Book 2 – Page 105

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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby elecampane » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:22 pm

I'm sorry, but for me Jack's death is not believable not because it is anticlimatic, but because his actions are inconsistent with what we know.
As a foolamancer Jack must be able to understand how others (including dwagons) percieve surroundings. In Book 0 Jack showed that several times (and it was stated in some text update); just as Wanda's croakamancy senses, this understanding didn't seem to take the juice - making people see another things did.
Orders are supposed to carry the intent of the commander. Even had the dwagon been completely blind, certanly Jack intended it to make only so much dwagon steps, and breathe only so hard. If casters can understand from Slateley's "On mounts!" who exactly needed to mount, surely dwagon can understand when to stop. And didn't he order to breathe and then charge in? I know he didn't say "then", but otherwise it was a wery foolish plan, and Jack is usually quite cunning.
Jack's whole behavior is strange on this strip: why did he decide it was a good idea to drop heavy rocks on group of units that includes his chief warlord? He certanly had no way to be certain that Parson will not be hit by those rocks. Why was he so awkward directing the dwagon? He flew on them often enough.
So, if death is real and was unintended on his part, it seemes awfully forced to me: Jack just suddenly decided to do thing that was obviously foolish for several reasons, did it very incompetently and died for it. It's like a strange russian anecdote, really: "Bear walked through a forest, saw the car on fire. Got into it and burned to death".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby mmooneybsa » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:32 pm

Lamech wrote:
mmooneybsa wrote:
sweetidealism wrote:That seems like a really boring, anticlimactic way to kill off one of the coolest characters in the comic.


Ditto. Too anticlimatic for a main character was exactly my thought.
...
Also ditto. It's been done, and repetition is bad writing.

So the opposite of how Bogroll died? This is a war. People die. This was pretty different than Bogroll. Parson deliberately killed Bogroll, Bogrolls body was ripped to pieces preventing decryption, this was anti-climatic as all hell. I still think this is leading to the formation of a new side to save Parson's stupid ass. Which means Jack will be just fine. Maybe.


Not generalized, surface repetition of someone dies, someone dies, more people die.

I mean repetition as to specific plot events, and the effect on the protagonist, e.g.:
Misty dies so Parson feels that Erfworld is real.
Bogroll dies (for oh so many reasons that could be discussed at length for hours & hours, but) so Parson feels the harm of war, realizes his actions will have direct consequences to him, and so on. Which HAD to happen for Parson's character development.
Jack dies... why? I don't see a reason, i.e. an effect on the protagonist that has not previously existed in the story. Though there also isn't a need for Jack to remain in the comic. And he got the death of a bumbling idiot, no heroic action, inspirational last words, expression of insight... that main characters deserve.

Which all brings me to: either it's a trick, or he'll be decrypted and "shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Swodaems » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:33 pm

I found Jack's death puzzling. It didn't fit with my previous image of him. A character I thought of as smart and aware went out doing something extremely stupid. Not only did he get himself killed, in deciding to do the balcony drop, he risked crushing Parson, Antium, and all of the other units in melee with Slately's forces.

Morni wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:Jesus Parson is strong. Maybe Ace just isn't good at stitching.

Heavy units are suppose to be strong... i want to see Parson vs Cloth bear golem.

I'm hoping for a fight against the cloth golem bear as well. I can't give Parson any respect for ripping a cloth Raggedy Ann doll that childhood experience tells me weighs less than 10 pounds and is soft and squeezable. It wasn't even armed with anything besides its hands. The fact he tore it at the waist instead of the seams is slightly impressive, but that doll never seemed like a serious danger to him.

In fact, I can't respect Parson for a lot of the potential fights he is likely to face in the comic. Most Erfworlders are simply too small compared to him for that to happen. When I see them and Parson together, I can't stop making mental comparisons to an adult standing next to a small child. When Parson fights an Erfworlder, it looks like an adult fighting a small child. That causes me to discount any danger the Erfworlder poses to Parson. Every instinct I have tells me that children lose to adults when the adults fight seriously. (It doesn't matter if the Erfworlder in question is a simple infantryman, a caster, or a level 200 chief warlord geared to the max, part of me still expects Parson to when be sheer virtue of being bigger. It doesn't matter if the Erfworlder is armed while Parson is unarmed, the fight will always appear to be in Parson's favor.)

