Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby technojunkie » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:17 pm

Let's not forget that Jacks energies were directed by the predictions of a predictamancer (presumably Marie). His presence/casting may not have ALWAYS been required...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Kreistor » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:22 pm

Okay, some people overlooked the second, and vital, Rules update in this one. You all caught the "Casters can be Rulers", which strongly implies "Casters can be Chief Warlord", but doesn't give us that with certainty.

Rulers can abdicate! Just promote someone else to your position.

This has serious implications for Stanley. He is thoroughly bored as Overlord. He could be convinced to going back to Warlord, which he loved.

And thank you to Rob for giving us a number on the Fellows. Over 500 is enough to wait out their decay. That's not trivial.

So, I'm betting that it was Frenemy and Quisling's Air taking Goodminton. It had to be air power that took Goodminton, or Wanda would have run into them on the road. Goodminton isn't described as having any nearby, which leaves the two former allies. And to get through the defenses so quickly... they must have brought along a caster or two. To catch Clay and Delphie unable to get to Portal means they had to slam through the Air defenses extremely quickly. They didn't have overwhelming numbers to d that, so it had to be something else powerful enough to counter the defenses, and the only thing I know that can do that is a Caster.

Someone was thinking that Wanda is a Barbarian. No, Commanders can freely change Sides, if the Side lets them. Wanda is a BArbarian now, but she is about to join HAffaton... but I'm betting she'll make them pay for it with her blood. Unless they brought a Turnamancer (which her curse would cause her to fail to resist), she'll be headed to the Dungeon, and we'll get to see where her enjoyment of S&M comes from.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:34 pm

Patso Redneb wrote:I'm a newcomer to Erfworld and these forums (hello everybody btw) so I probably don't know many obvious things, but is there any evidence in the story, that attacked stacks retaliate to every attacking stack.


I'm hard pressed to think of an in-canon example, but we rejected the retaliate only once rule in Erfsim for an obvious reason.

It only takes one unit (which may be a cheap-boop junk) to disable ANY stack if you only allow one retaliation. This is one exploit not even Parson used, ever, and would seriously damage the resulting game. So several retaliations are typical. Usually there's a fatigue mechanic, as long as the defending stack does not wipe out the attacker.

Housellama wrote:That would make a lot more sense, actually. There's nothing that indicates that one stack can retaliate against multiple units.


Your tastes obviously differ. To my mind, retal only once makes very little sense, as described above.

There's also nothing that indicates that more than 8 units in a stack get to attack at the same time.


This has been previously suggested, and is used in some rulesets: only the top-8 units matter for damage-relevant calcs.

The rest of my scenario refers to a very specific stack bonus mechanic (additive bonus, grows linearly until 8 then stays constant). Throwing new rules to explain why 8-stacks are best is the whole point; there are many ways to make that so, but the obvious ones (multiplicative linear bonus, or additive linear, is not enough).
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Kreistor wrote:Rulers can abdicate! Just promote someone else to your position.


Indeed! Maybe (but we didn't realize at the time) this was exactly what Slately would have wanted to do (though presumably that promotion is more expensive, so just an Heir one would have worked since Slately expected to die).

And yeah, I wonder whether Stanley- I miss the fella btw- will do. OT1H, he's bored. OTOH, I think he likes being the one who's "in charge" (with the scare quotes intentional); he probably likes being the one called Ruler, even if he's not the one calling the shots. It will come down to what he likes more, overcompensating for his Piker origins in the safety of an office, or the thrill of the battlefield.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Keighvin1 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:14 pm

It seems to me that it is more likely that Wanda became Heir and her father died shortly after sending the message, rather than he promoted her straight to Overlord.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Patso Redneb » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:23 pm

Keighvin1 wrote:It seems to me that it is more likely that Wanda became Heir and her father died shortly after sending the message, rather than he promoted her straight to Overlord.

Just wanted to say that. On one hand, there is no mention that Firebaugh died when Wanda was already the Overlord, on the other, there's this enumeration
Fritz was gone. Clay was gone. Delphie was there in the tower, wounded.

and nothing about her Father. Still, I would bet on the first option.

ETA: Regarding stack sizes and retaliation.
BLANDCorporatio wrote:It only takes one unit (which may be a cheap-boop junk) to disable ANY stack if you only allow one retaliation. This is one exploit not even Parson used, ever, and would seriously damage the resulting game. So several retaliations are typical. Usually there's a fatigue mechanic, as long as the defending stack does not wipe out the attacker.

