Summer Updates - 040

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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby atteSmythe » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:09 am

Yosarian wrote:If they can manage to stalemate Wanda somewhere...keep her tied up for a while...tie her down

I like the way you think.
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby Danetrix » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:12 am

Tubal-Cain wrote:The rest of the world is getting desperate, but it seems that they are still relying on trying to win with superior military maneuvering rather than consulting other sources.

Maybe it's a problem the Royals have. Parson won by the creative application of magic. Stanley won by (partially) accepting Wanda (a caster)'s advice to try the summoning spell. Charlie has done very well for himself by efficiently utilizing the magic units at his disposal.
On the other side of the coin, Ansom didn't seem to associate casters much, and neither does Vinny. Now we find that Ansom's brother has been popping nothing but infantry for the past 23 turns.


Yes, but we have no idea how long it takes to pop a caster, or even if you get to choose which one comes out. We have a scale of the high end (60 turns for Faq heir) and the low end.
...twelve stacks of eight Pikers and eleven stacks of six Stabbers had now popped since Ansom fell. Given present circumstances, that was surely worth more than seven Gumps

So, a stack of eight Pikers a day, or six Stabbers a day. Or 1 Gump per three days. Though these rates may not compare, (New Faq and Dhrystone) as they're two different towns at two different levels, but it's enough to show where things are on the priority list. How many days did that blue dragon for GK take to pop? (Assumig it was ordered the day he lost in to Jillian's scouting mission) GK would be similar in level to Dhrystone, so it would be a fair comparasin to Dhrystone's Gumps and infantry rates.

A rough guesstimate using these numbers might even put the castors taking 20+ turns to pop. And Jetstone lost a heck of a lot of troops. As they're short, troop numbers are better to be making here, for now.
Does one get to choose which caster you're getting? I believe one would, as Sizermore was popped in GK, a Dirtamancer in a mountain, but yeah, no proof of that.
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby Decorus » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:30 am

Wanda and Jack are both from Faq originally. Its entirely possible that a single side is limited in its casters and the only reason Stanley has more is because he added them from conquered cities.
Just like Stanley left Faq ruined as a back up point in case he was losing.
Stanley's side has Four big problems.

1. Wanda isn't particularly loyal to Stanley and could be a barbarian working for Stanley.
2. Parson is a garrison unit and as such is ill suited to offensive campaigns as well as having no interest in leading troops to thier deaths.
3. Stanley's hatred of Charles gives anyone opposing him an advantage.
4. No allies.
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby Lord Kasavin » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:35 am

Decorus wrote:Wanda and Jack are both from Faq originally. Its entirely possible that a single side is limited in its casters and the only reason Stanley has more is because he added them from conquered cities.
Just like Stanley left Faq ruined as a back up point in case he was losing.
Stanley's side has Four big problems.

1. Wanda isn't particularly loyal to Stanley and could be a barbarian working for Stanley.
2. Parson is a garrison unit and as such is ill suited to offensive campaigns as well as having no interest in leading troops to thier deaths.
3. Stanley's hatred of Charles gives anyone opposing him an advantage.
4. No allies.


Well, I don't want to renumber your list, so I'll just say...

0. Stanley
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby moose o death » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:49 am

stanley is only a problem when he gives the orders. when GK goes to war again stanley is going to give out parson's order's

on three seperate occasions parson has proven the better tactician. although one of those ended badly because of jillian. both parson and stanley wanted to waste her on the spot which could have reshaped the whole current situation had they gone ahead.

stanley listens to parson even if it is just to take the credit for the good idea's. heck he's even starting to see that parson probably can't be disbanded.
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby Decorus » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:52 am

Casters count as Commanders, but don't usually lead units directly.
They also don't have a leadership bonus except in specific cases.
Wanda gives a leadership bonus to uncroaked and decrypted troops. 1 to every decrypted on her side 4 to every unit in her hex 8 to every unit in her stack.
Sizemore gives a leadership bonus to Golems

Ansom gives 3 to every unit on his side 5 to those in his hex and 10 to those in his stack.

