Summer Updates - 044

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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby imgran » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:14 pm

slb wrote:Per your strange logic then, being asleep and eating should also be closely reserved. That's the funniest explanation I've been given to justify the sex taboo in our civilization :D


And they aren't, in your opinion? It might be different in France, but most people are very careful where and when they choose to sleep and what, where and how they choose to eat, preferring secure and trusted venues for both events. Of course, you people have all those biological lab experiments you like to pretend to call "cheese" so it might actually BE different there. :D

I'm still sure you mostly prefer to sleep behind closed doors and likely prefer the right to lock them from the inside, even if you don't actually exercise that right.

You probably missed all the posts in this thread about animals having sex not for a reproductive purpose. Also the higher on the food chain a mammal is, the longer and more frequents are their ruts, compare the matting duration of a rabbit and a lion. Oh, and BTW, the human being is on the top of the food chain ..


Doesn't invalidate his point. :

1: Even if you allow for recreational sex the purpose of procreation is still reproduction (much like the purpose of eating is sustaining life, but we all do like a good bit of chocolate!)
2: Careful selection of partners is still a wiser course of action than the alternative
3: When done incautiosuly sex is a high-risk, high-vulnerability behavior.
4: You know all this and are engaging in moral relativism for its own sake so please stop.
As if the driver for sex in our societies was still linked to the urge of reproduction, or people having sex were relating to it :roll: ! You seem to have forgotten the "mind complexity" you were speaking about earlier. Between your reptile brain and the homo sapiens mind there are heaps of cultural sophistication, memes, traditions, education, etc ... How could you seriously think that this reptile brain would trump the social stigma about rape on the victim ?


Do you think you have to? Are you aware just how many of our memes and whims are affected by reptile-brain reactions? These are not opposing forces. They are PARTS OF YOU. neither has to trump the other, they are both just THERE. Each part affects the whole mind and the whole mind affects every thought in society.

Or did you really think that just because the stigma on sexual abuse was a phenomenon of society it had no other basis? That is a very ridiculous assumption.

Rape is far worse than ordinary physical abuse. The first and most obvious reason is the possibility of "the worst case scenario." Not too many rapists are going to agree to use protection or allow a woman to do so. Sexually transmitted diseases and pregnancy are both possibilities. The possibility of creating a "child of rape" so greatly compounds the tragedy of rape itself that there is no comparison to all but the most brutal tortures

Speaking of tortures and physical abuse, there is very often some form of sexual element involved in even relatively mudane abuses. For example, the problems in Abu Ghraib where abusive soldiers attacked the pride of prisoners through demeaning their sexuality. Also prisoners of the Hussein regime frequently told stories of sexual abuse to go along with torture and injury. it is a way to get through the defenses of otherwise strong people for exactly the reasons you're ridiculing.

In any case, if you stick to your logic you will probably at least agree with me that rape is not specifically different from any other kind of abuse in Erfworld since it is not related to reproduction. :mrgreen:


You do realize there's little actual evidence that sex is or is not related to reproduction/popping in Erfworld. There just has been no definite confirmation that there is a connection.

You are overselling your point and doing it in an irritating, slightly dishonest way. Please stop.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Darkside007 » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:51 pm

Spot wrote:
moose o death wrote:the press is plenty free enough...


Um, no. You're Australian. Your press is owned by a few large corporations, with intertwined boards of directors and management staff.

As an example, the company-published, and company-distributed employee newsletter found in the break room of an oil refinery, has about a zero percent chance of containing content deemed detrimental to the interests of the refinery's management.


Image

I mean, uh, really? Is this serious? Or are you, in fact, sarcastic?
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby mutecebu » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:10 pm

Gah, I knew this would happen. I'll summarize:
Some people are shocked at the sexual content, and the moral questions of free will
Some people are shocked that the former people are shocked
The two have disagreeing views on the matter

Back to the discussion of the wonderful story:
I never imagined Maggie would say, "What, seriously?" Parson must be rubbing off on her.

Incidentally, after Maggie kept calling Parson Lord, I couldn't help but think of the hilariously misleading adds for a very boring browser game
Last edited by mutecebu on Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:15 pm

Darkside007 wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:Personally, I wouldn't want a kingdom with 1000 soldiers (for instance) if I gave them all free will and the option not to fight.

If another 1000 soldiers from another side came to attack, my soldiers would most likely run away, and I wouldnt' have a kingdom any more.

Me: "Stand and fight and die!"

1000 soldiers: "Uhmmm....do I have to?"

Me: "No, but it's sure be great for -me- if you did."

