Summer Updates - 044

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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Gez » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:41 am

Darkside007 wrote:But there's really no need for such empty aggression.

The "in your country (that's not even actually your country, but nevermind that), people aren't really free because you've got a soviet monarchy over there; but in MY country TRUE FREEDOM is real" kind of comment can elicit either a sarcastic one-liner or a long digression explaining to you how wrong you are. This thread doesn't need to be derailed, so you get the former. Let's just say that if you saw, say, a Brazilian telling a Swiss that he's an American and therefore mind-controlled by the FBI, you'd probably have a snarky response as well.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby KiltedNinja » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:17 am

*backs away from the thread... slowly...*
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...I'm still holding out for the Arkenoid...
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby moose o death » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:27 am

multilis wrote:
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:In fact we even have one of the few poisonous mammals in the animal world - the male platypus.

The venom of platypus is identical to venom of snake, yet that was not inherited from a common ancestor.

i honestly hate when conversations get to the australian thing. i steer well clear of irc's because of that.

the animals are all crazy weird mutants...which you'll basicly never ever see unless you live here or visit a zoo.

except on fraser island. american tourists love to feed their children to our wild dogs. then go home and make fun of us. strange people
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Justyn » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:38 am

Getting rid of this: talked with Moose over a PM, and he gave me information that I didn't know beforehand and that invalidated everything I said here. Again, sorry Moose.
Last edited by Justyn on Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:13 am

multilis wrote:
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:In fact we even have one of the few poisonous mammals in the animal world - the male platypus.

The venom of platypus is identical to venom of snake, yet that was not inherited from a common ancestor.


Careful there - we've already got Sex and Politics (International Relations) running amok in this thread.
That statement could start an evolution tangent, which might bring out creationists, bringing Religion into this thread
This would complete the Unholy Trinity of Topics That Are Not Polite To Discuss, and cause this thread to immediately get locked, everyone posting in it sent to our rooms, and baby penguins and otters to start crying! :D
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby teratorn » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:24 am

Justyn wrote:Evidently, I was wrong; I'm sorry for misjudging you.


Come on, it was just a joke, I thought there's no way moose could have been taken seriously. Where's your sense of humor? Jeez guys, lighten up.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Gez » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:54 am

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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby imgran » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:57 am

You are both talking about leaders on Earth.

Erfworld rulers don't have to do that. Earth leaders have to hope their followers do what they are supposed to do. Erfworld leaders DON'T.


Actually they do. Units can Turn, and low Loyalty units are easier to Turn. So whatever actions you might take the increase the loyalty of your units becomes intelligent. It's a watered down version of the same principle as Earth government. Like much of Erfworld.
It is probably smart for Erfrulers to do things to boost loyalty and such. But this at best increases stats, motivation, and results.


No, at best it makes your Warlords far less likely to change sides in the middle of the battle. We HAVE seen a unit turn (Wanda), although she did it for a special reason. We don't know the mechanics of Turning so assuming it's a trivial risk is unwise.

As I was commenting on the topic of Erfunits being granted free will, I stick with my belief that any Erfruler would think it a CRAZY F#<>!^G IDEA to grant their units free will.


Of course they would, but that doesn't mean they're right. Much of it has to do with being unwilling to release power once you have it even when it can be proven to be to your benefit (or at least, to less of a detriment than other courses of action). Much like the Southern slaveholders didn't want to release their slaves, but the economic impact of fighting a war to keep them is worse than simply releasing them and paying them a wage would have been.

And I stick with if that I was a ruler who suddenly had an entire side of free willed units and there were an opposing force outside the walls, I would HOPE that my troops would stay.

Powerful stories from vietnam notwithstanding, as a ruler I would be worried. As a suddenly free willed unit, I'd have to wonder why the f I should stay and fight and possibly die.


And I maintain that if all you're doing is HOPING for loyalty, you're doing it wrong. Loyalty is something that is developed, it's not just there and it doesn't stay if it isn't maintained.

Even in an Erfworld format, we know Loyalty is a stat and higher Loyalty has a benefit. Having the willing loyalty of your troops is likely a better arrangement than having the compulsory loyalty of your troops. In fact I imagine that there are a few small, well-motivated sides out there even in the current state of Erfworld that can hold much larger states at bay with a small, well-motivated army. From Jillian's backstory one of the problems of Faq that made it easy for Stanley to trash the place was that the soldiers and warlords were weakly led and unmotivated.

I imagine that even Faq could hold off a medium-sized flight of Dwagons if it was at full strength with competent, confident and loyal warlords leading well-motivated men. The added bonuses make a difference.





MAYBE they'd suddenly be loyal to everything and 'their' kingdom. As the ruler I'd sure hope so. As a unit facing an opposing army, I'd have to give that some thought. Maybe I'd rather take my chances living in the woods, living by my own free will and skills and smarts and fortitude.

You seem to be assuming that they get free will and they suddenly become human. What your saying points at that, to me at least.


