Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Smoker » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:44 am

Perhaps its like the conversation Parson and Sizemore had about throwing bricks without the archery special. Having the special makes you good at it, but not having the special doesn't mean its impossible.

So for the two examples: Ansom (I presume,) does not have any seige specials, but that doesn't mean he couldn't give a wall a good kick. A seriously weak wall and a strong boot make for one successful seige.

Same applies for the cloth golem. Maybe his attack is only doing a fraction of the damage caused by the sappers, but he's doing some damage, as well as taking some hits for the sappers.

This could also apply to Jillian pulling out a throwing knife - would she not need the archery special? Or would the difference in levels between her and sidehug make it viable...

Seems to me that certain specials are not so much exclusive abilities as extreme talents. (Maybe everytime someone jumps, its like an untrained use of the Flying special :P)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Smoker » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:58 am

Also on the topic of sustainability, there's a cubic buttload of theories, but my favourite one:

Units that level cost more upkeep, and the unstoppable occurance of barbarian and feral units makes not leveling impossible.

Therefore even if there was world peace and cities only popped a minimum number of units - sooner or later a side is gonna start starving. After that, its cultural: Sides know that its only a matter of time before someone attacks, so they pop defenders, which then speeds up the process by raising upkeep.

But yeah, there are other explanations, but this one is subtle enough that its believable for it not to be explicitly mentioned in comic.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Lamech » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:29 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Nowhere is specialized siege of any kind mentioned. GK troops just waltzed over a low-level wall thanks to their superior stats.
Then mention wienner rammers are busting down the gate.
But no, he couldn't see that they would need to do more than blast at any archers on the gate as the wiener-rammers broke in.

Plus dwagons have siege, and the archons + ansom could fly over the wall.

Smoker wrote:Units that level cost more upkeep, and the unstoppable occurance of barbarian and feral units makes not leveling impossible.
Abilities seem to cost money. When Parson got fielded his upkeep went up. Archons have increasing upkeep based on how good they are, and I would argue that archons value comes from their abilities, not the ability to die to a single arrow. However, I suspect that this doesn't explain it. I would suspect that a high level unit is more upkeep efficient than a low level unit. Hence you can just disband units as your side gets higher and higher leveled.

Karadan wrote:Well, Parson did make a note somewhere about wondering what would happen if he tried to 'invent' anything from Stupidworld in Erfworld. We haven't yet seen any evidence that he has attempted this (beyond a picnic basket, which worked out well). But given that it is Parson, I doubt he hasn't tried something that we haven't seen yet. Also, with the purple dwagons there really isn't much need for building siege engines.
I would still think that Parson would have tried to get something produced. Even just a bunch of bricks to lob from the wall. Think of all the free hits if those few thousand uncroaked on the wall all had 10 bricks. 1 in 200 base. 1 in 20 for all ten. Maybe a hundred free hits. I don't know about you, but a hundred free hits seems like a really good deal if a battle is ever close.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:05 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Nowhere is specialized siege of any kind mentioned. GK troops just waltzed over a low-level wall thanks to their superior stats.


All dwagons are siege units. Yellows destroy from above. Purples use sonics to shatter walls. Reds are going to burn through wooden walls. *Maybe* pinks are not siege, or maybe exploding bubbles wreck walls.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Lamech » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:11 pm

Kreistor wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:Nowhere is specialized siege of any kind mentioned. GK troops just waltzed over a low-level wall thanks to their superior stats.


All dwagons are siege units. Yellows destroy from above. Purples use sonics to shatter walls. Reds are going to burn through wooden walls. *Maybe* pinks are not siege, or maybe exploding bubbles wreck walls.
Purples, reds, and yellows are outright siege. Or at least can damage buildings. Greens can boost the reds, but I would question if they can deal damage directly. We haven't seen bubbles from pinks, lighting from blues or smoke from the blacks hurt buildings.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:15 pm

Lamech wrote:Purples, reds, and yellows are outright siege. Or at least can damage buildings. Greens can boost the reds, but I would question if they can deal damage directly. We haven't seen bubbles from pinks, lighting from blues or smoke from the blacks hurt buildings.


Do any of those facts change the fact that they had siege with them?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby CNagy » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:18 pm

Lamech wrote:Greens can boost the reds, but I would question if they can deal damage directly. We haven't seen bubbles from pinks, lighting from blues or smoke from the blacks hurt buildings.


It could be that all dwagons are siege units, but some dwagons are better at it than others--i.e. their breath weapons deal damage. It's entirely possible that pinks, blues, and blacks just physically smash into walls the way rams smash into gates and are better suited to engaging the enemy if you have other more efficient siege-capable units.

