Book 2 – Page 79

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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby 0beron » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:01 am

Thoke wrote:It could also be that archons can only remove specials from items. Wouldn't be so powerful that way. But I'm still suspicious about this ability. Doesn't seem like the spell belongs in either shockamancy, foolamancy, dollamancy, or thinkamancy.

Agreed, there are a few more likely possibilities (listed in order of likelihood):
  • The used Shockamancy to "short-out"/destroy the jetpack.
  • The falling Slately was actually Foolamancy, and he's still fine, just hidden from his stack.
  • There was actually a link with Charlie involved.

It's also still up for debate whether REGEDIT was the Archon's spell or Lloyd's.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby cheeseaholic » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:58 am

Hasn't it already been stated that corpses fall? No need to remove specials.

Though I wonder if croaking something does remove all its specials, and that's what causes flying units to fall. It might sink a ship too if ships count as units and sink when they die...that's a few too many mights with the ship example though. I wonder what fun things you could do then with adding specials to corpses, assuming corpses can be given specials. I don't care if you're dead keep firing!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby 0beron » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:01 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:Hasn't it already been stated that corpses fall? No need to remove specials.

THAT is also a possibility...I can't believe I missed thinking of that! The original Slately may have croaked, and REGEDIT is Lloyd's spell duplicating him just in time to keep the side alive.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby elecampane » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:32 pm

Actually, Lloyd's spell could just have following effect: "Inert until target dies. Upon target's death duplicate the target".

Also, I would say, that editing jetpack properties is an application of dollamancy (that was used to create jetpack in the first place), and since archons can have dollamancy, such a spell is in their arsenal.

And I don't think REGEDIT can be just the sound of archons blasting Slately with shockamancy, there's too weak associative connection between "regicide" and "regedit". It is either dittomancer's spell, or non-shockamancy action of archons.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Lamech » Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:49 pm

Thoke wrote:It could also be that archons can only remove specials from items. Wouldn't be so powerful that way. But I'm still suspicious about this ability. Doesn't seem like the spell belongs in either shockamancy, foolamancy, dollamancy, or thinkamancy.
Not part of dollamancy? Dollamancy made the item. Dollamancy should break the item.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Thoke » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:48 pm

Lamech wrote:Not part of dollamancy? Dollamancy made the item. Dollamancy should break the item.


Ah... It could be part of dollamancy in a case of editing the item. I assumed it isn't because REGEDIT as a function means pretty much editing (substracting/adding/copying) anything (in a system). Like a dittomancer does in duplicating things visible and non-visible alike.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Nnelg » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:07 pm

0beron wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:Hasn't it already been stated that corpses fall? No need to remove specials.

THAT is also a possibility...I can't believe I missed thinking of that! The original Slately may have croaked, and REGEDIT is Lloyd's spell duplicating him just in time to keep the side alive.

That's what I've been trying to say this whole time! Now that you mention it I think you're right about REGEDIT being Lloyd's just-in-the-nick-of-time spell too, rather than anything the archons did, if only because the color matches the glow we saw coming from Lloyd earlier.


elecampane wrote:Actually, Lloyd's spell could just have following effect: "Inert until target dies. Upon target's death duplicate the target".

Nah, Rule of Drama opposes such a theory. Not like that really means much, but I'd prefer to believe that this was a close save.

Lamech wrote:
Thoke wrote:It could also be that archons can only remove specials from items. Wouldn't be so powerful that way. But I'm still suspicious about this ability. Doesn't seem like the spell belongs in either shockamancy, foolamancy, dollamancy, or thinkamancy.
Not part of dollamancy? Dollamancy made the item. Dollamancy should break the item.

It's already been said that adding/removing a flying special is in the domain of weirdomancy. Not that I doubt a full dollamancer could cast such a spell on a magic item like you suggest, but the archons are only pseudo-casters. They shouldn't have access to all the nuances of the field that proper specialist would.

MarbitChow wrote:
Nnelg wrote:I just wanted to make it clear though: without conclusive evidence, assuming juice doesn't carry over from turn to turn is just as bad as assuming it does.

I disagree. From everything we've seen of Erfworld so far, we can safely assume that Juice doesn't carry over by default. We can't state it conclusively, but it's a more likely model of how it works. Erfworld has shown that each turn tends to reset units to their 'base state'. Wounds disappear, garbage vanishes, bodies are gone, etc. In the absence of conclusive evidence, casters returning to a "full juice" state seems more likely, and more "in character" for an Erfworld mechanic.

While it would certainly fit the pattern, I would think that magic is just as likely if not more to be the exception that proves the rule. Of course it just as well might not be so. We don't have any conclusive evidence; both theories are just as valid (both match the known facts). As for which is more likely... I doubt there's any way to really qualify that one, since it varies widely according to personal opinion.

