Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby ftl » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:25 pm

Oh, and Jack is epic and awesome, as usual.
ftl
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:15 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Kaed » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:53 pm

ftl wrote:Wow. That's a lot of casters. No wonder FAQ could survive as a bubble side.

On the other hand, it's so amazing that everyone's response is that they're "going to waste" if they're not being used to croak enemies and conquer the world. Wasn't there the whole flamewar about Jillian a while back, about how she's bloodthirsty and wants to do nothing but fight? And how even erfworlders should be above that? Well, now we have a side that IS above that - they have all the resources necessary to wage devastating wars, and they're deciding not to, they just want to be peaceful and chitchat about philosophy and not disturb anyone - and everyone immediately chimes in about how their power is "going to waste".


I never participated in any such debate. Jillain is a fine, no-nonsense character who doesn't put up with all that pretentious shit the royals spew everywhere.

And don't fool yourself about Faq. They don't want to be peaceful and chitchat about philosophy - they're just as pretentious as the other royals, perhaps even worse. They mistreat their warlords and combat casters, and spend all their time blowing hot air about philosophy and thinking it makes them better than everyone else. This is not an enlightened side, it's a damn HIPSTER side. Ooooh fighting and conquest is so ~mainstream~ we prefer to talk about philosophy and hide away in our little bubble kingdom and that makes us superior~ Beyone you dirty swordswinging apes.
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
Kaed
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 813
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 4:28 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Balerion » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:14 pm

Personally, I am most excited to watch a Mathamancer and Signamancer in action. Two fields that we have had questions about for a while :)

As to the waste of resources cry, I have to agree. The reason is pretty simple: it doesn't diminish your ability to engage in philosophy just because you spend time every day creating scrolls/enchanting items/spelling the tower. Then, you are prepared should the worst happen (and having that tiny tower with casters being your primary defense is pure idiocy) and can spend your evenings/ most of the day still on philosophy.

In their place, having been hidden for so long, they should have established themselves with a lot of currency in the MK and then used that to forge tri-links and spam powerful items (and then be safely unraveled afterward). Expensive, but the benefits would be obscene. And all it is really costing is scrolls and so forth you aren't using anyway.

EDIT:Wanted to throw out a couple of ideas for items. Math + predict could get Jillian something to find the most lucrative mercenary gigs that Charlie won't steal from them. We already know that Look + Fool generates some fun toys. Without knowing how the others work, it's hard to know what they could forge, but FAQ easily should have been strong enough that Stanley dies instead of conquering.
Balerion
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 1:12 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby fruityjanitor » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:39 pm

I literally laughed out loud when I saw that their Lookamancer was named "big" Brother Orwell.

This is fun learning about Faq and seeing how awesome Jack was even back then. I hope we don't have to wait too long to see another Faq update.
fruityjanitor
YOTD + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
YOTD + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:36 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Fabo » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:02 pm

Hmm.

Balerion, do you happen to remember this gal?

Image

Well, since it looks like you dont, let me introduce her. This is, nay, this was Misty the lookamancer. She fell dead from backlash of breaking the tri-link.
She is the embodiment of the reasons you dont just do links from the position of authority.

Kaed: I like how everything not mainstream is being looked at in the way of "because opposite is too mainstream". So everything that is not mainstream is hipster. Meanwhile, being hipster is mainstream, which is soooo meta. Or ironic. Depends on your look.
But the funny thing is, most parts of the western culture consider wars, or violence in general, an evil and bad way to do things. Unless it is like necessary evil. Definition of "neccessary" varies though. I would say, that the kingdom of FAQ is in fact most closely related to stupidworld politics, especially to some countries. Like Switzerland. They are, very similarily, hard to access, and historically neutral, but they maintain their neutrality differently, because of the nature of the worlds (more on this later, if anyone is interested - I will say so much as that "Si vis pacem, para bellum" somehow does not seem working in erfworld).

In conclusion, I am, too, surprised by very visible contrast in what we had with heavy criticism of Jillian, and now, here, we have criticism of exactly the opposite.1
Fabo
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:11 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Raza » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:07 pm

Jack's always fun.

