Book 2 – Page 80

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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Nnelg » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:25 am

MarbitChow wrote:Actually, the composition of Parson's forces is significantly more important. I believe: According to his stupid meals, he had 32 archers, 36 spidews (which may or may not have ranged web attacks), a few casters and a couple of air units. That's it. Everything else was melee, and fliers w/ ranged attacks can just pick them off at leisure.

Lamech wrote:I think its just the casters, and taking top tier archers making a difference. All of GK's archery consisted of 32 archers. Jetstone probably brought that many top level archers on the unipegaturs, especially when we consider the dittomancer doubling the shots. I suspect the archons attacking the tower would have used their range/foolamancy/thinkamancy to their advantage and zotted everything before the targets got in range.

Actually, I think you both may be right. As much as I'd like to avoid a "rock-paper-scissors" synthesis of something as complex as warfare, for every task there is a kind of unit best suited for it, and for every unit there is a foil. For the task of taking the GK garrison before it could be reinforced, a mobile unit with high power (though not necessarily high toughness) is needed; archons fit the bill quite well. But for engaging in aerial combat against a glass cannon type? I'd go with some flying shock troops (high toughness to shirk off the flack with few casualties, but with moderate attack sufficient to dispatch the frail archons). From what we've seen unipegitaurs are pretty tough (several archon blasts bouncing off shields), but mounting archers on their backs to turn them into armored gunships was a master stroke in my opinion. Note, however, that this tactic would not be nearly as effective against dwagons, gwiffons, ground-based archers, other unipegitaurs, or archons with a screening force of any of the above.

EDIT:
Interestingly enough, Dwagons would probably have an easier time with these Unipegitaur gunships than they would when facing archons, because they're too tough for the arrows to have much of an impact. Just another example as to how there is no one 'superior' unit type, I guess.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby DoctorJest » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:15 am

0beron wrote:
DoctorJest wrote:
Perhaps they had an artifact bonus during tBfGK

Nope. Remember, Parson used the bracer to calculate the number of Archons needed to capture GK. if they also required a leadership bonus from the dish, he would have needed to know that was possible.

Not necessarily. The bracer is a magic item/artifact so he could just tell it "x number of Charlie's Archons" and it would do the rest.


Given that we've seen Parson come up withe different sets of figures based on new information, it seems clear it can only calculate based on the variables he's aware of. This is clear from subsequent uses of the bracer.
Alternatively, remember that all Command Units (including Parson with his glasses) can see unit stats. So even if he didn't know they were receiving some kind of bonus from Charlie, he'd still see their boosted stats and assume that was the norm for them, since you don't see bonuses, you just see final stats. Recall that this is how Parson's leadership score was deduced, Stanley was able to see how much all unit's stats increased by.


It's how Parson deduced his own leadership score. Since he couldn't see his own stats. With the glasses, he can see levels of other units.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby abb3w » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:44 am

0beron wrote:
holy_dwead wrote:Didn't notice that Doombat, thanks for pointing it out. ... Predictomancy: Next page will be from the perspective of Transylvito. Don King will grieve his friend's death and explain how the duplicate works.

I wish! But I expect Don won't know there's a duplicate, he's gonna see the corpse and assume Jetstone has fallen. I hope he has the presence of mind to order the Doombat to look around and see the stack above, so that we do get some explanation about the Duplicate (of course, it could be a stretch to assume he knows any more about magic than most Rulers do, especially since he doesn't have a Dittomancer) Although Ben is a polymath, so maybe he will know.

Some of Benjamin Franklin's earliest jobs were as a printer and newspaper writer -- that is, a copy maker.

Off the top of my head, I can perhaps think of perhaps three comparable caliber polymaths in history. One of those had two centuries more shoulders for stepping stones (and was an incompetent experimentalist); another had two millennial fewer; and the last seems an overrated junior contemporary. If the RealWorld is a guide, certainly don't consider him infallible (see Madison's notes from the Constitutional convention); contrariwise, do not underestimate Ben.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby fractal » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:48 am

abb3w wrote:Some of Benjamin Franklin's earliest jobs were as a printer and newspaper writer -- that is, a copy maker.

