Summer Updates - 041

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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby build6 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:37 am

DorianMode wrote:There was definitely a leak, though; enough to put pressure on Charlie, but maybe not enough for him to panic. He's been deliberately obfuscatory long enough that even if he appears to panic, you can't be certain it's not an act.


well, Charlie has certainly been making mistakes w.r.t. Parson (per the "teaching me my bracer can make sophisticated predictions about the future: priceless")
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby onigame » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:27 pm

But Jillian assumed everything this man did was an act. She never trusted him back when he was her main competition for mercenary work. And now that he'd apparently found her "secret" kingdom...


Jillian's internal dialogue sure seems like she has no memory of the ancient history between herself, Charlie, and Wanda... maybe this paragraph could use a teensy bit of retconjuration. :)
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Lilwik » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:00 am

onigame wrote:Jillian's internal dialogue sure seems like she has no memory of the ancient history between herself, Charlie, and Wanda... maybe this paragraph could use a teensy bit of retconjuration.
I don't see what you mean. It looks perfectly consistent with Jillian and Charlie's history as far as I can tell. What kind of retconjuration would you suggest?
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby onigame » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:48 am

Lilwik wrote:
onigame wrote:Jillian's internal dialogue sure seems like she has no memory of the ancient history between herself, Charlie, and Wanda... maybe this paragraph could use a teensy bit of retconjuration.
I don't see what you mean. It looks perfectly consistent with Jillian and Charlie's history as far as I can tell. What kind of retconjuration would you suggest?


Well, it's clear from IP(TSF) 69 and 70 that Charlie knows that Faq exists, that Jillian is from it, that its ruler is (was) King Banhammer, that it is (was) located near El-Efbaum, and that Jillian knows that Charlie knows this. There's also an implication that Charlie has had an interest in "Warlady Jillian" since even before the whole IP(TSF) story happened.

But if you read Summer Update 41, the implication is that Jillian is surprised that Charlie is aware of the existence of Faq:

How do you know about Faq at all, Charlie?


And now that he'd apparently found her "secret" kingdom...


Another point is that when Charlie talks about his "secrets" being compromised, Jillian assumes that they're "trade secrets" and scoffs at him. But Jillian should know from personal experience that Charlie has some *personal* secrets that he values very highly.

A third point, though minor, is that there's also some implication that Jillian has no direct knowledge of Charlie -- her internal exposition uses "this" to refer to Charlie, as in "this man" and "this guy", which implies impersonal detachment. Given that Jillian has some history with Charlie, "the" would be more appropriate -- "the man", "the guy". And while it's true that Jillian doesn't trust Charlie, the time period mark of "when he was her main competition for mercenary work" sure seems like a strange checkpoint over "when she almost croaked his daughter for trying to negotiate with him".

Retconjuration may not be strictly necessary -- certainly it's possible that the "deal" with Charlie involves not just Faq never talking about Charlie, but also forgetting all they knew about Charlie. But Jack and Wanda's behavior is more consistent with them knowing Charlie's history with Faq yet not being allowed to talk about it, as opposed to actually losing memory. For the Jillian of Summer Updates to be consistent with the Jillian of IPTSF, I think something pretty radical needs to happen. Maybe Jillian ends up getting her memory erased. Maybe Jillian of IPTSF and Jillian of TBFGK aren't the same Jillian (although that makes a lot more plot holes). If I were Rob I would consider Retconjuration as an easier out, really -- just change this update to leave Jillian's memory of Charlie more vague and have her be less surprised at what Charlie knows.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Lilwik » Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:44 pm

onigame wrote:Well, it's clear from IP(TSF) 69 and 70 that Charlie knows that Faq exists, that Jillian is from it, that its ruler is (was) King Banhammer, that it is (was) located near El-Efbaum, and that Jillian knows that Charlie knows this.
He knew that Faq existed back when it existed the first two times, but that was some unknown number of turns in the distant past. Jillian has been a full-time mercenary for all of recent history, but now suddenly, a few turns after Faq is re-established as a secret weapon against Gobwin Knob Jillian is getting a call from Charlie calling her "Royal Highness." Jillian is clearly wondering how Charlie knows about the new Faq.

onigame wrote:Another point is that when Charlie talks about his "secrets" being compromised, Jillian assumes that they're "trade secrets" and scoffs at him. But Jillian should know from personal experience that Charlie has some *personal* secrets that he values very highly.
Charlie may value them highly, but they don't seem highly valuable to anyone else. Jillian has no reason to care about Charlie's history in el-Efbaum, no reason to think that sort of secret was exposed, and every reason to think that Charlie is talking about trade secrets because those are the sorts of secrets that might matter.

onigame wrote:And while it's true that Jillian doesn't trust Charlie, the time period mark of "when he was her main competition for mercenary work" sure seems like a strange checkpoint over "when she almost croaked his daughter for trying to negotiate with him".
"When he was her main competition for mercenary work" is another way of saying Jillian's entire life up to her refounding Faq. She's saying that she has never trusted Charlie.

onigame wrote:Retconjuration may not be strictly necessary -- certainly it's possible that the "deal" with Charlie involves not just Faq never talking about Charlie, but also forgetting all they knew about Charlie.
Since nothing has been said that explicitly contradicts canon, retconjuration wouldn't be strictly necessary even if Jillian remembered everything.

onigame wrote:But Jack and Wanda's behavior is more consistent with them knowing Charlie's history with Faq yet not being allowed to talk about it, as opposed to actually losing memory.
There is no doubt at all that Jack and Wanda remember. Jack even told Parson all about it in Epilogue 7.
Last edited by Lilwik on Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Arky » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:32 pm

It's been clear for some time that Charlie's deal with Jillian probably includes memory alteration or erasure. The reference to the secret kingdom can be explained away by saying it just means the new FAQ and it probably does, but Jillian's attitude to Charlie in books 1 and 2 is all wrong UNLESS...

1. Memory alteration; or

2. She's so happy for Wanda being healed (or something else Charlie does) that she gets over the way Charlie has coerced her into signing this deal.
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