I wonder why Jillian doesn't take the shockamancer along; he/she would kick ass from gwiffonback and could gain some levels, and the merc force could rent out for more.

Sure, shockamancers are useful if you suffer an air attack, but FAQ's optimized to hide, not win battles. If it gets to the point where the shockamancer comes in handy they'd likely be screwed without a defense force anyway. Also, leveling the caster could mean more powerful spell defenses on the long term.
User avatar
Raza
 
Posts: 317
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 9:03 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Balerion » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:10 pm

Fabo wrote:Hmm.

Balerion, do you happen to remember this gal?

Image

Well, since it looks like you dont, let me introduce her. This is, nay, this was Misty the lookamancer. She fell dead from backlash of breaking the tri-link.
She is the embodiment of the reasons you dont just do links from the position of authority.


And this is why I mentioned that you make sure you have the cash not only to pay for the thinkamancer but to pay for the others to dissolve the linkup safely, as was done for the maggie/sizemore/wanda. Takes time to get all the rands, but FAQ has plenty of time.
Balerion
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 1:12 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Swodaems » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:48 pm

My thoughts on this update in the order they occured:


Alright, unless we get further information, I have to agree with Jillian about the silliness of Faq's current design. Banhammer may have just crossed the line from overbearing father to total incompetent. So much for the hope of Banhammer being more than just the plot device that Overlord Firebaugh was. A good tower casting bonus could be useful for other things besides combat and is just a sensible precaution. (Jillian's later decision to simply redesign the city as the opposite of what her father had will cause her problems when GK takes one look at the city and sends in a land based attack with the dwagons acting like heavies. Jillian is apparently so used to dealing with gwiffons that she has forgotten that other flying units have feet. Her top heavy metal tower is going to snap in half once the purples reach its base.) Of course, perhaps the overly strong walls and weak looking tower are actually meant to invite an airspace attack. We don't know the actual math on tower damage, so the lack of casting bonus may be offset by the sheer number of casters that Faq had. The city's design could be a form of trap meant to make any flying attacker over estimate their chances and do an airspace attack with .


8 is indeed a extremely high amount of casters proportionate to what other Faq forces we have seen. (Wanda will make 9.) I have to wonder if those casters are hired casters, captured casters, were popped by Faq, or some mix of the above. (Each possibilty has a different significance to the story.) Since only Wanda, Jack, and Marie appear later in the story, we should assume that the rest croaked during the Fall of Faq. Stanley never specifically mentioned croaking any casters when he described the battle, so I think Wanda did it either when she went up into the tower or in the turns preceeding the battle.

After reading his name, I started thinking that the only reason they keep Rusty Trombone around is for sex. He keeps getting blown.


Wait, did she just call Jack a Royal? Is he a non-heir sibling of her's or a Royal popped by another side?


I am going to restate my tinfoil haberdashery about Jillian's mercenary group not actually being needed to maintain Faq's current upkeep. (We did a lot of arguing about this in the episode 29 thread.) Instead, I think the 'necessary evil' of hiring out her squad is a bit more sinister than that.

I don't think that the warlords are meant to come back at all. They are simply being sent off to croak so that new ones can be popped. We know that the only way to pop a caster is to pop a warlord and hope for the best. We also know that the odds of getting a caster or a warlord are very much in favor of getting a warlord. This makes the fact that Faq may actually have more casters than warlords extremely odd. (For warlords, I count Banhammer, Jillian, the other 3 in Jillian's group, Sergent Lepper (of course, his non-com rank may signify that he is not actually a warlord,) and maybe 1 or 2 others managing Otoh or Kibo. Of course, there may be other mercenary groups out there with more Warlords, but I would have expected to have heard of them by now.) If Faq is minmaxing its number of casters, it might be continually popping warlords hoping to get another caster and then sending the excess warlords they get out to croak.