Even if they aren't, thanks to the Wrigley update we know they think at least a little bit. That means there IS a way to win the hearts and minds of the Pikers and Stabbers. Anything that has enough of a mind to imagine can be motivated by SOMETHING. Even Wrigley would have fought to the death to save his spear.

Diverging a little, there is also the question whether Parson could even actually grant free will by ordering it. If erfworld mechanics = units are designed to obey and follow orders, ordering them to be free willed would possibly at best force them to start learning to and acting as if they had free will, but they would still be following the order.
[/quote]

that's another question. I don't know how thoroughly Parson can break things. I think it'd take at least a full generation of Erfworld before anything he did had a real impact beyond exploiting the existing rules.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby imgran » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:04 am

multilis wrote:
I'd rather not enter into this freewill discussion until I know more about the archons. Who knows, maybe the poor things are wondering why the Chief warlord doesn't seek their "company," they might even feel rejected.
For all we know an archon likes Parson and *asked* Maggie, perhaps the one who stuck out tongue at him during the battle.

I agree that it is too early to guess well about the freewill of decrypted.


Actually we know that their free will has been suborned in one key area -- the forced loyalty to the wielder of the Arkenpliers. We can't guess well perhaps, but we can make a pretty educated guess about what would happen if Wanda told them to do something they ordinarily wouldn't have wanted to do. They are either compelled to do it anyway, or are even compelled to want to do it. Both serious threats to free will.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby build6 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:12 am

yay wrote:*(according to the laws of the internet, there is now at least now one website dedicated to feaky old midget sex. i'm so sorry)


damn you! so it was your fault!
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby joosy » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:23 am

Justyn wrote:
moose o death wrote:except on fraser island. american tourists love to feed their children to our wild dogs. then go home and make fun of us. strange people


You know, before you said that, I had attributed the disagreements we had had as cultural differences, but this comment of yours has shown me the truth of the matter: this isn't a matter of cultural dissonance, you're just a jerk. I had had geniune respect for the fact that you have beliefs, and stuck to them; that's conviction, and it's commendable. Even people who disagree with the beliefs respect the conviction it takes to hold them. But now, I've simply lost any and all respect I had had for you, Moose.

I'm... disappointed in you Moose, I thought that you were above saying this kind of offensive drivel, and for seemingly no other point than to put down and to offend others. I had though you were a better person than this. Evidently, I was wrong; I'm sorry for misjudging you.



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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby moose o death » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:21 pm

well someone got the reference. someone else didn't.

can we stop discussing aus now? i only brought up aspects of it to counter points made by kasavin and it rolled out of control from there.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Roszlishan » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:06 pm

I think all that can be said has been ...

it's all reiteration or off-topic from here.

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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Sixty » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:40 pm

Sorry for getting us a little off topic there with the question about poisonous animals.

To stay on topic, I have a thought about loyalty. Everyone says it is an invisible unknownable stat but are sure it exists. What if it's not a stat at all but functions like real loyalty would on Earth but since everything else on Erf IS stat based everyone there assumes it too must be a stat? This was just something I wondered as I was reading the new posts so I obviously haven't put a huge amount of thought into it. I'm sure you could think of something to disprove.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby OneHugeTuck » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:55 pm

Justyn wrote:
moose o death wrote:except on fraser island. american tourists love to feed their children to our wild dogs. then go home and make fun of us. strange people


You know, before you said that, I had attributed the disagreements we had had as cultural differences, but this comment of yours has shown me the truth of the matter: this isn't a matter of cultural dissonance, you're just a jerk. I had had geniune respect for the fact that you have beliefs, and stuck to them; that's conviction, and it's commendable. Even people who disagree with the beliefs respect the conviction it takes to hold them. But now, I've simply lost any and all respect I had had for you, Moose.

I'm... disappointed in you Moose, I thought that you were above saying this kind of offensive drivel, and for seemingly no other point than to put down and to offend others. I had though you were a better person than this. Evidently, I was wrong; I'm sorry for misjudging you.



That's funny. It makes me like him more.

I was going to respond with 'I wish more Americans would do that!'.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:04 pm

multilis wrote:
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:In fact we even have one of the few poisonous mammals in the animal world - the male platypus.

The venom of platypus is identical to venom of snake, yet that was not inherited from a common ancestor.


Actually, this is incorrect. Unlike snake venom, it has no necrotic component, it is rarely fatal, it serves a defensive purpose of causing pain rather than a method of ensnaring prey through immobilization or death.
Also, it's a actually cocktail of several toxins, most of which are entirely unique to the platypus.

Platypus venom is unique to the platypus. It is not in any way, whatsoever, identical to snake venom, neither in composition nor in function.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby Lightbender » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:25 pm

Actually, this is incorrect. Unlike snake venom, it has no necrotic component, it is rarely fatal, it serves a defensive purpose of causing pain rather than a method of ensnaring prey through immobilization or death.
Also, it's a actually cocktail of several toxins, most of which are entirely unique to the platypus.


