Book 2 – Page 83

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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby Tathar » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:15 am

Nnelg wrote:Well, the counterattack at Spacerock has gone from final sortie to massacre of routing troops. *SIGHS* And I was really starting to see Slately as a reformed paragon of nobility... I guess it just further proves the point of there being no "Right" side to this conflict.

For now anyway, but I'm still betting that it's because GK, JS, the hippiemancers, predictamancers, and thinkamancers (maybe more too) will all team up to take down Charlie, who has been acting to control and create wars all this time to pay for his business model. I'm only unsure about whether Jetstone ends up in that alliance or not, since Slately might not go along with it even though Trammenis probably would. There's been a lot of little details that set up for the possibility of such an alliance, though. You can't have one of those future allies be depicted as evil, or else it would really make things awkward for the reader.

Parson will break war itself by fighting a "war to end all wars". It was why he was summoned. This much I'm sure of.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby Tathar » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:21 am

Kaed wrote:Two things occur to me here.

First is that either one can tell who made a scroll, or one can tell when the arkendish has been applied during the making of a scroll. It sounds to me like Isaac is disappointed in Jojo in the second to last panel.

Second, Isaac is quite possibly the most powerful Thinkamancer in erfworld. Most definitely somewhere around a level 10 or higher and master class to boot. If anyone is to notice Charlie peeking in on his thinkagram, it would be Isaac.

But I think the important thing is - and now we move into speculation - that Parson will have a new ally and learn about Charlie. Perhaps he will begin using other means of communication.

Like hats? :)

You know he's going to be decrypted folks...

But I wonder... Jetstone will soon be under new management.

Does anyone think they may soon ally against Charlie?

I've been predicting an alliance between GK and JS in the name of peace for some time. Since Charlie's entire business model relies on plenty of war going on, he'd be a prime target for such an alliance.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby HalfTangible » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:29 am

...Most of what this page tells us, we knew already (poor phoebe :( i liked her) but what's most interesting to me is confirmation that this spell apparently not only COMES from Charlie (which could only be guessed before now) but was specifically designed BY him. IE, Charlie can craft Carnymancy spells - or at the very least, understands them well enough to design one and then have someone else craft it.

This opens up the possibility that the Arkendish can manipulate many forms of magic besides thinkamancy and that thinkamancy is just the most useful to Charlie.

EDIT: I could've sworn i posted this BEFORE i went to sleep, yet there it was when i woke up, sitting there in a post preview format >.>
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby Nnelg » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:02 am

kagato23 wrote:These people showed up to kill [Slately] and everybody under his rule, resurrecting them as abominable reflections of themselves, don't forget. Just because some of them don't want to fight now doesn't change why they came here. It's been a no quarter war up till now (prisoners have not been taken), responding in kind is honestly expected.

I know, it's just the shot of the archon in panel 1 being blasted while crying to help that I found somewhat disturbing. Seems war is boop, even in Erfworld. No wonder it should be stopped.

I hope Slately goes for capture of the remaining archons, rather than just croaking them.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby Frosted » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:10 am

HalfTangible wrote:...Most of what this page tells us, we knew already (poor phoebe :( i liked her) but what's most interesting to me is confirmation that this spell apparently not only COMES from Charlie (which could only be guessed before now) but was specifically designed BY him. IE, Charlie can craft Carnymancy spells - or at the very least, understands them well enough to design one and then have someone else craft it.


I looked back and nothing actually establishes Mancy of the scroll (unless I missed something), only that a Carnymancer wants to cast it.

This panel implies that either the dead King is the double or that Dittomancy doubles your magic items as well.

Ohio sucks Parson! Stay where you are.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby Berserkas » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:49 pm

Frosted wrote:I looked back and nothing actually establishes Mancy of the scroll (unless I missed something), only that a Carnymancer wants to cast it.

...

