Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby effataigus » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:49 pm

Without having read this forum too closely to see if it has been said, I'll point out that much of the speculation here is implicitly assuming that every character we've seen is from either Stupidworld or Erfworld. By most accounts, the multi-verse is a big and scary place.

0beron wrote:
Shai_halud wrote:OH GOD. Charlies a carny...
It makes perfect sense. This fits the Wizard reference, it is a school of magic that would be flashy and obvious to someone who is not a caster, AND could also settle the Kingworld link issue (I have speculated that given what the spell did, Carnymancy would be required, suggesting JoJo was in the link as well...but this wouldn't be necessary if Charlie is a Carny himself by trade)

Hahah, indeed. Funny that the bi-link and the tri-link proponents might both be wrong and right. I wouldn't call it canon, but I wouldn't rule it out either.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby atalex » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:10 pm

I noticed some objections to the possibility that Judy is from Stupidworld because she would be too tall. While her name is Judy, she is obviously an expy for Dorothy Gale who, IIRC, was a child in the books. Shirley Temple was originally supposed to play her until the directors decided to go with a more mature actress. The character's Wiki page indicates that she was 11 in the first book and largely stopped aging thereafter due to the magic of Oz. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Gale

Since Erfworlders are depicted as looking like prepubescent children who act uncannily mature (to the point that Parson is skeeved out by the thought of sex with an archon), it's possibly that Judy/Dorothy could have been brought to Erfworld as a child and then kept at that age level by magic and/or some inherent property of Erfworld. If so, she might well be indistinguishable from a typical Erfworlder.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby tigerusthegreat » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:07 pm

am I going nuts or did the previous update name the ruler as Dorothy first and now its been retconjured?

EDIT: nevermind, I'm not going crazy
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Jorgath » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:34 pm

Reaction before reading anyone else's:

a) Holy crap she's from Earth/Stupidworld.

b) Hey, "he prefers blue" ... CHARLIE????

Now to read y'alls reactions.
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how charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul."
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby DevilDan » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:29 pm

Absolute WIN on the "Olive Garden" line.
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby bladestorm » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:10 pm

This is mostly just for my future use. List of stuff to chew on while waiting for the next update.

What's the significance of the jester?
Possible link to Queen of earts from Wonderland with the "Take her HEAD off" vs "Off with her HEAD".
Trouble getting the walking stick to look straight... Aftereffect of the flowers or some manner of foolamancy?
"she" brought Jillian in herself. Olive or Wanda? How far back does this bad trip go? How does Olive know of Jillian's Fate?
Compare Dorothy's accidental undertakings with possible events Judy could have done on her path to Overlady. Bucket of water on the witch?
Leaves from outside of reality? Still tripping, or possible doorway to adjacent realities nearby. Same outside of reality as Parson?
The leaf she knew as Judy got carried somewhere over a huge, bright rainbow spread throughout the multiple spaces. More than one reality to choose a perfect warlord from?
Winds now at gale force...Dorothy Gale reference?
Lot of talk about leaves, especially for a side with a florist.
Assuming that it is an emerald city, but it could be some sort of plant based city.
"I flap". So thought that said "I fap".
Judy flying away on a broomstick.
Judy is in stockinged feet, implying no shoes. No ruby slippers. Have I seen something similar to ruby slippers elsewhere?
How has jillian broken the addiction, and how does she manage to live without them. Connection to her breakdown after the interrogation in GK?
Any possible tie-in to when Parson was going over his options in tBfGK, and referenced Dorothy killing to get out of Oz?
Efbaum... Efdup?... f-bomb... author's name... missing the third tie-in. Doubtful there is any connection to GK, but we don't know where this place is.
was green, now prefers blue. Green archon? Seems a lot like a green lantern.
Another mention of Oz in Parson's Klog #3. Also mentioned Smaug's scale and the thermal exhaust port on the death star. Death star could be charlie's fortress. Smaug = Wanda maybe? Stanley and his dwagons?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Dante » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:43 pm

DyolfKnip wrote:Couple other gems in this one. "Erfbaum", in addition to being L.F. Baum, could also be f-bomb. Judy wearing an tracking bracelet on her ankle, like a common convict.