Both are incorrect, at least regarding snake venom. There are many different kinds of venoms used by snakes, depending on what type of snake you're referring to. Some of which are not necrotic but merely paralyze, others of which are necrotic.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:35 pm

Lightbender wrote:
Actually, this is incorrect. Unlike snake venom, it has no necrotic component, it is rarely fatal, it serves a defensive purpose of causing pain rather than a method of ensnaring prey through immobilization or death.
Also, it's a actually cocktail of several toxins, most of which are entirely unique to the platypus.


Both are incorrect, at least regarding snake venom. There are many different kinds of venoms used by snakes, depending on what type of snake you're referring to. Some of which are not necrotic but merely paralyze, others of which are necrotic.


Neither of which is true of the platypus.

I was pointing out that the platypus venom is not like snake venom at all, in that it is neither a.) necrotic (like some snake venom) nor b.) paralytic (like some snake venom). I didn't meant to imply that all snake venom is both necrotic and paralytic all the time. Just that platypus venom, unlike any snake venom, is neither. It is therefore unlike snake venom of any variety. I just felt it faster to list the qualities of snake venom in one list rather than itemize by type of venom just to point out the various ways that platypus venom is not like them.

However, the most important point is that the composition of platypus venom is chemically unique to the platypus and is not chemically identical to the venom of any other animal, regardless of it's effects or purpose.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby BillMcD » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:52 pm

slb wrote:Per your strange logic then, being asleep and eating should also be closely reserved. That's the funniest explanation I've been given to justify the sex taboo in our civilization :D


And sleeping often is 'closely reserved'. Animals tend not to sleep where they don't feel safe. They also tend to maintain a high level of alert while eating. Watch even semi-feral dogs or cats sometime, and you'll see it.

You probably missed all the posts in this thread about animals having sex not for a reproductive purpose. Also the higher on the food chain a mammal is, the longer and more frequents are their ruts, compare the matting duration of a rabbit and a lion. Oh, and BTW, the human being is on the top of the food chain ...


Nope, didn't miss a one. And it doesn't change anything, either. You'll note I didn't say that drive for safety only occurred when rutting for procreative purposes. It's always there, because the act is always one involving vulnerability.

As if the driver for sex in our societies was still linked to the urge of reproduction, or people having sex were relating to it :roll: ! You seem to have forgotten the "mind complexity" you were speaking about earlier. Between your reptile brain and the homo sapiens mind there are heaps of cultural sophistication, memes, traditions, education, etc ... How could you seriously think that this reptile brain would trump the social stigma about rape on the victim ?


a)the "reptile brain" underlies everything you do. It is a functioning, strong, and often dominant part of the decision-making process that takes place in the human mind - a decision-making process, I should note, that seems to happen before you consciously make a decision. (see Libet, Benjamin). It is a very large part of why, as rational as we like to pretend to be, we are still very much creatures of emotional knee-jerk response before reasoned decision unless we make not insignificant efforts to train ourselves otherwise.

b)Sorry, society itself is merely a means to increase the chances for reproduction - it is a means of seeking communal security against the vagaries of fate, whether you're talking about securing a steady food supply, protection from enemies/predators/disease, or the availability of suitable mates. As such, all of the complexities we have developed in advancing our society's ability to function under ever-increasing population loads are all, in the end, refinements to keep the system working for its ultimate goal: to increase our chances of continuing our genetic lineage.

The continuation of life is Life's purpose. Everything that we do, as individuals, as groups, as a species, is tied directly or indirectly to the need to breed.

In any case, if you stick to your logic you will probably at least agree with me that rape is not specifically different from any other kind of abuse in Erfworld since it is not related to reproduction. :mrgreen:


I'd say we don't actually have enough information to draw those kinds of conclusions. We don't know a)to what extent thinkamancy/loyalty/duty combine to form an underlying precondition (NOT brainwashing; this precondition would exist from the moment a unit is popped - it would be part of the fundamental make-up of the unit's mind) that recludes the possibility of actual rape - it's potentially not even 'you can't refuse' or even 'you can't object', but potentially all the way to 'if the Warlord/Overlord/Ruler wants it, you want it'. In such a situation, it wouldn't be traumatic at all to the unit involved - but it would also mean the unit involved isn't a partner. They're basically an animated sex toy. There's also b)we don't know to what degree units with some measure of self-determination (warlords, casters, etc) place value on intimacy, for exactly the reasons you mention: there's no biological necessity that we know of, so we have no way to know if the 'rules' that govern Erf generate a simulated imperative that would give rise to similar tendencies or not.

So no, I don't agree: you draw a conclusion. I say we don't know enough yet to do so.
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Re: Summer Updates - 044

Postby shneekeythelost » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:28 pm

To be honest, I'm surprised Parson didn't also bring up 'Not into Necrophilia' as another reason to not have fun with Decrypted units... despite the fact that they are not 'uncroaked', it could still have a similar 'squick' vibe of "That was once dead... ewww, no".
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