Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:09 am

Karadan wrote:Nothing says they have to pop more units, so there is no reason for their upkeep to rise. If a their side was truly sustainable, it would be just that. Jillian going out and doing merc work shows that FAQ isn't sustainable without war.


I'm pretty sure that nothing I said denied any of that. The fact is that it is somehow unsustainable, and we have no Rule that tells us why it is unsustainable.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
User avatar
Kreistor
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:59 pm
Location: K-W, Ontario, Canada

Re: casters working together

Postby onlyme » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:46 am

ftl wrote:
onlyme wrote:I wonder how those two casters work together.


Well, there IS a potential very simple answer to this, that doesn't involve fancy magical working-together, just simple ordinary working together.

A lookamancer can answer the question of "Where are the enemy units". This lets the incoming party not run into any enemy units while taking their turn heading back to FAQ.
A predictamancer can answer the question of "Where WILL those enemy units go". This lets the incoming party end turn in a hex that won't be traveled by enemy units during the next turn.


If the predictamancer can make predictions like "will there be a enemy unit in this hex in the next turn", then the predictamancer would just also have made that last turn to know where they are now. (And if there is nothing else to do, what is a better use for a predictamancer than predicting if any enemies will come near?).

What good would a lookamancer be if a predictamancer is just as good but you only results even earlier?

Perhaps it is the predictamancer predicting what the lookamancer will see next turn?

But there is still the problem that we were told predictamancers can only see fated events in the longer future and only see ordinary things ("will this hit?") on a much shorter time frame. But perhaps it's just that old "cannot see things still in the flow" and the movement of an enemy unit can be seen as long as it does not depend on your actions. (And avoiding to get near them makes sure their decisions are not influenced by your decisions).
onlyme
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:32 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby drachefly » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:54 am

Maybe asking a more qualified question costs less juice?

"Will a unit from a side other than ours be here next turn?" vs "Will these units be here next turn?"
User avatar
drachefly
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:36 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby onlyme » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:07 am

MonteCristo wrote:3-4 casters seems to be the norm for sides that we have gotten details about...
Both Jetstone and Unaroryal had 4 casters;

Jetstone was quite big and they even took over another side's capital, might get
some casters, too.

MonteCristo wrote:Goodmitten had 3 casters of their own


And where quite surprised to get the third.

MonteCristo wrote:and if we assume that Faq was the only place that Gobwinknob got captured casters, then they two would have had 3 casters.


For a not so small side under a king with a IV in the name.

MonteCristo wrote:Transylvito has 2 casters, but only that we know of... I've suspected they have a dollamancer as well based on Ace Hardware's comments and the presence of Dolls, Molls and Scarecrows; units that are products of dollamancy.


So 3 for the oldest side we currently know.

MonteCristo wrote:Also the number of cities has no bearing on how many a casters are popped... Casters are popped randomly whenever you pop a warlord and it is said that the chances of popping a caster is up to fate.


Well, it's not totally random. IIRC you usually get two quite early and after that it is hard.
Also the number of warlords you can pop depends on your size and how often you produce warlords.

Given that Transilvito seems to pop many warlords (at least I'd so if I could create warlords that can tame bats almost as strong as infantry), we would expect more casters there. Jetstone prefering infrantry and warlords looks like having a good chance to get casters. How GK got three when usually upgrading normal units to warlods I have no idea (perhaps more of them are collected from other sides).

I guess another point beyond size is age. If you collect your casters, you'll finally get a full set even without having the resources to pop warlords in large quantities. Perhaps Stanley assumed such a small side must be very new thus assuming to find only one or two casters there.

Also note that I do not assume FAQ had only 4. Just that 4 is already quite a bit, so that with a bit of Stanleyesque hyperbole that would already be able to explain the "a whole lot of casters".
onlyme
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:32 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby onlyme » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:13 am

drachefly wrote:Maybe asking a more qualified question costs less juice?

"Will a unit from a side other than ours be here next turn?" vs "Will these units be here next turn?"


Perhaps. Though Jillian is able to come from the edge of where the lookamancer can look at to the center in two turns. That means units with as many moves at that can reach at least 3/4 of that area in one turn. So unless there are usually some units in that area, it looks like the predictamancer would do most of the work there.
onlyme
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:32 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Karadan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:50 pm

drachefly wrote:Maybe asking a more qualified question costs less juice?