Yeah, i thought that out. But as strategic moves in Erfworld are processed in turns, it seems that all the real fighting is happening in real time. So it's not a choice between "retaliate to one of the stacks, that attacked you" and "retaliate to everyone" - it's just "fight as long as you can, but concetrating only on one stack at once".
Then again - I'm a newbie both to Erfworld and strategic games in general.
Last edited by Patso Redneb on Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:29 pm

Keighvin1 wrote:It seems to me that it is more likely that Wanda became Heir and her father died shortly after sending the message, rather than he promoted her straight to Overlord.

Agreed.

"She began to make plans for striking camp, but she had a sudden bizarre feeling in her head, as if she were being lifted upwards." <- This indicates the moment she was promoted.

Time passes, she checks the contents of the hat...

"All at once, completely new senses opened up in her head and she was flooded with information." <- This indicates the moment her father died and she became overlord.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Mizzle » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:35 pm

Patso Redneb wrote:
Keighvin1 wrote:It seems to me that it is more likely that Wanda became Heir and her father died shortly after sending the message, rather than he promoted her straight to Overlord.

Just wanted to say that. On one hand, there is no mention that Firebaugh died when Wanda was already the Overlord, on the other, there's this enumeration
Fritz was gone. Clay was gone. Delphie was there in the tower, wounded.

and nothing about her Father. Still, I would bet on the first option.
I have to agree with that. If her father had died when she was the overlord, it would have been mentioned. Assuming that rulers can't abdicate, she knew he was dead because she became overlord, and that's why there was no further mention of it. Plus there was a delay between the promotion and becoming overlord.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Biostar » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:41 pm

I expected it to happen. But not so suddenly, and leaving Wanda in such a precarious position. Clay definitely didn't curse her as ordered, their defeat came much too swift.

Only question now is how she will fulfill her promise of vengeance once captured.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Sieggy » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:52 pm

I think the last light to go out was her father, because it was at that point all the unstacked units depopped.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby 0beron » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:10 pm

Sieggy wrote:I think the last light to go out was her father, because it was at that point all the unstacked units depopped.

No that logic doesn't quite work.
A city belongs to a given side until the Garrison falls.
Units afield survive as long as their side is in possession of one city.
Once that final unit croaked, the Garrison was taken, and Goodminton no longer had a City. All it's field units "pop-out" and Wanda is left with her stack.

So while it's possible that final light was in fact Firebaugh, the fact that unstacked units depopped then isn't sufficient evidence.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby 0beron » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:16 pm

On the topic of Wanda's status, I suggest it's possible that Wanda is STILL a barbarian Overlord/Heir. Does anyone have citations to prove Wanda is properly a GK unit? If not, then that could be another reason her decrypted have her livery.
The only citation I can think of offhand is Stanley's text update recounting of the Fall of FAQ, in which I believe he says Wanda "turned". This brings up questions about whether we have a clear definition of "turning", or if Stanley could even be mistaken.
Of course this also raises questions about how she orders GK units. I could be wrong, but its an interesting idea that I'd like feedback/evidence on.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:19 pm

*sniff* This is wonderful. We have several posters with only 1 post to their name (as of yet)- who are ACTUAL posters not spambots!

Praise the Lord!

Patso Redneb wrote:But as strategic moves in Erfworld are processed in turns, it seems that all the real fighting is happening in real time. So it's not a choice between "retaliate to one of the stacks, that attacked you" and "retaliate to everyone" - it's just "fight as long as you can, but concetrating only on one stack at once".


Which is to say, as long as the stack lives, it retaliates against everything sent against it. When you play by post via forum, stacks are sent into battle one after the other, so then retaliation happens every time, as long as the defender lives. Keeping things simple in rulesets is a virtue, remember. You may play with "simultaneous combat" rules and try to make decisions as to who can retaliate how much against what, but that's just needlessly complicating things when you try to do the battle calcs.

And even then, "retaliate just once" doesn't make sense, for the same reason I described before. Even if "combat" happens in real time, but a stack may Defend only in one "combat", send a junk unit to eliminate the retaliation (this triggers the combat physics once) then you're free to engage that same defender with impunity in other "combats" on the same turn.

But this doesn't work, or Transylvito would split the world with Charlie. So trickle-sending units is not the way to go, overwhelming force is (as is to be expected).

PS: wasn't the Hat sensation simply related to the message being received? And isn't the last dead unit, even though not named, heavily implied to be Mr. F? I thought so anyway.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby BCCroaker » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:31 pm

Wasn't Wanda described as Gobwin Knob's Chief Croakamancer from the vey beiginning? At least strongly implying that she belonged to that side.
On turning I think Olive may be about to give Wanda some instruction on that, possibly in a dungeon.

