Book 2 – Page 78

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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby kriss1989 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:59 pm

zuche wrote:
Azgrut wrote:Bloody finally.

Stupid traitor!


You can't betray someone that coerces you into service beyond death.

Good point. If you're shanghaied then it's not mutiny or treachery if you betray the ones that coerced you.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby the_tick_rules » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:11 pm

Ever notice how bad sides seem to be at protecting their critical players?
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Pooga » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:17 pm

0beron wrote:
Saladman wrote:Parson won't get there. The tower is down, meaning the portal is closed.

The portal is in the dungeon, so it is still be open. The reason they were worried about the portal is that if GK TOOK the city, it would stop being a Capital, and thus lose it's portal. Because the Jetstone units aren't in chains, we know they still hold the city.

Not according to this comic.

Book 2 - Page 70 wrote:Jack: Cause: If we took the capital now, it would no longer be a capital. This portal would close. Effect: Our Chief Warlord would be trapped in the Magic Kingdom.
Captain: Yes, but that will happen at any moment anyway. As soon as the tower falls.
Jack: ... I ... You know, I did wonder why collapsing the tower was not in his original battle plan.


I should mention that this doesn't mean Parson is trapped in the Magic Kingdom, or that he can't get to Jetstone in time to affect the outcome of the battle, but he's not doing it through the dungeon portal. That ship has sailed.
Last edited by Pooga on Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby shadowdemon_lord » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:24 pm

To be fair, Jet Stone is up against some of the most powerful units in all of Erfworld en masse. Considering the build up, if Rob is going to have the archons go down (something I'm unconvinced of), he kind of has to make them go down with a bang. I get the idea that re-croaking Ossomer is only the beginning. I bet they're going to croak Stanley and a couple of casters as well.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby drachefly » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:35 pm

Pooga wrote:
Book 2 - Page 70 wrote:Jack: Cause: If we took the capital now, it would no longer be a capital. This portal would close. Effect: Our Chief Warlord would be trapped in the Magic Kingdom.
Captain: Yes, but that will happen at any moment anyway. As soon as the tower falls.
Jack: ... I ... You know, I did wonder why collapsing the tower was not in his original battle plan.


I should mention that this doesn't mean Parson is trapped in the Magic Kingdom, or that he can't get to Jetstone in time to affect the outcome of the battle, but he's not doing it through the dungeon portal. That ship has sailed.



I think they're unaware of the presence of Tramennis' stack in the Atrium. Therefore, though the tower is down, Jack is wrong that it means the city has fallen. Could be right, though.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby multilis » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:50 pm

Pooga wrote:Not according to this comic.

Jack: "Cause: If we take the city now it will no longer be a capital, the portal will close"
Warlord: "That will happen... as soon as the tower falls"

- *** Because the king is in the tower *** http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F098b.jpg (no heir and our side ends) - the original attack on Spacerock - Ansom's plan was quick decapitation strike to kill the king.


Alternative way to win is to gain complete control of garrison of Spacerock.

Battle for GK, book 1, Parson ordered the destruction of all the upper part of city which would include the tower, and city had not yet fallen, one zone remained left to capture.

Unlike most cities, Spacerock does not have Tunnels. Rather, it has "an unusually ornate and well-defended Garrison. Its outer structure is not merely a wall, but a full twelve-story palace complex of rooms and chambers."

Is garrison completely under GK control? (We saw Wanda win the portal room, unknown status of rest. If everything has fallen then King and his remaining stack are barbarians and Jetstone is no more. But King thinks he can still save Jetstone with this battle that suggests a few minutes ago that some part of garrison is still contested)
Last edited by multilis on Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Whispri » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:10 pm

If Gobwin Knob had taken the City, the Dwagons would be free to fly up and engage. Ergo, there must be some Jetstone Units holding out in the Garrison, most likely survivors from the Tower's fall.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Swodaems » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:19 pm

Poor Ossomer, dusted by the combination of his lack of good thigh muscles, his lack of the common sense required to try wrapping his arms around carpet or clutch the saddle hard, and Jetstone's inability place him in a protected position.

