Summer Updates - 041

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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Decorus » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:04 pm

The Decrypted Archons are a serious problem for Charles its not Ansom popped under enemy control bad its about 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times worse.
Charles conducts himself as an information broker and he as he stated prides himself on confidentiality.
Both are jeopardized by the decrypting of the Archons.

1. The Archons may know EVERYTHING about Charles.
2. The Archons may know EVERYTHING about how CharlesCom operates.
3. The Archons may be able to USE all of the same TRADE SECRETS that Charles does.
4. The Archons are in PARSON'S hands....

Has anyone considered Charles is another Ultimate Warlord summoned by magic?
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Whispri » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:12 pm

SteveMB wrote:
Whispri wrote:Harsh? Not a bit of it, she had a safe hex behind her she could have fallen back to. And then she could have scouted other hexes while displaying actual caution. And yes I read her excuses, even if he did pay her fees just so she could die running away, if her attitude towards scouting missions wasn't 'chaaaaaaaaarge!' she wouldn't have been in that mess. And she was hired to provide intelligence.

It would seem that Lord Shelby played her when he suggested that she could sack the city herself, and she fell for it. Obviously, it's easier to be angry about Shelby for the former than at herself for the latter.

EDIT: Most sides probably don't do that sort of thing very often, for the same reason Charlie doesn't outright break his contracts -- it damages your ability to do business in the future (i.e. if word gets around that you gave your last batch of mercenaries the mushroom treatment so that you could use them as cannon fodder, it will be harder to hire more mercenaries next time you need them).

But why should we accept her suspicions as fact? He could simply have been wrong. He could have been right and she just had the misfortune to run into an advancing column from elsewhere. I mean, just because Dagwood forces got there first doesn't mean it wasn't an open City at the time he offered her the mission.

And really, how would he gain by dropping her in a pile of doom unsupported?

Raza wrote:
Whispri wrote:
Ninja wrote:What risk? She could go around the whole kingdom in one turn. She would be back before the others could even MOVE.

The risk of ambush, she could fly straight into a hostile stack. And if she dies her Kingdom dies with her. She's recklessly gambling with other people's lives.

Everything a ruler does is playing with others' lives, and not a single ruler in Erfworld seems to have a nobler cause in mind than their own wants and desires. It's just the way Erf works. She can't be held accountable by earth-ethics for the erfworld mechanic where everybody on her side relies directly on her continued life.

She's no worse than any other ruler there.

Most Erf Rulers we've seen do not take such risks with their subjects lives (and she's risking all of them, simultaneously), the only other Ruler we've seen take to such an uncertain field, with or without an heir, was Stanley when he thought his last City was doomed no matter what he did. Now his side is on the upswing he only goes out into thoroughly scouted hexes. As for rulers and noble causes, we've seen right few rulers, but they seem to have a fair amount of religious fervour going on all sides at the moment. And yes, we can take her to task for the danger caused by Erf mechanics that make her the load bearing boss of her entire side, because she's ignoring this and going out into the field without out scouts or escorts! That's not Earth ethics, that's anywhere ethics!

She's gambling the lives of every man, woman and beast loyal to Faq on the strength of her luck. And it's a needless, pointless risk. She's worse than every other ruler we've seen. Up to and including Stanley, the poster child for mismanagement.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby joosy » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:15 pm

Whispri wrote:And really, how would he gain by dropping her in a pile of doom unsupported?

Either she succeeds and he wins a victory without risking any of his own troops. Or she loses and he doesn't have to pay her and can disavow any knowledge of her actions.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Roketter » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:21 pm

I don't think Charlie's giving out vital information since Jetstone already knows Ansom's not dead anymore. If King Slately is going to spread the word for free, then Charlie would better do it before him and take some advantage from it... Geting to be the first one who actually CARES to tell Jillian is a good way to get her to trust him. And to gain her full trust, he could help her pop a heir. I mean, Why not ? With enough schmukers and gems, they might be able to speed-pop everything like gobwin knob did. It shouldn't be that costly for Charlie.

And if Jillian starts working with Charlie, the other sides might start doing it too. Also, we don't know if they are *REALLY* not taking his calls... We'r just taking his word for it. Some other coalition leaders might be getting thinkagrams as well, with similar proposals.

Still i think Charlie's being true for the first time. Even if some coalition leaders still take his calls, they'd be fools to hire him as eagerly as they did before, the treath of Gobwin Knob is unbalancing Erfworld, and they don't like him either, and King Slately managed to keep all his allies even after the epic failure after sending all their troops into an Hydrogen bomb explosion. It'll soon be total war and Charlie could find himself very very lonely.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby DevilDan » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:32 pm

joosy wrote:
Whispri wrote:And really, how would he gain by dropping her in a pile of doom unsupported?

Either she succeeds and he wins a victory without risking any of his own troops. Or she loses and he doesn't have to pay her and can disavow any knowledge of her actions.


Or she weakens his enemies and he doesn't have to pay her. Or he distracts his enemies and attacks from elsewhere. Or he's just a mean bastard.

Charlie's unlikely to get hired by anyone prior to the solidification of the RCCII, and by then Slately's disinformation campaign may have been too successful. In any case, the RCCII, much like the RCC, would be reticent to pay for his services until, at the very least, they felt that they really needed them. Charlie's not too comfortable sitting on the sidelines when it could be his boop next in the royals' crosshairs.
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Mr. Goodwraith » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:38 pm

stm177 wrote:I'm curious how Charlie popped, how he got control of the Arkendish, and how he came to control his own side.

My guess: Charlie was once a predictamancer named John Foresight. :mrgreen:
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby atteSmythe » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:40 pm

I've seen a number of people assert that Parson and crew hadn't thought about interrogating the decrypted, but that's not true - before the last battle of Warchalking, it was mentioned that the intel they had on the city was from the decrypted from Unaroyal:
The Decrypted Unaroyal commanders had said to expect the most resistance to be mounted at the gate, but it would surely be too little to cause concern.
I think we just haven't seen the conversations, but I can't imagine that Parson wouldn't have asked about Charlie (unless, deep down, he really doesn't want to know more than he already suspects) - especially after Ansom specifically told the hamster that he remembers his former life.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Joe22c. » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:49 pm

Despite the people waving their arms around in sensationalist tones, I think it's a bit unrealistic and bad for the story's verisimilitude if the archons knew everything about Charlie.

It would be much more logical (to me, at any rate) for information to be disseminated on a hierarchical basis, so while an archon would know much more about Charlie than a random unit (based on the employer-employee relationship) you wouldn't expect the archon to know ALL of Charlie's secrets.

Consider this; even before the advent of Decryption, one could always capture and not croak an archon, then interrogate the shit out of her. Recall Wanda and JillionsofMuscles.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Furousha » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:52 pm

PrinceLKlar wrote:On the other side of the world is a pretty vauge place to be located.

Here are my thoughts. Charlie is a tool. "He" is not a unit that is attuned. IT is the tool, the dish. That's Charlie's secret. That's what it doesn't want people to find out. If Stanly learns this, he will want it. If the RCC learns this, they will want it. And It, I think, wants Parson. If Charlie has to finally be used, why not the best mind out there. The only picture I remember seeing of Charlie, is the dish. There are no citys. It has no capitol. It has no lands. It has no other units than the Archons, it's "special unit" and units cost money, something Charlie can only get from others. Charlie has got to pay upkeep and has no other means to get schmuckers. If the dish is all about thinkamancy, then why can't it become sentient after so many years of sitting there thinking to itself.

Anyway, that's how I think of it, and will until proven otherwise.

As for Charlie being in trouble, I think it is. I just don't think it's scared. If nobody hires Charlie, Chralie can't pay upkeep. That would suck, but how long did the dish wait and plan to get to this point? Pretty sure it can do it again. Charlie is just playing all the angles again.



huh. I actually kinda like that. There seems to be about as much to support that theory as any other theory that's been come up with. and if there's one thing that is predictable about Rob's twists it's that they're unpredictable. At this point I would expect Charlie to be anything but what he is portrayed to be. I like the Charlie is a girl thing, but i think i like this one even more.

Couple of things that might (or might not) contradict this theory:

Maggie specifically refers to Charlie in the masculine tense, though the erfworlders may think he is male because that is what he wants them to think

His voice would seem to be masculine, being that this is text based we don't have any direct proof of that, but every character who has interacted with him has not made any indication that his voice sounds female... once again, his voice could sound this way because he's talking in people's heads and that's how he chooses to sound.