Also, I'd be surprised if the blue's lightning wasn't siege-friendly, as lightning bolts shattering stone and whatnot is pretty much an old trope of RPGs (except on the rare occasion that they bounce off walls. :D )
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:48 am

Kreistor wrote:
Lamech wrote:Purples, reds, and yellows are outright siege. Or at least can damage buildings. Greens can boost the reds, but I would question if they can deal damage directly. We haven't seen bubbles from pinks, lighting from blues or smoke from the blacks hurt buildings.


Do any of those facts change the fact that they had siege with them?


Do any of those facts change the fact that it's been shown there's plenty of high-move units in Erfworld that can bust down walls or just fly over them, thus justifying the need for some sort of permanent garrisons?

Call dwagons siege if you want. But considering that they're fast, tough, mobile and are more than able to wreck havoc in melee while throwing save-or-die attacks, they're clearly not specialized in that task and can be used for much more than taking down walls.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:06 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Call dwagons siege if you want. But considering that they're fast, tough, mobile and are more than able to wreck havoc in melee while throwing save-or-die attacks, they're clearly not specialized in that task and can be used for much more than taking down walls.


Siege is a special, not a specialization. Flying and Leadership are specials, too, but you aren't limited to having just Flight or Leadership. Dwagons are more than a one trick wonder, but so is Caesar. Sizemore is Light and Caster, and no more "specialized" than anyone else.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Balerion » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:36 am

We have seen Jillian take cities from the air with no siege at all (never mentioned her gummies have siege), so we know that flying mounts can get you in. That means you need a garrison to prevent 50 move gwiffons or similar from dropping an army over your walls and taking the city. Units don't need the siege special to threaten a city.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:09 pm

Balerion wrote:We have seen Jillian take cities from the air with no siege at all (never mentioned her gummies have siege), so we know that flying mounts can get you in. That means you need a garrison to prevent 50 move gwiffons or similar from dropping an army over your walls and taking the city. Units don't need the siege special to threaten a city.


The question was whether a single scout, not a flying scout, could take a city. We are all perfectly aware that fliers can pass through airspace and take courtyard. Or tunnelers can tunnel to dungeon and take garrison from there without the siege special, for that matter.

The question is whether a scout, with no special, can take an unguarded city.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Lamech » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:41 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Balerion wrote:We have seen Jillian take cities from the air with no siege at all (never mentioned her gummies have siege), so we know that flying mounts can get you in. That means you need a garrison to prevent 50 move gwiffons or similar from dropping an army over your walls and taking the city. Units don't need the siege special to threaten a city.


The question was whether a single scout, not a flying scout, could take a city. We are all perfectly aware that fliers can pass through airspace and take courtyard. Or tunnelers can tunnel to dungeon and take garrison from there without the siege special, for that matter.

The question is whether a scout, with no special, can take an unguarded city.

You know, maybe. Units without archery can shoot. Poorly. Units without a rhyme-o-mancy special can still sing. I would think it possible that a unit without a siege special could eventually axe its way through a couple gates, or dig handholds into a wall, and climb over.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Housellama » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:44 pm

Lamech wrote:
Kreistor wrote:The question was whether a single scout, not a flying scout, could take a city. We are all perfectly aware that fliers can pass through airspace and take courtyard. Or tunnelers can tunnel to dungeon and take garrison from there without the siege special, for that matter.

The question is whether a scout, with no special, can take an unguarded city.

You know, maybe. Units without archery can shoot. Poorly. Units without a rhyme-o-mancy special can still sing. I would think it possible that a unit without a siege special could eventually axe its way through a couple gates, or dig handholds into a wall, and climb over.


IRL, walls are only truly useful when defended. Without the pressure of defenders being present, a unit would have a lot of time to figure out how to get through/over/around/otherwise penetrate the walls. If there's no one shooting at you or dumping stuff on you and/or otherwise preventing you from dealing with the walls themselves, the physical defenses themselves are ultimately useless. Physical barriers slow armies down. They don't stop them.

A straight up undefended city could be penetrated and conquered by a lone scout if that scout had the time and opportunity that a lack of opposition creates. Of course, this is academic. We've never seen a completely undefended city. We have seen armies abandon cities, but we've never seen a city that was left completely empty in (relative) peacetime. Any Side that left a city totally undefended quite frankly deserves to have it taken.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:47 am

Housellama wrote:if that scout had the time and opportunity that a lack of opposition creates.


And that's a two part problem.

1. If the scout has no Leadership, it obeys orders. If ordered to scout, it will scout, and not even try to take a city alone.