"Ok, well then. I'm going to slip out the back. Been nice knowing you! Thanks for all the fish!"


Doesn't happen that way. You'd start with 1000, lose 10-25%, and then curbstomp the enemy because each of your men is fighting for themselves, while the enemy is fighting because they have too.



I don't know what set of rules or reality you are making that statement from, but if I were King, I'd sure -hope- it went that way. That'd be great if it did.

I'd put a lot of effort into hoping and praying that they all were motivated enough to stay, motivated enough to fight and die for me, that they all loved me and wanted me to be king and were cool being my free-willed subjects.

That'd be great if they all would stay and fight for 'themselves'.

I'd give whoever was left of them an extra apple when turn ended.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby mutecebu » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:17 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:I once heard a Vietnam war veteran speak about his experience.

He first tried to enlist in such a way so as to avoid frontline duty, so he he signed on as an artillery man. However, as US troops began to withdraw more and more, he was assigned to a large piece of artillery (I think it was a howitzer, but I'm not sure) with a small squandron of men in Vietnam. To defend the piece, Vietamese regulars were assigned. Instead of going on patrols, these soldiers would wander off and smoke or gamble or otherwise not protect the artillery. This veteran became concerned that the defensive position could be compromised. So, he decided to start his own patrols for the defense of the base. Such patrols could become dangerous in the presence of ambush and almost certainly more dangerous than sitting behind fortified walls. Himself and other lieutenants gathered all the American soldiers together and explained the situation. They ended by saying they did not want to order anyone to do the possibly dangerous patrols and were only asking for volunteers. Every single soldier raised his hand to be on these patrols.

My point is that even when given complete freedom soldiers can and do take risks of combat for rewards they feel are worth it. And Parson can do an OK St. Crispus speech to get level of result.
Good stuff. Go troops. I think the big difference is the troops were fighting for an ideal, as opposed to someone else's success. However, Duty may be an Erfworld equivalent, but then you must ask: is Parson's "duty" to Lord Stanely free will...
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Phædrus2129 » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:24 pm

Umm... Why do we want to make Erfworld more like our world when trying to figure out the whole free will deal? Last I checked, there were no instances of theft, vandalism, abuse,or any crimes at all within a kingdom. If Parson does take over the world, it would literally be utopia.



Utopia is BORING. Seriously, there's more to life than eating, sleeping, and fucking. People need something to make them feel good about themselves, and stories and songs to live by. To be honest, I'd rather live in the pre-Parson Erfworld than one in which he has conquered the world. Not sure about the in-between phase. And I'd rather live on good ol' Earth than any of those choices.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby imgran » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:39 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:
Darkside007 wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:Personally, I wouldn't want a kingdom with 1000 soldiers (for instance) if I gave them all free will and the option not to fight.

If another 1000 soldiers from another side came to attack, my soldiers would most likely run away, and I wouldnt' have a kingdom any more.

Me: "Stand and fight and die!"

1000 soldiers: "Uhmmm....do I have to?"

Me: "No, but it's sure be great for -me- if you did."

"Ok, well then. I'm going to slip out the back. Been nice knowing you! Thanks for all the fish!"


Doesn't happen that way. You'd start with 1000, lose 10-25%, and then curbstomp the enemy because each of your men is fighting for themselves, while the enemy is fighting because they have too.



I don't know what set of rules or reality you are making that statement from, but if I were King, I'd sure -hope- it went that way. That'd be great if it did.

I'd put a lot of effort into hoping and praying that they all were motivated enough to stay, motivated enough to fight and die for me, that they all loved me and wanted me to be king and were cool being my free-willed subjects.

That'd be great if they all would stay and fight for 'themselves'.

I'd give whoever was left of them an extra apple when turn ended.


Probably better to spend that time WORKING YOUR ROAL BUTT OFF AND ORGANIZING A SOCIETY WORTH FIGHTING FOR wouldn't you say?

A lot of people miss the two way nature of the relationship of Royals and ruled. A whole heck of a lot of Royals did. The best Kings might enjoy their privelleges but they mostly treated the throne as an office from which to work -- hard -- to maintain the society they were placed in charge of. That was the model that King David and King Soloman left us and the reason they tend to be the archetype of a good ruler.

If you're left HOPING your soldiers are willing to defend you, you obviously haven't done enough work.

Even in Erfworld, taking actions designed to increase morale and loyalty is probably an intelligent thing to do.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Skyer » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:57 pm

@Phædrus2129

So, if Parson takes over the world, and makes it all perfect and nice, and people get bored, will they then begin playing tactical wargames (possibly in real-time somehow) and eventually one of them will get so good that s/he is summoned by a Summon Perfect Warlord spell from another place where...