Actually, this
http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uplo ... eb_900.jpg
very very very very very very very very clearly states that the scroll is carnymancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby Kreistor » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:56 pm

So, Isaac is able to identify that Charlie was behind the scroll's manufacture, and now Parson knows Charlie will destroy him if he can't have him. Not a big surprise, but the paradigm shifts a little with that revelation.

But, still, this feels like a delay to up tension. Let's get on with it, please? Still got a long way to go before this day is over.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby j_scheibel » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:20 pm

I really enjoyed the norma jeane/candle in the wind reference. (we never knew her at all). probably my favorite reality reference that's been done to date.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby the_tick_rules » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:31 pm

looks like chimney girl is in trouble.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby zilfallon » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:54 pm

Kreistor wrote:So, Isaac is able to identify that Charlie was behind the scroll's manufacture, and now Parson knows Charlie will destroy him if he can't have him. Not a big surprise, but the paradigm shifts a little with that revelation.

But, still, this feels like a delay to up tension. Let's get on with it, please? Still got a long way to go before this day is over.


Yeah, this turn is probably the longest turn we, the readers, have seen :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby Swodaems » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:19 pm

Kreistor wrote:So, Isaac is able to identify that Charlie was behind the scroll's manufacture, and now Parson knows Charlie will destroy him if he can't have him. Not a big surprise, but the paradigm shifts a little with that revelation.

But, still, this feels like a delay to up tension. Let's get on with it, please? Still got a long way to go before this day is over.

Parson isn't the only one who just found out Charlie is taking a non-neutral stand on the GK-RCC issue. That scroll constitutes proof of Charlie's involvement in a plan to eliminate Parson to any caster capable of examining it like Issac just did. Depending on the politics of the situation, that could be very costly to Charlie. Charlie has claimed again and again that he is a neutral entity. Public and irrefutable proof of the falseness of that claim could be devastating to him.

More and more, I think Parson isn't meant to cause of Charlie's downfall thru his own merit. I think he was summoned to be a distraction or bait for a trap. During book 1, he managed to cause Charlie the biggest loss he has ever incurred during battle by mistakenly providing Charlie with a target. Later, the combined might of the mouths of Slately and Ansom managed to cast doubt on Charlie's neutrality when they started spraying Toolism all over the place. (Some of Charlie's book 2 actions make a lot more sense as attempts to shut Slately and Ansom up. (He shuts Slately up by helping him, and shuts Ansom up by ordering him croaked by Haggar.))

Every action that Charlie takes that can be seen as non-neutral could be turned against him in the right circumstances.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby Tiltias » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:21 pm

(First-time poster, Long-time reader! This page has set all kinds of subplots in motion)

Isaac's thinkagram/mind-message in the last panel is going to be a gamebreaker for Parson- Charlie now wants to kill him, instead of being a dangerous ally (as in Book 1) or a clever correspondant (as in last summer's updates). And Charlie doesn't even particularly care about Parson finding his fingerprints all over that scroll. Or he doesn't see that as a possibility.

So.. I think Parson will realise that he's in too deep amongst the politics and power-gamers of Erf. He'll want answers from Isaac, (and Jojo?) and thats exactly want Isaac wants him to think.

Also, something that I don't think has been said yet: What will happen when/if Mirror Slately sees his own broken corpse, splayed out across that roof top? I don't think he will ignore it, even someone as insular as Slately will be shocked into action by definite proof that he won't last more than a few turns. (At least.. depending on the dittomancy spell)


PS: Huge applause for the art and writing! Every update has been worth waiting for.. and this one is going to be key. For both Jetstone and Parson.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby Glenn » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:26 pm