I think there is a level difference between them, but it looks like a Warlord vrs a Caster with the right troops is a fairly even battle.
Its also hinted at that Wanda gives an additional bonus because she is attuned to the pilers and Ansom gives an additional bonus because he is decrypted or its possible his leadership bonus only works on decrypted now.

It certainly looks like Stanley is happier with Parson now that Parson taught him how to get Dwagons easily.
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby Lightbender » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:21 am

The one thing that can really even this war I think is a link between master class Thinkamancer, Lookamancer and Shockamancer. If the RCC can scare up those three units, they can pretty much rain tactical strikes down on any overmap target and perhaps even targets behind defensive structures. We're talking about the capacity for gamebreaking surgical strikes to wreckthe cohesion of any force that gets too close. Possibly the ultimate defensive siege linkup.


Thinkamancer and any other two is pretty much a major game force, regardless of what those two are. I don't think I can come up with a bad combo.
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby Kaminobob » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:33 am

Lightbender wrote:
Thinkamancer and any other two is pretty much a major game force, regardless of what those two are. I don't think I can come up with a bad combo.


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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby factotum » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:45 am

tenth wrote:Penistone?


I'm sure Rob was referring to the small market town (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penistone) rather than whatever you were thinking of. Honest. ;)
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby moose o death » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:49 am

someone brought up the topic of getting the wrong caster.

my theory is you get no real control over which casters pop. the city constructs the casters IT needs. ie gobwin knob was sitting on tonnes of gemstones. unless they have geological survey units it probably came down to when the caster was placed into construction the city needed a dirtamncer for treasury purposes. the remoteness of the city dictated it would need a thinkamncer to conduct communications. the lookamancer evades me for now. but i'll assume they can be used survey a large radius of hexes around their position.

faq popped a warrior heir (i know this is an heir not a caster, i think the city itself controls much of erfworld around it).the foolamancer kept it hidden and the predictamncer made usre the others were protected as well. the predictamncer made sure the heir was popped as you could never hide three cities forever. one day two cities would need veiling. the croakmancer was for defence in an otherwise pacifist colony. they would only need to kill enough to raise an army to fight their attackers off. lack of any real conflict probably left the tenants over confident that they could use this tactic
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby Lord Kasavin » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:09 am

moose o death wrote:someone brought up the topic of getting the wrong caster.

my theory is you get no real control over which casters pop. the city constructs the casters IT needs. ie gobwin knob was sitting on tonnes of gemstones. unless they have geological survey units it probably came down to when the caster was placed into construction the city needed a dirtamncer for treasury purposes. the remoteness of the city dictated it would need a thinkamncer to conduct communications. the lookamancer evades me for now. but i'll assume they can be used survey a large radius of hexes around their position.

faq popped a warrior heir (i know this is an heir not a caster, i think the city itself controls much of erfworld around it).the foolamancer kept it hidden and the predictamncer made usre the others were protected as well. the predictamncer made sure the heir was popped as you could never hide three cities forever. one day two cities would need veiling. the croakmancer was for defence in an otherwise pacifist colony. they would only need to kill enough to raise an army to fight their attackers off. lack of any real conflict probably left the tenants over confident that they could use this tactic


An alternative (yet similar) theory:

Obviously, different cities pop different units. GK pop twolls, but probably not bats or orlys. Faq pops gwiffons. You get the idea. I think some cities have as an option in their production queues for specific casters. So, GK proper had the option of building a dirtamancer, which they did. Transylvitto probably had the option of building a dollamancer, so they did. Yet, neither is ever going to be able to pop a dittomancer (as an example), since it isn't on the queue. FAQ for whatever reason had lots of casters to choose from and with no great need for soldiers spend their production on casters.

However, since casters have high upkeep and take a long time to pop, duplicate casters are rarely worth the investment (though would moneymancers?)

Anyways, I like this theory more than yours because there's no reason for FAQ to have a croackamancer. Yes, you give a reason, I find it unconvincing though. It might also better explain the "mathamancy" dependent kingdom line parsed earlier by Sizemore. I got a feeling Erfworld is a lot bigger than the RCC.