"Will a unit from a side other than ours be here next turn?" vs "Will these units be here next turn?"


Yeah. The lookamancer burns their juice to figure out where the enemy is now, then they use basic tactics to figure out where it is possible for the enemy to be, and then the predictamancer predicts on individual hexes "Will an enemy be in this hex next turn." Such small area and specific predictions likely cost very little juice, allowing her to go through multiple potential paths if required, as well as take care of her "Will anyone buzz our cities" duties.
Karadan
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:43 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby nth » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:07 pm

drachefly wrote:Maybe asking a more qualified question costs less juice?

"Will a unit from a side other than ours be here next turn?" vs "Will these units be here next turn?"


Or the predictamancer uses a variant of the tower-targeting strategy, but with troop movements:
"Given that we're not going to send troops along any route that's going to get them seen, will our lookamancer tell us this route is clear, tomorrow?"
nth
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:43 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Sieggy » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:18 pm

To go from the 'Predictamancer as a tactical unit' to 'Predictmancer as plot device', I think it's very likely that Jillian is being recalled because of some prediction by Marie (now that her name has been invoked, she's a plot element) that involves Wanda and the threat of Haffaton. As Marie is one of the prime movers of the story arc (at least behind the scenes), it's time she stepped onto the stage.
The Truth Will Set You Free. But First It Will Piss You Off.
User avatar
Sieggy
 
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:35 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby CNagy » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:05 am

Karadan wrote:
drachefly wrote:Maybe asking a more qualified question costs less juice?

"Will a unit from a side other than ours be here next turn?" vs "Will these units be here next turn?"


Yeah. The lookamancer burns their juice to figure out where the enemy is now, then they use basic tactics to figure out where it is possible for the enemy to be, and then the predictamancer predicts on individual hexes "Will an enemy be in this hex next turn." Such small area and specific predictions likely cost very little juice, allowing her to go through multiple potential paths if required, as well as take care of her "Will anyone buzz our cities" duties.


Actually, I see that as being kind of the backwards approach. Instead of finding out where the enemy is, you are plotting a route through where the enemy isn't and won't be. So the Lookamancer first looks at the furthest out hex that the traveling party can make with their move. If there are no enemies in that hex, the Predictamancer determines whether or not any enemies will move through that hex before FAQ's next turn. If the conditions turn up "empty" and "no," then that's where the traveling units go. If either is yes, they pick a different hex and repeat. As you get further from the city, it may become necessary to have the Lookamancer scout each hex of movement out.
CNagy
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:26 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Karadan » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:45 pm

CNagy wrote:
Karadan wrote:
drachefly wrote:Maybe asking a more qualified question costs less juice?

"Will a unit from a side other than ours be here next turn?" vs "Will these units be here next turn?"


Yeah. The lookamancer burns their juice to figure out where the enemy is now, then they use basic tactics to figure out where it is possible for the enemy to be, and then the predictamancer predicts on individual hexes "Will an enemy be in this hex next turn." Such small area and specific predictions likely cost very little juice, allowing her to go through multiple potential paths if required, as well as take care of her "Will anyone buzz our cities" duties.


Actually, I see that as being kind of the backwards approach. Instead of finding out where the enemy is, you are plotting a route through where the enemy isn't and won't be. So the Lookamancer first looks at the furthest out hex that the traveling party can make with their move. If there are no enemies in that hex, the Predictamancer determines whether or not any enemies will move through that hex before FAQ's next turn. If the conditions turn up "empty" and "no," then that's where the traveling units go. If either is yes, they pick a different hex and repeat. As you get further from the city, it may become necessary to have the Lookamancer scout each hex of movement out.


Well, that's basically the approach I was using on the predictamancer side, but the thing is you need them to scout the entire path, not just the ending hexes. Otherwise you could easily walk into an enemy hex on your turn by mistake. You are right though, the lookamancer may very well just go one hex at a time to see if there are enemies along the way. The main reason I suggested the large search for the lookamancer is because he will need to use less juice. He would only have to scout one turns worth of movement, while the predictamancer would have to 'scout' multiple turns worth of movement. If he scouted a significantly larger area, they could save some juice on the predictamancer by knowing some hexes are safe by virtue of nothing being in range of them.