Recursing is fun.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby shadowdemon » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:06 am

I gotta agree here. The best leaders (in any situation) earn the privileges they enjoy by being willing to work as hard and long as is required for whatever they are trying to do. Ideally they should be doing a job no one else could, and doing it well. They also don't shove the extra privileges they get in the faces of their underlings, letting them be tacit rather then explicit. This of course would be the problem with Stanley, arguably any of his underlings could do his job better then him, he's lazy, and he abuses his privileges as overlord. This man quite clearly belongs on the front lines as a warlord rocking out at the head of a squadron of Dwagons laying waste to the country side. He'd probably be happier there as well.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby OneHugeTuck » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:19 am

shadowdemon wrote:I gotta agree here. The best leaders (in any situation) earn the privileges they enjoy by being willing to work as hard and long as is required for whatever they are trying to do. Ideally they should be doing a job no one else could, and doing it well. They also don't shove the extra privileges they get in the faces of their underlings, letting them be tacit rather then explicit. This of course would be the problem with Stanley, arguably any of his underlings could do his job better then him, he's lazy, and he abuses his privileges as overlord. This man quite clearly belongs on the front lines as a warlord rocking out at the head of a squadron of Dwagons laying waste to the country side. He'd probably be happier there as well.


imgran wrote:Probably better to spend that time WORKING YOUR ROAL BUTT OFF AND ORGANIZING A SOCIETY WORTH FIGHTING FOR wouldn't you say?

A lot of people miss the two way nature of the relationship of Royals and ruled. A whole heck of a lot of Royals did. The best Kings might enjoy their privelleges but they mostly treated the throne as an office from which to work -- hard -- to maintain the society they were placed in charge of. That was the model that King David and King Soloman left us and the reason they tend to be the archetype of a good ruler.

If you're left HOPING your soldiers are willing to defend you, you obviously haven't done enough work.

Even in Erfworld, taking actions designed to increase morale and loyalty is probably an intelligent thing to do.



You are both talking about leaders on Earth.

Erfworld rulers don't have to do that. Earth leaders have to hope their followers do what they are supposed to do. Erfworld leaders DON'T.

It is probably smart for Erfrulers to do things to boost loyalty and such. But this at best increases stats, motivation, and results.

You are both comparing what I said to Earth rulers. There is no comparison. Erfrulers command and their units obey no matter how big an ass or saint they are.

As I was commenting on the topic of Erfunits being granted free will, I stick with my belief that any Erfruler would think it a CRAZY F#<>!^G IDEA to grant their units free will.

And I stick with if that I was a ruler who suddenly had an entire side of free willed units and there were an opposing force outside the walls, I would HOPE that my troops would stay.

Powerful stories from vietnam notwithstanding, as a ruler I would be worried. As a suddenly free willed unit, I'd have to wonder why the f I should stay and fight and possibly die.

MAYBE they'd suddenly be loyal to everything and 'their' kingdom. As the ruler I'd sure hope so. As a unit facing an opposing army, I'd have to give that some thought. Maybe I'd rather take my chances living in the woods, living by my own free will and skills and smarts and fortitude.

You seem to be assuming that they get free will and they suddenly become human. What your saying points at that, to me at least.


Diverging a little, there is also the question whether Parson could even actually grant free will by ordering it. If erfworld mechanics = units are designed to obey and follow orders, ordering them to be free willed would possibly at best force them to start learning to and acting as if they had free will, but they would still be following the order.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby yay » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:25 am

i tried to read all the posts, but... 16 pages... sorry if someone has had the same idea

i really hope maggie DOES NOT have a crush on parson, or vice versa. she is a little person, and she looks old. thats some creepy fetish right there*. i don't see parson getting laid anytime soon. it just doesn't seem in character for him, because he is detached from the world he is in. if another person from our little portion of the multiverse heads on over to Erfworld, he might be persuaded to, ahem, unsheath his broadsword. otherwise, he'll probably just test drive his battering ram with a five unit stack.

we don't know what erf sex actually consist of. the only examples (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F048.jpg & http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F073.jpg) consist of nudity on the part of wanda & laying on top of one another. Erf sex could be something relativly innocent, like hugging or looking at each other. end result is parsons first attempt would be hilariously awckward. (this was posted late at night and may make no sense to anyone, even me, tommorow morning)

*(according to the laws of the internet, there is now at least now one website dedicated to feaky old midget sex. i'm so sorry)
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Danetrix » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:38 am

I'm more of the opinion Maggie's eyes flashed oddly, not as a suggestive/hitting on way, but more as she was remembering something. And in this context, something to do with sex. Maybe ordered by her, or to her.