Off the top of my head, I can perhaps think of perhaps three comparable caliber polymaths in history. One of those had two centuries more shoulders for stepping stones (and was an incompetent experimentalist); another had two millennial fewer; and the last seems an overrated junior contemporary. If the RealWorld is a guide, certainly don't consider him infallible (see Madison's notes from the Constitutional convention); contrariwise, do not underestimate Ben.
Now I'm really curious who you think these "best" polymaths were.

A. ??? Too many possibilities, and none really seems to fit. (My girlfriend guesses Tesla.)
B. Aristotle or Archimedes?
C. Jefferson?

Also, what about da Vinci?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Messenger » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:12 am

Jay wrote:
Messenger wrote:Good news for Jetstone: IIRC, Wanda and the Arkenpliers are far, far away without an easy way to get back.

The portal is still open.. they have an easy way to get back.

(The closing portal was Jack's illusion)
Okay, but should Wanda and the others return to Jetstone at this point, given the tower's state of near collapse? ;)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:34 am

yuffiek wrote:It's pretty obvious from the dramatic shots in the last couple of comics, the fact that the 2nd Slately seemed to appear out of nowhere when he "pew pew'd" the Archon, and that duplicated units should de-pop immediately if croaked, that the real Slately is dead and the side is only being maintained by his doppelgänger.

So Spacerock is really in a time crunch, they have until Lloyd runs out of juice (he's probably running close to empty now, surely not enough to make it to end of turn) to earn enough bounty to promote Trammensis, and convince Clone-Slately to STOP fighting long enough to do it, since C-Slate doesn't realize he's just a copy.


In what sense is time going to crunch? The turn does not end (barring kingworld spell) until the monarch declares the turn over.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Althernai » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:51 am

the_tick_rules wrote:As for the double, it seems that--unless the original and double traded places upon casting--they were fighting the original all along and only managed to kill him the moment after his double popped nearby. At least that is the way it is drawn. When several people are watching you intently, it is hard for them to lose track of you, so it is unlikely the archons made that mistake. Also, the duplicate king's dialog seems to foreshadow his own coming tragedy as he discovers he is a (temporary?) duplicate.

Right. Also, consider Lloyd's behavior. In the last panel of page 79, he hesitates before answering the overlord. In the first panel of page 80, he is looking awfully glum for a guy who supposedly just saved his ruler. Finally, in panel 4 of page 80, he is looking down while everyone's attention is elsewhere.

That said, is the version of Slately that fell really dead, or is it just incapacitated? From the detailed description of how falling works in Erfworld, it seems quite possible that he survived.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Thoke » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:10 am

I too noticed that on panel 4. I bet Lloyd knows exactly what's going on and by the look on his face all is not very well...

EDIT: Maybe not all. He might looking down to search whether the Other King (original if you ask me) is still alive; to inform the healomancer, maybe?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:27 am

DoctorJest wrote:
0beron wrote:Alternatively, remember that all Command Units (including Parson with his glasses) can see unit stats. So even if he didn't know they were receiving some kind of bonus from Charlie, he'd still see their boosted stats and assume that was the norm for them, since you don't see bonuses, you just see final stats. Recall that this is how Parson's leadership score was deduced, Stanley was able to see how much all unit's stats increased by.

It's how Parson deduced his own leadership score. Since he couldn't see his own stats. With the glasses, he can see levels of other units.

Yeah....that's what I meant. My point still stands: if the Archons were receiving a bonus, he would see what their stats are WITh that bonus included. He wouldn't even have to know they were receiving a bonus, he'd know their final stats, which is enough for the bracer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby effataigus » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:43 am

Nnelg wrote:What 30 archons could have done was blitz the tower and assassinate the handful of units there, capturing the city...

