Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Sieggy » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:34 am

Ummm . . . just because you're a Buddhist doesn't mean you don't know how to kick serious butt. The Shaolin were Buddhists, remember . . .
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Swodaems » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:59 am

Is anyone else having doubts about the continuing economic value of Jillian's service to her side? The way I see it, Jillian's business is facing increasing costs and risks because of Haffaton and Charlie's ever-increasing competition means there are less rewards out there for her to get.

Banhammer may be calling them back because he wants to disband/harvest the Gwiffons. Flyers aren't cheap units and if Jillian's not making a good profit margin off her little force, then Faq may not be able to sustain Jillian's habit.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby badninja » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:09 am

Jillian has always struck me as someone always itching for a fight. She has always seemed to be a little bit of a bully always judging my their strength rather then personality. Look at how she viewed the two warlords one with a special and the one without. Her relationship with Wanda is similar in that she is everything that Jillian loves. So how will Jillian ever react when she finds out Wanda sold out FAQ?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:32 am

Swodaems wrote:Is anyone else having doubts about the continuing economic value of Jillian's service to her side? The way I see it, Jillian's business is facing increasing costs and risks because of Haffaton and Charlie's ever-increasing competition means there are less rewards out there for her to get.


No, because:

1) She wasn't operating near Haffaton, or she would know a lot more about the Uncroaked than she appears to.

2) She provides a completely different type of service to Charlie. They are competitors, but his Upkeep appears to be significant, so he can't afford to undercut Jillian.

3) We now know FAQ has three casters: Predictamancer, Foolamancer, and Lookamancer. That can't be cheap, so Jillian must be able to make enough to keep them going.

4) While Jillian may not bring in some revenue, she brings in infinitely more than his layabouts in FAQ that produce none. You don't disband your only upkeep generating units.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Balerion » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:14 pm

I have to say, I am a little confused as to why everyone seems so eager for Jillian to be wrong and useless... I understand some people don't like her, but assumptions like "she is no longer profitable" when she just executed a mission to receive more units seem to be going a bit far.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Whispri » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:42 pm

Well there's her arrogance for a start.

Kreistor wrote:No, because:

1) She wasn't operating near Haffaton, or she would know a lot more about the Uncroaked than she appears to.

2) She provides a completely different type of service to Charlie. They are competitors, but his Upkeep appears to be significant, so he can't afford to undercut Jillian.

3) We now know FAQ has three casters: Predictamancer, Foolamancer, and Lookamancer. That can't be cheap, so Jillian must be able to make enough to keep them going.

4) While Jillian may not bring in some revenue, she brings in infinitely more than his layabouts in FAQ that produce none. You don't disband your only upkeep generating units.

You realise of course that, for example, Faq's Courtiers will be bringing in schmuckers by managing his Cities, yes? That the courtiers with such duties have likely brought in more wealth relative to their upkeep than any other Unit in the Side? Never mind the vital duties Faq's Casters perform, or the various other methods the Side has of providing income such as Farms.

The Court of Faq's been supporting Jillian in the standard of living to which she is accustomed as much as he supports them, if not more so. Jillian's little better than a Vampire in many ways, she survives on the blood of her victims. The rest of Faq does too in part, but at least they have the decency to be ashamed of it.

Swodaems wrote:Is anyone else having doubts about the continuing economic value of Jillian's service to her side? The way I see it, Jillian's business is facing increasing costs and risks because of Haffaton and Charlie's ever-increasing competition means there are less rewards out there for her to get.

Banhammer may be calling them back because he wants to disband/harvest the Gwiffons. Flyers aren't cheap units and if Jillian's not making a good profit margin off her little force, then Faq may not be able to sustain Jillian's habit.

Actually yes, in a manner of speaking. The time Jillian and company have spent in the field has almost certainly led to a profit on their upkeep, but I don't think she's been paying for Faq's continued existence, I think she's been building up a stockpile. What we're seeing now is probably Banhammer's plan for dealing with the Haffaton situation, which is to sit and home and wait for the problem to go away. They can always pop more Gwiffons in a few hundred turns time if it doesn't.

It's probably Jillian's tête-à-tête with Lord Sidehug that decided the timing.

Kreistor wrote:Totally a matter of perspective. Banhammer tried to turn his combative, warlike daughter into a sparkly-rainbow-and-unicorn--princess. Others of a less aggressive mindset would not resist his pesudo-Buddhist ways. From Jillian's perspective, Banhammer tried to force her into a mold she was not compatible with. As kind as his intent was, he ignored her persona, and did her no kindness.