I'd imagine there are a few ways they could go about it, depending on how high level each of them are.
Karadan
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:43 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby CNagy » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:57 pm

Karadan wrote:
CNagy wrote:Well, that's basically the approach I was using on the predictamancer side, but the thing is you need them to scout the entire path, not just the ending hexes. Otherwise you could easily walk into an enemy hex on your turn by mistake. You are right though, the lookamancer may very well just go one hex at a time to see if there are enemies along the way. The main reason I suggested the large search for the lookamancer is because he will need to use less juice. He would only have to scout one turns worth of movement, while the predictamancer would have to 'scout' multiple turns worth of movement. If he scouted a significantly larger area, they could save some juice on the predictamancer by knowing some hexes are safe by virtue of nothing being in range of them.

I'd imagine there are a few ways they could go about it, depending on how high level each of them are.


It's possible, but one thing the Lookamancer can't cover is high-move enemy targets that start outside his effective scrying range. If it were just a matter of getting units through possibly hostile territory undetected, then that could be considered a low-probability acceptable risk. But with trying to keep their entire side undetected, they probably have to rely more on the Predictamancer. And without knowing the specifics of the specificity required of Predictamancy questions, it could be that determining the safety of the path could come down to "Will this group encounter enemies along this route?"
CNagy
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:26 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Karadan » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:00 pm

Well, the lookamancer is involved somehow, or there wouldn't be mention of the combo being so powerful. Perhaps there is some way of making combined spells without the use of a thinkamancer link?

Oh, or maybe the predictamancer predicts if the lookamancer would find anything if they look in a particular hex next turn. The lookamancer doesn't actually have to look there, but they require the lookamancer on their side to make it a possibility for the prediction to even occur. This would be similar to how Goodmittion's predictamancer determined if an attack would be a hit or not, but didn't have to make the actual attack if it wouldn't hit.
Karadan
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:43 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Mathamancer » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:14 am

Lookamancy may well have several advantages over Predictamancy
-It can deal with specifics. Not only do you know that "enemy units are there", but you can assess how many units and of what type in order to optimize your attack or defense against them.
-Predictamancy may have an effect of setting events in stone, including inadvertently negative ones. Lookamancy does not introduce potential violations of "free will" and leaves an opportunity to adapt to bad news.
-Lookamancy likely has a far superior range capability (Let's spy on the enemy capital every turn/let's reveal all units belonging to this side on the map; Predictamancy seems limited to making predictions about your own units or enemy units you can currently perceive)
-Linking Lookamancy with Predictamancy could potentially produce omniscience - knowing everything about anything, anywhere.
Mathamancer
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:08 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Whispri » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:03 pm

With regards to why Wanda was kept at Faq rather than sent abroad, well Jillian would have a reason to like going home with Wanda there to welcome her with open limbs. That's got to be worth a few less blazing rows.

ftl wrote:Well, it seems she survives quite fine without a capital side behind her for quite a while - from after FAQs fall until when she gets her own side. Mostly by doing exactly what she wants - hiring out to sides and fighting.

Fair enough. I'll rephrase what I said - not every unit, but war is how every capital side we've ever seen sustains itself. That, I think, is correct? Transylvito has it's endless war with Carpool, GK is a permanent aggressor everywhere, FAQ relies on a far-off mercenary to keep their 'peaceful' side going, Jetstone has always sent off its heirs to fight, Goodminton was permanently at war with its neighbors, Haffaton has grand plans for absorbing everyone around them, it seems.

Who? Casters in the MK? There's no other Erfians besides them that have ever been in a state of peace in the first place. I guess Haffatonians? But they play at being peaceful, and find ways to win by not fighting, but they're still expansionist just like every other side. Olive Branch might player her chillaxe an offer chocolate, but croaks Tommy all the same.

Well, that's what Banhammer wanted her to do. When I said "it's what she was created for", I didn't just mean Banhammer's intent, I meant the Titans, I meant Erf itself. She was popped as a Warlord; her purpose in life is to lead units and to croak other units. There's no reason to be ashamed of that. A lion isn't ashamed of being a carnivore.

Wrigley may have been popped as a stabber to stand guard duty and never encounter an enemy, but that doesn't mean that he'd be happy about that or have any particular enthusiasm for guard duty as opposed to stabbing. Same with Jillian.

She survives. But with a greatly reduced warband, no other riders and about half as many heavies. Much easier with a Capital backing her up.

