Book 2 – Page 96

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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Lamech » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:08 pm

bladestorm wrote:So which would actually be stronger -- a stack of eight reds, or a stack of four reds and four greens?

Presumably the combo stack. Hence the combo. What I wonder is if the gas is still toxic, and if the attack can still run through the whole stack (maybe more of it?) with the insta kill potential. Gas becomes boosted to fire, and the fire gets boosted with toxic potential.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby bladestorm » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:57 pm

Lamech wrote:
bladestorm wrote:So which would actually be stronger -- a stack of eight reds, or a stack of four reds and four greens?

Presumably the combo stack. Hence the combo. What I wonder is if the gas is still toxic, and if the attack can still run through the whole stack (maybe more of it?) with the insta kill potential. Gas becomes boosted to fire, and the fire gets boosted with toxic potential.

There may be a lot of mechanics behind how that combo breath weapon works. Does it require one gas and one fire to work, or could you use 7 greens and one red, and the red sets all seven on fire? And how does the boost affect damage dealt? If it doubles the damage, then by hit points, 4 reds and 4 greens would do the same as 8 reds. Then there is the physical difference in the dwagons regarding armour, hits, and move.
If the gas attack can run through a whole stack, and if one red can ignite multiple gas clouds, that sounds like something Parson would cook up as a big bomb effect, especially if the greens could withdraw after gassing a hex. Send in a huge stack of greens with a warlord (so they don't engage immediately), gas the place, withdraw (archery gets their hitsies), then send in a red to torch the whole place. 32 gas clouds, plus the original fire attack, equals crispy hex.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby multilis » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:23 pm

bladestorm wrote:So which would actually be stronger -- a stack of eight reds, or a stack of four reds and four greens?

In the game Age of Wonders II which is very similar to Erfworld...

Reds/fire have chance to set enemy on fire which reduces their chance to hit on attack and weakens them for 3 rounds. (Units vulnerable to fire take double damage, a few units are immune to fire)
Green/poison have chance to poison enemy, which reduces chance to attack, chance to dodge attack, resistance for rest of turn. (Some units are immune to poison)

Cloth golems may for example take double damage from fire but be immune to poison.

A mix is better for chance to both set fire to unit and poison them at same time, and do at least some damage to units that are resistant or immune to a type of attack.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby bladestorm » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:49 pm

multilis wrote:
bladestorm wrote:So which would actually be stronger -- a stack of eight reds, or a stack of four reds and four greens?

In the game Age of Wonders II which is very similar to Erfworld...

Reds/fire have chance to set enemy on fire which reduces their chance to hit on attack and weakens them for 3 rounds. (Units vulnerable to fire take double damage, a few units are immune to fire)
Green/poison have chance to poison enemy, which reduces chance to attack, chance to dodge attack, resistance for rest of turn. (Some units are immune to poison)

Cloth golems may for example take double damage from fire but be immune to poison.

Age of Wonders II, you say? I may have to check that out. Warbarons has already drawn me in with its many similarities to Erfworld, and is subtly influencing some of my concepts about Erfworld. Trying to rebuild Charlescomm with a single city and setting production to just Archons had me lose the game, because the goal was to own a certain percentage of the board, and one of my two other opponents met that requirement while I wasted everything that came remotely near my one city. In order to continue in that scenario, I had to keep circulating my Archons through the main battle area sniping off whichever side happened to be growing stronger and razing all of the cities so that neither of my opponents could meet the 'win' condition.

Still, a lot of what I see in Warbarons sows up in Erfworld. I equate Ansom to a Paladin warlord, Sylvia could be a dark knight or valkyrie, and Jillian a modification of a horse lord. Still waiting to see an assassin warlord. Also waiting to see medusae, mammoths, eagles, crows, minotaurs, scorpions and demons.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby teratorn » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:16 pm

The problem with dwagons is that they are very vulnerable to attack from multiple opponents. They will be ok as ground units if you can provide other units to stack with them for protection, in particular knights or warlords. I'm not sure how many of those Sylvia has with her.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby multilis » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:23 pm

"Age of Wonders II" These days you buy older games like that as digital downloads for a few dollars. The latest version has suffix "shadow magic", with a few more optional features.