DESPITE the fact that those same 30 archons could never hope to take on the hundreds of units that would be automatically captured when the garrison was taken.

MarbitChow wrote:px=%2F077a.jpg]According to his stupid meals[/url], he had 32 archers, 36 spidews (which may or may not have ranged web attacks), a few casters and a couple of air units. That's it. Everything else was melee, and fliers w/ ranged attacks can just pick them off at leisure.


You are both forgetting that to capture a city you have to capture the garrison, which consists of the tower, the "courtyard," and the dungeon. Also, GK can redeploy its troops between city zones off turn. Unless Parson is caught off-guard, he can bring all units anywhere within the city (its garrison, its walls, its tunnels, or its airspace) to bear upon archons trying to capture the city from the dungeon where archon flight (I assume) means nothing.

There is no chance of him being caught off guard after Charlie asked him for that calculation ;)

I think the more compelling argument is pointing out that GK didn't really have all THAT much in the way of forces at all at the time. They had quite a force true, but no hordes of ex-radishes.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby partywhipple » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:56 am

Only 4 pages of replies? Is everyone on vacation? :P

I totally didn't get the whole "Slately is actually dead" thing until reading here. I need more coffee.

I have to agree with the people who are saying the duplicate has a limited life span. The Dittomancer would be way to OP if he could make permanent copies.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby RichMan » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:35 pm

Althernai wrote:
the_tick_rules wrote:That said, is the version of Slately that fell really dead, or is it just incapacitated? From the detailed description of how falling works in Erfworld, it seems quite possible that he survived.


Ah but why did he fall? It is quite possible he died, and the flight ability is lost by units that die, so down he went. In this case fall damage makes no difference.

It did not seem like the attack on Ossimer where they removed the flight ability. I don't think there was anything specific to cause the fall.

-- edit
And I will thow in the effect word "REGEDIT" to not mean the Microsoft fixit tool. But rather retro-active edit. The "REGEDIT" was not the Archon attack spell but rather the dittomancer spell. The Archon's achieved the kill. Then the Dittomancer did "REGEDIT" to restore the King as a retroactive edit cast after his death to restore him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby KonradKnox » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:55 pm

Nnelg wrote:
Raza wrote:Still disappointed in the Archons. With Ossomer's leadership bonus gone, it feels like they should be doing much better. What happened to multicolored special effect disintegration rays, to veils and confounding tricks, to 'total battlespace saturation' where (these exact same) ~30 archons concentrated simultaneous shockamancy fire on a single mounted figure from across a capital airspace with 100% accuracy? These same units supposedly had a nigh-certain probability of capturing GK in TBFK, which had at least as much force left then as the JS flying group has now, and they didn't have a leadership bonus then, either.

Seems this round they're reducing to flying archer infantry with a flashy re-skin. They're missing a lot, doing low damage when they hit, and generally dusting at the slightest touch from inferior units.

Ok, because so many people follow the logic "30 archons could take GK in one turn, so archons must be super-ultra-mega-powerful uber-units", I've gotten fed up and am going to rant about it.


At the time Parson did his math thing, the vast majority of his units were on the walls -leaving the garrison with just a token force.

What 30 archons could have done was blitz the tower and assassinate the handful of units there, capturing the city...

DESPITE the fact that those same 30 archons could never hope to take on the hundreds of units that would be automatically captured when the garrison was taken.


The other 'proof' of their accredited badassness is the frame in which we first see them in action.

First, the beams looking brighter and bigger than have recently been could just be a function of changing art style and/or deliberate flashiness.

Second, always hitting... MUST I give a lecture on how probability works?

Finally, as those dwagons only had a bit of health left, even a cherry tap would be all but guaranteed to croak them.