Personally, I' think I'll be very disappointed if Charlie turns out to be the "Big Bad" of the whole Erfworld series. In a different fantasy world, the fact that Charlie encourages wars in order to make money might be a big deal. But the Titans designed the whole world, and all of it's physical laws, in order to ensure a constant state of warfare. Charlie can't stop war anymore than any of Erfworld's other native units can. Only Parson, as a being from entirely outside Erfworld's Reality, can "end war", and I don't think it will be anywhere near as easy as just gathering up a big army and storming Charlie's city.
I suspect that the Titan's may have tried to design Erfworld so that the only way to 'End War" is to utterly destroy Erfworld. It wouldn't surprise me if Charlie and Marie both believed that was the case, which would explain why Charlie so fears Parson. It may be Parson's Fate to destroy Erfworld, and if so, then that Fate is the enemy he must fight against and defeat,
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby MonteCristo » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:32 pm

Swodaems wrote:
Kreistor wrote:So, Isaac is able to identify that Charlie was behind the scroll's manufacture, and now Parson knows Charlie will destroy him if he can't have him. Not a big surprise, but the paradigm shifts a little with that revelation.

But, still, this feels like a delay to up tension. Let's get on with it, please? Still got a long way to go before this day is over.

Parson isn't the only one who just found out Charlie is taking a non-neutral stand on the GK-RCC issue. That scroll constitutes proof of Charlie's involvement in a plan to eliminate Parson to any caster capable of examining it like Issac just did. Depending on the politics of the situation, that could be very costly to Charlie. Charlie has claimed again and again that he is a neutral entity. Public and irrefutable proof of the falseness of that claim could be devastating to him.

More and more, I think Parson isn't meant to cause of Charlie's downfall thru his own merit. I think he was summoned to be a distraction or bait for a trap. During book 1, he managed to cause Charlie the biggest loss he has ever incurred during battle by mistakenly providing Charlie with a target. Later, the combined might of the mouths of Slately and Ansom managed to cast doubt on Charlie's neutrality when they started spraying Toolism all over the place. (Some of Charlie's book 2 actions make a lot more sense as attempts to shut Slately and Ansom up. (He shuts Slately up by helping him, and shuts Ansom up by ordering him croaked by Haggar.))

Every action that Charlie takes that can be seen as non-neutral could be turned against him in the right circumstances.


Based on the politics of the situation this will either have no effect or a POSITIVE effect for Charlie reputation... Charlie can still claim neutrality by falsely claiming he was paid to get rid of Parson; Parson and the thinkamancers wouldn't believe it but most of the magic kingdom and erfworld would think that charlie was just conducting his usual business though in an unusual way

However even if the rest of erfworld DOES realize that Charlie is not neautrual it will more than likely have a POSITIVE effect on his reputation cause when it comes down to it he is taking a stance AGAINST Gobwinkob, thus AGAINST toolism and AGAINST the side that most of erfworld hates. When it comes down to it, the only ones who actually LIKE parson are the predictamancers, the thinkamancers, and the hippymancers; the rest of the magic kingdom is either neutral or they do not like Parson as they wanted him effectively BANNED from the magic kingdom, and most of erfworld hates him because most of erfworld hates GK. Charlie working agianst them would actually help shake off the toolism rumors spread by Slately and would win him the favor of ALL of GK's enemies. And considering how the thinkamacners already hated charlie, that means the only new enemy Charlie has made is the predictamancers and hippymancers; and i'm not sure how much GK can count on the hippymancers since Janise is starting to seriously doubt her support for Parson now that his actions are threatening to endanger the ONE place in erfworld that has managed to exist untouched by war... speaking of which, if Parson does go through jetstone's portal, he will in turn make even MORE enemies out of the people of the magic kingdom (many of those neutral casters will certainly turn against Parson), which would make Charlie even more popular for trying to stop Parson before he went through the portal.



IN the end, the ONLY downside to this action is that Parson can now confirm that Charlie is somehow involved in this fight and thus can start taking him into account so that Charlie may have a harder time pulling his tactics.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby 0beron » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:38 pm

MonteCristo wrote:[Charlie] is taking a stance AGAINST Gobwinkob, thus AGAINST toolism and AGAINST the side that most of erfworld hates.