According to whom? Jillian? It's not his fault she's lunatic who can't live at peace.

ftl wrote:There's only so kind you can be when telling someone that their existence and nature is a "necessary evil".

Also, what seems 'kind' to a Level 1, may very well seem straight-up condescending to a higher-level/higher-rank.

Fighting is what was named a necessary evil. Not the existence of people capable of it. This new Warlord may never see home again, do you expect them to be happy about sending the poor guy off to battle knowing that?

Of the three other Warlords present, two really seem to like Faq and the other at least was interested in news from home.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby dirocyn » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:45 pm

The big reveal here is Faq's predictamancer was named Marie. I don't believe we knew that, before.

There can't be more than one predictamancer named Marie. The one we know is a devious and deceptive plotter, who was instrumental in crafting the summon perfect warlord spell.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby SteveMB » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:54 pm

Whispri wrote:The Court of Faq's been supporting Jillian in the standard of living to which she is accustomed as much as he supports them, if not more so. Jillian's little better than a Vampire in many ways, she survives on the blood of her victims. The rest of Faq does too in part, but at least they have the decency to be ashamed of it.

Is it decency, or is it hypocrisy? One might take the contrary view that the difference between Jillian and the Faq courtiers is that she's honest about it.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Whispri » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:02 pm

SteveMB wrote:
Whispri wrote:The Court of Faq's been supporting Jillian in the standard of living to which she is accustomed as much as he supports them, if not more so. Jillian's little better than a Vampire in many ways, she survives on the blood of her victims. The rest of Faq does too in part, but at least they have the decency to be ashamed of it.

Is it decency, or is it hypocrisy? One might take the contrary view that the difference between Jillian and the Faq courtiers is that she's honest about it.

That is a fair point. They don't seem to be in denial though, from what little we know of them.
Last edited by Whispri on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:10 pm

dirocyn wrote:The big reveal here is Faq's predictamancer was named Marie. I don't believe we knew that, before.


Yeah, we knew this already from Book 1 & Book 2:
Wanda and Predictamancer in FAQ:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F147.jpg

Marie was revealed here:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-24.png
"But when it came to explaining how the fall had happened, how she and Wanda both had escaped destruction in different ways, she wouldn't budge."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby ftl » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:38 pm

Whispri wrote:The Court of Faq's been supporting Jillian in the standard of living to which she is accustomed as much as he supports them, if not more so. Jillian's little better than a Vampire in many ways, she survives on the blood of her victims. The rest of Faq does too in part, but at least they have the decency to be ashamed of it.


It's how every single unit, every single side in all of Erf survives. (Or, at least, every single one that we know of so far - Parson's been planning a peace-only exploit, but hasn't actually done it yet).

No, I think FAQ is the odd one out here, for being ashamed of the way the Titans made them. It makes no more sense for a unit to be ashamed of making money through war than for a lion to be ashamed of eating meat.

According to whom? Jillian? It's not his fault she's lunatic who can't live at peace.


No, it's the fault of the way that THEIR WHOLE BOOPIN WORLD works, that it's impossible or almost impossible to live at peace.

I'm entirely sympathetic to Jillian's view that Banhammer is the one being the lunatic that can't seem to accept that fighting and war is what Erf is made for.

Fighting is what was named a necessary evil. Not the existence of people capable of it.


Eh, it seems like sort of a weak distinction. Remember, people here don't *choose* their profession. They're popped for it. Jillian was created, knowing that her purpose in life was to croak enemies. And she was popped into a court that spent the whole time telling her that her very nature, what she was created to do, is evil.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:35 pm

Whispri wrote:Well there's her arrogance for a start.


Except that people in Erfworld that can cleave others in half actually ARE better than other people. Arrogance is the false belief in superiority. With combat raising her level while Level 1 courtiers meditate, Jillian literally is better at everything important than layabouts. She isn't arrogant... she is literally better than them, by Erfworld's standards.

You realise of course that, for example, Faq's Courtiers will be bringing in schmuckers by managing his Cities, yes?


Only when Jillian is out merc'ing. While in town, she's as capable of managing a city as any courtier, and with her levels, probably better at the job. While she's merc'ing, that function only makes profit for funding upkeep in FAQ if Jillian and her army are making more schmuckers than their own upkeep. So, no, at NO time are the courtiers funding Jillian, unless Banhammer chooses to let her rest and take in lesser revenue.

That the courtiers with such duties have likely brought in more wealth relative to their upkeep than any other Unit in the Side?


Prove Jillian does not do the job better when at FAQ.

Never mind the vital duties Faq's Casters perform, or the various other methods the Side has of providing income such as Farms.