Erf Baum also implies "world tree," as in Yggdrasil, the connection between realms in Norse mythology. If ever there was a side to have invented the spell that summons people from Earth into Erfworld, that would be it. Also ties in nicely with Over the Rainbow from the Wizard of Oz imagery, since the method of travel from Asgard to Midgard is called the rainbow bridge...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Zeku » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:53 pm

If the fourth arkentool uses flower power, and Olive is carrying it, this means that all known arkentools use a double or triple axis discipline

thinkamancy: life/motion
flower power: life/matter
croakamancy: motion/matter
carnymancy: all three

I realize this kills the theory that all arkentools use Fate magic, but Olive's combat powers are super strong, and it would make sense if her ascension were the result of attunement.

Healomancy and Signamancy don't strike me as arkentool-level disciplines, and the other three Fate disciplines have either been given pretty strong limitations, or no treatment at all. (changeamancy)

rainbow bridge

The bifrost. It just looks like a rainbow.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Salem » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:34 pm

I got a whole bunch of random things.
1) Am I the only one who thought of the Violator at the murderous clown? Maybe I just need to get John Leg____ out of my mind.
2) Now is croak a Euphemism for kill or are they in fact different acts. Is croak something that happens to erflings and kill what happened to earthlings? Is the reason it feels inherently bad that much like a robot operating under Asimov's three laws killing earthlings is strictly forbodden? Do you NEED an earthling to kill an earthling? Dorothy for Oz, Parson for Charlie?
3) Parson’s size may be a factor of unit type, he is a heavy after all if Judy is an earthling she most likely is not a heavy. And Parson seems appropriately sized for his unit type. I like the zoom idea; it could just be because of his demands. It could also be that everything is a joke in erfworld and Parson is a big guy.
4) Does Judy get home?
5) Judy's name swap, could it be her name is Judy and when she got here it made her think of Oz so she made a crack about being Dorothy and it stuck?
6) Am I the only one who wants to see Flash Gordon now?
7) Do all the leaves and realities reference a world tree?
8) Is this a time relativity issue? Does time even apply? Do these summonngs pull people from different times? Sieggy is right that the time line might be a bit odd.
9) Dorothy doesn't have to be the perfect warlord maybe she was the perfect assassin. Or the perfect chimney sweep, same for Charlie, either one being theoretical. But I could see Summon perfect Caster. Summon perfect Heir maybe.
10) Summon spells, makes me think it's significant it was summon perfect warlord not summon perfect CWL. Low bonus doesn’t hurt when your real reason for being is to be a strategist.
11) The time line and name thing is always a bit weird for me since I imagine it like an online game, which is why I always think the names are so silly. When the people I know table top they get really creative. Gobwin Knob and Ef'd Up? Seems so much more onliney. So that makes me wonder more about Dorothy and Oz. Maybe Erf just borrows from culture and we live in a world that is obsessed with that kind of culture. I mean Transformers 2 is successful, my friends actually like it. Sad face.
12) I don't think erf and earth time line up IF Judy was really taken in the past for past erf, as FAQ and the dustbowl don't really show up at the same time. Is Erf taking things FROM the internet? Where all things exist at once?
13) I believe the Archendish is real, as Archons have said it allows him to apply his bonus at long range to battles he watches.
14) Oddly enough Parson's first time breaking the boop barrier was the F-bomb. Did someone use that name to get around the chat filter?
15) Is it only if you use the flowers to long that they actually are required to sustain your life?
"Too cute to (stay) croak(ed)!"
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Radagast » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:22 pm

Judy/Dorothy being from Stupidworld could also explain her unnatural strength - she might be a child-sized Heavy unit...

Also interesting that this city was either at least rebuilt or captured intact.

Also, interesting that perhaps Charlie had another plan originally. What's his plan now? He wants more and more Archons... if he gets enough and does a decapitation strike on every single side on the same turn, does he "Win" ??
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Salem » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:28 pm

Radagast wrote:
Also, interesting that perhaps Charlie had another plan originally. What's his plan now? He wants more and more Archons... if he gets enough and does a decapitation strike on every single side on the same turn, does he "Win" ??