It is not. Gobwin Knob has mined enough Gems for Wanda to go skinny dipping in them were she so inclined. They are not waging war for the sake of earning currency. Jetstone has so many farms that even after losing some to Gobwin Knobs advance, they can still maintain more Casters than some Side's have Warlords, a huge field army, two Princes and scores of heavies with no money in the kitty. Being flat broke is merely causing them hardship. Hardly the catastrophe it should be according to the 'War is the only source of income' crowd.

Every Ruler of a Capital Side we've seen with the exception of the varlotess in question for a start. Then there are the Garrison Units. Casters, yes. Courtiers. Warlords. Translyvyto's system couldn't have worked if their Warlords hated the idea of retiring from the frontlines. Oh sure, they may still have to fight and some of them may even desire to. But falling into lunacy after a few turns of quiet as Jillian does? Not so much.

'The Devil made her do it' isn't much of a defence. Never mind that her soul is her own. Her actions, her own choice.

Spearman Wrigley may well haved been happy to fight and die, but all those turns he spent guarding peaceful Cities didn't reduce him to Jillianesesque madness.

MonteCristo wrote:I think your only half-right...
Can a side exist without fighting? Maybe yes... but can the survive long in the world of erfworld without fighting? probably not. One thing that is broken about your analogy to how non-capitol sides and magic kingdom locals survive is the simple fact that they are not as large as sides and are not a constant target of other sides in erfworld. Those non-capitol sides and so forth could be easily wiped out if any side chose to take the time to wipe them out; but they are usually unimportant and thus stay off the radar; as such they can remain so small that they can survive off the land alone... But Faq, as a capitol-side IS a target for other sides because their cities are very valuable... can you name an example of any CAPITOL-SIDE that managed to survive without fighting? ftl, already dismissed your points about jetstone(which engages in wars often) and GK (which also engages in war and has an arkentool the eliminates the normal requirements to have a standing army). the ONLY way a side could survive without engaging in war is if all the sides in erfworld were to become one side, or if all of the sides managed to enter into a permanent Alliance... only then would the threats of other sides end so that the various sides would no longer need to maintain the upkeep for armies (though millions of units would disband because of the lack of upkeep before the ever lasting peace set it)

Faq may protect itself through illusions but most likely even banhammer understands that he needs to be prepared for the worst and thus have a sizable defense set up. Hell one thing we also don't know is how many casters they were supporting as Stanely once said they had a lot and had some heavy magic defenses. We also don't know how good the local resources around faq are... Basically, Without Jillian going out into the field to make smuckers and boost the treasury, the side might not be making enough money on its own to support much of its protection... and without that protection, Faq might fall if their casters were to ever screw up and side were to get discovered. And this is taking into account that Banhammer received a prediction that said his side WOULD fall, which would urge him to beef up his treasury to protect his kingdom from the foretold future threat to his kingdom

Fact is, Faq fights those distant sides for the same reason other sides fight with their neighbors; because they fear their neighbors... And one thing we have to take into account is which costs more lives; Jillian's band of mercenaries, or the sides that engage in constant war with their neighbors? When it comes down to it, Faq is trying to minimalize the casualties they need to commit to survive in the chaotic war world of erfworld, while ever other side just tries to devour each other for one reason or another.

As I noted above, the thing about Gobwin Knob's Future Era status you're ignoring is the immense sums they've gained through mining. Yes that money will run out eventually, but they aren't fighting for money. Jetstone is actually fighting on without money. Non-Capital Sides are still Sides and Stanley apparantly went after the Elves, so...

Faq does fall upon discovery. Instantly. Those defences are worth less than the Maginot Line.

The cheap way in terms of lives? Knocking over those tiny Sides she likes to prop up would work wonders there. She instead, chooses to prolong the agony. She stated that she she normally raised funds by gaining bounties per kill, which is why I likened her actions to Vampirism. The sources of fear you speak of? Most Sides fight them directly, because of the fear. Faq launches raids against Side's that have never heard of them before and pose them no threat.

Balerion wrote:1) Jillian's entire purpose in the economy of FAQ is to bring in additional money to make up for their missing upkeep.
2) If Jillian's war band costs more than it brings in, it does not diminish upkeep. there is in fact no purpose for the warband at that time.
a)It actually has to be more than barely profitable as well; due to the time it takes to find mercenary work + time spent working the job, we have to assume that the band makes relatively large profit margins in order to last through dry spells. How big that profit margin has to be depends on lots of factors we don't have access to
3) The warband exists.
4) The only possible conclusion is that Jillian is a net gain, or that Banhammer is a complete imbecile who doesn't understand basic algebra (and really more like subtraction).