As Chief Warlord, Jillian makes everyone on the Side better. Her levels increase the capacity of every single unit. Consequently, Jillian at all times is partially responsible for everything her bonus assists. Once we know exactly what is on that list, we may find that Jillian generates far more upkeep per day than anyone else... even while relaxing in a bath.

The Court of Faq's been supporting Jillian in the standard of living to which she is accustomed as much as he supports them, if not more so.


Not at ANY time is that true. Jillian's desired "standard of living" is ALWAYS in the field, fighting. For that to work, she MUST make a profit, so when she has her standard of living, no one but her army are supporting it... and in fact, she is clear that her merc'ing was supporting layabouts in FAQ, so she was making profit. Further, we know that Jillian survived a long period as a merc Barbarian, which tells us that without FAQ funding, she survived entirely on her own.

Jillian's little better than a Vampire in many ways, she survives on the blood of her victims.


Everyone on Erfworld survives in this way. It's favoritism to fault Jillian for what is, essentially, a mandatory character trait for long term survival in that world. Please review Caesar's description of why Transylvito extorts and pillages its neighbours. Income is a problem for every side, so faulting Jillian for what everyone else is doing is simple prejudice.

The rest of Faq does too in part, but at least they have the decency to be ashamed of it.


Citation. I see no one in Erfworld ashamed of doing what is necessary to survive. Even Sizemore finds his own rationalization for mass murder. Wonderful Maggie murders and causes brain damage to retain her sanity. Sizemore and Wanda commit mass murder. Parson organizes the annihilation of armies. Stanley massacres cities. Caesar brutalizes cities and extorts. Jack tricks people so they can be captured and murdered. Vanna ends a Turn so two armies can be massacred. In fact, put Jillian on the mountain at the end of Book 1 when Parson tells Maggie that she is only the third worst monster on the volcano, and you would be hard pressed to put Jillian in the top 10. Jillian is, at worst, a weapon you can rent for a while. It is her employers that make up the excuses for having pointed the Jillian-gun at someone.

Kreistor wrote:Totally a matter of perspective. Banhammer tried to turn his combative, warlike daughter into a sparkly-rainbow-and-unicorn--princess. Others of a less aggressive mindset would not resist his pesudo-Buddhist ways. From Jillian's perspective, Banhammer tried to force her into a mold she was not compatible with. As kind as his intent was, he ignored her persona, and did her no kindness.


Whispri wrote:]According to whom? Jillian? It's not his fault she's lunatic who can't live at peace.


And it's Jillian's fault she was born that way? When an adult chooses to create a child, and the child is of a mindset the parent does not agree with, is it the child's fault for being born? The adult chose to take the risk and have a child: the child didn't get a choice to not be born. And we don't even get to blame childhood trauma... she popped like this, as was the will of the Titans.

Jillian is responsible for her actions, but she is not responsible for being different from her father's hopes for her. Banhammer is an idealist, trying to create something others think is literally impossible.

Jillian was, in the end, what FAQ needed to survive and be restored. Had she not been in the field, fighting when FAQ fell, she would have died, too. You're faulting her for being the survivor the Titans wanted her to be, so that FAQ could survive.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Whispri » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:40 pm

Citation? Read this update, the whole bit about war and evil. See also Sizemore's frequent moping (notice the way Future Era Wanda keeps bringing people back from the dead BTW?). Beyond that, Courtiers are far cheaper to maintain than Warlords, they will always be better suited to peaceful tasks, even assuming no class bonuses related to them. As for Jillian being highish level, that just makes her an exceptionally expensive drain on the treasury, her out of hex bonus will be tiny or non-existent, if it even applies outside of fighting. The only Units at Faq that/who might be considered layabouts are the Garrison Units. Oh and Jillian's beloved lifestyle will be much harder to maintain without the backing of a Capital Side. A Capital Side that Jillian is only partly responsible for funding, even before her Warband's Upkeep is considered.

I'm faulting Jillian for being a villainous malefactor and for spitting on people whose strength isn't in their sword arms. Her survival, while a blight on Erf, has nothing to do with that.

ftl wrote:It's how every single unit, every single side in all of Erf survives. (Or, at least, every single one that we know of so far - Parson's been planning a peace-only exploit, but hasn't actually done it yet).

No, I think FAQ is the odd one out here, for being ashamed of the way the Titans made them. It makes no more sense for a unit to be ashamed of making money through war than for a lion to be ashamed of eating meat.

No, it's the fault of the way that THEIR WHOLE BOOPIN WORLD works, that it's impossible or almost impossible to live at peace.

I'm entirely sympathetic to Jillian's view that Banhammer is the one being the lunatic that can't seem to accept that fighting and war is what Erf is made for.