This page simply does not sit right with me. It has elements that could be comedy, tragedy, and drama, but they aren't clearly defined enough for the page to work separately as either and they somehow don't go together well enough to avoid getting an apathetic reaction from me. (I can't explain exactly why I feel they don't go together. They just don't.)

Aside from not working as a standalone piece, I think this page also fits horribly as part of the story. (Or the story horribly fits it.) We spent all that time getting to know Ossomer in the first two parts of Book 2, and he was dusted within 4 pages of part 3 with as little ceremony as taking out the trash. (I'm not complaining about his death because I like the character or liked how he was established. I did not like getting to know Ossomer at the time because his page time was a distraction from other characters that I actually cared about. (I went on a rant earlier about the fact that Ossomer's recent thought processes have been better expained than Parson's recent ones.) Ossomer's cheap death means that all that time spent reading the buildup of his character now feels wasted. If he was meant to be nothing more than the first decrypted to turn, then alot of his scenes prior to his turning could have been replaced with a shot or two of him looking down at the battle below while brooding, possibly while saying something disdainful about the lack of a capture plan.) If Ossomer's death was meant to actually have meaning to us, then it could have been played for a lot more comedy, tragedy, or drama than it was. If his turning and death is just something required to drive later events in the story, then Ossomer was over developed for the purpose.

[quote='Ossomer from two comic pages ago']watch for dismount attacks.[/quote] 'Do as I say, not as I do.'
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby 0beron » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:20 pm

When a city is captured by an invading side, any units remaining of the defending side are captured (put in chains). Because we don't see that happening, we KNOW the city is still in Jetstone hands, meaning it is still a Capital, and the Portal is still open. The Duke assumed that when the Tower fell, they would have taken the Garrison, and thus the city. Clearly that has not occurred, so the Portal is still open.

Also, it was considered possible by some on the forum that the falling Tower could crush the Dungeon. But since the Tower fell to the side, that didn't happen either.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby arin » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:01 pm

0beron wrote:When a city is captured by an invading side, any units remaining of the defending side are captured (put in chains).


But is GK still technically an invading side? Its not their turn anymore, which, to the best of our knowledge, is unprecedented in Erfworld, so all nets are off. We dont know if a city flipping hands on the /defenders/ turn leads to a chain reaction (pun intended ;) )

A capital is still a capital even if its overlord is not in the hex, much less the garrison. So slatelys presence there is irrelevant. Duke antium didnt even /know/ slately was still there, so his remarks about the portal closing when the tower falls do not necessarily imply an assumption of another condition. I will concede that its /possible/ - but i dont think it likely. I think the portal is now closed.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby 0beron » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:07 pm

arin wrote:
0beron wrote:When a city is captured by an invading side, any units remaining of the defending side are captured (put in chains).

But is GK still technically an invading side? Its not their turn anymore, which, to the best of our knowledge, is unprecedented in Erfworld, so all nets are off.

Correct, and the fact that it is not GK's turn may be the only thing keeping them from taking the city, since we don't know the status of the Dungeon and Courtyard at this point. But we can definitely still say that Jetstone holds the city, because regardless of turn, they would still be captured once the city is taken.

arin wrote:A capital is still a capital even if its overlord is not in the hex, much less the garrison. So slatelys presence there is irrelevant. Duke antium didnt even /know/ slately was still there, so his remarks about the portal closing when the tower falls do not necessarily imply an assumption of another condition.

The Duke's assumption could have also been based on the King CROAKING from the Tower falling. He assumed the King had no means of escape, so that's why Slately being in the Tower would be important.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby multilis » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:28 pm

"any units remaining of the defending side are captured (put in chains). Because we don't see that happening, we KNOW the city is still in Jetstone hands, meaning it is still a Capital, and the Portal is still open"

It is possible that any units in personal stack of king would go barbarian and stay with him, especially when in airspace... rules aren't that clear. But seems most likely that Jetstone still hasn't fallen.