It feels sort of odd to say this, but I really don't like the idea of Book 0 updates and Book 2 updates being mixed like this. Book 0 seems primarily to be the development of Wanda, Jillian, and other characters currently present and active in the story. As such, there is going to be significant bleed-thru between the story lines as our opinions of the characters and their actions in one story are influenced by what we are shown of them in the other. (Ideally, the audience could treat the character as a seperate entity for each story, but that simply won't happen, at least not for me.) However, we have to remember that these two books are likely to be separated out sometime in the future. That bleed-thru effect will be lost and the reading experience will be changed.
Swodaems
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:52 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby DuckDodgers » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:17 pm

Well, one thing I didnt expect any time soon was to be sharing a last name with an Erfworld character, however minor Master of the Garrison turns out to be (or not). Just an uncommon enough name that it's always interesting when it shows up somewhere.
DuckDodgers
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:09 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby cheeseaholic » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:40 pm

For people saying that the city should be upgraded, remember that veils work best when what they're veiling is like what they're veiling it as. So a huge tower might be difficult to deal with.
cheeseaholic
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Zeku » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:56 pm

I don't understand why everyone in this thread is talking about the tactical realities of having so many casters.

The entire nature of Faq, as described in this update, and many other places, is to avoid war and discuss knowledge, reality, and frequently asked questions. The casters were purposely popped, not just to maintain the city, but to provide insight.

Jillian, is, as always, a simply horrible character that I despise utterly. You don't just randomly kiss sycophants when you are in a position of power, and/or are good looking. (?) It's unavoidable that those people will develop feelings about you. And we know what happens later in the story. Jillian is weak, and wishes to be dominated by people who are dead inside. (TM) Note that this statement is not intended to detract from Wanda in any way.
Zeku
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:35 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Saladman » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:59 pm

Balerion wrote:And this is why I mentioned that you make sure you have the cash not only to pay for the thinkamancer but to pay for the others to dissolve the linkup safely, as was done for the maggie/sizemore/wanda. Takes time to get all the rands, but FAQ has plenty of time.


My strong impression has been that mercenary casters, even from the magic kingdom, work for sides for Schmuckers, and rands are purely internal. In fact that's pretty clear in the case of upkeep, and its reasonable to guess at a bonus for their purse, plus perhaps gems if their contract is generous/dangerous enough to take them above their purse limit. If they just wanted rands they could stay safe from being croaked in the MK. An outside kingdom could possibly barter with large amounts of rations, but that might come to the same thing. Nor is it clear that MK casters really need or want a bunch of random scrolls. Dirtamancy scrolls maybe, as a substitute for a discipline both rare and useful in the MK, but a mathamancy scroll isn't going to water your garden or build your hut.

Too, without a native Thinkamancer Faq can't just order the link done and hire the clean-up crew later. They'd have to negotiate the entire package. We know as readers enough thinkamancers can break it mostly safely, but that doesn't mean the prospective thinkamancer is going to consider it entirely safe or desirable. Too, thinkamancers are one of the more cohesive disciplines in the MK, so they might weigh the offer on whether the Great Minds thought it in their interests, and not just based on the pay.
Saladman
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:46 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Saladman » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:04 pm

Swodaems wrote:I am going to restate my tinfoil haberdashery about Jillian's mercenary group not actually being needed to maintain Faq's current upkeep. (We did a lot of arguing about this in the episode 29 thread.) Instead, I think the 'necessary evil' of hiring out her squad is a bit more sinister than that.

I don't think that the warlords are meant to come back at all. They are simply being sent off to croak so that new ones can be popped. We know that the only way to pop a caster is to pop a warlord and hope for the best. We also know that the odds of getting a caster or a warlord are very much in favor of getting a warlord. This makes the fact that Faq may actually have more casters than warlords extremely odd.


I am quite impressed with the second point. Unless they've gotten most of their casters from other sides or the magic kingdom that would be a reasonable, even necessary, explanation given most sides we've seen top at three to maybe five. It doesn't follow that upkeep isn't an issue though. Considering how big a deal the whole world considers upkeep in general, and that a single caster is considered expensive, it seems likely three cities, even with farms and mines, must struggle to support eight casters. And that may also explain the near total lack of troops.
Saladman
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:46 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Fabo » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:46 pm

Swodaems wrote:Wait, did she just call Jack a Royal? Is he a non-heir sibling of her's or a Royal popped by another side?