Eh, it seems like sort of a weak distinction. Remember, people here don't *choose* their profession. They're popped for it. Jillian was created, knowing that her purpose in life was to croak enemies. And she was popped into a court that spent the whole time telling her that her very nature, what she was created to do, is evil.

That's not true though, is it? There are no end of peaceful ways for a Unit to support itself. Hunting, fishing, farming, mining, selling Scrolls or plundering Ruins to name but a few. And plenty of non-Capital Sides will manage the same (d'you think Janis ever fights for money?). Even Capital Sides, look at Future Era Gobwin Knob, they'll be swimming in money, fighting only in self defence or for their cause. Future Era Jetstone will manage to maintain a large army without a treasury.

Faq's an odd one. But not because they're caring. When other Sides march to war, they do it against their neighbours, sources of fear capable of destroying everything they hold dear. When Faq marches to war, they do it against Sides that have never heard of them and with whom they have no quarrel. They're the worst.

Irrelevant. The state of the World has no impact whatsoever on Jillian's inability to stay sane after a few weeks spent without fighting. Plenty of Erfians have lived at peace for as long or longer without turning into Jillian.

Unless Jillian's murderous expeditions were launched without his knowledge, which is of course impossible, he can't be the man Jillian claims he is. Fact is, his system worked. His Kingdom fell because Wanda chose to break that system and reveal Faq to the outside World.

Disliking war, does not require disliking the people who fight them for you, anymore than it prevents you from disliking other things more than you dislike war. Being someone whose job it is to fight in war, does not require you to be a Jillian. And speaking of Jillian, she was created to re-establish her Side if/when the worst happened. She didn't care about that purpose when the time came and had to be pressured into doing it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby cheeseaholic » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:15 pm

Whispri wrote:As for Jillian being highish level, that just makes her an exceptionally expensive drain on the treasury


Did I miss something here? I don't recall seeing that anywhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby ftl » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:42 pm

Whispri wrote: Oh and Jillian's beloved lifestyle will be much harder to maintain without the backing of a Capital Side


Well, it seems she survives quite fine without a capital side behind her for quite a while - from after FAQs fall until when she gets her own side. Mostly by doing exactly what she wants - hiring out to sides and fighting.


That's not true though, is it? There are no end of peaceful ways for a Unit to support itself. Hunting, fishing, farming, mining, selling Scrolls or plundering Ruins to name but a few.


Fair enough. I'll rephrase what I said - not every unit, but war is how every capital side we've ever seen sustains itself. That, I think, is correct? Transylvito has it's endless war with Carpool, GK is a permanent aggressor everywhere, FAQ relies on a far-off mercenary to keep their 'peaceful' side going, Jetstone has always sent off its heirs to fight, Goodminton was permanently at war with its neighbors, Haffaton has grand plans for absorbing everyone around them, it seems.

And plenty of non-Capital Sides will manage the same (d'you think Janis ever fights for money?). Even Capital Sides, look at Future Era Gobwin Knob, they'll be swimming in money, fighting only in self defence or for their cause.


GK can do that because of Wanda's arkentool granting them an arbitrarily large army for no upkeep. Yeah, arkentools can break the way the world works, in lots of ways. Most sides don't get arkentools.

Future Era Jetstone will manage to maintain a large army without a treasury.


OK, this I'm not seeing though. Jetstone is a fairly typical fighting side; an empty treasury is a sign of the fact that they're basically about to lose, not a sustainable feature of their economy. They're having to harvest their own units for upkeep. Slately is begging his friends for (monetary) help.

Faq's an odd one. But not because they're caring. When other Sides march to war, they do it against their neighbours, sources of fear capable of destroying everything they hold dear. When Faq marches to war, they do it against Sides that have never heard of them and with whom they have no quarrel. They're the worst.


War is war, croaking is croaking, it's how Erf works. You get popped, you croak dudes, you get croaked eventually. Unless you're a caster, in which case you have a chance for a 'lives happily ever after in the MK' ending (only after you lose your side, though!). FAQ has picked an unconventional way to stay alive, for sure, using secrecy instead of military might, which is clever, but doesn't really affect the overall character of the system.

Irrelevant. The state of the World has no impact whatsoever on Jillian's inability to stay sane after a few weeks spent without fighting. Plenty of Erfians have lived at peace for as long or longer without turning into Jillian.


Who? Casters in the MK? There's no other Erfians besides them that have ever been in a state of peace in the first place. I guess Haffatonians? But they play at being peaceful, and find ways to win by not fighting, but they're still expansionist just like every other side. Olive Branch might player her chillaxe an offer chocolate, but croaks Tommy all the same.