2. The Chief Warlord that is unaware of a non-leadership scout's location or actions will end Turn, not knowing the scout needs six more hours to chip through a wall.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Karadan » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:37 pm

The second point there is moot. As revealed during the summer update, time moves at different speeds in different hexes, based on how long a unit needs to be in a particular hex before the turn ends. As Maggi (or was it Sizemore? Or both?) explained, a scout could spend an hour scouting out a hex, then report back, and only a few seconds may have passed for you. Similarly if a scout needed 6 more hours to breach a wall before the end of turn, then time would simply go much much faster in his hex, and he would have the 6 hours required before his side ended their turn.

Your first point is also tenuous, as units don't mindlessly obey orders. Duty compels them to do what is best for their side, even if they have to disregard orders to do so, and a scout that locates an undefended enemy city is most likely going to figure that capturing that city is better for his side than the scouting information he is supposed to provide.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby drachefly » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:05 pm

Ah, but if it took, say, 19 hours to break down that wall, he wouldn't be able to. I still haven't seen any sign that any one hex gets more than 24 hours a day.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:52 pm

Karadan wrote:Your first point is also tenuous, as units don't mindlessly obey orders. Duty compels them to do what is best for their side


Duty affects commanders only. It does not affect normal units. Sorry, zero initiative from the peons.

The second point there is moot. As revealed during the summer update, time moves at different speeds in different hexes


SummerUpdate29]A second was "one-thousand-one." A minute was sixty of those. An hour was sixty minutes, and a day was twenty-four hours.

At least, within a given hex.[/quote]

You only have 24 hours in the day, eight hours minimum for night, giving 16 hours to achieve your task, at best, if you have no other Sides to take Turn. How the day is divided on Turns with Sides is not described to my recollection. You are encountering the enemy city, so that demands two Sides and sequential Turns, so that may restrict you to 8 hours. It may appear to take 15 seconds to someone in another hex, but you get only 8 hours, but that is ultimately only because that other Unit only sees a Turn 15 seconds long, because the Unit was not ordered to do anything. A Unit that acts for five minutes will see the 8 hour Unit move over 15 minutes, not 15 seconds.

And if the time is divided up as 1/N of 16 hours where N is the number of Sides/Alliances, then you have even less time. Four hours if there are 4 Sides.



[quote="reignofevil wrote:
Seems like once he reports back any side with a thinkamancer would be able to then say "alright, use your remaining move to attack that city".


Once he reports back, and is ordered to attack the city, he is no longer a scout but a besieger. He may have the Scout special (if that even exists) but he is no longer scouting. The question is whether a city was vulnerable to a scout, not a single attacking non-leadership unit.

And the second part of that, about using a Thinkamancer? Those aren't common. They are a plot device and necessary to Book 1, but don't confuse that with them being more common than other casters. Most scouts will need to report back to a Warlord on foot, not by thought. And we have yet to see a non-Comander unit using a magical device, like a Hat, to report. That may not even be possible. So getting back and reporting will use up much Move, and for a foot unit, that may not leave enough to even return.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby drachefly » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:09 pm

Once he reports back, and is ordered to attack the city, he is no longer a scout but a besieger.


That has got to be the silliest distinction drawn in... I don't know. A large patch of spacetime. Can we just accept that a unit with the scout special could be ordered, "go check out that city, and, if no one happens to be there, attack it." Nowhere did it say scouts can't initiate combat...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Karadan » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:35 pm

drachefly wrote:
Once he reports back, and is ordered to attack the city, he is no longer a scout but a besieger.


That has got to be the silliest distinction drawn in... I don't know. A large patch of spacetime. Can we just accept that a unit with the scout special could be ordered, "go check out that city, and, if no one happens to be there, attack it." Nowhere did it say scouts can't initiate combat...

I have to agree here. The question was not "Can a unit that is scouting accidentally capture a city." The question was "Can a unit that was scouting capture a city." Any attempt to make a distinction between a scout and a unit attacking a city in this context is utterly ridiculous. You may as well declare that a caster can't fight because once they enter a fight they are no longer a caster, but a unit fighting in a fight.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby cheeseaholic » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:38 pm

One of the major problems Parson has with the world is how people are treated like automatons. I'd put a guess in that most scouts would show the minimum of initiative and take an undefended city if they could.

Note that that isn't always going to be possible. A thick high wall might take more hours in the day than the scout has left in its turn, or simply be too low on move to cross the zone. But any thinking unit (so maybe not a bat?) that cares for his or her side at all will likely make the attempt.
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