoiler: show
Incidentally, your "tangent at x" series are labeled inconsistently. One appears labeled by the point of intercept with the exponential, which is the proper way to use that label, the other appears to use the intercept with the horizontal line of 0 height which is something else.


Keep trying. It will never erase just how many blunders you've done so far, nor how you acted arrogantly and continue to pursue that behaviour in a vain attempt to save face.

drachefly wrote:Concerning exponentials: Bland is 100% right. Kriestor is somewhere around 350% wrong.


As is obvious to anyone whose engineering education managed to teach them the healthy habit of sanity checks. And will be obvious to anyone even if they never opened a calculus textbook.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Kreistor » Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:15 pm

BLANDCorporation wrote:A lot of unsupported insults snipped.


Invitation to Flame War declined. Have a nice day!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:21 pm

Sorry darling, this bit alone from your posts is enough to disqualify you from claiming the moral high ground:

Kreistor wrote:Sorry, but I'm just going to mock your ignorance of its use in Math, Physics, and Engineering. It's basic, it's useful, and it's applicable.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:07 pm

:lol: Never gets old!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Housellama » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:12 pm

0beron wrote:...Would now be an annoying time to point out that Rob isn't a mathematician, and that whatever you 2 are discussing is probably WAY more complex than what I expect Rob has in mind for Erfworld's Mechanics?


They aren't talking about Erfworld itself, they are talking about rules for Erfsim.


BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Kreistor wrote: I know you're impressing yourself with this math, but you aren't capable of analyzing it, because I can't give you the specifics anymore. I haven't used it in over two decades, so can't train you right now. Everything you're doing is Strawman because you're not approaching it from anything except my flawed memory and that's forcing you to make a lot of assumptions, and I can't give you the math you're demanding, because it's locked away in some textbook that's older than many readers here.


In other words, you attempted to make yourself sound smart by appealing to some misremembered old info you picked up somewhere, and now that you're called on the mistake, cannot produce the details. You laugh at my "ignorance", but are yourself ignorant when pressed for details. But at least you're happy.


Funny, I seem to remember being accused of the same thing by Kreistor a while back. Using 'bad information' from sources I couldn't directly quote. I think at the time I had the decency to admit that I wasn't an expert. I also had the decency to apologize. Course, I could be misremembering. You know how bad memory can be.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby raphfrk » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:18 pm

0beron wrote: This may imply that there can be Nobility even when a side is not Royal, interesting possibility.


That could be how Royal sides come into existence. If Erfworld started with no cities, then the first barbarians who found capital sites would create non-Royal sides. If there was a chance that an Overlord could pop a Noble Heir and a chance that a Noble side could pop a Royal Heir, then over time, there would be many Royal sides (esp since Royal units get extra bonuses/faster leveling).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Housellama » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:45 pm

raphfrk wrote:
0beron wrote: This may imply that there can be Nobility even when a side is not Royal, interesting possibility.


That could be how Royal sides come into existence. If Erfworld started with no cities, then the first barbarians who found capital sites would create non-Royal sides. If there was a chance that an Overlord could pop a Noble Heir and a chance that a Noble side could pop a Royal Heir, then over time, there would be many Royal sides (esp since Royal units get extra bonuses/faster leveling).


That's an interesting thought. Where do Royals come from? From what we've seen so far, I think Royals are a 'separate' breed. Either a side is Royal or you aren't. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much behind their Titanic mandate claim. I don't see a non-royal side producing a Royal.

For clarification, Raph, there is no "noble" side. There is only Royal and non-Royal. A noble is a Warlord popped by a Royal side anywhere except the Capital.

Still. An interesting question. Were Royal sides just created Royal, or is there a way to become Royal?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Whispri » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:21 pm

I honestly don't see why the number of Units in Wanda's stack needs an explanation beyond one like 'tactical flexibility'.

On the nobility front, it occurs to me that 'Lady' isn't a unique title, there's only one 'Countess of Firestone' for example. There's only one 'Lady Wanda Firebaugh' admittedly, but she doesn't have a City mixed into her title and nor has anyone else with a title such Lord, Lady, Sir or Dame. That may mean a lot to some.

On the Royalty front, what if Barbarian Warlords found Capital Sites and created Sides... before the Titans got around to creating Royal Sides?

Balerion wrote:I don't know why you would assume anyone was given a chance to turn. This entire circumstance reads as a lightning quick raid, with no one having time to react. Firebaugh barely managed to save Wanda, where he would have written out an entire note on proper paper if there had been a drawn out fight first (just to give one clear example of how we know that didn't happen).

This was raiders killing whoever they came across as soon as they found them. Level 3 and 4 adept class casters are common enough that no one is going to bother with the risks of attacking to capture instead of kill. Firebaugh himself was not given the ceremonial execution for an Overlord (a tradition we can infer from Ossomer's disgust at the downing of the tower), instead being cut down where he stood. Goodminton and everyone there should be assumed dead unless details come out that call that into question.