Disliking war, does not require disliking the people who fight them for you, anymore than it prevents you from disliking other things more than you dislike war.


Why would it make sense for an Erf Warlord dislike War? Why would you ever expect that of one? I mean, I suppose some weird ones would, but I suspect it wouldn't be the norm. Why should you expect Jillian to? War is as inevitable and as natural to Erf as Gravity is here. Combat is literally part of the rules of the world.

Being someone whose job it is to fight in war, does not require you to be a Jillian.


It's not a job! It's her very essence! She can no more stop being a Warlord than one of us can decide to be a cat instead of a human. (Except by, I guess, upgrading to a Queen? I suspect that a Thinkamancer could probably do something about it too?)

Remember that update with Wrigley the Spearman? How the only thing he wanted in life was to stab things, because he was a Stabber? Same thing. I'll quote it here:

First Intermission 34 wrote:... Wrigley was a Spearman. He was never without his spear. It had popped with him. But they took it away from him. Somehow, that was all he could think about. That, and how he'd never stabbed anything, Not ever. Only in practice. All those turns of practice stabbing an enemy unit, and he had never stabbed one. It wasn't right.


He's about to die, and the only thing on his mind is how he never got to stab anyone. Or, read LIAB Text update 24, where he finally gets to stab someone! And get croaked, but that's okay because he's finally able to stab someone and he loves it!

Jillian is a Warlord and thus wants to fight the same way that Wrigley is a Stabber and thus wants to Stab enemies.

And speaking of Jillian, she was created to re-establish her Side if/when the worst happened. She didn't care about that purpose when the time came and had to be pressured into doing it.


Well, that's what Banhammer wanted her to do. When I said "it's what she was created for", I didn't just mean Banhammer's intent, I meant the Titans, I meant Erf itself. She was popped as a Warlord; her purpose in life is to lead units and to croak other units. There's no reason to be ashamed of that. A lion isn't ashamed of being a carnivore.

Wrigley may have been popped as a stabber to stand guard duty and never encounter an enemy, but that doesn't mean that he'd be happy about that or have any particular enthusiasm for guard duty as opposed to stabbing. Same with Jillian.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby MonteCristo » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:38 pm

Whispri wrote:
That's not true though, is it? There are no end of peaceful ways for a Unit to support itself. Hunting, fishing, farming, mining, selling Scrolls or plundering Ruins to name but a few. And plenty of non-Capital Sides will manage the same (d'you think Janis ever fights for money?). Even Capital Sides, look at Future Era Gobwin Knob, they'll be swimming in money, fighting only in self defence or for their cause. Future Era Jetstone will manage to maintain a large army without a treasury.

Faq's an odd one. But not because they're caring. When other Sides march to war, they do it against their neighbours, sources of fear capable of destroying everything they hold dear. When Faq marches to war, they do it against Sides that have never heard of them and with whom they have no quarrel. They're the worst.

Irrelevant. The state of the World has no impact whatsoever on Jillian's inability to stay sane after a few weeks spent without fighting. Plenty of Erfians have lived at peace for as long or longer without turning into Jillian.

Unless Jillian's murderous expeditions were launched without his knowledge, which is of course impossible, he can't be the man Jillian claims he is. Fact is, his system worked. His Kingdom fell because Wanda chose to break that system and reveal Faq to the outside World.

Disliking war, does not require disliking the people who fight them for you, anymore than it prevents you from disliking other things more than you dislike war. Being someone whose job it is to fight in war, does not require you to be a Jillian. And speaking of Jillian, she was created to re-establish her Side if/when the worst happened. She didn't care about that purpose when the time came and had to be pressured into doing it.


I think your only half-right...
Can a side exist without fighting? Maybe yes... but can the survive long in the world of erfworld without fighting? probably not. One thing that is broken about your analogy to how non-capitol sides and magic kingdom locals survive is the simple fact that they are not as large as sides and are not a constant target of other sides in erfworld. Those non-capitol sides and so forth could be easily wiped out if any side chose to take the time to wipe them out; but they are usually unimportant and thus stay off the radar; as such they can remain so small that they can survive off the land alone... But Faq, as a capitol-side IS a target for other sides because their cities are very valuable... can you name an example of any CAPITOL-SIDE that managed to survive without fighting? ftl, already dismissed your points about jetstone(which engages in wars often) and GK (which also engages in war and has an arkentool the eliminates the normal requirements to have a standing army). the ONLY way a side could survive without engaging in war is if all the sides in erfworld were to become one side, or if all of the sides managed to enter into a permanent Alliance... only then would the threats of other sides end so that the various sides would no longer need to maintain the upkeep for armies (though millions of units would disband because of the lack of upkeep before the ever lasting peace set it)