On the flip side of the size issue, Parson appears more sympathetic when he is mourning over or chastising an Erfworlder. It brings to mind images of a parent or teacher mourning or chastising their charge. However, that same sympathy has actually turned against Parson recently. When he repeatedly loses control of his children-sized commanders with harmful results or gets held up in the magic kingdom by people the size of children, he looks even more incompetent. The part of my mind (a part that belongs in a little monkey) that feels that adults should capable of keeping children safe and under control is telling me that Parson is weak and unworthy (and that I should eliminate him from from the leadership of my little monkey society).

Kreistor wrote:if he had enough to take a moderately defended Haggar city, he would have no problem with a post-inferno, poorly defended Level 1 city like Spacerock.
The key word is 'if'. All Charlie proved while talking to Sammy was that he had obtained information about what forces Haggar had available to defend their capital. That threat about Haggar fallling after the next sunrise could have been a bluff. (Or something that will happen with or without Charlie's interference. The way Charlie worded the threat allows for that interpretation.)

However, we do know for a fact that he has 2 or 3 archons left in the immediate area. The update where the threat was made mentions a force of 6, 3 of whom are now dead, with one of the remaining 3 captured. Given what we saw of their abilities in Book 1, that may be enough to deal with Parson, Antium, and the remaining dwagons. (Some help from Jillian would clinch it, but we don't know when Faq's current place in the turn order is when they aren't allied with the RCC2. )
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby drachefly » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:34 pm

QuothTheRaven wrote:That is, if casters can be overlords.


We have already seen not one but two caster overlords in book 0. Including Wanda herself.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby mmooneybsa » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:39 pm

elecampane wrote:Snip
&
erianaiel wrote:Snip

I agree on both statements.

QuothTheRaven wrote:Oh, also, I just noticed the reason Jack called his end "Irony, really." He was crushed by a statue of Sylvia. That goddamn Carnymancy spell is starting to chafe.


Sylvia was a Unaroyal unit, and would not have a statue in Spacerock (a Jetsone city).


*Edit: removing the failure of my brain to read, before it's commented on a 3rd time.*
Last edited by mmooneybsa on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby QuothTheRaven » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:48 pm

mmooneybsa wrote:Sylvia was a Unaroyal unit, and would not have a statue in Spacerock (a Jetsone city).


Spacerock was conquered from a different side. It could be possible that at some point in the city's history, it was owned by the side that held Sylvia's Ancestors. I know you're probably right, but yeah. Just saying.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby teratorn » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:49 pm

mmooneybsa wrote:
Beeskee wrote:Uncroaked casters simply function as infantry.


This has not been stated anywhere, they have not uncroaked a caster yet.


It was indeed stated, what we don't know is about decrypted casters.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby mmooneybsa » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:53 pm

QuothTheRaven wrote:
mmooneybsa wrote:Sylvia was a Unaroyal unit, and would not have a statue in Spacerock (a Jetsone city).


Spacerock was conquered from a different side. It could be possible that at some point in the city's history, it was owned by the side that held Sylvia's Ancestors. I know you're probably right, but yeah. Just saying.


I believe it was stated that all of the statues were Jetstone units, Slately named several of them as princes. See text updates.

Edit: found in Book 2 Text 33: "The King and Prince walked reverently beneath the gaze of the hall's statues: many heroes, a few disappointments, all Royals of Jetstone."
Last edited by mmooneybsa on Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby mmooneybsa » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:54 pm

teratorn wrote:
mmooneybsa wrote:
Beeskee wrote:Uncroaked casters simply function as infantry.


This has not been stated anywhere, they have not uncroaked a caster yet.


It was indeed stated, what we don't know is about decrypted casters.


Sorry, misread the statement. Or misbrained it... failed to function the brain did.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Beeskee » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:58 pm

mmooneybsa wrote:
Beeskee wrote:Uncroaked casters simply function as infantry.


This has not been stated anywhere, they have not uncroaked a caster yet.



We haven't seen them uncroak or decrypt a caster yet, but it was stated that uncroaked casters function as infantry here:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F077a.jpg


For decrypted casters, it's been stated that it's unknown if they can still cast:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-08.jpg


Edit: I didn't see your reply, oh well. This post is still a good reference for anyone else who wants to see which comics mention this.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby bladestorm » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:43 pm

This reminds me of the discussions of when Bogroll died. People were grasping at straws to force that beloved character back into the story. He had Regeneration, we didn't see the body, he's too important to the story, he could still be veiled/invisible, they didn't scatter the ashes correctly.... Sometimes characters just have to die. We fussed when Red croaked the first time (in Book 1), when Bogroll croaked, when we though Cubbins croaked, and now when it seems Jack had croaked. Accusations fly, writing ability gets criticized, epileptic trees grow into entire forests, and harsh statements are thrown around like it is part of our mourning process. Okay, so the harsh statements get thrown around after almost every update, but whatever. Onward to the actual update.