It does read like a fast and furious assault, no fight through the City or through the Tunnels (or Tunnels dug if there were none) before hitting the Garrison, just crashing right in, an air assault being by far the easiest way to do so.

However, that doesn't preclude the taking of prisoners, Ansom was captured pretty boop quickly as I recall. And if it's a Royal Side that did this I doubt such insults to the concept of honour would apply. Scum like Ossomer may happily waste the lives of their followers for such stupid reasons when facing other Royals, but for the sake of an Overlord?

Kreistor wrote:I think the "ownership" here is in question. Wanda had to get permission to buy clothes. She had the Scrolls, but they may not have been technically hers if they were bought with GK schmuckers, only in her care. Stanley was gone, and couldn't confirm that he knew of the scrolls existence. Wanda may not have felt obligated to inform Parson the scrolls were part of GK inventory.

I don't see any reason why they couldn't. Seems a petty exception. They can ally, so I see no reason why they couldn't Turn.

We do not know that abandoning a Side is even possible. You can Turn, but there is no evidence of voluntarily becoming a Barbarian. If possible, any Caster in the MK would be able to just go Barbarian and stay there, so Rulers would ban the Portal. So no, I do not believe you can choose to abandon a Side.

By that argument someone could hire a freelancer then later walk into said freelancer's home and grab their stuff to refurnish their own. If she is indeed an allied Barbarian, she's paid by Gobwin Knob. That money is hers, to do with as she likes. The same goes to money earned in the Magick Kingdom in her free time. If she spends all her spare money on clothes and scrolls, those clothes and scrolls are hers, her property, not Stanley's and certainly not Parson's. It's no different from granting a natural ally money to pop fresh members of their Tribe.

... The difference between a Ruler and a subject is petty to you? The Ruler is the Side. Never has a Ruler been seen to turn. Never has a Side been seen to surrender. And a non-Capital Side, is still a Side.

Wanda is a Dethroned Ruler, the last Overlord of fallen Goodminton. She is not random Commander #83960782581 as you seem to think. If those Casters were caught in the field when their Side was destroyed, they'd disband. Which is not the case with Wanda, who was promoted to heir at great expense and who Ruled a Capital Side for thirty seconds or so.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Oberon » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:46 pm

Lamech wrote:Would [Wanda] know the differance? A captured unit seems to be officially on the enemy side.
I think she, as Overlord, would know the difference. I'm not sure there is concrete canon to back it, but look at a few situations: Stanley knew instantly when Wanda turned to the GK Side. The entire confrontation between Don and Caesar over funding the Jetstone promotion of Tramennis hinged over whether or not Caesar was going to turn. Don knew at any given moment that Caesar had not yet turned, even if Caesar was being disrespectful or gathering the other casters and nobles to overturn Don's decision to support Jetstone.
If turning Sides can be somehow hidden, then it opens up a huge can of worms. Entire turned regiments, sacking 'their' Sides capitals, as an example. No, this makes no logical sense, and nothing in the story supports a turning which is not known to the Overlord/King/Queen of a Side.
Lamech wrote:She certainly wouldn't know what happened to Clay.
Agreed, but not due to any failure on the part of the new Overlord to correctly assess what happens to the units under her Side. Clay died or turned before Wanda became Overlord. My shmuckers is on died.
Last edited by Oberon on Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Oberon » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:55 pm

Whispri wrote:On the nobility front, it occurs to me that 'Lady' isn't a unique title, there's only one 'Countess of Firestone' for example. There's only one 'Lady Wanda Firebaugh' admittedly, but she doesn't have a City mixed into her title and nor has anyone else with a title such Lord, Lady, Sir or Dame. That may mean a lot to some.
I've brought up the 'Lady' issue before. Fact is, in Stupidworld 'Lady' and 'Lord' are titles of nobility. The usage in Erfworld may differ in meaning, but in a non-noble side with an Overlord rather than a King or a Queen, having units popped into that side with the title of Lady does muddy a lot of water.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby cheeseaholic » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:34 pm

It seems extremely likely that turning appears the same as croaking, since there was mass confusion about the whole decrypted army of Wanda's when they started their rampage and people thinking they were just turned units.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby drachefly » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:53 am

Kriestor, holy titans, you just keeep digging.

Which two lines should you use? The two plots are the SAME CURVE... and on the first plot, the two lines from the second plot are both indistinguishable. Just by going out to a larger scale, you've basically approximated 10^16 as... 50.

Go out another 40, and the steep line on the first plot will be up around 8*10^18, while the curve it's supposed to be 'within 5%' of is around 4*10^34, which is to say, around a quadrillion times larger.

Exponential and linear are VERY VERY DIFFERENT.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Kreistor » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:47 am

Housellama wrote:They aren't talking about Erfworld itself, they are talking about rules for Erfsim.


No, we're talking about high school level math. I am literally stunned that you guys didn't get this. But I suppose my high school included Grade 13, which was a University prep year. Lots of that got re-taught in First Year.