I would argue a major one as well; you don't risk the discovery of your side for the upkeep that would let you keep around an extra 10 men. All of the evidence points to Jillian being a key, vital role in FAQ's economy, and the longer you fight that, the harder it is to take your opinion on the matter as resembling the actual situation.

Rob has hammered the point home that constant fighting is necessary for survival in Erf. I am sorry you disagree with this basic premise of the comic, but the other ways of supporting yourself are insufficient to maintain a side. My evidence for that? Even in the utopia bubble kingdom, it can't be done. Inhabitants of the world laugh at the idea (see Ansom listening to Jillian's story).

All Jillian's warband has to do is bring in enough currency over a given period of time to put Faq's income into the Black during that period. That could easily be less than the war party's upkeep during said period, for why should Faq's total upkeep exceed the income gained from their Cities, farms and so on by more than Jillian's little band costs to maintain? It as after all, a strong force of flying heavies with multiple Warlords.

The evidence in question consists entirely of Jillian's high opinion of herself. Not exactly compelling I must say.

Fighting is a constant in Erfworld, yes. Many Sides must do battle or be eradicated. But if every single one of them depended on war spoils to pay their upkeep, the money would simply run out.

Kreistor wrote:I did. I don't agree with your conclusion. Cite and prove.

Why? So you can say 'That doesn't count, prove it!' again? Not much left forme to say that I haven't already said really, 'cept that the only thing that saved the Athenians from the Spartans in the end was Spartan mercy.
Whispri
YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 9:02 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Lamech » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:33 pm

Whispri wrote:All Jillian's warband has to do is bring in enough currency over a given period of time to put Faq's income into the Black during that period. That could easily be less than the war party's upkeep during said period, for why should Faq's total upkeep exceed the income gained from their Cities, farms and so on by more than Jillian's little band costs to maintain? It as after all, a strong force of flying heavies with multiple Warlords.

There is no possible way they can't get hired for at least there upkeep. If someone offered you units at only upkeep price that is effectively getting free units; that is an inanely good deal. In addition you spend a good amount of upkeep on units just sitting around guarding or the like. In other words (at least when fighting) the warband will easily bring in money in excess of there upkeep. So assuming that the units don't sit around any more than average, they should at least bring in there upkeep. Then add in the fact that you deny your opponent units (they can't hire Jillian) and desperate sides... Jillian makes plenty.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Balerion » Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:57 am

Whispri wrote:All Jillian's warband has to do is bring in enough currency over a given period of time to put Faq's income into the Black during that period. That could easily be less than the war party's upkeep during said period, for why should Faq's total upkeep exceed the income gained from their Cities, farms and so on by more than Jillian's little band costs to maintain? It as after all, a strong force of flying heavies with multiple Warlords.

The evidence in question consists entirely of Jillian's high opinion of herself. Not exactly compelling I must say.

Fighting is a constant in Erfworld, yes. Many Sides must do battle or be eradicated. But if every single one of them depended on war spoils to pay their upkeep, the money would simply run out.


There is no purpose to the war party unless they make money, as my post demonstrated (and you didn't argue against either, beyond saying "no, it doesn't have to work that way"). We have heard numerous times that is why they exist. I am sorry you don't think the comic is telling us the truth, but I really see no point in bashing my head against that wall.

Now, how every side manages to keep in the black when they rely on pillaging each other for income is a much better question. The comic hasn't really shown us how this happens; it could be because we have mines etc which serve to inject additional resources into the world, and long term everyone is in trouble. Or there is bounty for killing units, or it costs less to build a city back up then you gain from razing it. I trust that Rob will reveal the numbers that make these things make sense in due time, but you are right that right now it is an unknown. But Rob has made it clear that they all need the income, and cannot survive without combat.
Balerion
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 1:12 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:27 pm

Whispri wrote:She survives. But with a greatly reduced warband, no other riders and about half as many heavies. Much easier with a Capital backing her up.


That's a question of production, not income. Barbarians do not have cities to produce units, and so will not keep up with losses as well.

It is not. Gobwin Knob has mined enough Gems for Wanda to go skinny dipping in them were she so inclined.