The next to last panel speaks volumes. In one hand Parson holds what is left of a doll that he broke on purpose, in his other hand, lies the body of a doll he didn't mean to break. Yea, I know he isn't actually holding Jack's body, but the rendering had to be done like that for a reason. Either that, or Xin was late due to the emotional angst of having to draw the death of the beloved Jack.

The Manglor reference is kinda funny though, since you were supposed to be able to rip those things apart and put them back together. I never could. But they were great for getting dirt and dust stuck to them. Smooshies, on the other hand, do actually go back together provided you don't end up ripping the velcro tabs off. That could mean the doll is gonna be a pain to dispatch, keeping the garrison from falling. I just hope the two halves don't start moving independently.

If Jack is out of the picture, does that mean GK could be popping a new caster? Not that it would do GK much good at this point. Ossomer turned back to Jetstone, Ansom was abducted by Faq, it has lost a LOT of its ground forces, a lot of its dwagons were in that strike force, it can't find more gobwins, all of its casters are in the MK, it's CWL is stuck in a distant city, and it lost several cities to Faq's raids. Things are not going well for GK. I can't help but think GK may not be around as a Side much longer. Its losses just keep coming.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Aquillion » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:16 pm

elecampane wrote:I'm sorry, but for me Jack's death is not believable not because it is anticlimatic, but because his actions are inconsistent with what we know.
Look at how uncertain he was giving those orders. Jack is smart, but he's smart at making overarching plans and at using his discipline intelligently; he has next to no actual experience in combat, so he's not used to how combat-time orders work and how they're obeyed. He's likely especially inexperienced at handling non-sentient mounts like Dwagons -- if he were talking to a human, they'd probably have understood what he meant and wouldn't have charged in that recklessly, blind in one eye or not.

There are reasons people don't usually bring casters into combat.

(And as I pointed out at the time, his death has been heavily foreshadowed -- he was very prominently positioned in that scene where Wanda predicted that Parson's strategy would succeed at great cost. The possibility of him dying and being decrypted has also been referenced twice, explicitly, so far in this chapter -- once when Wanda wanted to do it when he was wounded, and once for his initial plan when they were on the Dwagons, when Wanda would have caught and revived them when they died.)

I wouldn't be totally surprised if some way to get Wanda there or to get him to Wanda so he can be decrypted were worked out, though (partially because there's also been a lot of foreshadowing that suggests him being decrypted) -- one wild card is that we've been told that bodies vanish "if not moved", so it's possible that you can take multiple turns to move a corpse back to the capital, then decrypt it there, and as long as you move it each turn it won't depop. Of course, it might decay a bit (or not; we don't know how it work), but since Decryption seems to cure all injuries that might not be a problem as long as it doesn't totally disappear.

Assuming the capital survives, of course; I've been saying for a while that it's weirdly suspicious how every single plot-important character except Stanley has been carefully moved out of there, so I wouldn't be surprised to see someone like Charley launch a decapitation strike on it out of nowhere. (It was most obvious with Maggie, since there didn't seem to be any overarching reason for her to go to the Magic Kingdom.)

Anyway. If nothing else, consider that he's still alive back in Chapter 0, so we haven't totally seen the last of him.
Last edited by Aquillion on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Zeku » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:19 pm

On the one hand this is depressing and horrible, on the other hand, maybe we're finally going places with this comic. I'm just a little bit sick of the Jetstone battle, and some strong character development for Parson would be quite welcome.

He's pretty authentic as far as characters go, and I'll be surprised if he doesn't get incredibly pissed off by this.

Just imagine what a truly enraged god of war can do, in some little tinkertoy war world like Erf. I'm hoping for some real chaos here. A full Dark Side purge, with the intention of ending war forever...but perhaps not exactly succeeding.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby QuothTheRaven » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:36 pm

mmooneybsa wrote:Edit: found in Book 2 Text 33: "The King and Prince walked reverently beneath the gaze of the hall's statues: many heroes, a few disappointments, all Royals of Jetstone."


I bow to the more attentive reader. I guess I should go back and read through book 2 from the start again.

EDIT: It still looks strikingly similar to Sylvia.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Not Me » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:13 pm

Just posting a few thoughts I've had about this (many have been already mentioned one way or another).

