Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby drachefly » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:09 am

Jillian said she did not work nearby, to avoid arousing suspicion. That would minimize her ability to profit off of the post-Haffaton chaos. Still possible, depending on Haffaton's size and the tightness of the restrictions.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Karadan » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:19 pm

So, I had a few thoughts that might explain why war is required, beyond my previous suggestions of there being some kind of special bounty on cities and units destroyed (though I still like that idea.)

Perhaps it is not that cities cannot support troops, that they do not make a significant amount of money. Perhaps it is that cities cannot not produce units. Perhaps a city is required to produce the maximum amount of units possible every single turn. And coupled with this, a ruler is bound by Duty to not simply disband popped troops, but instead seek means of supporting or using them. And so war is required to keep the population of a side down, to prevent it popping so many units that they go bankrupt and end up having to disband all their units to make ends meet, which would then in turn leave them open to an attack from someone.

Parson's 'harvest units for food' idea would then be able to solve the required popping by effectively disbanding a unit while still having it serve a purpose, as well as covering the cost of popping the unit in the first place.

This would also explain the problem FAQ was having. It couldn't simply turtle up completely, because it was forced to constantly pop units, and so would eventually implode. To alleviate this influx of units, they were sent out with Jillian to act as a mercenary force, which would allow them to die off, as well as bring in money to pay for their upkeep, and the cost of popping them in the first place.

So, just something that came to me. It's a possibility, and could explain alot, though it may not be the perfect answer. It certainly would explain why GK's cities are held by a mixture of living and decrypted units, instead of just decrypted.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Karadan wrote:It certainly would explain why GK's cities are held by a mixture of living and decrypted units, instead of just decrypted.

I agree with your assessment, but I'll point out that Stanley's mistrust of Wanda and her minions are more than sufficient to explain why he's popping units that aren't fanatically loyal to her.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Milknut » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:35 pm

Is it just me or has it been a long time since the last episode of IP(TSF)? Like, over 2 weeks? I staaaaaarve! :cry:
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Karadan » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:06 am

MarbitChow wrote:
Karadan wrote:It certainly would explain why GK's cities are held by a mixture of living and decrypted units, instead of just decrypted.

I agree with your assessment, but I'll point out that Stanley's mistrust of Wanda and her minions are more than sufficient to explain why he's popping units that aren't fanatically loyal to her.

Agreed. I thought of that too as I was posting. It is just the sort of thing Stanley would do, but there are quite a few cities throughout the comic that have been described as having various token forces and such garrisoned in them, and it seems like a big waste of upkeep shmuckers, because the forces seemed to be reasonably large, but also so small that they were inconsequential against any real force, particularly once the enemy learned about the decrypted, you'd think that they'd just give up the cities (much like unaroyal did).

P.S. Yeah, it has been a long time. I'm guessing the kickstarter project is eating up alot of time.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby onlyme » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:05 am

Karadan wrote:Perhaps it is that cities cannot not produce units. Perhaps a city is required to produce the maximum amount of units possible every single turn. And coupled with this, a ruler is bound by Duty to not simply disband popped troops, but instead seek means of supporting or using them.


I do not think it is duty. (Otherwise noone would be so frightened to anger Stanley if there was some duty to not disband units he is angry at), I think it is simply pride and strategy. If you do not grow, some day someone else will grow big enough to swallow you.

Karadan wrote:It certainly would explain why GK's cities are held by a mixture of living and decrypted units, instead of just decrypted.


You can only create a limited amount of troups by your cities. It was clear from the start that decrypting units from the enemy will not stay that easy once they understood what hits them. So you want to produce as much as you can. And as long as you can pay the upkeep, a living unit is still better, because you can use it twice, while decrypted can only "die" once.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby onlyme » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:14 am

Karadan wrote:but there are quite a few cities throughout the comic that have been described as having various token forces and such garrisoned in them, and it seems like a big waste of upkeep shmuckers, because the forces seemed to be reasonably large, but also so small that they were inconsequential against any real force,


Think about how many units Goodminton had with so few cities and still had with only one city left. We do not know how much more upkeep units with leadership cost, but I'd guess a city with only some big enough force to to defend against any barbarians coming along and to avoid any sides around you just taking it cheaply will still produce a plus. And if the plus is only new units generated.