Grossly overstated. The one unit we have upkeep for is Archons. Their upkeep ranges from 200-500. Using the minimum, 200, 10 Archons cost 2000 per turn. Stanley had a treasury of 500000 (and the mountain was "mined out", so that's all folks), which covers that small force for only 250 turns. Charlie has SIX HUNDRED Archons, and no method to fund them except his mercenary income. That's a minimum cost of 120000 per TURN, which burns Stanley's treasury in 4 turns, ignoring that the average cost will be much higher.

They are not waging war for the sake of earning currency.


Yeah, because Jetstone, Transylvito, Unaroyal, Sofa King, Charlescomm, and Haggar (at least) declared War on GK. What's the relevance?

Jetstone has so many farms that even after losing some to Gobwin Knobs advance, they can still maintain more Casters than some Side's have Warlords, a huge field army, two Princes and scores of heavies with no money in the kitty.


So? He's begging funds from Transylvito, who is also cash strapped and forced to raid Carpool and extort their neighbours. Things are tough all over... all the time.

Being flat broke is merely causing them hardship. Hardly the catastrophe it should be according to the 'War is the only source of income' crowd.


"Disbanding" (read: the utter annihilation) of friends isn't a catastrophe? If you can't pay the upkeep, you are forced to destroy your forces. Poof, gone, dead.

Every Ruler of a Capital Side we've seen with the exception of the varlotess in question for a start. Then there are the Garrison Units. Casters, yes. Courtiers. Warlords. Translyvyto's system couldn't have worked if their Warlords hated the idea of retiring from the frontlines. Oh sure, they may still have to fight and some of them may even desire to. But falling into lunacy after a few turns of quiet as Jillian does? Not so much.


Evidence of nothing.

'The Devil made her do it' isn't much of a defence. Never mind that her soul is her own. Her actions, her own choice.


Duty. Obedience. Loyalty. No, they are NOT all her choice. In Stupidworld, someone that is forced to act in Duress, that is immediate threat of injury or death, is not guilty of a criminal act. Jillian, who can be destroyed with a thought, cannot choose to disobey orders without potentially automatic Disbanding, so is in Duress and INNOCENT of any act she does not wish to perform. That's by OUR morality and Laws.

Spearman Wrigley may well haved been happy to fight and die, but all those turns he spent guarding peaceful Cities didn't reduce him to Jillianesesque madness.


You have yet to name her insanity. Have you picked one yet?

As I noted above, the thing about Gobwin Knob's Future Era status you're ignoring is the immense sums they've gained through mining.


Not immense by Erfworld standards. Charlie's upkeep per Turn is more than 1/4 Stanley's starting treasury.

Yes that money will run out eventually, but they aren't fighting for money.


Irrelevant. GK is a small Side now with only a handful of Cities. It is still to reach the City Level cap, and so overproduces, even while its upkeep is nearly nonexistent due to Decrypted costing no upkeep.

Jetstone is actually fighting on without money. Non-Capital Sides are still Sides and Stanley apparantly went after the Elves, so...


Again, not relevant. Jetstone is in constant War, which costs units, and lowers upkeep, but still, on the knife edge of a 0 treasury, they may face Disbanding (murder) of their own units.

Faq does fall upon discovery. Instantly. Those defences are worth less than the Maginot Line.


No fighting = insignificant leveling.

The cheap way in terms of lives? Knocking over those tiny Sides she likes to prop up would work wonders there.


Prove that razing a city provides more income than the wages of mercenary work. You're Making Things Up.

She stated that she she normally raised funds by gaining bounties per kill, which is why I likened her actions to Vampirism.


That's called "Bounty Hunter". You're calling Dog Chapman a vampire, too. Since the enemy is trying to murder the people Jillian is trying to protect, you can apply the "Self Defense" Laws. It is legal to protect someone from peopel trying to murder them. Jillian is a vigilante, not a Vampire. See how easy it is to spin crud the way you do?

Faq launches raids against Side's that have never heard of them before and pose them no threat.


Not to themselves. Prove the small Sides Jillian protects started the wars. Without taht proof, Jillian is defending the weak, which is commonly known as "Heroism".

All Jillian's warband has to do is bring in enough currency over a given period of time to put Faq's income into the Black during that period. That could easily be less than the war party's upkeep during said period, for why should Faq's total upkeep exceed the income gained from their Cities, farms and so on by more than Jillian's little band costs to maintain? It as after all, a strong force of flying heavies with multiple Warlords.