(From book 0, we know that king/ruler can sense every unit, natural thinkomancy link. King doesn't feel urgent need to fly outside city parameter to avoid being chained up that means he knows some of his units are likely to survive in garrison for a while, or his personal stack and him go barbarian inside city even if city falls, or he is simply really stupid)

***

Jetstone has another capital site, unknown what is needed to switch capitals, and whether than can happen automatically when first one falls. (Eg if king falls and you have heir the heir automatically becomes king, chance that same with capital, and only way to decapitate is kill the king or capture other capital sites as well).

If it is easy to use backup capital, that may also come into play with GK... If a surprise attack on GK by Charlie, then Spacerock could suddenly flip to be Stanley's capital if Stanley or heir can somehow survive. If Parson is made heir and Parson is in magic kingdom, things *really* get weird. (Stanley can't leave city until it is his sides turn, so only could promote heir or try to hold garrison for first turn of attack. His casters in magic kingdom may now easily be able to portal back from magic kingdom to help hold capital)

Book 1, Stanley could fly to FAQ, rebuild city, but couldn't take the treasury with him if GK fell. FAQ was a capital city site... limited by what purses of warlords could hold in transferring funds. (Or perhaps the time it takes to fly to backup capital and rebuild it was greater than time GK would be expected survive without ruler and same story with FAQ evacuation)

"With this many commanders, they could distribute most of the treasury into individual purses, so unit upkeep could be maintained for oh, a dozen, two dozen turns, depending. That’d be enough with the right destination city, but where exactly did they plan to go?" - Book 0, #032
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby gameboy1234 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:12 pm

Pooga wrote:I should mention that this doesn't mean Parson is trapped in the Magic Kingdom, or that he can't get to Jetstone in time to affect the outcome of the battle, but he's not doing it through the dungeon portal. That ship has sailed.



Er, no. The portal is fine, it's still there. You can see it in the background in later panels. When it disappears in panel two, that's just Jack's illusion.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Squall83 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:19 pm

What's wrong with the face of the rightmost Archon in panel 7?

Thanks, Rob, for the regular updates! I'm fully hooked on the comic and the text-updates again. ^^

I didn't expect Ossomer to die that quickly. I liked him. It's too bad that he was so easily provoked into leaving his units and doing something as stupid as rushing head-first into the enemy swarm, because I expect a high-level warlord like him to be a little bit too experienced for that.

I wanted to know what would've happened to him as soon as Wanda returned from MK. So unless Jetstone can capture an Archon alive and bring her to Charlie it will be some time until we get to find out more about the effects of the Pliers.

Man, I want to know how that battle ends. The tower falls, the portal closes soon, Wanda is away, Jack is away, Ossomer's dead (again), Tramennis is out cold and Parson's not there, so apart from the King there aren't anymore main characters fighting.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby atalex » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:31 pm

I can't help noticing the perverse irony of Ossomer's death, which is attributable in part to the design limitations of the carpet which he'd been complaining about in an earlier update. If he'd been riding a proper mount as was his preference, the Archon's rug-pulling trick wouldn't have worked.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:42 pm

Well, always good to see the archons are still OP en masse even when fighting for GK.

Also good to see Rob isn't afraid to kill his characters. Ossomer tried to stand tall in the frontline for the second time on the day, and again it costed him dearly.

Things not looking good at all for the king. Plenty of archons at point blank range, and they've just lost Ossomer's fat leadership bonus.

atalex wrote:I can't help noticing the perverse irony of Ossomer's death, which is attributable in part to the design limitations of the carpet which he'd been complaining about in an earlier update. If he'd been riding a proper mount as was his preference, the Archon's rug-pulling trick wouldn't have worked.