Archons could also just be less effective under Wanda's command than they were under Charlie. Who knows what bonuses and abilities the Archons had when they were under the wing of Charlie's Arkendish. Maybe they had some sort of thinkamancy combination link up that boosted their powers? Don't know.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Nnelg » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:59 pm

effataigus wrote:
Nnelg wrote:What 30 archons could have done was blitz the tower and assassinate the handful of units there, capturing the city...

DESPITE the fact that those same 30 archons could never hope to take on the hundreds of units that would be automatically captured when the garrison was taken.

MarbitChow wrote:px=%2F077a.jpg]According to his stupid meals[/url], he had 32 archers, 36 spidews (which may or may not have ranged web attacks), a few casters and a couple of air units. That's it. Everything else was melee, and fliers w/ ranged attacks can just pick them off at leisure.


You are both forgetting that to capture a city you have to capture the garrison, which consists of the tower, the "courtyard," and the dungeon. Also, GK can redeploy its troops between city zones off turn. Unless Parson is caught off-guard, he can bring all units anywhere within the city (its garrison, its walls, its tunnels, or its airspace) to bear upon archons trying to capture the city from the dungeon where archon flight (I assume) means nothing.

There is no chance of him being caught off guard after Charlie asked him for that calculation ;)

I think the more compelling argument is pointing out that GK didn't really have all THAT much in the way of forces at all at the time. They had quite a force true, but no hordes of ex-radishes.

Why would they be attacking from the dungeon, instead of the tower? And once they had a hold of that, they could lay down suppressive fire to keep reinforcements from pouring in the courtyard, (you know, if they don't want to be slaughtered) effectively sealing off the garrison from any reinforcement (remember, Sizemore had sealed off the tunnels by this point). The first targets would be Parson & Maggie, and once they're gone there won't be anyone to recall the troops even.


RichMan wrote:And I will thow in the effect word "REGEDIT" to not mean the Microsoft fixit tool. But rather retro-active edit. The "REGEDIT" was not the Archon attack spell but rather the dittomancer spell. The Archon's achieved the kill. Then the Dittomancer did "REGEDIT" to restore the King as a retroactive edit cast after his death to restore him.

But he's a Dittomancer, not a Retconjurer!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby GJC » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:08 pm

effataigus wrote:
Nnelg wrote:What 30 archons could have done was blitz the tower and assassinate the handful of units there, capturing the city...

DESPITE the fact that those same 30 archons could never hope to take on the hundreds of units that would be automatically captured when the garrison was taken.

MarbitChow wrote:px=%2F077a.jpg]According to his stupid meals[/url], he had 32 archers, 36 spidews (which may or may not have ranged web attacks), a few casters and a couple of air units. That's it. Everything else was melee, and fliers w/ ranged attacks can just pick them off at leisure.


You are both forgetting that to capture a city you have to capture the garrison, which consists of the tower, the "courtyard," and the dungeon. Also, GK can redeploy its troops between city zones off turn. Unless Parson is caught off-guard, he can bring all units anywhere within the city (its garrison, its walls, its tunnels, or its airspace) to bear upon archons trying to capture the city from the dungeon where archon flight (I assume) means nothing.

There is no chance of him being caught off guard after Charlie asked him for that calculation ;)

I think the more compelling argument is pointing out that GK didn't really have all THAT much in the way of forces at all at the time. They had quite a force true, but no hordes of ex-radishes.


Eeeh. Big Eeeeeeh.

They had something like 600 mid- and high-level infantry, even before Wanda got uncroakin'.
I can't believe that 28 archons could take that kind of force in a city fight. Not unless infantry are way, way weaker than I thought.

No, I think the Archons' capability to take the city stemmed from the fact that Parson had deployed all that infantry, and probably quite a few heavies as well, on the walls. Walls that the Archons could bypass. They didn't have to fight his army. Maybe a few Spidews in the dungeons and Hobgobwin knights in the tower and garrison, but the impression that I got was that they could just circumvent the majority of GK's forces alltogether.