It's like that movie Contact, you know, the one where the chick contacts this super advanced Alien race and at the end they "choose" to appear to her as a human because it saves on special effects cos... er... that was what "would be easiest for her to see"? I'm sure Tv Tropes has a huge list of other examples of this, it's pretty common in the sci-fi/fantasy genre...

The one real big hitch in it as far as I can see is that we've never seen any other Arkentool use it's powers and special units on it's own. the Pliers didn't make their own Decrypted in Ansom's Control, So this theory relies on the premise that the Dish can pop it's special units with no wielder when the pliers cannot (at least not with an attuned wielder, and for the few seconds that it had no wielder)

Additionally the Plier's dont make their wielder a master class Croakamancer and dont seem to be a master class croakamancer in and of themselves, similarly while the hammer appears to allow Stanley to use some shockamancy, it doesn't make him a masterclass shockamancer... but again, we are dealing with a tool designed to allow a properly attuned wielder unrivaled power over thought... It seems to be like the current real world equivalent of the question: can a sufficiently powerful enough machine designed to think (well, calculate to be precise) become self aware? can an unparalleled thinkamancy artifact think?

all and all it's pretty far outside the box as far as theories go, but that doesn't mean anything, and it's got about as much supporting arguments, and holes in the theory as every other theory out there... I for one am kinda hoping it's right, I would be so utterly disappointed if Charlie was nothing more than homage to Charlie's Angles and was just a regular old erfworlder. I'm really pulling for Charlie to be anything but just a unit like Stanley... be it an outsider like parson, the dish itself, or something no yet speculated at...
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Decorus » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:54 pm

If Archons are units solely created by the Arkendish then its highly unlikely that they can be interrogated.
We also have not seen any other units besides Archons used by Charles.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Mr. Goodwraith » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:57 pm

I'm wondering exactly how Charlie got the pics from Orgchart. Would he have been able to get a veiled archon in and out of that hex somehow, or did someone in the city -- nominally loyal to someone else's side -- send him a thinkagram before fleeing or being croaked? If the latter, it leads me to the question: Does Charlie have spies working many of the major cities? If so, he'd better hope none of them get decrypted and questioned, or Parson is going to have a really good idea how he gets his intel. In fact, Parson could use a decrypted agent to feed Charlie disinformation; would Charlie be able to tell that an agent had been turned if the agent is careful not to expose his or her livery in a thinkagram?
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Joe22c. » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:59 pm

If Archons are units solely created by the Arkendish then its highly unlikely that they can be interrogated.


Please explain the logic/reasoning behind this.

From what I understand Archons are:

1. sentient
2. in posession of knowledge and
3. capable of feeling pain, emotional or otherwise.

Your statement, thus, makes little sense to me.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Decorus » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:03 pm

Something tells me that Charles being able to intercept the Eyebooks is just one example of how he gathers intelligence.

1. Yes
2. Definitely
3. Does not matter.

Why because if Archons are summoned Magical Constructs like Golems which is what they appear to be then its impossible to interrogate them.
You interrogate them they go poof when they violate Charles orders.
Given how Charles responded to Parsons is its very likely he has never had an Archon captured let alone converted to another side.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby raphfrk » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:07 pm

PrinceLKlar wrote:Supposing for a second that is a city the dish is sitting on, how big is the dish?
Booping huge, that's how big. That looks more like a pedestal to me.


I think it is a mountain base, rather than a city (though technically still his capital). The base might be little more than a few rooms, as Charlie values seclusion more than having a large city.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Joe22c. » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:09 pm

Why because if Archons are summoned Magical Constructs like Golems which is what they appear to be then its impossible to interrogate them.
You interrogate them they go poof when they violate Charles orders.
Given how Charles responded to Parsons is its very likely he has never had an Archon captured let alone converted to another side.


First of all, the only golems in this universe that come to mind immediately are Sizemore's, and they seem entirely distinct in terms of sentience compared to the archons. If you can think of more golem examples, feel free to list them, but I don't think you'll find any examples that display a level of intelligence/sentience/"humanity" that archons demonstrate.

Next;

You interrogate them they go poof when they violate Charles orders.


Where did this even come from? You have NO evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to even suggest this to be likely. That's pure speculation, and I'm sorry, but just because you say that's what would happen doesn't make it so. Admittedly I am also speculating -but the difference is that I'm saying successfully interrogating an archon is a possibility whereas you are saying it's certainly impossible. The onus, then, falls on you to prove it.