That irks me as well. There's all kind of cool flying mounts around, why does the chief warlord flies around in a simple, unstable rug? We don't see people geting knocked out of dwagons/unipegataurs/gwiffons all the time.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby BrotherRool » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:44 pm

I know it's more traditional to talk about these things from a mechanics/reality inuniverse perspective,

but did anyone feel like the death wasn't sad enough? In the end this felt like a noble thing, charge of the light brigade, one last chance at redemption but it seemed a bit comic in the end.

Maybe I was just too attached to Ossomer and had built up impossibly high expectations, but I think I would have liked an extra panel of seeing him fall, so we could have a thought on the inevitability of it. Instead, for me, it was more like a punchline than what I felt should have been a moment of high drama.

Maybe the reaction shots in the next comic will give me that, it's unfair to take away opinions like this whilst the scene is still in progress, but still, this isn't quite how I wanted Ossomer to go.

I wonder what affect this is going to have on Slately and Slately's death though. I imagine that it means he's going to fight for a couple more pages to seperate out the deaths and make his more tragic because he has to survive whilst Ossomer is dead and his forces become weaker and weaker. Or maybe he'll be captured, that could be interesting, if was Tramenis just appointed heir
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby 0beron » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:16 pm

oslecamo2_temp wrote:That irks me as well. There's all kind of cool flying mounts around, why does the chief warlord flies around in a simple, unstable rug? We don't see people geting knocked out of dwagons/unipegataurs/gwiffons all the time.

Because by the time he turned, there weren't any Uni's left. And under GK, he was just a pretty figurehead they used to offer a bonus, against sides with relatively few fliers.
Also, the carpet may have much higher move than a normal mount, or because it is an item it doesn't count against the stack size.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Azukar » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:21 pm

Well... wasn't expecting to see Ossomer die this quickly!

Though, having said that, it's good to see confirmed that he was still a dust creature despite his change of colours.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:44 pm

0beron wrote:
oslecamo2_temp wrote:That irks me as well. There's all kind of cool flying mounts around, why does the chief warlord flies around in a simple, unstable rug? We don't see people geting knocked out of dwagons/unipegataurs/gwiffons all the time.

Because by the time he turned, there weren't any Uni's left. And under GK, he was just a pretty figurehead they used to offer a bonus, against sides with relatively few fliers.
Also, the carpet may have much higher move than a normal mount, or because it is an item it doesn't count against the stack size.


Remember where he got the carpet in the first place. From Ansom, the previous chief warlord of GK. That got dismounted on the siege of GK and then again when assaulting Ossomer's stack. All the while the rest of GK's leadership and mancers move around in mighty dwagons, none of which got dismounted.

If GK could afford dwagons for all those warlords and hobgobwins, they sure could afford a dwagon for their new heavy hitter.

And when Ossomer turned to Jetstone, he could've just swaped places with someone in an unipegataur. Restacking is a free action after all.

It's kinda useless for the carpet to have higher move since the chief warlord is suposed to keep in formation with the rest of the troops. And I find it hard to believe they would care about stack size when they already have dozens of dwagons and archons all grouped togheter.

BrotherRool wrote:I know it's more traditional to talk about these things from a mechanics/reality inuniverse perspective,

but did anyone feel like the death wasn't sad enough? In the end this felt like a noble thing, charge of the light brigade, one last chance at redemption but it seemed a bit comic in the end.

Maybe I was just too attached to Ossomer and had built up impossibly high expectations, but I think I would have liked an extra panel of seeing him fall, so we could have a thought on the inevitability of it. Instead, for me, it was more like a punchline than what I felt should have been a moment of high drama.

Maybe the reaction shots in the next comic will give me that, it's unfair to take away opinions like this whilst the scene is still in progress, but still, this isn't quite how I wanted Ossomer to go.


That's one of the main points of this comic. This may be a wargame, but it's still war. People rarely get to die honorable/dramatic deaths. One moment he's all mighty and brave, the other he's splatering in the floor, even if he deserved better.
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