Yes, Parson can redeploy. But, as we saw in Spacerock, that takes time. If Tramemnis could have instantly redeployed his entire army to the atrium, Wanda would not have survived, period. She would have been murdered by Artemis and her dozen knights. But she didn't. Because redeploying units in a city takes time. By the time the infantry had managed to get off the walls and into the garrison or dungeon, the city might have already been lost. Or, hell, maybe Parson wouldn't even have survived long enough to give the order. As alert as you say Parson must have been, when the turn started and Charlie came calling, Parson was sitting at the very top of the tower. Right next to an open balcony. With archons in his airspace. If Charlie had decided to attack, Archons could have gotten both him and Maggie without a problem. Capture or croak, Charlie's choice. We know that they're good at eliminating high-value targets. Then, with GK utterly devoid of warlords and without a chief, their forces in disarray, one squad of Archons coulda fought their way through the tower while another squad hit the garrison directly. They take a few casualties fighting the forces that Parson left there, prolly mostly the Knights and Spidews he was keeping in reserve, then take the dungeons before anyone can really do anything. Boom, all of GK's forces shackled, city belongs to Charlie.

The fact that they could have taken the city doesn't make them shock troops. It doesn't mean that Charlie was giving them any sort of bonus, because I'd expect even Wanda-led archons to be able to fight a few knights and some cavalry.

I'm not saying that Charlie wasn't giving them a bonus, but I don't think this specific situation is proof of one. These were high-level archons (presumably, because they had multiple specials) who didn't have to fight anything but a few reserve troops. And honestly, I figure that if a connection to the Arkendish empowered them, Parson woulda heard about it when he talked to them.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby effataigus » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:28 pm

GJC wrote:They had something like 600 mid- and high-level infantry, even before Wanda got uncroakin'.
I can't believe that 28 archons could take that kind of force in a city fight. Not unless infantry are way, way weaker than I thought.


Careful! Replace weaker infantry with stronger archons, and you'll be agreeing with Raza :D This discussion is kinda a soupy mess of unclear bonuses and stats though. There's enough room for multiple opinions here, I think. I'm just arguing that the calculation wouldn't have neglected to consider any of the units still within GK.

GJC wrote:... tactical analysis...


Beats me whether you're right that that approach would have worked better than others. However, your approach relies upon GK having troops fixed in the exact places that they were. Since Parson had the option to change troop distribution between the calculation and that the start of Charlescomm's turn (consider that he moved Maggie and himself from the courtyard to the tower), the calculation could not have been relying upon that specific distribution. I'm guessing it would instead assume that Parson has deployed his troops to fight off the assault.

I don't view Spacerock as a reliable indicator of how quickly troops can move when required. Slately wasted huge gobs of time chatting with all of his current and former BFFs. Nevertheless, I admit that I can think of no clear estimate of exactly how quickly troops can move between zones when required. It is clearly not instantaneous as you say. I'm just betting that troops can be withdrawn to defend faster than troops can fight their way through resistance, even if you do assume one specific troop distribution and account for the fact that archons have a proven ability to put the beats down hard and fast.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby GJC » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:52 pm

Since Parson had the option to change troop distribution between the calculation and that the start of Charlescomm's turn (consider that he moved Maggie and himself from the courtyard to the tower), the calculation could not have been relying upon that specific distribution. I'm guessing it would instead assume that Parson has deployed his troops to fight off the assault.

Nah, why would it? The question wasn't "Can 14 Archons kill off your army?". The question was "Can 14 Archons take your garrison". A garrison which was, at the time, woefully undefended. The bracer is capable of some pretty abstract figuring. I think it'd take the situation into account, and then account for the behaviors of both sides. GK's behavior being to attempt to withdraw to the garrison, Charlescomm's behavior being to take said garrison as quickly as possible.