Remember that Erfworld is FAR bigger than the Western Conflict, and there are very likely sides who have never heard of GK or may have been exposed to the idea of 'Toolism less. In fact, the only sides who DO care about GK don't have casters in the MK at the moment. But all/most sides know about Charlie, and will thus have an opinion about his change in neutrality (if they perceive it that way and don't buy the bluff). So on the whole, I think this new information at the very least leaves Charlie no better off than he was before...if not somewhat tarnished to boot.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby mortissimus » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:16 pm

Vorteks wrote:
0beron wrote:*facedesk* this issue has been explained to death.


Sorry! I don't have time to read everything posted in the forums.


I think the fact that some forumites with rather high post counts are getting fed-up explaining why the city has not fallen, combined with ever new questions about it points towards this being not very well explained. I mean if the story is intended to primarily work as a book and revealing the rules of the world is a big part of the story, then by now readers of the book (or later new-comers to teh website) will typically be scratching their heads as they have not (as opposed to forumites with very high post-counts) been over the rules as presented with a fine-tooth comb. I mean, by now it is not a surprise that the city has not fallen, just strange (for those that did not get the assumptions of the Duke's statemets on the matter).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby MonteCristo » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:39 pm

0beron wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:[Charlie] is taking a stance AGAINST Gobwinkob, thus AGAINST toolism and AGAINST the side that most of erfworld hates.

Remember that Erfworld is FAR bigger than the Western Conflict, and there are very likely sides who have never heard of GK or may have been exposed to the idea of 'Toolism less. In fact, the only sides who DO care about GK don't have casters in the MK at the moment. But all/most sides know about Charlie, and will thus have an opinion about his change in neutrality (if they perceive it that way and don't buy the bluff). So on the whole, I think this new information at the very least leaves Charlie no better off than he was before...if not somewhat tarnished to boot.


You have to remember that the magic Kingdom is essentially a hub for all news in erfworld and the arken tools and GK's declaration of toolism is BIG news; If its spread throughout the magic kingdom then you can be fairly certain that the rest of erfworld has heard of it by now. Stories of GK toolism, decryption and so forth have likley reach even farther than Charlie has. And the various royal sides of erfworld are not gonna be pleased with the concept of toolism... as for the various non-royal sides, if they are far away they probably won't really have too much of an opinion either way since probably don't care too much for either the royal mandate or the toolist mandate and they are too far away to be effected (so they won't care until GK reaches far enough to be knocking at their doors

And again, Charlie is gun for hire, all he has to do is claim that he is working for someone and everyone will just see it as Charlie doing business as usual. Hell, by default, most of those far off sides will be that's what's going on, that charlie was hired to take on GK... basically if they don't know much about this conflict, they will think Charlie is just doing business; on the other hand, if they know enough about this conflict to know Charlie is an active player and not just working for hire, then they probably know enough to know about toolism, and are most likely gonna have a neutral or negative opinion about it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby 0beron » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:51 pm

Mort makes a decent point about the Portal-Closing issue, and I hope Vorteks didn't feel bad or like I was jumping down his throat. The reason for my exasperation was due to a history of people who DO go through the rules with a fine-tooth comb and were trying to argue anyway that the Portal should have closed. I've got nothing against less frequent posters.

On the one hand I do feel Rob created a bit of confusion with the Duke's insistence that the Portal would close. On the other hand though, if you read it carefully, the Duke does say it would close when the city stops being a Capital, not just when the Tower falls.
On the topic of this being a problem though, I disgree. Rob intends it to read casually like a book, so if you're going to be a casual reader, then maybe you're confused for a bit but you roll with it and figure the Duke was wrong. Or you pick apart his statement and read back to figure out why he appeared wrong. You can't really sit in between the 2 camps.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby Saladman » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:47 pm

Aster Azul wrote:Go through the portal, Parson!!

(I ship Parson/Portal. Someone please write Parson/Portal slash fanfiction. End Parson/Portal UST!!)


That's hilarious.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 83

Postby teratorn » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:02 pm

What is it that the archons with Parson know that Charlie so desperately wants to keep a secret?
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