Karadan wrote:particularly once the enemy learned about the decrypted, you'd think that they'd just give up the cities (much like unaroyal did).


Isn't that why GK is trying a decapitating strike once the crown coalition had learned that tactic?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Karadan » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:55 am

onlyme wrote:You can only create a limited amount of troups by your cities. It was clear from the start that decrypting units from the enemy will not stay that easy once they understood what hits them. So you want to produce as much as you can. And as long as you can pay the upkeep, a living unit is still better, because you can use it twice, while decrypted can only "die" once.

True, but only if Wanda happens to be handy. Otherwise they're no more useful, and in fact have some possible disadvantages (such as a potential for low loyalty, though some of the Decrypted might have this problem as well), beyond sucking resources. I do agree, it might not be Duty, but strategy. Of course, Stanley hasn't actually disbanded anyone who has annoyed him, so it could be an empty threat, or annoying Stanley might be sufficient reason that disbanding someone doesn't go against his Duty. I do like the strategy angle very much though.

onlyme wrote:Think about how many units Goodminton had with so few cities and still had with only one city left. We do not know how much more upkeep units with leadership cost, but I'd guess a city with only some big enough force to to defend against any barbarians coming along and to avoid any sides around you just taking it cheaply will still produce a plus. And if the plus is only new units generated.
Well, how many units is subjective. Sure, they had a seemingly good number of units, but was it really alot? Or was it a minimal force that couldn't hold it's own? Or did it have more units than it should have with that number of cities thanks to pulling forces back from lost cities?

onlyme wrote:Isn't that why GK is trying a decapitating strike once the crown coalition had learned that tactic?


No, they're going with the decapitation strategy because Jetstone is the single biggest threat to them, and taking out the ruler with no heir basically destroys the entire side. It's far easier than waging a long protracted war to take cities one by one, particularly if taking cities is going to put them past the point of diminishing returns. They weren't exactly being very secretive about the decrypted, particularly the parley with unaroyal, and Jetstone isn't the only side that knows about the Decrypted. Charley knows about them, Transilvito knows about them, that side that doesn't like Jetstone knows about them. Plenty of other sides know, so I don't think the decapitation strike has to do with containing information about the existence of the decrypted. Oh, also all of MK knows.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:30 am

Karadan wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:
Karadan wrote:It certainly would explain why GK's cities are held by a mixture of living and decrypted units, instead of just decrypted.

I agree with your assessment, but I'll point out that Stanley's mistrust of Wanda and her minions are more than sufficient to explain why he's popping units that aren't fanatically loyal to her.

Agreed. I thought of that too as I was posting. It is just the sort of thing Stanley would do, but there are quite a few cities throughout the comic that have been described as having various token forces and such garrisoned in them, and it seems like a big waste of upkeep shmuckers, because the forces seemed to be reasonably large, but also so small that they were inconsequential against any real force, particularly once the enemy learned about the decrypted, you'd think that they'd just give up the cities (much like unaroyal did).


-We know that in Erfworld there's "garrison" units, that can't get out of the city they were popped in, but aparently have much lower, if not zero upkeep. At least the leaders complain they'll drain more smuckkers if promoted to field units.
-If you don't have any defenders in the city, a lone enemy scout can just waltz in and take it.
-Cities give powerful defensive bonus, so a small army defending it forces your enemy to bring a much bigger force. However if you then try to retreat the defenders, they're easy pickings once they're in the open, while a glorious last stand may seriously bleed the enemy.
-It's also quite common in this kind of games that you get some kind of economic/politic benefit for having a military garrison stationed in it, usually representing the troops policing keep population to keep it in check and preventing riots.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:55 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:-If you don't have any defenders in the city, a lone enemy scout can just waltz in and take it.