On another note, anyone want to hazard a guess as to what a Regency is? Yes, obviously its there for the pun. However, its apparently not ruled by royalty. Historically, a Regent was an individual who ruled when the actual monarch was still to young to effectively rule and were suppose to step aside when the monarch reached maturity. How that translates in a world where heirs are popped fully formed... I'm still debating.
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby Calemyr » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:14 am

Maybe I'm off my rocker here, but I think the Haggar side is far more horrible than you realize. I believe it was more a reference to Haggar Slacks than a scruffy barbarian with bad eating habits. Look at the names: Pantstown, Toughskin, Oshkosh, and Sansabelt. Toughskin and Oshkosh are, I believe, brands of pants, while Pantstown is obvious (naturally got caught with their pants down) and Sansabelt is a rather blunt pants pun too: sans a belt = without a belt. I don't think they plan much in Haggar, really. I think King Dickie flies by the seat of his pants.

Penistone is a not a dirty word, it's a real town and an example of legitimate names that are automatically censored. It's almost certainly a Sofa King city, as everything with a rather dirty connotation seems to come from there.

But yes, it looks like things are starting up for another round of war. There is no peace in Erfworld, only brief truces to reload. Parson cannot break it soon enough for my tastes.
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby Sixty » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:34 am

An update with quite a bit of information. Book 2 is gonna start with all kinds of action and battles.

I was most curious about how fast it seems Wanda and company took the rest of Stanley's cities and did a lot of damage to Unaroyal. In what... 19 turns they took 11 cities plus however much they did to Unaroyal? The cities probably weren't in a straight line either. It makes me wonder if they actually bothered to recapture all of the lost cities or whether they got most of the ones on the way to Unaroyal and decided they could get the others when it was convenient.
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby moose o death » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:49 am

Lord Kasavin wrote:Anyways, I like this theory more than yours


your impressive mastery of english, took a turn for the "what the?!" about here. i mean, that is totally tactless. i burst out laughing when i read that.
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby HandofShadows » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:14 am

imgran wrote:You're essentially talking about the Battle of Stalingrad. If it gets to that point, Parson will recognize what's going on in about 2 seconds and will try to convince Wanda to change tactics. It remains to be seen whether he can succeed.


Parson is a person that Wanda will listen to and follow suggestions from he with little problem. To her Parson is a tool of fate and she knows first hand how good a warlord he is.
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby HandofShadows » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:15 am

atteSmythe wrote:
Yosarian wrote:If they can manage to stalemate Wanda somewhere...keep her tied up for a while...tie her down

I like the way you think.


Hey, I though Wanda was the one that did the tieing up in this comic? :D
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby Yosarian » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:51 am

HandofShadows wrote:
atteSmythe wrote:
Yosarian wrote:If they can manage to stalemate Wanda somewhere...keep her tied up for a while...tie her down

I like the way you think.


Hey, I though Wanda was the one that did the tieing up in this comic? :D


Well, until Jillian captures Wanda and interrogates her for information. ;)
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby JustDoug » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:34 am

Just some thoughts about the recent discussion concerning Casters...

Going by what's been outlined in the story, I'm of the opinion that casters pop in a state of non-specific low-level "magic user" and it generally isn't until they're tasked that their specific discipline is determined. It's been stated that casters can cast outside their discipline- Sizemore and Wanda's early discussion and the later demonstration as example- but are disinclined to do so and don't get the same "warm and fuzzy feeling" as when they're operating within their speciality.

I think that use and not inclination are the main factors determining the caster's discipline, at least for the most part. You'll note that almost all sides shown so far have a Thinkamancer in their employ, that discipline being of greatest immediate utility and value, especially within Erf's- um... somewhat unique sociopolitical situation, what with intelligence and communication being among the paramount requirements of military and political operations.

It's likely that any side's first newly popped caster is told, "Start in with the thinkamancy; we need it NOW! (or whatever discipline the side's CIC determines is needed right away)" and so that's what they become. While some consideration towards the caster's inclination and talent is given, especially when the side has more than one caster or the caster's talents for a certain discipline make it a "Will of the Titans" situation, they're most likely assigned their roles rather than popped into them. Rulers probably pop a caster to fill a role, not pop one and hope for a best fit.