Intersting theory but I don't think it's possible sans archenpliers. I believe we've heard about upkeep for Charlie's archons. Which means that his number will be limited.
Granted if he could do enough work for sides it might happen. But considering how large Erfworld is hinted at being and how many archons would be needed for even one heavily defended capital. And the fact that all heirs would also have to be targeted at the same time, the archon cost for killing all their stacks etc would be really high additionally since Charlie doesn't believe in lose scenarios he'd have to bring so much overkill to every battle because even one lost battle could spiral into him losing as he'd suddenly have no buyers and would have to disband archons left and right.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Glome » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:01 pm

Radagast wrote:
Also, interesting that perhaps Charlie had another plan originally. What's his plan now? He wants more and more Archons... if he gets enough and does a decapitation strike on every single side on the same turn, does he "Win" ??


Charlie "wins" by there always being conflict and being pretty much untouchable due to his thinkamancy, money and amazingly tough hidden city. Parson is a threat to this win, both for the prophecies of bringing peace and for explicitly either stopping or killing Charlie, but otherwise Charlie could keep his business plan going potentially forever. There is no actual set goal in living in Erfworld otherwise than surviving, and conquering everyone else is usually done to achieve the same type of security that Charlie mostly already has.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby 0beron » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:05 pm

Glome wrote:Charlie's amazingly tough hidden city.
Oh I very much doubt that it is hidden, or even especially tough. He obviously must have neighbors, so people certainly know WHERE it is. It's just likely surrounded by difficult terrain, and anyone knows it'd be suicide to attack given the power of Archons. But I doubt the city itself is anything special, structurally speaking.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Radagast » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:52 pm

Glome wrote:
Radagast wrote:
Also, interesting that perhaps Charlie had another plan originally. What's his plan now? He wants more and more Archons... if he gets enough and does a decapitation strike on every single side on the same turn, does he "Win" ??


Charlie "wins" by there always being conflict and being pretty much untouchable due to his thinkamancy, money and amazingly tough hidden city. Parson is a threat to this win, both for the prophecies of bringing peace and for explicitly either stopping or killing Charlie, but otherwise Charlie could keep his business plan going potentially forever. There is no actual set goal in living in Erfworld otherwise than surviving, and conquering everyone else is usually done to achieve the same type of security that Charlie mostly already has.


No, Charlie "exists" and "grows more powerful" by there always being conflict. It doesn't mean he has won. Also it's not a hidden city... if they didn't already know its location, I'm sure Parson would have gotten it from the Decrypted Archons.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Glome » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:12 pm

Radagast wrote:
No, Charlie "exists" and "grows more powerful" by there always being conflict. It doesn't mean he has won. Also it's not a hidden city... if they didn't already know its location, I'm sure Parson would have gotten it from the Decrypted Archons.


By the same token even if Charlie could do it, conquering every city on the map wouldn't be a win for Charlie either, it might even make him weaker. There seems to be a diminishing return for conquered territory, and Charlie would have lost a huge source of revenue by not having any more clients. And the ability of barbarians and creatures to spawn continuously over the map would make Charlie's conquest temporary at best.

Winning in the manner you are talking about makes as little sense as winning life on Earth.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby (name here) » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:59 pm

Faq had neighbors, and people didn't know where it was.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby 0beron » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:10 am

(name here) wrote:Faq had neighbors, and people didn't know where it was.

True, but Charlie doesn't have a Foolamancer (and no, I refuse to believe that Archons even en-mass could do what Jack did), and he has no reason to hide either.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby name lips » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:14 am

I was thinking of Charlies as being a humbug, but the discussion has convinced me that Carnymancer is more likely, and fits better with the themes of Erfworld.

Remember all the hints involving Charlie's powers over natural allies (or neutral sides, I can't remember the terminology), like Dwagons and Hobgobwins? That fits with the concept of "cheating" that is apparently the domain of Carnymancy. Saline IV seems to have been croaked because of natural ally manipulation. For some reason, GK's natural allies aren't spawning nearby. Stanley ran into and tamed HUGE numbers of dwagons on his way to attack Faq, ruining Wanda's original plan of luring him into a trap and claiming the Arkenhammer.