Pretty certain you need siege to get inside. A lone siege unit could do this, not a lone non-flying scout
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby kevistrophic » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:39 am

Kreistor wrote:Pretty certain you need siege to get inside. A lone siege unit could do this, not a lone non-flying scout
Purple dwagons are mostly non-siege units that can make a (seriously potent) siege attack, or siege units that are also good for combat, if you wanna look at it that way. We haven't seen any siege quite as fast as a purple dwagon so far, but I could imagine there being some decently fast, non-flying scout units that are relatively cheap and available and come with a siege special. They might not be excellent siege units, but good enough that they're on the back of chief warlords' minds when deciding to pop garrisons.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby drachefly » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:48 am

Kreistor wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:-If you don't have any defenders in the city, a lone enemy scout can just waltz in and take it.


Pretty certain you need siege to get inside. A lone siege unit could do this, not a lone non-flying scout


I remember that the degree to which the walls were manned was important. That was why they needed all those undead on the walls.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Goshen » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:52 pm

Whine. When will there be another update? :(
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:37 am

drachefly wrote:
Kreistor wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:-If you don't have any defenders in the city, a lone enemy scout can just waltz in and take it.


Pretty certain you need siege to get inside. A lone siege unit could do this, not a lone non-flying scout


I remember that the degree to which the walls were manned was important. That was why they needed all those undead on the walls.


Indeed.

Plus in this update we can see even basic infantry with hand weapons can damage a stone wall.

"Siege units" probably get a massive bonus when attacking walls, but normal troops can probably damage them just as well, just more slowly. If the city has a garrison shooting arrows, they'll probably get shot down before they can do much, but if the city has no garrison at all, they can just chip away at the wall until it comes down. It's not like the day will end before they end turn anyway.

Siege units is what you use when the enemy city is garrisoned and you need to take them down fast.

Plus as Hamster himself said, if Ansom had just zerg rushed the walls with basic troops instead of waiting for the slow siege ladders to arrive and position themselves, he could've taken GK right when he arrived (altough with horrendous casualities, but hey, that's for what 25-to-1 numeric advantage is for).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Swodaems » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:35 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:
drachefly wrote:I remember that the degree to which the walls were manned was important. That was why they needed all those undead on the walls.


Indeed.

Plus in this update we can see even basic infantry with hand weapons can damage a stone wall.

"Siege units" probably get a massive bonus when attacking walls, but normal troops can probably damage them just as well, just more slowly. If the city has a garrison shooting arrows, they'll probably get shot down before they can do much, but if the city has no garrison at all, they can just chip away at the wall until it comes down. It's not like the day will end before they end turn anyway.

Siege units is what you use when the enemy city is garrisoned and you need to take them down fast.

Plus as Hamster himself said, if Ansom had just zerg rushed the walls with basic troops instead of waiting for the slow siege ladders to arrive and position themselves, he could've taken GK right when he arrived (altough with horrendous casualities, but hey, that's for what 25-to-1 numeric advantage is for).

Taking into account Tommy's description of siege towers, those infantry were probably diggers that arrived with the siege towers. We can see, in the panel were the infantry mentioned are damaging the wall with picks and shovels, that they are standing on some wooden part of the tower, either the gangplank lowered on the previous panel or the bottom level. Siege towers in Erfworld aren't about putting troops on top of a city's wall, they're about holding, transporting, and protecting troops capable of doing damage to the wall itself. Yeah, that's somewhat counterintuitive with little connection to how things work here in Stupidworld, but what in Erfworld isn't.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:23 pm

Swodaems wrote:Taking into account Tommy's description of siege towers, those infantry were probably diggers that arrived with the siege towers. We can see, in the panel were the infantry mentioned are damaging the wall with picks and shovels, that they are standing on some wooden part of the tower, either the gangplank lowered on the previous panel or the bottom level. Siege towers in Erfworld aren't about putting troops on top of a city's wall, they're about holding, transporting, and protecting troops capable of doing damage to the wall itself. Yeah, that's somewhat counterintuitive with little connection to how things work here in Stupidworld, but what in Erfworld isn't.