Plainly false. Given Charlie's income is minimum 200 schmuckers per Archon per day, and Jillian sets her prices releative to his, by your standards, she doesn't make chump change.

The evidence in question consists entirely of Jillian's high opinion of herself. Not exactly compelling I must say.


It's not my fault you can't do math. It's there if you look for it.

But if every single one of them depended on war spoils to pay their upkeep, the money would simply run out.


False. Please review previous math on the nature of how Transylvito's extortion racket retains a profit for both Sides. It's this simple: be bigger than the Cap. Keep all neighbours small, well below the cap, and extort their small cities which make max revenue. You get more than for owning them, and the owners still get some income.

Kreistor wrote:I did. I don't agree with your conclusion. Cite and prove.


Why? So you can say 'That doesn't count, prove it!' again? Not much left forme to say that I haven't already said really, 'cept that the only thing that saved the Athenians from the Spartans in the end was Spartan mercy.


Because you Make Things Up. You presume the nature of the rules. You invent explanations, instead of waiting for Rob to clarify.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
User avatar
Kreistor
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:59 pm
Location: K-W, Ontario, Canada

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby CNagy » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:00 am

Whispri wrote:With regards to why Wanda was kept at Faq rather than sent abroad, well Jillian would have a reason to like going home with Wanda there to welcome her with open limbs. That's got to be worth a few less blazing rows.


I imagined Wanda was kept in FAQ because her time in Haffaton made her a bit infamous, and the less attention drawn to FAQ forces the better.
CNagy
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:26 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Swodaems » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:26 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Yes that money will run out eventually, but they aren't fighting for money.


Irrelevant. GK is a small Side now with only a handful of Cities. It is still to reach the City Level cap, and so overproduces, even while its upkeep is nearly nonexistent due to Decrypted costing no upkeep.


GK isn't that small anymore. I interpret this line from Parson as meaning GK is currently operating in the red or has hit the city level cap. "I mean yeah we're up against the diminishing Shmuckers point" That was said at a point where they either had 14 or 15 cities. They were adding 2-3 living dwagons per turn for about 50 turns from Parson's dwagon harvesting scheme. At the same time, they were also popping additional living units either using their cities' production or by giving schmuckers to their hobgobwin allies. In addition to the upkeep of those living units, GK also has to suck on the cost of razing and rebuilding enemy cities to change the units they produce. Sure, Sizemore brings that down alot, but he doesn't eliminate it. Point is, GK can still have money problems just like everyone else, despite decryption.

All Jillian's warband has to do is bring in enough currency over a given period of time to put Faq's income into the Black during that period. That could easily be less than the war party's upkeep during said period, for why should Faq's total upkeep exceed the income gained from their Cities, farms and so on by more than Jillian's little band costs to maintain? It as after all, a strong force of flying heavies with multiple Warlords.


Plainly false. Given Charlie's income is minimum 200 schmuckers per Archon per day, and Jillian sets her prices releative to his, by your standards, she doesn't make chump change.


Your wording implies that the mercenary income made by the Archons themselves is the source of the money Charlie uses to pay their upkeep. We know this is probably untrue. "(Charlie's thinkamancy) probably provided him more revenue than mercenary work. He was the telecom giant of Erfworld." If we assume that Charlie's current force of Archons represents the maximum he can sustain after taking into account all his sources of income*, then he would be taking a loss if he was just doing pure mercenary work**. That would explain why the Archons continually act like saleswomen during Book 1. Convincing the client to purchase additional optional services may very well be their main money making use to Charlie.