* Jack's original idea was a good one - using the purple dwagon to open a bigger breach so all dwagons could get in and join the fight.

* Still don't understand why he "upgraded" that idea to "dropping the balcony" when GK units (including Parson) are also there. Maybe Jack knows something about Parson being immune to "balcony falling" but a heavy like the bear seems to have been hit pretty hard (if not croaked) so I don't think it's Parson's "heavy" status. Only thing that comes to mind is there might be some prediction we are not aware of that Jack knows.

* Jack is inexperienced as a commander so when giving commands to a half-blind dwagon there is a big chance the execution of the plan will not be as good as the idea in his mind. He probably doesn't know how to command the dwagon to do the "proper" amount of damage to open the breach or to just drop "a part" of the balcony. Or how much to "charge in" to be a good charge.

* I do believe Jack has croaked and there are no tricks there. Also think there is a big chance he will get decrypted. And I really like to see how a decrypted Jack interacts with both Wanda and Jillian, specially with how the Jack-Jill relationship is developing in Book 0.

* It will be interesting to see how Stanley reacts to "the little dot representing the Foolamancer" turning off in his head. I'm not 100% sure about this and am lazy to check now, but I believe that the update on Stanley taming dwagons was while the GK forces of Ansom and Wanda were away. If that is true, there are still dwagons and decrypted archons in GK (I think there was also an update where Parson mentions decrypted archons spoting Charlie's archons trying to get into GK territory and after being spotted, Charlie asking for authorization to get through that territory and Parson/Stanley not authorizing it). I would expect him to recall all casters home and let Parson solve this on his own before going through with the "relocating the capital to save Parson" plan.

* For Parson, Bogroll's loss seemed to get him further away from war/battle field. From a character development and narrative standpoint Jack's death will probably get him more involved than ever and take things even more personally that he has so far.

* Charlie's role in all these is an interesting thing. I can't see Charlie planning all the developments inside Spacerock's battle. I can't see him planning/anticipating Casters going to the MK in the middle of the battle, Sylvia doing everything she did the way she did it (even after knowing about the Sylvia-JoJo connection) or Jack doing what he just did. So I can't see him planning all these. Still I can see him knowing about all these almost as soon as it happens and adapting to everything to always be in a win-win situation. And right now, both GK and JS/RCC2 loosing that many forces is definitely a win-win situation for him. Still can't figure out if he wants Parson away from Stanley to get Parson or to get Stanley (as I mentioned before, I don't think Stanley is so unprotected right now). I would expect him to have planned something to do to Parson at dawn in his next turn and before GKs.

* That something might or might not have to do with the scroll JoJo gave Parson. I didn't mention it in the apprpriate thread (the one Judy uses the Arkenshoes to go back to Kansas), but if that scroll really does what they say it does, it kind of bugs me a little bit to think a scroll (I'll assume it was made by a trimancer link) can do the same thing an Arkentool does. I would expect Arkentools to be "more powerful" or at least "different" from trimancer links. That whatever you can do with an Arkentool cannot be replicated with a trimancer link. But maybe, the Arkentools are just the way of doing "certain trimancer links" in a safe way as many times as you want.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby teratorn » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:31 pm

Not Me wrote: I would expect Arkentools to be "more powerful" or at least "different" from trimancer links. That whatever you can do with an Arkentool cannot be replicated with a trimancer link. But maybe, the Arkentools are just the way of doing "certain trimancer links" in a safe way as many times as you want.


That is like saying casters should not be able to make lightning because the hammer does it, or send thinkagrams because the dish does it. We already knew casters could do something like that, that's how Parson came into Erfworld. The major property of the shoes is unlimited move that casters can't give, at least not permanently. Parson needs to go back to stupid world to fetch the shoes so all the arkentools are back in Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Guppy » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:35 pm

Jack fell down and broke his crown. Will Jill come tumbling after?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Kreistor » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:08 pm

Guppy wrote:Jack fell down and broke his crown. Will Jill come tumbling after?


Heh... the irony people are looking for is right there. Jack survived a fall from heights to be crushed by things falling on him.

And with all his power, Jack can't use Foolamancy to avoid being crushed by rock, even if he had the Juice. Another possible irony.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Octavian » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:41 pm

:(

RIP Jack, but Balder, say it idd'n so! Say it idd'n so!!!!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Lionsfire » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:16 pm

he better not be dead, he's the best character in the comic
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