Funny, I seem to remember being accused of the same thing by Kreistor a while back. Using 'bad information' from sources I couldn't directly quote. I think at the time I had the decency to admit that I wasn't an expert. I also had the decency to apologize. Course, I could be misremembering. You know how bad memory can be.


Honestly, Housellama, to me, this doesn't take an expert, unless you think High School math takes an expert. We're not talking second year physics, here, but slightly advanced pre-university math. Maybe it's first year university. At best. You can see how close the two-line approximation is just by eyeballing the two graphs I provided. There's not much error there. I should use the word "were", because I'm not discussing the issue anymore. Bland's gone way off the deep end with personal insults, and Drach's just trolling.

But, yeah, on this I am an expert. I don't remember all the math, more's the tragedy, but that doesn't make me wrong. Like I said, I'm just stunned that I need to explain a single word of it. To me, this was high school math. I shouldn't have to defend it at all!

Whispri wrote:On the nobility front, it occurs to me that 'Lady' isn't a unique title, there's only one 'Countess of Firestone' for example. There's only one 'Lady Wanda Firebaugh' admittedly, but she doesn't have a City mixed into her title and nor has anyone else with a title such Lord, Lady, Sir or Dame. That may mean a lot to some.


In the case of British Nobility, each daughter of a noble is called "Lady" until married, and takes title from her father. She then takes title from her husband, potentially losing title and her children not being noble. (She remains noble if her husband is a commoner, but she loses "Lady" and no longer enters with the entourage.) That does not translate to Erfworld, since there is no Marriage. Boys don't get a title, except for the heir, which is referred to by the second highest title of his father. (Ie. Arthur Welsley was made Baron Wellington, then Count, then Duke. Each of those titles is retained... Arthur was Baron, Count, and Duke Wellington. Since the second highest title is Count Wellington, his oldest son would be called Count Wellington, even though technically Arthur still held that title. No other son got a title unless the first died, and his children is not noble. (I don't remember if the other sons are actually noble.)

Overlord Firebaugh, if a noble, would have daughters that bore the title Lady with no associated region. This does not mean Wanda is noble. We do not know if nobles can pop nobles: Parson only states that Royals can pop nobles, and British nobility does prevent noble status being inherited by the children of nobles.

Rob i clearly not able to use British rules, so he has his own.

Whispri wrote:By that argument someone could hire a freelancer then later walk into said freelancer's home and grab their stuff to refurnish their own.


I have no idea how you got there from my statements.

Anyway, I just reviewed Book 1, and Wanda's scrolls came from her private stash. But note that when Wanda was asked why she didn't mention them, she does not respond with "They're mine to use as I please", but with "You didn't [ask]". Remember that this game treats all Units of a Side somewhat as slaves. Possession and ownership are cloudy issues.

If she is indeed an allied Barbarian, she's paid by Gobwin Knob. That money is hers, to do with as she likes.


You don't give an allied Barbarian 500000 schmuckers to buy a spell and let her walk into the MK with it.

There is no chance that we're this deep into Book 2 and it hasn't been mentioned that Wanda is a Barbarian ally. I don't know how you can even entertain the idea. That would have been on the original character pages.

Wanda is a Dethroned Ruler, the last Overlord of fallen Goodminton. She is not random Commander #83960782581 as you seem to think. If those Casters were caught in the field when their Side was destroyed, they'd disband. Which is not the case with Wanda, who was promoted to heir at great expense and who Ruled a Capital Side for thirty seconds or so.


Barbarian is barbarian, regardless of how you got there. No one can tell the difference. Ansom couldn't tell Jillian was a Royal, much less a dethroned Overlord. Wanda is, in Book 0, a Barbarian, and it matters not one little bit how she got that way, except to her own ego. We know barbarian casters can join Sides, so at this point, no, Wanda is a member of GK until something specifically says otherwise.

The difference between a Ruler and a subject is petty to you?


Go back and re-read that. You grossly misinterpreted my statement. I was calling a rule that distinguished between Barbarian and Sided Warlords for the purposes of determining who could Turn as petty, which is dead opposite to your interpretation. I want them treated identically with no exception for Side status, which treats both the same: fair treatment for two differently described individuals cannot be characterized as petty.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:59 am

I was planning to post a history of excerpts from your posts in this thread to show just what kind of character you are, Kreistor. I don't need to. Your last is damning evidence even by itself about your double standards. You're not fooling anyone, not even yourself, which is why you needed to prolong this way beyond the pale.

But for once, this may actually be my last post on the topic. Because I've just reported us both to the mods.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Oberon » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:48 am

reignofevil wrote:I would think "Lord Hamster" would settle it, he was not popped royal or noble (or hell, even popped), and furthermore he is not even on a noble or royal side. He is quite literally as far removed from the concept as a unit can be, and boom, five minutes into Erfworld and he gets to pick the title and from then on it is his. For free. In Erfworld terms, Lord (and by extension lady) is pretty much meaningless as a title.
I think we are in perfect agreement, the use of Lord and Lady muddies the waters. Your example of Parson's self-selected title, which Stanley loved and which Ansom called meaningless, only supports the thesis.
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