She called him a royal fool, which could be a function - being a "fool" at royal court, or, alternatively, a level of his foolishness, in that he is so royally screwed up, that he simply cant be punished as a "sane" unit would be.
Fabo
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:11 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Lamech » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:49 pm

ftl wrote:Wow. That's a lot of casters. No wonder FAQ could survive as a bubble side.

On the other hand, it's so amazing that everyone's response is that they're "going to waste" if they're not being used to croak enemies and conquer the world. Wasn't there the whole flamewar about Jillian a while back, about how she's bloodthirsty and wants to do nothing but fight? And how even erfworlders should be above that? Well, now we have a side that IS above that - they have all the resources necessary to wage devastating wars, and they're deciding not to, they just want to be peaceful and chitchat about philosophy and not disturb anyone - and everyone immediately chimes in about how their power is "going to waste".
Its not that they aren't fighting with their casters. Its that (we assume) they aren't stockpiling resources. Scrolls, items, rands, shmuckers, a larger tower, farms ect. They should be able to get cash from the MK/erfworld with merc work. I mean Jillian is always complaining about the lack of flying warlords, they should be able to work out a trade with a side with a wierdomancer, or dollamancer and get the flying special for their warlords, but they don't.

I agree with a hiding strategy. If you have a way to build up resources (casters in this case) no need to charge out into battle, especially when surrounded by Haffaton. But we simply assume that FAQ doesn't have a mountain of scrolls.
Lamech
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:23 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Balerion » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:06 pm

Saladman wrote:
My strong impression has been that mercenary casters, even from the magic kingdom, work for sides for Schmuckers, and rands are purely internal. In fact that's pretty clear in the case of upkeep, and its reasonable to guess at a bonus for their purse, plus perhaps gems if their contract is generous/dangerous enough to take them above their purse limit. If they just wanted rands they could stay safe from being croaked in the MK. An outside kingdom could possibly barter with large amounts of rations, but that might come to the same thing. Nor is it clear that MK casters really need or want a bunch of random scrolls. Dirtamancy scrolls maybe, as a substitute for a discipline both rare and useful in the MK, but a mathamancy scroll isn't going to water your garden or build your hut.


The cash/rand line is relatively blurred as far as I can tell. Sizemore for instance takes lessons from Janice for rands, but his side pays schmuckers for the summon spell. So if FAQ could pass off the transaction as a personal thing, it seems that rands might work; otherwise schmuckers are indeed needed.

As to the scroll market, perhaps it doesn't generate rands but it will get you schmuckers. Look to book 2 where GK is feeling the hurt when the MK stops selling them healing scrolls. There will always be sides that can use a little boost from a discipline they don't have access to. And if you can sell scrolls for schmuckers, you can almost certainly either convert them to rands or just buy with them. Or you can teach other casters, something the MK does need.

It really doesn't feel like Faq's upkeep calculations are already dependent on scroll selling, but if it is then getting the money together to accomplish this becomes prohibitive and the idea has to be scrubbed.
Too, without a native Thinkamancer Faq can't just order the link done and hire the clean-up crew later. They'd have to negotiate the entire package. We know as readers enough thinkamancers can break it mostly safely, but that doesn't mean the prospective thinkamancer is going to consider it entirely safe or desirable. Too, thinkamancers are one of the more cohesive disciplines in the MK, so they might weigh the offer on whether the Great Minds thought it in their interests, and not just based on the pay.


I don't think FAQ would have a hard time convincing the Great Minds. They are one of the few sides not really involved in active desolation, though I will admit that we are not entirely sure what the Great Minds want. But yes, you would need either a package deal every time or to convince a Thinkamancer to permanently join the side.

These are all valid objections to the idea, and there are complications you would have to get around (for instance, dealing with the chance that despite the standby to unravel the link someone is out for a few turns). But even if you can't manage the tri links, an occasional double link would still provide some useful services.
Balerion
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 1:12 am

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Jinren » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:07 am

yuffiek wrote:Not sure what Brother Labeler's job is for. Might be interesting.