0beron wrote:On the topic of Wanda's status, I suggest it's possible that Wanda is STILL a barbarian Overlord/Heir. Does anyone have citations to prove Wanda is properly a GK unit? If not, then that could be another reason her decrypted have her livery.
The only citation I can think of offhand is Stanley's text update recounting of the Fall of FAQ, in which I believe he says Wanda "turned". This brings up questions about whether we have a clear definition of "turning", or if Stanley could even be mistaken.
Of course this also raises questions about how she orders GK units. I could be wrong, but its an interesting idea that I'd like feedback/evidence on.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby 0beron » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:39 pm

BCCroaker wrote:Wasn't Wanda described as Gobwin Knob's Chief Croakamancer from the vey beiginning?

Well yes, but we have seen that the title of Chief Caster isn't an actual position, its just a convention put in place by the Ruler to denote rank. the Chief Croakamancer bit did occur to me though, and I agree that Stanley wouldn't put her in that role unless he believed she was his unit. I'm not sure that you can fool a Ruler in that sense.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Kaed » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:45 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:*sniff* This is wonderful. We have several posters with only 1 post to their name (as of yet)- who are ACTUAL posters not spambots!

Praise the Lord!


Long live the humans!

I do like this revelation that Casters can become Overlords. I see some people thinking her father abdicated... err... no.

Just judging from other evidence - such as that the message was hastily written (spent treas. to prom. you -- live and avenge! love - F) on his INK BLOTTER (for those of you unfamiliar with the concept, back in ye olde days when people wrote with quills, sometimes you tapped off some of the excess ink onto scrap paper so it didn't splatter all over your letter), and that it came with a small gem heavily suggests he scribbled it out on the first scrap of paper he could find and then a gem he had on his desk probably to look pretty (maybe as a paperweight), then threw it in the hat, possibly even as soldiers were barging into his room. Remember, Wanda had an odd feeling she was being 'uplifted' moments before. This was probably her being promoted while he was writing the note, since we know it probably takes only an effort of will to activate such natural Moneymancy.

And just look at her father's Signamancy. He was elderly and not very dangerous looking. I think he was not much for combat, and was probably heavily depressed and unarmed, drinking cocoa. It probably only took a couple seconds to croak him, poor guy :<
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby 0beron » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:48 pm

Ditto to all the above :) (what Kaed said lol)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:01 pm

Whispri wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Not likely. First off, Jack needs to actually be present in the field to work that kind of magic veiling, and he was important to Faq's defense; as such it is unlikely that banhammer would ever send him out into the field with the mercenaries. Second, we know Jack was in the magic kingdom twelve turns ago; this would mean he was in faq just 12 turns ago and thus would have needed to get from Faq to goodmitten in just those 12 turns to join the battle. Third, Given the size of haffaton and the lacking resources of goodmitten, it seems unlikely that haffaton would even feel the need to hire mercenaries; haffaton throughout this whole story seems like they were very much in control of the situation.

One word: 'Scrolls'. 'Sides Faq being a hidden Side at this moment in time is not a given. Twelve turns is time enough to cover a considerable distance by air, even without, for example, move boosting magics. And it would hardly be the first time Haffaton's used another Side to do Knife work on their behalf, if they were even involved, which is also not a given. The alternative is that enemies Goodminton knew about somehow slipped a large army within range of their Capital without their boosted scouts noticing a thing.


If they have scrolls then there is no reason to think Faq was involved since scrolls can be purchased in the magic kingdom. Also another thing to mention is that Faq didn't send mercenaries to nearby sides, but sent them to far off sides; sides so far that most don't even know their existence. Futhermore is the fact that Jack would have to be away from Faq for many terms and there is no telling what scouts might pass by in that time. Also i feel safe in assume Faq's isolation status... i mean if Faq wasn't isolated then how did they become isolated? Kinda hard for them to make all other nearby sides to forget about their existence.

The alternative seems plausible considering how we already saw a pair of sides get into Goodmitten's airspace in a very sudden manner. hell the update even mentioned that frenemy and Quisling were now allies with haffaton. If they could invade and potentially conquer goodmitten by air once, they could do it again with haffaton's forces to aid them. Without the uncroaked, goodmitten doesn't have a whole lot and it would not take much to finish them; it may not even take a very large army to finish them

Sieggy wrote:I think the last light to go out was her father, because it was at that point all the unstacked units depopped.