Edit: And in regards to this, I guess the bracer just correctly predicted that Parson wouldn't move his toops. We've already seen the bracer predict the future, this seems piddly compared to the "Is it worth it to give up my calculations in return for this bit of info".

I'm just betting that troops can be withdrawn to defend faster than troops can fight their way through resistance, even if you do assume one specific troop distribution and account for the fact that archons have a proven ability to put the beats down hard and fast.


Well, let's see. On the one hand we have a mass of infantry that has to climb down from a set of fortifications and cross a courtyard before they can really do anything, and even after crossing the courtyard, they have to get back into the garrison through a few doorways that're, by now, probably controlled by Archons.

On the other hand, we've got agile, flying units who can hit both the tower and the courtyard in short order. They're up against a good bit of opposition, but mostly from high-value units, which they are very good at incapacitating, if not killing outright. They're in an excellent position to eliminate the enemy chief warlord, possibly without even giving him an opportunity to command his troops, and even if he did manage to get orders off, it'd be something hasty like "withdraw to the garrison!", which definitely wouldn't be conductive.

Honestly, at most, I think the dungeons would be a problem, since Sizemore could probably get a few golems in there, but infantry? Even if they maneuver and engage in time, they wouldn't be in a position where they can use their numbers to their advantage. Just a bad situation for GK, I feel.

And in regards to my estimates for GK's and Charlescomm's unit level, we're explicitely told that a lot of GK's stuff is mid- and high-level. With Charlescomm I'm assuming, because we saw quite a few archons with multiple specials, which is generally an indicator of high level.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby ftl » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:36 pm

About the Archons:

Even the 'real-time' combat in Erfworld SEEMS to proceed in sort of a turn-based fashion. One side gets their hits, then the other side.

Here - the archons struck first, and took out Slately's Cloak.
Slately's side struck back, and pew-pewed an archon.
The archons closed in, hitting an Orly, a unipegataur, and all together dusting Ossomer.
Slately pew-pewed one more archon.
The archons Regedited away Slately, leaving a duplicate.
Slately pew-pews two more archons.
Then there's some skirmishing between archons and unipegataurs in the background, which we don't see the details of; Ace joins in and captures one.

Remember, the Archons started with the instructions to "hit the leadership", and that's exactly what they did! They took out Ossomer AND one copy of Slately. The King and the highest-level Warlord in airspace. Of course, it wasn't enough, because there were also casters there, and the Dittomancer saved their hide, but still.

I think they acquitted themselves pretty well here.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby Nnelg » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:03 am

ftl wrote:Even the 'real-time' combat in Erfworld SEEMS to proceed in sort of a turn-based fashion. One side gets their hits, then the other side.

Hm, an interesting notion. It could be that this is actually some subtle background mechanic of Erfworld physics, or it could be narrative bias. Or maybe both, who knows?

ftl wrote:I think they acquitted themselves pretty well here.

Right, I'm in agreement with you there. All told things could have easily gone a lot worse for the archons: if they were somehow blocked from dismounting Ossomer, the return fire would have decimated them. Instead they came an inch from winning the entire war in one stroke. I was only frustrated with the guys who were disappointed that archons weren't the übersoldatinen they expected.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 80

Postby multilis » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:40 am

One real world computer game that is similar to Erfword is "Age of Wonders".

On earlier versions, there were some units that were nearly invincible in certain situations, eg flying units with ranged attack and units with physical immunity. As a result there were some situations where a single unit could defeat an entire powerful army that lacked a way to counter attack.

(Send in a flying archer and some mage heroes, the mages cast spells to wipe out the enemy archers then retreat, the single archer wipes out rest of units including super-strong ones without ranged attack)

Game was improved/bug fixed: for example most ranged flying units only have limited number of shots.

That may be case here, archons may only have a limited number of ranged shots so that a single archon can't wipe out a massive army that lacks ranged attackers in 1 turn. (We already see that archers have limited number of arrows and mages can only cast limited number of spells per turn)
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