Faq may protect itself through illusions but most likely even banhammer understands that he needs to be prepared for the worst and thus have a sizable defense set up. Hell one thing we also don't know is how many casters they were supporting as Stanely once said they had a lot and had some heavy magic defenses. We also don't know how good the local resources around faq are... Basically, Without Jillian going out into the field to make smuckers and boost the treasury, the side might not be making enough money on its own to support much of its protection... and without that protection, Faq might fall if their casters were to ever screw up and side were to get discovered. And this is taking into account that Banhammer received a prediction that said his side WOULD fall, which would urge him to beef up his treasury to protect his kingdom from the foretold future threat to his kingdom

Fact is, Faq fights those distant sides for the same reason other sides fight with their neighbors; because they fear their neighbors... And one thing we have to take into account is which costs more lives; Jillian's band of mercenaries, or the sides that engage in constant war with their neighbors? When it comes down to it, Faq is trying to minimalize the casualties they need to commit to survive in the chaotic war world of erfworld, while ever other side just tries to devour each other for one reason or another.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Balerion » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:24 pm

Whispri, we all get that you hate Jillian, and I have nothing wrong with that viewpoint (though I disagree with it). But when you continue again and again to say her "lifestyle" is supported by the capital, and try to portray her as a drain on resources, all you do is reveal that you hate her so much you can't actually understand the situation.

1) Jillian's entire purpose in the economy of FAQ is to bring in additional money to make up for their missing upkeep.
2) If Jillian's war band costs more than it brings in, it does not diminish upkeep. there is in fact no purpose for the warband at that time.
a)It actually has to be more than barely profitable as well; due to the time it takes to find mercenary work + time spent working the job, we have to assume that the band makes relatively large profit margins in order to last through dry spells. How big that profit margin has to be depends on lots of factors we don't have access to
3) The warband exists.
4) The only possible conclusion is that Jillian is a net gain, or that Banhammer is a complete imbecile who doesn't understand basic algebra (and really more like subtraction).

I would argue a major one as well; you don't risk the discovery of your side for the upkeep that would let you keep around an extra 10 men. All of the evidence points to Jillian being a key, vital role in FAQ's economy, and the longer you fight that, the harder it is to take your opinion on the matter as resembling the actual situation.

Rob has hammered the point home that constant fighting is necessary for survival in Erf. I am sorry you disagree with this basic premise of the comic, but the other ways of supporting yourself are insufficient to maintain a side. My evidence for that? Even in the utopia bubble kingdom, it can't be done. Inhabitants of the world laugh at the idea (see Ansom listening to Jillian's story).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:22 pm

Whispri wrote:Citation? Read this update, the whole bit about war and evil.


I did. I don't agree with your conclusion. Cite and prove.

See also Sizemore's frequent moping


See his "BS rationalization." He has dealt with the issue.

[/quote]Beyond that, Courtiers are far cheaper to maintain than Warlords, they will always be better suited to peaceful tasks, even assuming no class bonuses related to them.[/quote]

Citation needed.

As for Jillian being highish level, that just makes her an exceptionally expensive drain on the treasury, her out of hex bonus will be tiny or non-existent, if it even applies outside of fighting.


Level 7 in Episode 28, and word of the Titans confirmed that provides a +7 bonus. +4 bonus to her side. 1/2 a full stack bonus. Not tiny.

Jillian turns a profit. Proven by her existence after FAQ's fall. If you were right, she would have upkeeped herself to destruction before Book 1.

The only Units at Faq that/who might be considered layabouts are the Garrison Units.


They all are. No description of selling scrolls or other services. Foolamancer, Lookamancer, Predictamancer cannot create units, nor affect upkeep.

Oh and Jillian's beloved lifestyle will be much harder to maintain without the backing of a Capital Side. A Capital Side that Jillian is only partly responsible for funding, even before her Warband's Upkeep is considered.


Jillian's warband turns a profit. If it did not, she would not have survived FAQ's fall through to Book 1.

I'm faulting Jillian for being a villainous malefactor


She is doing as ordered, according to her Duty, Obedience, and Loyalty, and she abides by what passes for the Rules of War in Erfworld. It is not criminal, because there is no LAW that makes her actions illegal. She is not, by any standard of the definition, a "malefactor".

Further, on Earth, there is NO Rule of War against Mercenaries. So long as they abide by the Geneva Convention and the Rules of War, they are afforded Prisoner of War status when captured. That they are fighting for more money than a soldier in a nation's Army is not a consideration for their morality. So, no, not even by Earthly standards is Jillian a "malefactor". She is a Legal Combatant, by current US milspeak.

and for spitting on people whose strength isn't in their sword arms.