Something fishy is going on.

.
Also, Judy's usage of the word "kill" is obviously designed to spur discussion and debate amongst us. Jillian had never heard it before, but knew it was vulgar and wrong. Perhaps Erfworlders feel this way when the "language filter" is bypassed? I wonder if Parson's friends feel the same way when he curses. Sort of fundamentally shocked, though they don't know why, and don't really understand the meaning of the words.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Judy is from Stupidworld, but it DOES mean that she's breaking rules. Rulebreaking. Again. A strangely common theme.

Perhaps bypassing the language filter is simply an aspect of Carnymancy, not a power of Stupidworld. Perhaps even "natural Carnymancy." Perhaps people who have, like Parson, declared themselves a "Player" are capable of simple acts of natural Carnymancy, like cursing.

Perhaps neither Charlie nor Judy are from Stupidworld, but they simply declared themselves Players at some point in their existence. Perhaps the conflict of Erfworld isn't between Sides, or even between "Royals" and "Toolists," but between Players. Sides are simply tools they use against one another, just another set of rules to be exploited.

Perhaps I'm overusing the word Perhaps.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby Lamech » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:21 am

Judy can't be from Stupidworld. She if she was she would have a big fat WTFHAXXS! sign hanging from her in the form of no visible points.
Zeku wrote:I realize this kills the theory that all arkentools use Fate magic, but Olive's combat powers are super strong, and it would make sense if her ascension were the result of attunement.

Healomancy and Signamancy don't strike me as arkentool-level disciplines, and the other three Fate disciplines have either been given pretty strong limitations, or no treatment at all. (changeamancy)
Predictamancy has pretty strong limits. Of course, knowing all possible fates would help.

Dollamancy though? That doesn't have very strong limits. Especially compared to something like croakamancy. Even if it could only do what a dollamancer does... unlimited juice. "Oh hai, that's a cute army. Say high to ten thousand golems, all decked out in top tier magical equipment that infuses them with countless abilities. Also mass goelm heal." And then of course, the arkentool could do things previously out of the reach of any dollamancer. I'm guessing manufacture artifacts.

Nor is healomancy that weak for an arkentool. One word: Resurrection. That would make decryption look downright reasonable.

Also I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too hard to come up with arkentool level signamancy. How about anything you draw becomes real? Or just change all the signamancy of the world. For example, make all the units of one side see the rest of the units as enemies. Army kills itself.
0beron wrote:Oh I very much doubt that it is hidden, or even especially tough. He obviously must have neighbors, so people certainly know WHERE it is. It's just likely surrounded by difficult terrain, and anyone knows it'd be suicide to attack given the power of Archons. But I doubt the city itself is anything special, structurally speaking.
We know its heavily trapped. Plus if archons have dollamancy they should be able to fabricate, which means they can make stuff by hand. I would be surprised if Charlie hasn't heavily fortified his city. At least he probably has ballistic engines for each of his 700ish (IIRC) golems who have been training for titans know how long.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 051

Postby junovalkyrie » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:21 am

0beron wrote:
Glome wrote:Charlie's amazingly tough hidden city.
Oh I very much doubt that it is hidden, or even especially tough.


Summer Update 46 wrote:How many cities did Charlescomm have? One, a Level Five capital with truly murderous defenses.

How many units? At the time they had been decrypted, a little over six hundred Archons. About eighty percent of these were out in the field, either serving clients or standing by to be hired near hotspots. They ranged farther out into Erfworld than most sides imagined the world existed. Another 700 or so golems of various types (mostly cloth) guarded the city.

...

So what was Charlie like? None of them had ever physically seen him. He had a special personal guard of Archons who lived with him in the main tower, but those were rarely seen either.


So Charlie has a level 5 city (the highest level of city we've seen) with "truly murderous defenses" guarded by ~120 archons (and recall that he seemed to think that the idea of taking Gobwin Knob - the "toughest defensive position in the known world", according to Stanley - with 14 archons was feasible before Parson's bracer told him otherwise), including a personal guard of presumably high-level archons, and 700 golems. Sounds pretty tough to me.
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