It is completely turn based with separate combat map when units fight over a hex. (All neighbor hexes join in the battle)

http://aow2.heavengames.com/ has locations to buy digitally on top, and information on how to make own types of units, maps, and scenarios.

One downside of version 2 over version 1 is only the main wizard can now cast global/multi-turn spells so harder to simulate a Dirtomancer making crap golems.

...

"The problem with dwagons is that they are very vulnerable to attack from multiple opponents. They will be ok as ground units if you can provide other units to stack with them for protection, in particular knights or warlords. I'm not sure how many of those Sylvia has with her."

In games like this you either form a defensive line, and try to shuffle in your meat shields to help limit swarming of dragons, or you do what Parson called a "fighting retreat" in book 1. Dragons being ground units rather than flying in this battle drastically reduces their power, they can get swarmed by ground units, can't do hit and runs on enemy leadership/archers behind enemy front lines.

Similar to wars in ancient greece and roman times, middle ages, etc, a key element is to hold a solid line so you only face attacks from front. If some of your line croaks and you don't have reserves or can't get them in place in time, and the solid line breaks, your side may suddenly take 2x the damage and fall apart.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby jimmiebjr » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:39 pm

It's official. I have no bloody idea what's happening in this story now.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Goshen » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:54 pm

teratorn wrote:The problem with dwagons is that they are very vulnerable to attack from multiple opponents. They will be ok as ground units if you can provide other units to stack with them for protection, in particular knights or warlords. I'm not sure how many of those Sylvia has with her.


Interesting! You just described the classic mid-to-late 20th century tank.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby effataigus » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:11 pm

jimmiebjr wrote:It's official. I have no bloody idea what's happening in this story now.

What has you confused? It all makes sense for the most part when you listen to everyone here hyper-analyze everything.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Housellama » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:19 pm

Goshen wrote:
teratorn wrote:The problem with dwagons is that they are very vulnerable to attack from multiple opponents. They will be ok as ground units if you can provide other units to stack with them for protection, in particular knights or warlords. I'm not sure how many of those Sylvia has with her.


Interesting! You just described the classic mid-to-late 20th century tank.

If you mean from WW2 to DS, I would completely agree with you
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby multilis » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:30 pm

Tanks: If the enemy had no time to create anti tank trenches, etc then there were times when tanks instead used speed rather that waiting for much slower allied support units to protect them from swarming. (Enemy can't attack your rear if you are moving faster than the units that can hurt you.)

In AOW2 game though, the wimpiest unit on battle field can block you and use up your movement points when you fight. So the strongest attacker can be stopped by weakest units, can't play cavalry charge to cut through slower enemy.

If this was world war 2, and these dragons were tanks, and enemy is just rushing into field (so no anti-tank defenses prepped), it might be worth it to form a wedge with some tanks, plow through a portion of slower infantry enemy, and try and take out the longer range artillery/golems in back throwing rocks at you, etc.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:30 pm

effataigus wrote:
jimmiebjr wrote:It's official. I have no bloody idea what's happening in this story now.

What has you confused? It all makes sense for the most part when you listen to everyone here hyper-analyze everything.


For even more fun, try reading Romantically Apocalyptic - I very much doubt anyone who isn't the author has any idea what is going on now... :P
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Lamech » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:53 pm

multilis wrote:In games like this you either form a defensive line, and try to shuffle in your meat shields to help limit swarming of dragons, or you do what Parson called a "fighting retreat" in book 1. Dragons being ground units rather than flying in this battle drastically reduces their power, they can get swarmed by ground units, can't do hit and runs on enemy leadership/archers behind enemy front lines.