Prior to gunpowder, the way to "mine" (undermine) a wall was to dig underneath it and cause it to crash down. That's how Saladin breached the walls at Jerusalem (Kingdom of Heaven gives him counter-weight Trebuchets, and he may have had some small ones, but none are recorded to have assaulted Jerusalem, and especially none of the massive size (more along the size of Warwolf) seen in the movie which wasn't built until over 100 years later in a region with much larger and better wood). Galleries, Testudo, and Towers all served to bring troops to the wall or gate in an attempt to protect forces working to breach or scale the walls. And, of course, there was the ramp built to Masada. Siege craft in Erfworld would certainly benefit from Fabrication near the city, since most siege engines were either built from materials near the castle being assaulted, or shipped in parts and rebuilt near the city. Counterweight trebuchets were used into the 16th century, 400 years after gunpowder and cannon became available.

Point is, many siege engines did indeed bring sappers to the walls instead of trying to put them on top.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Swodaems » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:35 pm

Kreistor wrote:Point is, many siege engines did indeed bring sappers to the walls instead of trying to put them on top.

Well yes, there were specific siege engines meant to do that task, but most of those amount to simple portable shelters meant for temporary use until the sappers had dug themselves a big enough hole to hide in. Those portable shelters also looked nothing like the great lumbering siege towers that appear in the comic. A simple box or tortoise shell shaped design was far more common for them, and far more suited to the purpose at hand.

The siege engines that we see in the comic, Siege towers, were built here either to get troops up and over a wall if assault with simpler ladders failed or to provide archers and artillery, (likely ballista or catapults,) with a better, and moveable, vantage point. Using them in the manner the comic does, letting a small group of diggers/miners/sappers attack a wall at a slightly higher point in order to bring it down, was simply not done as far less expensive options were typically present.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Kreistor » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:44 pm

We have limited numbers of battles to consider, so concluding that all possible siege engines in Erfworld have been revealed is presumptuous. Cities have limited production lists, so Jetstone simply may not have Tortuda on its production lists. When you lack knowledge of mechanical engineering that tells you how to build the engines without a city, you use whatever you can make, and don't concern yourself with what you want, but can't produce.

Personally, that one is something I feel Parson should have introduced. One of the first things I would have done was see if the Twolls could build a trebuchet. These guys would not see a threat in an army with no siege, so when the twolls build a bucnh of trebuchets and start tearing the walls down, we've got a bit of an exploit. Even towers could be built on site, instead of produced and moved.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby Karadan » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:06 am

Well, Parson did make a note somewhere about wondering what would happen if he tried to 'invent' anything from Stupidworld in Erfworld. We haven't yet seen any evidence that he has attempted this (beyond a picnic basket, which worked out well). But given that it is Parson, I doubt he hasn't tried something that we haven't seen yet. Also, with the purple dwagons there really isn't much need for building siege engines.

As for the somewhat odd siege towers, GK itself could have something to do with it. It is described as basically having the best walls/defensive bonuses in all of Erfworld, and if you look at those pages, you'll notice that even with those towers, they can't reach the top of the walls (which look to be something like 30m thick and 60m tall). The towers might be required to have any chance. And as Kreistor pointed out, Jestone may simply have no other options, because they can't produce anything else, and 'invention' or 'ingenuity' or 'improvisation' seem to not exist.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 029

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:09 am

Allow me to point out the capture of Warchalking here.

"The column was three hexes long. No unit within it had less than eighteen move. No unit within it had lower than six base attack."


"Its outer walls were little more than a man-height ring of stones on an earthen berm, with a front gate of wrought iron, flanked by stone blockhouses"

"They had come in so fast, the attackers. Like the gate wasn't even there."

"The Chief Warlord? A high-level Caster? Twelve stacks of heavies, knights, dwagons and Archons? For this dumpy town?"


Nowhere is specialized siege of any kind mentioned. GK troops just waltzed over a low-level wall thanks to their superior stats.

Seriously, why bother to figure out if you can build trebuchets or anything else when you have stuff like dwagons that breath fire and sonic and acidic poo and have eighteen move and are melee powerhouses to boost?

This reminds me, the cloth golems are also heavies, but we've seen they're able to damage walls with thrown rocks.
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