No, i think that was because the Capitol fell... that was also the moment when Wanda realized she was a barbarian


Kreistor wrote:Rulers can abdicate! Just promote someone else to your position.

No such thing was said... As others have said it is most likely the case that Wanda was promoted to Heir and then became overlord when he father croaked.
The leading reason to believe this is the fact that when she became overlord she did not mention her father. If her father had abdicated his throne that would mean he would be a GK unit and as such Wanda would be able to sense his presence. She could not sense Clay or Fritz, and was able to sense Delphie wounded in the tower; the fact that she did not mention her father would mean that he was gone; she did not even bother to mention him alongside clay and Fritz because she herself probably realized what her new senses meant... her father croaked and as heir she was now overlord.


[quote=oberon]On the topic of Wanda's status, I suggest it's possible that Wanda is STILL a barbarian Overlord/Heir. Does anyone have citations to prove Wanda is properly a GK unit? If not, then that could be another reason her decrypted have her livery.
The only citation I can think of offhand is Stanley's text update recounting of the Fall of FAQ, in which I believe he says Wanda "turned". This brings up questions about whether we have a clear definition of "turning", or if Stanley could even be mistaken.
Of course this also raises questions about how she orders GK units. I could be wrong, but its an interesting idea that I'd like feedback/evidence on.[/quote]
Don't forget, as an ruler, Stanely has an innate sense of who is units are.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby 0beron » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:29 pm

Someone mentioned the possibility of FAQ's involvement....now while I agree with the fact that Foolamancy wouldn't be required for Goodminton to have fallen so fast....I DO think FAQ was involved in another way. Marie said she had lots of work to do now that she had seen Wanda. I think she and FAQ may have been manipulating things behind the scenes, perhaps without Haffaton et al even knowing about them. In fact, I'd even suggest those hooves Wanda hears may be FAQ.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 026

Postby Arky » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:36 pm

Whispri wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Whispri wrote:Speaking of Faq, this 'sudden death from nowhere' thing would have been a lot easier to pull off with the help of a powerful Predictamancer and a powerful Foolamancer. Never mind the powerful fliers.


Are you pointing names and naming fingers? D'you think Jack had a hand in that?

Yep, I believe I do. It helped Fate along, Marie's schtick. It struck with complete surprise, Jack's schtick. And it granted a chance to boost their Treasury with the capture of a powerful City. And then there's the Book's title to consider.

MonteCristo wrote:Not likely. First off, Jack needs to actually be present in the field to work that kind of magic veiling, and he was important to Faq's defense; as such it is unlikely that banhammer would ever send him out into the field with the mercenaries. Second, we know Jack was in the magic kingdom twelve turns ago; this would mean he was in faq just 12 turns ago and thus would have needed to get from Faq to goodmitten in just those 12 turns to join the battle. Third, Given the size of haffaton and the lacking resources of goodmitten, it seems unlikely that haffaton would even feel the need to hire mercenaries; haffaton throughout this whole story seems like they were very much in control of the situation.

One word: 'Scrolls'. 'Sides Faq being a hidden Side at this moment in time is not a given. Twelve turns is time enough to cover a considerable distance by air, even without, for example, move boosting magics. And it would hardly be the first time Haffaton's used another Side to do Knife work on their behalf, if they were even involved, which is also not a given. The alternative is that enemies Goodminton knew about somehow slipped a large army within range of their Capital without their boosted scouts noticing a thing.


I agree with this. If Marie Predicted that Jack could be spared from Foolamancer duties to go hire out for mercenary work for a few turns- even better, if Marie Predicted that it was necessary for Faq's destiny that Jack do this- Jack could go. Distance is not a big issue when he can go to Haffaton by portal in answer to a hypothetical request by Olive to the Magic Kingdom for a Foolamancer for mercenary work (I assume there's a job board or a more sophisticated version of same).


Edit: Also, this is going to be pretty delicious if that's Jillian that Wanda is about to encounter. I said a while back that I didn't see Wanda going to Haffaton and THEN to Faq, it would draw out this story way too far since Haffaton is meant to be strong and there's no easy answer on how it would lose Wanda at all, especially to little Faq. Well, this is the perfect situation for Faq to be able to capture Wanda....

Either way, great update. Explains a lot about Wanda, both for what she has done already and what she may be able to do in the future.


Edit 2: That we now know Wanda has spent time (however brief) as the barbarian heir to a destroyed side gives new depths to the Wanda-Jillian relationship too.
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