Yup, dwagons aren't heavy front line trade blows with the enemy type units. They are raiders who hit weak targets or guerrillas who hit and run. Basically do what Parson did, heck if you have a good lake to sit over, or two to threeish times* the enemies move you can basically raid them for free. When Jetstone decided to tank their capital, GK could have said "Whelp you got us, we're gonna go smack Jillians capital around."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Housellama » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:03 pm

effataigus wrote:
jimmiebjr wrote:It's official. I have no bloody idea what's happening in this story now.

What has you confused? It all makes sense for the most part when you listen to everyone here hyper-analyze everything.

Actually, my experience with non-forumites has been that it makes sense until you listen to everyone here hyper-analyze everything.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:49 pm

WaterMonkey314 wrote:For even more fun, try reading Romantically Apocalyptic - I very much doubt anyone who isn't the author has any idea what is going on now... :P

I understand RA fine. Clearly you are nothing but a stupid shoe for not understanding.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:32 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
WaterMonkey314 wrote:For even more fun, try reading Romantically Apocalyptic - I very much doubt anyone who isn't the author has any idea what is going on now... :P

I understand RA fine. Clearly you are nothing but a stupid shoe for not understanding.


BUT WHAT ABOUT MR KITTYHAWK?!

More on-topic - I agree with Housellama. I try to only skim the Reactions forum for that reason.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby sheepfly » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:34 am

Lamech wrote:When Jetstone decided to tank their capital, GK could have said "Whelp you got us, we're gonna go smack Jillians capital around."


This is why you put Parson in charge of strategy and not just tactics, instead of dumping CWL status on him after everything's gone to sh*t. And at least HE knows not to trust Wanda's overconfidence in her influence over Jillian.

Just to state the obvious.
What would YOU say if you'd won with strength and duty and honor every time when suddenly a veiled flying zero-upkeep 100% recycled army of former friends showed up to croak you with massive numbers and bonuses and skulls with little pink flowers?

Yeah..
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby shamelessmerc » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:35 am

Goshen wrote:
teratorn wrote:The problem with dwagons is that they are very vulnerable to attack from multiple opponents. They will be ok as ground units if you can provide other units to stack with them for protection, in particular knights or warlords. I'm not sure how many of those Sylvia has with her.


Interesting! You just described the classic mid-to-late 20th century tank.


I wouldn't really agree. ALL ground units are ultimately vulnerable to a sustained infantry zerg rush. A better analogy would be a ground attack aircraft like the A-10 Warthog being pressed into an infantry support role in an emergency. It still has an excellent infantry killing weapon, it can manuver at a fraction of it's normal speed and agility, but it has lost it's stand-off-attack advantages and half it's weapons.

Having said that, it would be better to think of ALL the infantry Heavies as basically tank equivelents - Plushies like Cloth Golems, Tchokies, Giant Spidews etc

I suspect Dwagons are far too expensive to normally waste in an infantry attack - better to use them for hit-and-run - but that they are roughly on a par with those Cloth Golems Ace is commanding when used as ground units
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby Smoker » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:55 am

shamelessmerc wrote:I suspect Dwagons are ... roughly on a par with those Cloth Golems Ace is commanding when used as ground units


This interests me greatly. I hope we get to see an even face-off between the two. The attack on the column way back in TBFGK wasn't a clear enough indicator, and that's the only time I can recall that we've seen the units come into contact.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 96

Postby shamelessmerc » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:30 am

Smoker wrote:
shamelessmerc wrote:I suspect Dwagons are ... roughly on a par with those Cloth Golems Ace is commanding when used as ground units


This interests me greatly. I hope we get to see an even face-off between the two. The attack on the column way back in TBFGK wasn't a clear enough indicator, and that's the only time I can recall that we've seen the units come into contact.


I was thinking more in terms of their resistance to, and killing ability, vis-a-vis regular infantry when I said that, but yeah, it would be pretty cool to see some hot Heavy-on-Heavy action. So far all we've ever seen is Heavies vs Infantry.

(BTW, am I using the right term? Tramennis calls them Heavies when he leads them to anhiliate Captain Ford's remmnant. It causes confusion with Heavy Infantry in my mind)
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