I don't think she'd be one to engage in the physical act. It seems that "linking" (which etched closely towards some kind of mentalsex, IMO.) would be closer to what she would want to do.

And I doubt Maggie is actually "busy", but trying to get him with an Archon unit, to see how he would handle the situation.

And yeah, haven't we had enough proof that normal units have barely any free will of their own and what they do have can be overwritten on the whims of their rulers?
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Spot » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:55 am

Darkside007 wrote:
Spot wrote:
moose o death wrote:the press is plenty free enough...


Um, no. You're Australian. Your press is owned by a few large corporations, with intertwined boards of directors and management staff.

As an example, the company-published, and company-distributed employee newsletter found in the break room of an oil refinery, has about a zero percent chance of containing content deemed detrimental to the interests of the refinery's management.


Image

I mean, uh, really? Is this serious? Or are you, in fact, sarcastic?




The discussions about the last few updates to Erfworld have mostly centered around free-will, freedom of choice, the concept of people mentally-programmed to obey their masters, and the idea that certain types of free thought that Earth folks take for granted would never even occur to an Erfworlder.

I would gently and politely suggest, that if someone had somehow managed to define words in another person's mind in such a manner that the phrase "free press" is synonymous in that person's mind with a collection of corporate public relations press releases... then perhaps these discussions about free-will and mental-programming are highly relevant to that situation.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby moose o death » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:27 am

trust me. our media is free enough. if they weren't they certainly wouldn't be reporting on our glorious leader abusing his staff for...

his hair dryer (he doesn't even have much)
abusing flight staff because his meal wasn't vegetarian
his trips to strip joints while in the US

his wife getting plastic surgery
his wife's corporation taking adavntage of unfair workplace laws from the previous government

shall i continue? these were national news items.

it then continues with the main news items which are the day to day trivialities of the land itself trying to kill us off. constant drought, floods (seriously we get BOTH) fires, cyclones, electrical storms. drought is so bad in the southern states we may soon have lakes of acid or akaline. it's a long complicated process involving mud becoming one or the other. i vaguely recall it being sulfur based. when water finally does enter the areas that it happened in and floods it. the acid/akaline dilutes into the water and will mean alot of death to the wildlife.

and anyone dumb enough to swim in water full of dead birds/fish
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Emaria » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:45 am

Moose, you forgot the massive dust storms that turn the sky red for hours and leave crap all over everything :D
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Sixty » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:00 am

There's so much that can kill you in Australia. How many poisonous animals do you guys have again?
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby teratorn » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:41 am

I'd rather not enter into this freewill discussion until I know more about the archons. Who knows, maybe the poor things are wondering why the Chief warlord doesn't seek their "company," they might even feel rejected.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:10 am

Sixty wrote:There's so much that can kill you in Australia. How many poisonous animals do you guys have again?


Hmmm, add together the poisonous varieties of snakes, spiders, insects and various sea creatures... ah, lots.

In fact we even have one of the few poisonous mammals in the animal world - the male platypus (ok, it is actually a monotreme, an egg laying mammal).

Still, not that many people die due to poisonous bites or stings.

moose o death wrote:trust me. our media is free enough.


And when they do display evidence of poor ethics (or just poor reporting and journalistic skills) Media Watch is there to give them a serve.

multilis wrote:
I'd rather not enter into this freewill discussion until I know more about the archons. Who knows, maybe the poor things are wondering why the Chief warlord doesn't seek their "company," they might even feel rejected.
For all we know an archon likes Parson and *asked* Maggie, perhaps the one who stuck out tongue at him during the battle.

I agree to early to guess well about the freewill of decrypted.


Or the Archon that was filming him while crashing a dragon.

But if that were the case Maggie should be pointing him towards the interested Archon then, think how hurt her feelings will be if he ended up with another. :cry:

And I agree about the decrypted as well.
Last edited by Dancing Cthulhu on Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby multilis » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:10 am

I'd rather not enter into this freewill discussion until I know more about the archons. Who knows, maybe the poor things are wondering why the Chief warlord doesn't seek their "company," they might even feel rejected.
For all we know an archon likes Parson and *asked* Maggie, perhaps the one who stuck out tongue at him during the battle.

I agree that it is too early to guess well about the freewill of decrypted.
Last edited by multilis on Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby multilis » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:32 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:In fact we even have one of the few poisonous mammals in the animal world - the male platypus.

The venom of platypus is identical to venom of snake, yet that was not inherited from a common ancestor.
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