What strength? In a world where work is nonexistent and useless without the right Special, what "strength" could they possibly have? They sit around meditating and philosophizing. That really worked out well for Athens, didn't it? It wasn't Athens' armies that saved them from the Spartans and Persians... no, it was their philosophers that turned the Persians away at Marathon...

Her survival, while a blight on Erf, has nothing to do with that.


She's a merc. She fights for money. She doesn't start wars or strip neighbouring cities, like Transylvito. She doesn't annihilate Sides for the completely prejudicial reason that they are ruled by non-Royals. She hires out her sword arm to people at war. Haffaton wants to make use of her, after all. Did she ask them to start a war so she could have a job, or did Haffaton offer her a contract flat out? Latter, of course.

No, I think FAQ is the odd one out here, for being ashamed of the way the Titans made them. It makes no more sense for a unit to be ashamed of making money through war than for a lion to be ashamed of eating meat.


That puts the entire lie to your claim that FAQ supports Jillian. For this to be a "necessary evil" to be ashamed of, then the Courtiers must accept that Jillian is supporting them. If FAQ kept Jillian alive, then they would have nothing to be ashamed of, personally.

You can't have it both ways. Either Jillian is keeping the layabouts in FAQ alive through her profits and the layabouts need to be ashamed of her revenue keeping them alive, or they support her and have nothing to be ashamed of.

(BTW, I am not accepting that the Courtiers feel ashamed, only that you can only believe them to be ashamed in that case. In fact, they rationalize Jillian as a "necessary evil" and don't feel ashamed at all. People that are ashamed don't call things a "necessary evil." I'm never ashamed of having to do what's necessary to stay alive. You can take on that anxiety if you want to, but no thanks.)

No, it's the fault of the way that THEIR WHOLE BOOPIN WORLD works, that it's impossible or almost impossible to live at peace.


But you blame Jillian for it? That's totally prejudicial. The wars go on without her, so she's no more responsible for the fighting than I am.

I'm entirely sympathetic to Jillian's view that Banhammer is the one being the lunatic that can't seem to accept that fighting and war is what Erf is made for.


I haven't got a clue what you're trying to say in the last half of that sentence. Totally obfuscated.

Eh, it seems like sort of a weak distinction. Remember, people here don't *choose* their profession. They're popped for it. Jillian was created, knowing that her purpose in life was to croak enemies. And she was popped into a court that spent the whole time telling her that her very nature, what she was created to do, is evil.


And they died, but she lived. In the end, they were wrong, and she was right. It takes two to Tango, but only one to make War. The Side that chooses peace when the other chooses war is annihilated and the choice made moot.

That's not true though, is it? There are no end of peaceful ways for a Unit to support itself. Hunting, fishing, farming, mining,


Only works 100% for Natural Allies. Jillian made it clear in the Summer Updates that Units cannot reduce Upkeep to 0, so farming and fishing cannot support the entire upkeep of one unit. (Though there may be units with those as specials, like twolls fabrication, that allow specific types of Units to generate more than their own upkeep.) Mining for crystals is limited by location, but potentially very profitable, but only for tunneling units, and those sources dry up so only lasts for a limited time. Not every Unit can use every one of those options to reduce its upkeep, and even then, nothing reduces it to 0.

selling Scrolls


Not possible. Barbarian casters in the MK can undercut them and take that market, because they do nto have to generate the extra income to support other units. Fundamentally limited by supply and demand, and we do not know that there is a significant enough demand to generate income. We see some scrolls being made, but we only see scrolls sold by the MK.

or plundering Ruins


Requires conflict. Gotta kill the barbarians guarding the treasure.

And no, in the end, it's not enough. That is abundantly clear all through the text, in many places. Parson's efforts to figure out how to break the money system, for instance. Generating revenue is HARD and gets HARDER beyond a certain number of City Levels. You're trivializing it without knowing the details on the rules, when we know with absolute certainty these are only aids, not solutions.

And plenty of non-Capital Sides will manage the same (d'you think Janis ever fights for money?). Even Capital Sides, look at Future Era Gobwin Knob, they'll be swimming in money, fighting only in self defence or for their cause. Future Era Jetstone will manage to maintain a large army without a treasury.


GK has a massive treasury because:

1) Sizemore mined out the mountain.
2) When their living forces died, and GK lost all their cities, they had low upkeep and high income. In short, they had a large treasury because they couldn't spend it because they were being destroyed.

GK is not an example of a Side in stready-state support of itself.