Spoiler: show
Spoiled for length
*I'm forced to admit that I do know of one, non-'this is simply how Charlie has decided to operate,' reason for the number of Archons to be less than the maximum Charlie can afford. The update I linked shows that Charlie is limited to producing a low average number of Archons per turn, somewhere between 1 and 1.5 depending on how often he hires a turnamancer. As he gradually increases the number of Archons in the field doing dangerous work, the average number of Archons lost per turn will also gradually increase. When his average losses eventually equal his average production, his total number of Archons will start to yo-yo around the number at which the equalization happens. (There are of course ways to work this limit. The best I can think of is for Charlie to ask some big side with a city that they no longer make money off of if he can buy it. Of course, considering this is Charlie, he might be avoiding this option out of the fear that a second Charlescomm city would cause backlash from sides deciding that Charlie is now a threat since a second city somehow guarantees a third in their minds.) I'm going to assume that he hasn't hit this point yet because of the implication in the update's wording that there are turns in which he does not hire a turnamancer to boost his production to the 1.5 average, a option which I feel represents his most likely go to solution for the situation.
**killing enemies, escort missions, standing around in city looking tough, non-veiled scouting, etc. Basically anything Jillian and Charlie can both do. Also includes standing/searching around trying to find work, meeting up with reinforcements, and moving from where you were prehire to where the client needs you to be. And while you might be able to charge the client for these last 3 activities, he probably won't enjoy paying for them. It does not include unpure mercenary work, things like spell security, veiling and veiled scouting, shocking leadership, the ddr spell, and anything else Archons can do in combat that Jillian cannot.


With a competitor like Charlie in the field, Jillian is at a huge disadvantage. She can't provide all the services Charlie does, so she has to make money doing work that Charlie only makes a limited amount of his gross income off of. And because there is (probably) nothing like antitrust legislation in Erfworld, Jillian has little-to-no defense against Charlie doing things like changing his pricing scheme in a manner that hurts her business. Setting her price relative to his means less money for her, not more.

While we do know that Jillian will be able to grow her force in the future, as evidenced admittedly loosely by the lack of MegaloGwiffs in the current group and their later presence in pre-fall Faq, I suspect that growth will be revealed to be the result of a short lived situation caused by the fall of Haffaton. The chaotic situation caused by the sides surrounding Haffaton all trying to take their piece of the pie, crashing into each other and shortsightedly rebalancing their troop strengths across their cities will create an ideal environment for mercenaries that Jillian will be better positioned to take advantage of than Charlie. Eventually, however, things will settle down and Faq will pay the price for any overgrowth they did.

As things stand now however, every time they need to reinforce Jillian's squad, Faq has to deal with the increasing cost and risk of traveling twice thru the territory of a side they cannot fight for. (Depending on how much risk they want, they may also be prohibited from hiring out to sides fighting against Haffaton and from hunting while within Haffaton Territory, for fear of eventually giving Haffaton enough data to figure out what is going on.)
Swodaems
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:52 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:26 pm

Yep, you're right on the facts. Swodaems. I'd forgotten all of those you quoted.

If Charlie's income is primarily Thinkamancy, then that works even worse against Whispri's position. Charlie could back off all the mercenary work, reduce to a population of more than 1/2 his current numbers, and never do any merc work at all. Yet he doesn't. FAQ could do the same... Disband any excess units they can't pay upkeep for, and just pay Jack, other casters, and a few Warlords. No one else is necessary. But Banhammer doesn't. Charlie's location is public... Banhammer's Private, and yet they both come to the same conclusions and same choices concerning mercenary work.

Is it forced by the Rules? Or does the process of conversion to a Ruler manipulate the mind of the Ruler to maximize the number of Units for the Side and demand Disbanding is the last recourse? Or do they have free will? Jillian dewscribes the physical changes she goes through, but what of the mental ones? Could pre-Ruler Jillian even possibly come up with the idea of capturing Ansom and fleeing from a great fight? If you say, "No," then the only conclusion is that the process of becoming Ruler altered her mind. What happens to culpability when mental change is forced by the environment?

Yes, Jillian has problems competing with Charlie, but, in general, there is one limiting factor for mercenaries... Sides are generally paranoid about hiring a merc force that is already fighting for the enemy. Charlie's scale is sliding, so the richer Side will be able to afford him, and pay for his Side's Archons to fight the other if the other hires Charlie, too, so for the Side that can't pay as much, that's the Side Jillian will work for. She'll make less, but not a fraction.

But as for undercutting Jillian... no, in the long run, that can't be done for two reasons. First, it lowers revenue and reduces the number of Archons Charlie can support. That rolls right into the above argument.. if it was easy to Disband Archons to not require merc work, he would, so whatever force is causing Charlie to collect large numbers of Archons is also going to be acting against lowering revenue and reducing numbers.Second, Eliminating a comeptitor only creates a void where a new competitor will appear.Keeping a weak competitor alive helps keep other competitors out of a crowded market

Anyway, gotta end there. Busy tonight.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
User avatar
Kreistor
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:59 pm
Location: K-W, Ontario, Canada

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bpzinn, enkidu, Selexor and 14 guests