Department of Public Works. Seriously, Banhammer probably assigns as high a priority/budget to the city's appearance as he does to defence. It could well be his primary job to make it look pretty for the sake of looking pretty.

Raza wrote:I wonder why Jillian doesn't take the shockamancer along


Might not want to come. Even if she outranks him, I expect he can ignore her orders no problem if Banhammer thinks it's more spiritually fulfilling for him to listen to his obvious superiors talking about the important things in life.

ftl wrote:it's so amazing that everyone's response is that they're "going to waste"


In fairness, they did end up losing the city to an idiot with an inflatable hammer, apparently as a direct result of this strategy. I like the fact that someone wasn't focusing on all war all the time too, but in this case we do have magic hindsight.
Jinren
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:23 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Saladman » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:59 am

Points well taken Balerion. I was arguing against the strong-form case, but the nuanced one stands up better.
Saladman
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:46 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Fabo » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:23 am

Balerion wrote:The cash/rand line is relatively blurred as far as I can tell. Sizemore for instance takes lessons from Janice for rands, but his side pays schmuckers for the summon spell. So if FAQ could pass off the transaction as a personal thing, it seems that rands might work; otherwise schmuckers are indeed needed.

As to the scroll market, perhaps it doesn't generate rands but it will get you schmuckers. Look to book 2 where GK is feeling the hurt when the MK stops selling them healing scrolls. There will always be sides that can use a little boost from a discipline they don't have access to. And if you can sell scrolls for schmuckers, you can almost certainly either convert them to rands or just buy with them. Or you can teach other casters, something the MK does need.

It really doesn't feel like Faq's upkeep calculations are already dependent on scroll selling, but if it is then getting the money together to accomplish this becomes prohibitive and the idea has to be scrubbed.


This is a very, very valid point leading to what someone has commented on before - do they send off the warlords to croak? Possibility to earn schmuckers by selling scrolls puts a very different view on mercenary work as neccessary evil, and its not like the side was risking discovery by selling scrolls in MK, where many neutral casters reside, and nobody would be surprised by a caster who claims to have no side, especially considered that their mercenaries have to fly home through high risk territory.

jinren wrote:In fairness, they did end up losing the city to an idiot with an inflatable hammer, apparently as a direct result of this strategy. I like the fact that someone wasn't focusing on all war all the time too, but in this case we do have magic hindsight.


In all fairness, this is not true. They end up loosing the city to idiot with an arkentool, and with enough luck to more than double his number of dwagons on the way. And he only learned abot the city by treason. And the unit who commited treason believed that Stanley will fall, and even Stanley himself admitted, that had he not found so many dwagons along the way, he would have failed.
Fabo
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:11 pm

Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 030

Postby Swodaems » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:54 am

Fabo wrote:In all fairness, this is not true. They end up loosing the city to idiot with an arkentool, and with enough luck to more than double his number of dwagons on the way. And he only learned abot the city by treason. And the unit who commited treason believed that Stanley will fall, and even Stanley himself admitted, that had he not found so many dwagons along the way, he would have failed.


I don't think Faq could have survived had Stanley lost the battle. Since Wanda revealed the betrayal, we have discovered that Rulers have an innate thinkamancy that tells them things the location and general health of all units in their side. Saline IV would have known that Stanley ran into something extremely powerful and where, destroying Faq's secrecy. Wanda was not really thinking her plan thru to the end. Stanley could also have told someone else where he was going once he had the information leading to the exact same result.

Expounding further on the idea that Faq was sacrificing units, I'm going say that Faq had a gwiffon sacrificing scheme that extended beyond their warlord sacrificing one. Excess gwiffons that were not sent with Jillian were sent 1 by 1 into the surrounding mountains to be eaten by the local predators, specifically dwagons. That is why Stanley found so many dwagons on his trip to Faq. It was merely a case of predators sticking around their prey.
Swodaems
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:52 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests