Summer Updates - 042

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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby Gez » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:54 am

HailGreen28 wrote:1. The Heir Issue: Jetstone has a new Chief Warlord. But does Slately have an heir? What if Ansom is that heir? Could Ansom literally take control of ALL Jetstone if he croaks Slately soon?

Croaking? Why not capturing? It would seem logical that heirloom and positions of command are lost when croaked, and not restored when uncroaked/decrypted. For a standard unit, that's not a problem since they have no title. But capture Slately and don't croak him, and you get control over all the Jetstone forces.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:00 am

OneHugeTuck wrote:
moose o death wrote:

but then again so could stanley's dwagons.


That'd be hot. A giganto momma of all dwagons in a cave somewhere, that is the reason wild dwagons pop.


Thank you very much. Now I can't stop wondering what exactly Stanley is doing out there in the lonely mountains and woods with his "hammer" to get new dwagons. :?

At the center of the room squatted an enormous planning table covered in maps and figurines. Stanley had a long croupier's rake for moving the pieces around, which he did without apparent purpose. Ansom still held out hope that Stanley was computing some complex strategy beyond his own immediate ability to grasp, or perhaps that the Titans were guiding his hand. But as he watched his Overlord move a siege tower stack onto a river, this appeared increasingly unlikely.


Very interesting. And funny.
The decrypting changed Ansom very subtly. He not only loves Wanda, he also got respect for his overlord. Old Ansom considered Stanley a complete idiot (he got a point), new Ansom believes he is capable of complex strategic planes. Well, until now.
Ansom, Parson, Wanda and Stanley are a nice little dysfunctional family: Stanley as the father (of the fatherland), Wanda as the mom (she summoned Parson and repopped Ansom), Ansom as the neglected older brother and Parson as the wunderkind.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:23 am

Gez wrote:Croaking? Why not capturing? It would seem logical that heirloom and positions of command are lost when croaked, and not restored when uncroaked/decrypted. For a standard unit, that's not a problem since they have no title. But capture Slately and don't croak him, and you get control over all the Jetstone forces.


I disagree. By capturing, you'd only get control over a side with very low loyalty.

If I were Ansom, I'd take out the ruler and the heir.
You can decrypt them, and they're absolutely loyal, require no upkeep, and now get the croakmancer bonus.
All of their cities freeze, and you can take them one by one, with overwhelming force, to decrypt at your leisure.

If you hit Jetstone while they're defensive, they won't have many field units, so you've got a good chance of being able to convert the entire side.
Positions of command are determined by the overlord of the side - you don't want them to keep their authority unless you can use them.
Magic items remain after death, so no loss there.

Heck, you might even be able to march the now-decrypted ruler into each frozen city in turn, and trick them into opening the gates and welcoming you while you take the garrison.
Since each city freezes, you might be able to pull the same trick on each one.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby raphfrk » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:51 am

moose o death wrote:ha ha smartarse

no-one has parents, but heirs seem to call their overlord father/mother for no damn reason really.

essentially if the heirs do, so could the pikers and stabbers. but then again so could stanley's dwagons. yet i'm sure stanley wouldn't consider any of his units children. it's only the snooty royals who claim "they can trace their lineage back to the titans" who would even bother with such things.

so long story short any one who thinks stanley is ansom's son is an idiot.


You could argue that Royals are different. If you are a king, you get an extra build option of "pop royal". An overlord of the same side wouldn't be able to pop that unit. However, they would presumably have access to all of the other unit types.

Also, the "pop royal" build option could effectively be different for each particular royal. There is a direct connection between the King and the popped Royal.

If all of the royals in the world died, then it wouldn't be possible to pop any more of them, so it is like a lineage.

HailGreen28 wrote:Despite that Stanley and Parson don't get along, seems the only reason Stanley lit into Parson about inspection duties was the question of Duty. And he took advice from Parson despite possibly exposing himself to danger in doing so.


Well, he obviously liked his proposal to obtain lots of dwagons. Also, he accepted his advice on having the dragon relay system.

shneekeythelost wrote:As far as going straight after Jetstone, I can see it. Knock out the command structure in one fell swoop, mop up individual units. Everyone goes into stasis as a Neutral City, the princes are Barbarians (just like Jillian, who was designated Heir, turned Barbarian when FAQ was taken). Not to mention blowing the diplomatic center of the RCC2 out of the water, and shattering, or at least disorganizing, the only force capable of harming them.


Presumably, Ossomer has been promoted to Heir. Ideally, both Ossomer and Slateley need to be taken out on the same turn. Otherwise, Ossomer will become king as soon as Spacerock falls.

Furthermore, if you pull back and consolidate, you also give your opponent time to get his feet back under him. Right now, they've got the tactical advantage of being the aggressor. Keep it up, keep the opponents off their feet, and you maintain that advantage. Let them get some breathing room, and RCC2 *WILL* put together an army large enough to challenge you. You don't want that. You want them off balance, scattered, trying to figure out what the boop is happening.


Right, Ansom's plan is based on 14 cities popping units. However, Wanda (and now also Stanley) can effectively pop units faster than their cities can. Assuming it takes 5 turns per dwagon and Stanley can capture 2.5 per turn, he is equivalent to 12.5 cities dedicated to popping dwagons. Wanda is probably similar, if not more, while in expansion/combat mode.

Going straight for Jetstone is good. But spending multiple turns is not. Better idea: Take Unaroyal. Decrypt everything from that battle. Take entire Decrypted force, plus the entire Dragon Relay, and stomp all over Jetstone.


Ideally, you want a sudden strike at Jetstone. Perhaps, as they are taking Uniroyal, they should converge all their spare units in 1 city near Jetstone. That way, once the last Uniroyal city falls, they can instantly launch at Spacerock.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby LordDarksea » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:52 am

Apologies if somebody else has drawn attention to this before, my brain is running on next-to-empty, but something i found particularly interesting in that update is that lack of sleep seems to be affecting Ansom. I assume that the uncroaked don't need to sleep, i never let my zombies sleep anyway and they don't seem to suffer for it ;), but i think it shows just how powerful the decrypting is. I'd imagined them as being incredibly convincing uncroaked with their mental powers reanimated as well. I guessed that they would be able to mock sleep before, but the actual need to sleep puts them closer to fully resurrected in my mind.

Like I said, may have been picked up on before (or mentioned previously in an update and slipped my mind), but i found that quite fascinating.

Anyway, if anyone knows a good thinkamancer, i could do with that Ennervate spell of Maggies...???

please.

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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:53 am

They could caputure Slatley and the heir and force them to ally with GK. That way they instantly would have the complete forces of Jetstone as additional forces. Without first wasting time and effort in actually attacking and croaking. They could guaranty their loyalty by taking the king and al heirs to Gobwin Knob or an nearby town and defend Jetstone with Gobwin Knob units, except for one original Jetstone unit. If jetstone ever breaks the alliance, Stanley could immediately order the king croaked and the capital captured, ending the side of Jetstone.

Advantages: GK can squeeze Jetstone for every schmucker he want's and other kingdoms don't have to fight to the dead, because this offers them a chance to survive, bringing a moment of distrust into the remaining RCC. Also this gets GK an tactical advantage: they can split their expedition forces and order the chief warlord of Jetstone to lead their forces to another battle place. As long as there is one GK warlord with them G still can claim the captured cities. For Stanley this has an additional benefit: he brings another force into play, that he controls and not Wanda.
What a shame the Stanley isn't smart enough to come up with this, and Slately probably rather fights to dead instead of bowing before a simple infantry.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby Gez » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:07 am

MarbitChow wrote:I disagree. By capturing, you'd only get control over a side with very low loyalty.

Who cares? That's still higher loyalty than if they're actively your enemies. You seize the head and paralyze (or at least, hamper greatly) the whole side by keeping it hostage, until you can find, croak and decrypt all potential heirs. Then you kill the king and convert it, and all the field units freeze, ready to be harvested.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby JustDoug » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:38 am

warriortribble wrote:
DevilDan wrote:Obsequious? I read it more as the fervor of a new convert and a disciplined soldier speaking deferentially to his chief warlord. That was before he found out more about Parson's unusual origin and before he realized that Parson doesn't share freshly-minted faith in Stanley's cause.
Well, tomāto tomäto on the obsequious/fervor part. Still, it's obvious Wanda and Stanley (who Ansom does respect) value Parson. By all rights Ansom shouldn't feel this negatively about Parson but he still does.


I read it more that Ansom is feeling a little petulant and somewhat stung in his pride, but doesn't so much dislike Parson as not know what to make of him. "Neither fish nor fowl," and all that. Parson isn't Royal at all, but certainly isn't Common, etc... Parson used what was most certainly a "dishonorable trick" to take out the pre-decrypted Ansom but still whupped the Alliance. From all signs, Parson has a Titanic mandate, but certainly isn't the sort to sing their praises or perhaps even believe that there is such a thing. To any Erfworlder, that's going to feel not quite right and seem odd.

That's what's got Ansom pouting, and is not the same feeling Ansom might have for Stanley.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby Yosarian » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:46 am

Tubal-Cain wrote:If Slately is croaked, would Ansome's brothers each revert to barbarian and need to reclaim Spacerock (or some other capital) before they could begin to rule?


Not if Ossamer is royal Heir. And he probably is.

I suspect that it costs a lot of shmuckers to make a non-royal unit your heir, like happened with Stanley, but if you pop a royal, they're probably your heir by default. (which is probably part of the reason it takes so many turns to pop a royal heir.)

Anyway, if there's a heir or two, then even if Stately is croaked, the side will continue. They'll be crippled, though; their main production city turned, the coalition will probably fall apart, Translyvanio (and FAQ along with them) will fall back and defend themselves, and Hagar will probably turn on them and try to take back the cities he lost. If Ansom can pull this off, it's a good move.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby DevilDan » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:47 am

Glenn wrote:I can't see a major policy disagreement developing between Ansom and Parson as long as Ansom remains totally devoted to his Mistress Wanda, and Wanda treats Parson's strategic suggestions as gospel. So I don't see any chance that Ansom's idea to decapitate Jetstone will go ahead over Parson's objections.


Except for the fact that Stanley likes it and that there is at least some merit to the idea? In any case, Parson is likely to favor any course that slows their expansion and allows more strategic concerns to take precedence.

warriortribble wrote:
DevilDan wrote:Obsequious? I read it more as the fervor of a new convert and a disciplined soldier speaking deferentially to his chief warlord. That was before he found out more about Parson's unusual origin and before he realized that Parson doesn't share freshly-minted faith in Stanley's cause.
Well, tomāto tomäto on the obsequious/fervor part. Still, it's obvious Wanda and Stanley (who Ansom does respect) value Parson. By all rights Ansom shouldn't feel this negatively about Parson but he still does.


Just what part of "fanaticism" do you not get? New converts tend to trend towards the "humorless" and towards intolerance for those who have different opinions.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby Yosarian » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:00 pm

raphfrk wrote:Presumably, Ossomer has been promoted to Heir. Ideally, both Ossomer and Slateley need to be taken out on the same turn. Otherwise, Ossomer will become king as soon as Spacerock falls.


My hunch would be that with royals, there is a natural line of sucession; that is, if Stateley and Ossomer both were croaked at once, but Tramennis lived, that Tramennis would become King.

I suspect that the expensive (and rarely done) business of appointing a non-royal heir is only needed if you don't have a royal heir; if you have one, they're probably your heir automatically.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby Glenn » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:01 pm

I really don't think it's fair to describe Ansom's doubts about Parson as "petulant" or "pouting". Given what he knows, his attitude toward Parson seems entirely rational to me. Isn't it correct to say that Parson isn't motivated by loyalty to either Wanda or the Titans? The fact is, Parson really is an alien being to Erfworlders. Given their complete lack of information about Earth, they can' t begin to understand his motives, his goals, or his intentions. If a vastly intelligent alien from an unknown world suddenly appeared on Earth and started manipulating our politics, wouldn't you wonder how far it could really be trusted?
Last edited by Glenn on Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby mutecebu » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:19 pm

I use this tactic all the time in Fire Emblem. Good times.

Anyways, I just realized what's happening here: it's Risk.
One side turns in their cards (often representing technological advances). They then rush across their enemies, taking lots of new territories. Often, they will eventually spread themselves too thin, and stop. On the following turn, the enemies take back what they lost. A wise player will either quit while ahead, and fortify the new territory, or else push ahead until they eliminate an enemy entirely.

The critical difference lies in Wanda's Decrypt ability. It is far more potent offensively than defensively. I'm assuming that you can re-Decrypt croaked units that have been decrypted before (though that's a big assumption). As long as they have enough forces to win a single battle, they suffer NO losses, and gain all the enemy units. Such an army would be best consolidated into one force, NOT leaving troops behind to defend cities. It could storm across the world like Napoleon, and because there's no death nor upkeep, there is no way to get bogged down. The only thing that could defeat it is a last alliance of everybody else that could win just one single all-or-nothing battle.

What do you need cities for? Units, and money to pay upkeep. Wanda's army has no need for either. Consolidating is a good idea, but they shouldn't have left anyone behind to consolidate in the first place. They should not simply rest and prepare, which is the mistake Ansom made last time.

EDIT: Glen makes a really good point.

Anyway, if anyone knows a good thinkamancer, i could do with that Ennervate spell of Maggies...???

I do, but the words are different here:
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby brendanmcguigan » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:47 pm

It's fascinating seeing inside the mind of a decrypted. Hearing Ansom's thoughts, my first and strongest feeling is how like an Idaho Ghola he sounds. Which makes me wonder if there will be a trigger point (sacking his father's city?) that will return his will to him.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby HandofShadows » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:00 pm

brendanmcguigan wrote:It's fascinating seeing inside the mind of a decrypted. Hearing Ansom's thoughts, my first and strongest feeling is how like an Idaho Ghola he sounds. Which makes me wonder if there will be a trigger point (sacking his father's city?) that will return his will to him.


Considering that it's Ansoms idea to attack Jetstone I don't see that being very likley.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby raphfrk » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:37 pm

HandofShadows wrote:Considering that it's Ansoms idea to attack Jetstone I don't see that being very likley.


Well, standing in the ruins of Spacerock, and looking at the corpses of his 2 brothers, might have more of an emotional effect than considering the tactical necessitity of capturing a city figurine on a table.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby Glenn » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:40 pm

Seeing "the corpses of his brothers" (or father) won't have the same emotional impact if Wanda immediately decypts them.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby Retconjurer » Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:01 pm

If I were Ansom I would feel ambivalent about dealing with Parson (though I think part of the issue is definitely jealousy on Ansom's part). It's like if you're a jew and suddenly you meet this prophet. And this prophet performs the miracles that should approve him to you. And then the prophet turns to you and tells you about this guy who spends his days in the houses of drunkards, thieves and prostitutes (Parson dislikes war, lies, uses WMDs, and he's a non-believer. To Ansom's mind, these are massive flaws.) and tells you that he's "all that" as it were. That the whole of the divine plan turns around this guy who doesn't walk in the ways of your fathers (or so it appears). And you say to the prophet, "This guy? Really?" And the Prophet says, "Yes, this guy." And you are utterly perplexed. How could it be this guy? I'd feel pretty sick to my stomach the first few weeks of working with him.
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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby Roszlishan » Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:51 pm

moose o death wrote: i have no problem with speculation, i submit enough ideas other people do not like, but that speculation is counterproductive as it starts out with clearly impossible situations and builds from there. that would be like speculating barrack obama was the second gunmen in the JFK assasination. it's based on two things that could never plausibly be connected.


Exactly so!

I'm delighted that to see that someone else has a similar aesthetic dividing plausible and enjoyable speculation from wild and bizarre invention; thank you for laying it out clearly.

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Re: Summer Updates - 042

Postby build6 » Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:58 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:But I do think I want to kill him. :D


Heh, this brings to mind that bit after Parson had the volcano uncroaked, there was that conversation with Wanda where she described Stanley, what was it, "seemed an imbecile" :-P
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