Given how Charles responded to Parsons is its very likely he has never had an Archon captured let alone converted to another side


Never having an archon captured =/= an archon being immune to interrogation.

I'm sorry, but you're doing a poor job of persuasion at the moment.
Last edited by Joe22c. on Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby SteveMB » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:10 pm

Joe22c. wrote:Despite the people waving their arms around in sensationalist tones, I think it's a bit unrealistic and bad for the story's verisimilitude if the archons knew everything about Charlie.

It would be much more logical (to me, at any rate) for information to be disseminated on a hierarchical basis, so while an archon would know much more about Charlie than a random unit (based on the employer-employee relationship) you wouldn't expect the archon to know ALL of Charlie's secrets.

Consider this; even before the advent of Decryption, one could always capture and not croak an archon, then interrogate the shit out of her. Recall Wanda and JillionsofMuscles.

True, the Archons almost certainly do not know all of Charlie's secrets. However, a couple dozen of them probably know enough of his secrets between them to give him a major headache (especially since willing converts to another side are likely to give up more information that reluctant interrogation subjects).
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Joe22c. » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:11 pm

^ Steve: Agreed.

My main beef was with people who thought all of Charlie's secrets were compromised.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Decorus » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:21 pm

So do you have any proof that an Archon can be interrogated successfully?

So speculating that Charles who has so far shown to have zero units other then Archons does not by nature share everything with his Archons is also baseless.

Consider this no one has met Charles, Archons handle contracts, thinkgrams and everything for Charles. (Any conversations made by those who are decrypted are now vulnerable)

The only reason why Charles would literally entrust them with such things is if they are impossible for someone else to control or manipulate.

(People seem to forget the Arkendish seems to be a massively powerful thinkamancy artifact)

They could be we don't know the extent of the Archon's knowledge of Charles operations and secrets.
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby konmanrocks » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:33 pm

heres a thought for how Charlie gets his intelligence. If he can hack the eyebooks, what makes any other from of thinkamancy safe? maybe he can listen in on other kingdoms thinkimancers as they send messages to others?
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Re: Summer Updates - 041

Postby Unclever title » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:34 pm

I'm really liking the "Charlie is the Arkendish" theory but that's mostly because I like the idea of sentient AI so much. (Of course a sentient object of Thinkamancy wouldn't really be "artificially intelligent" especially if created by the Titans like the other sentient denizens of Erf.)

However there are a few avenues on this as well, I'm noticing a distinct difference between how Charlie interacts with Jillian and how Charlie interacts with Parson. Granted it may simply be too soon to tell as we've really only had detailed info on Charlie's strangeness in his interactions with Parson however I'm extrapolating from this that Charlie adjusts how he talks in his thinkagrams based on who he talks to, modifies his personality, if you will. With Parson he was all about the playful banter, and in fact using the eyebooks may indeed have been a decision to speak with Parson in a less threatening and a way Parson was more accustomed to (As to how Charlie found that out...). With Jillian Charlie was much more "honest" and straight to the point.

It's also granted that for anyone to be as successful as Charlie at what he does would have to be like a con man in some regard, either that or actually be exceedingly likable which clearly (to Erfworlders) Charlie is not.

But if Charlie "is the Arkendish" then the possibilities of Charlie's modifiable personality are much greater. Then Charlie may not necessarily be the Arkendish itself but a creation of it. An Avatar. If the Arkendish can feel and channel the flow hundreds or thousands of thoughts then Charlie may be an amalgamation of them, which would definitely explain his strangeness.

The implication here is that the Arkendish did this by itself of course it may well be that its previous owner (perhaps deceased) used the Arkendish to create Charlie to continue his "side" after he croaked.

This could potentially shed some light on the origin of the Archons as well, they may be units in the traditional sense of having been popped or perhaps they were created from thinkamancy like Charlie and not much different from Sizemore's crap Golems... particularly depending on what thoughts they were created from :D . They might also have been other units prior but "Assimilated" if you will or some way turned into Archons.

Perhaps that's what he has in store for Jillian. That might offer another explanation for his "honesty" when speaking to her. I think Jillian would fit right in. (well sort of...)

ZOUNDS! I just thought of something! If this were to be the case for the Arkendish then it would thus have something else in common with the other two Arkentools. The Arkenpliers resurrects the croaked into decrypted, the Arkenhammer tames Dwagons, the Arkendish might then convert girls with strong personalities into Archons!
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