Faq's an odd one. But not because they're caring.


At no time do they demonstrate caring. Buddhism is not a caring religion. It is a balanced religion, where it accepts both good and evil in equal measure as unavoidable. Banhammer does not help those in need, nor does he instruct Jillian how to select employers. Jillian chooses to fight to defend the weak wherever possible. Bh cares only about FAQ. Jillian chooses to fight for the underdog, and save the weak. Jillian is the one that cares for and protects the weak. Bh cares only about staying hidden and talking philosophy, which is fundamentally isolationist and by rejecting the world, demonstrates a lack of caring for it.

When other Sides march to war, they do it against their neighbours, sources of fear capable of destroying everything they hold dear.


Not according to what I've seen. Transylvito extorts from Carpool and other neighbours. Transylvito is the Side to fear. But even then, you're assigning one motive to all wars. There is no evidence that everyone fights because it fears a neighbour. The Side that is attacked in that case is fighting in self-defense. Are they evil for fighting back?

When Faq marches to war,


Mercenaries fight, but their Side does not "march to war." It's a term that requires the entire Side to gear for war, not a small expeditionary force.

they do it against Sides that have never heard of them and with whom they have no quarrel. They're the worst.


I reject that wholesale. You are applying Earthworld standards to Earfworlders that have no such concept. Mercenaries are accepted as a profession, and never vilified by anyone in the comic.

And it doesn't even jive with Earthworld standards. Mercenaries are not prohibited by any Treaties, and though unused by Western societies, are not considered vile or criminal if they abide by the Rules of War and Geneva Conventions.

Irrelevant. The state of the World has no impact whatsoever on Jillian's inability to stay sane after a few weeks spent without fighting. Plenty of Erfians have lived at peace for as long or longer without turning into Jillian.


Jillian isn't insane. She's bloodthirsty, like many others in Erfworld. And no one said she "turned into" Jillian. She was born Jillian.

Unless Jillian's murderous


Mercenary work is not by any definition "murder". Jillian does not kill off the battlefield. Killing on the battlefield does NOT fit the definition of murder, so long as it fits within the Rules of War, and Jillina is never shown violating that, even by our standards.

he can't be the man Jillian claims he is. Fact is, his system worked. His Kingdom fell because Wanda chose to break that system and reveal Faq to the outside World.


No one is the "man someone claims they are". No one sees all sides of an individual, and so you are always wrong when you judge someone.

Disliking war, does not require disliking the people who fight them for you, anymore than it prevents you from disliking other things more than you dislike war. Being someone whose job it is to fight in war, does not require you to be a Jillian. And speaking of Jillian, she was created to re-establish her Side if/when the worst happened. She didn't care about that purpose when the time came and had to be pressured into doing it.


No one is "required" to be anything, outside a law abiding citizen on Earth. But on Erf, things are different. There is Duty, Obedience, and Loyalty, which require you to be one thing or another, against your will.

But Jillian is not viewed as an aberrant personality type inside the context of Erfworld. In fact, she becomes the object of desire, not fear, of one of the most powerful Warlords around (more than one Warlord, actually). Jillian is viewed as uncouth, NOT insane. Her bloodthirstiness is NOT viewed as something to Fear, but a tool to use. Her presence is DESIRED, not avoided as an insane individual would be. It is firmly controlled off the battlefield, and so is NOT insanity, which would force her to action regardless of environment. Jillian's bloodthirstiness is a tool she controls and uses.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Keighvin1 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:05 am

Kreistor, put the reins on man, you are attacking two different people, one of whom seems to agree with you.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Lamech » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:05 am

Kreistor wrote:
Everyone on Erfworld survives in this way. It's favoritism to fault Jillian for what is, essentially, a mandatory character trait for long term survival in that world. Please review Caesar's description of why Transylvito extorts and pillages its neighbours. Income is a problem for every side, so faulting Jillian for what everyone else is doing is simple prejudice.

Not actually true. For example: The magic kingdom. Natural sides can survive in the wild without cities even.


Except that people in Erfworld that can cleave others in half actually ARE better than other people. Arrogance is the false belief in superiority. With combat raising her level while Level 1 courtiers meditate, Jillian literally is better at everything important than layabouts. She isn't arrogant... she is literally better than them, by Erfworld's standards.
Of course you can train to level up. And Rob has hinted that using your specials will get xp as well. Sure fighting might be a quicker way, but its not the only way. Its very possible that three courtiers spend time training, and are higher than level 1. Also note that it only takes 600ish turns to get a level even as high as 7. If someone spends a few thousand turns training... They could very well be higher than Jillian.
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