0beron wrote:I have to agree with Marbit, based on the example of Bunny. Every turn, she spends her leftover juice thinkagraming with Caesar...if that was juice she could be saving instead, it'd be against her Duty to "waste" it with Caesar.
To play Devil's advocate though, Maggie is very astute about Stanley's mood, and does things to make sure he feels good about himself, because it's better for the side if he is. So perhaps keeping Caesar in a good mood also is better for the side (perhaps lessening his desire/chances of running a coup against Don).

Well, even if the Replenishing Theory is correct, she still could have been using that juice to scribe scrolls or do something else helpful to the side. All that really shows is that rulers don't usually micro their casters; and also that Duty isn't that pervasive.

I'd also like to make it clear that it's possible that casters usually operate at 90% charged, and only spend as much juice as they gain every turn. So if the caster's at 91% at the end of a turn, the last 1% could be considered "leftover" because you'd lose the last 1% of a 10% regeneration anyways, if it wasn't spent. (And lest anyone misinterprets my words, these are just random numbers I'm throwing out here.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby 0beron » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:10 pm

Nnelg wrote:I'd also like to make it clear that it's possible that casters usually operate at 90% charged, and only spend as much juice as they gain every turn. So if the caster's at 91% at the end of a turn, the last 1% could be considered "leftover" because you'd lose the last 1% of a 10% regeneration anyways, if it wasn't spent. (And lest anyone misinterprets my words, these are just random numbers I'm throwing out here.)

Well we know that this at least is not the case for Bunny, because they talk until she runs dry. The call fades cus she has absolutely no juice left.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:36 pm

Nnelg wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:
Nnelg wrote:I just wanted to make it clear though: without conclusive evidence, assuming juice doesn't carry over from turn to turn is just as bad as assuming it does.

I disagree. From everything we've seen of Erfworld so far, we can safely assume that Juice doesn't carry over by default. We can't state it conclusively, but it's a more likely model of how it works. Erfworld has shown that each turn tends to reset units to their 'base state'. Wounds disappear, garbage vanishes, bodies are gone, etc. In the absence of conclusive evidence, casters returning to a "full juice" state seems more likely, and more "in character" for an Erfworld mechanic.

While it would certainly fit the pattern, I would think that magic is just as likely if not more to be the exception that proves the rule. Of course it just as well might not be so. We don't have any conclusive evidence; both theories are just as valid (both match the known facts). As for which is more likely... I doubt there's any way to really qualify that one, since it varies widely according to personal opinion.


The only suport we have for juice carrying over is Jillian's turnmancer.

The turnmancer linked with Charlie.
The turnmancer linked with Charlie, a Thinkmancy Tool wielder. You know, the uber artifacts that laugh at Erfworld rules.

On the other hand, we have the following suporting that juice doesn't carry over:
-Stanley didn't get instantly vaporized when attacking FAQ, despite their shockmancer having absolutely nothing to do for dozens if not hundreds of turns whitout anything to spend juice on.
-We never see either an uber-charged archon that spent the last hundred turns spending juice to take care of specially tough situations.
-Or no other mancer going super-nova actually, at least whitout the support of a tower and/or a link with other mancers.
-We have lots of istances of mancers fully draining their juice at the end of their turn. If they could carry over, then it would be simply retarded of them to don't save at least a little every turn for a rainy day.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Whispri » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:47 pm

Iirc, earlier in Book Zero Wanda spake of using her juices to prolong the brief existence of the Fellows and she felt that doing so was better than wasting her juices entirely. If she could store her juices for later, she's not be concerned with wasting her juices.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby BrotherRool » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:57 pm

Nnelg wrote:
0beron wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:Hasn't it already been stated that corpses fall? No need to remove specials.

THAT is also a possibility...I can't believe I missed thinking of that! The original Slately may have croaked, and REGEDIT is Lloyd's spell duplicating him just in time to keep the side alive.

That's what I've been trying to say this whole time! Now that you mention it I think you're right about REGEDIT being Lloyd's just-in-the-nick-of-time spell too, rather than anything the archons did, if only because the color matches the glow we saw coming from Lloyd earlier.

The glow is the same colour as the archons who were aiming at the King in panel 8 though. If you're talking about the blue effect behind the word then thats almost definitely archon, because it comes from two sources, the same angle and same colour as the two archons lining up in the previous panel. It's also zappy like hand beams, rather than bubbly and spirally, long term like Lloyds affects were.

But it's still possible that the background is the King is being shocked and the word, him being, duplicated at the exact same time which would make dramatic sense. To be honest, I'm now of the opinion that it was probably just a sound effect of the King being killed by normal spells, we had an FML sound effect last comic for a shockamancy (I think?)