Admittedly, their are probably exceptions. Faq's Philosopher King probably started with either the unnamed Predictomancer or Jack as first choice, followed by the other, with Wanda being 'allowed' to follow the path of Croackamancy (possibly at the Predictomancer's behest?). Transyvito's Dollamancers and GK's Sizemore the Dirtomancer reflect their differing outlooks, situation, needs and- for lack of a better word- style of the sides rather than random poppage. There are probably also examples of freelance barbarian or "feral" casters lurking about and living on the Magic Isle.

Of course, this is barring any Word of God and indications otherwise by Ye Merrye Authors, but it's how I read it so far.
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby raphfrk » Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:16 am

JustDoug wrote:Going by what's been outlined in the story, I'm of the opinion that casters pop in a state of non-specific low-level "magic user" and it generally isn't until they're tasked that their specific discipline is determined. It's been stated that casters can cast outside their discipline- Sizemore and Wanda's early discussion and the later demonstration as example- but are disinclined to do so and don't get the same "warm and fuzzy feeling" as when they're operating within their speciality.


The other option is that each caster has a talent level for each type of magic. If a caster shows a high ability in one area, then it would be a waste to have them train in another type of magic.

From Maggie's description, they try casting spells for each type of discipline and then get the "warm-fuzzy" feeling when they cast a spell from their speciality.

They might still be able to train outside their speciality and act as that other type of caster, but they would have lower stats.

I think the concept that location and surroundings of the city affect caster stat "rolls" also seems reasonable. If each city can be completely self sufficient, then it reduces the need for war.
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Re: Summer Updates - 040

Postby Raza » Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:40 am

My guess at the caster thing is that they pop randomly or semi randomly, or we'd see far more structured use of them - as game mechanics go, the way they're sprinkled across Erf's sides reminds me strongly of that kind of highly prized aquisition that you can only get through sheer luck in rare random events or by unlocking obscure side-plot achievements. The kind you can never rely on when starting over, that keeps even top-level games interesting as you try to collect them all, or even just your three favorites.

Maybe they pop completely randomly above and beyond a city's normal production. Maybe every popped unit has a random chance to also be a caster (this would be cool - it'd imply that popping a lot of basic infantry would get you the best shot at casters, but would open up the way for wicked rare caster-special unit combos like Twoll Shockamancers or warlord casters that grant two types of bonuses to self-created units they lead). Maybe the ability to pop a caster randomly appears on a city's production order list, and is spent when the caster is popped. Which casters pop and how often is almost certainly related to the city in question.

I'm also not sure about 'generic casting'; the game is unclear on precedents. So far we've only ever seen Sizemore and Wanda cast outside their discipline from bought spell-containing items (scrolls?). Wanda's supposed to be good at it, but still always uses scrolls. Sizemore's supposed to be crap, but cast shockamancy from a scroll just fine. Maybe it was low level shockamancy, and he couldn't have handled then epic 350K shmucker spell that summoned Parson. But we don't know whether there even is another, more natural way to cast outside of discipline.


Retconjurer wrote:What if they don't take Ansom's decryption the way we're all expecting? That is, as a blasphemous croakamantic abomination.

What if they see it the way that Ansom sees it? As a Titan-Granted new life. Indeed, a new kind of life. A better kind of life. An eternal life. I mean, coming from a Christian culture, the idea of being totally freed from death is pretty dang freaking cool. The decrypted do not hunger or thirst, they are not wearied in their service of the titans. They are restored from the croaked by the intervention of the Titanic.

That'd be pretty anti-climatic if everyone did it. But I mean, what if someone sees the decryption from that angle who isn't on the side of Gobwin Knob? What do you do when the Titanic mandate has switched?

You're assuming that the people talking about Titanic mandates have an ongoing truth-seeking interest in discovering what the titans may want. Mostly with religion, royalty and authority in general people will believe whatever vindicates them having what they want, and divine authorities are preferred because they never come down from the sky to contradict you. Obscurity is religion's selling feature: nobody currently in a position of strength is going to voluntarily choose the interpretation that puts them at a disadvantage.
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