The idea that maybe their are two kings in the last three panels is also weaker now I've noticed that the Kings jetpack motion blur clearly shows him moving to get in place for panel ten from above, in a way that seems to be him moving from panel 9. I still think the dialogue would have made more sense for their being two kings but unless Lloyd made three, there's no way the King recovered from the fall in time, Panel 9 is a surprise, so can't be fallen King because Archons would track, and panel 10 is moving from above not below

EDIT: Changed my mind again, I'm back with King being shocked by the blue beams whilst regedited by Lloyd. It's confusing :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby ardent » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:07 am

The dittomancer never cast the spell. Jack did. He did it to allow parson to get through. It's a diversion spell. There is no duplicate king. He never actually fell.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Kyrt » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:39 am

BrotherRool wrote:The glow is the same colour as the archons who were aiming at the King in panel 8 though. If you're talking about the blue effect behind the word then thats almost definitely archon, because it comes from two sources, the same angle and same colour as the two archons lining up in the previous panel. It's also zappy like hand beams, rather than bubbly and spirally, long term like Lloyds affects were.


Yes....and it would be a bit of a cheat to have Regedit apply to Lloyds spell given that.

The idea that maybe their are two kings in the last three panels is also weaker now I've noticed that the Kings jetpack motion blur clearly shows him moving to get in place for panel ten from above


From the position of the Archons, he doesn't seem to ahve moved at all....its Ace and co riding up to meet him. Most of the "blur", to me, are the Archons being dusted.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Housellama » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:14 pm

If there's one thing that I trust, it's Rob's selection and use of words.

I'm with drachefly. The last panel sounds off. "This way" seems extraneous. It seems to imply that there was another way that Lloyd could have done it. Which leads to the question of what is special or different about what apparently just happened. Rob doesn't say things carelessly. If it sounds off, it probably is off. Also, once again, Rob doesn't choose words without a reason. Whatever Regedit is, it was a spell going off. When archons blast someone they don't make a noise. It seems likely to me that Regedit was Lloyd's spell going off, especially since Falling Slately is still wearing his jetpack.

I see one of two things. Either the blasted Slately was the duplicate and the flying Slately is taking advantage of surprise, or that Lloyd didn't create a duplicate per se and simply temporarily doubled the King's stats. That would let him shake off the double blast and account for the fact that he makes two headshots in a row. The doubled stats would explain the qualifier "this way". Doubled stats could still fall under a function of Dittomancy, since something tangible is being doubled.

Just a theory.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:29 pm

ardent wrote:The dittomancer never cast the spell. Jack did. He did it to allow parson to get through. It's a diversion spell. There is no duplicate king. He never actually fell.


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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby BrotherRool » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:18 pm

Kyrt wrote:
The idea that maybe their are two kings in the last three panels is also weaker now I've noticed that the Kings jetpack motion blur clearly shows him moving to get in place for panel ten from above


From the position of the Archons, he doesn't seem to ahve moved at all....its Ace and co riding up to meet him. Most of the "blur", to me, are the Archons being dusted.


My mistake I thought the dusting of the Archons were jetpack fumes :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Nnelg » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:20 pm

0beron wrote:
Nnelg wrote:I'd also like to make it clear that it's possible that casters usually operate at 90% charged, and only spend as much juice as they gain every turn. So if the caster's at 91% at the end of a turn, the last 1% could be considered "leftover" because you'd lose the last 1% of a 10% regeneration anyways, if it wasn't spent. (And lest anyone misinterprets my words, these are just random numbers I'm throwing out here.)

Well we know that this at least is not the case for Bunny, because they talk until she runs dry. The call fades cus she has absolutely no juice left.

Hm, that is definitely very strong evidence for the Repletionist Theory.


PS @oslecamo2:
Most of the examples you gave aren't very strong; all of them could be explained within my theory without stretching it one bit. However, since 0beron has put forward a much better one, I'm not going to argue yours.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby Thoke » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:20 am

ardent wrote:The dittomancer never cast the spell. Jack did. He did it to allow parson to get through. It's a diversion spell. There is no duplicate king. He never actually fell.


I think archons can see through veils, so they would attack the king until commanded not to.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby ardent » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:50 am

Can ALL Archons see through veils? I'm not so sure. But a ditto king doesn't fit a few things.

1) Why didn't the archons SEE king #2. I'm pretty sure dittomancy doesn't allow you to make somebody invisible.
2) Why is the Dittomancer so confused by what the king said. It seems to me that he doesn't even know whats going on.
3) Why isn't this a more well established dittomancer spell. I mean, dupe a warlord, double warlord bonuses.

I'm maybe just looking too hard though.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 79

Postby drachefly » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:04 am

elecampane wrote:Actually, Lloyd's spell could just have following effect: "Inert until target dies. Upon target's death duplicate the target".


That seems the least imbalanced. We can maintain the drama if he cast it just in time.
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