Book 2 – Page 105

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re:

Postby teratorn » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:57 am

Free Radical wrote:I can think of a pretty good one - if the point wasn't to fool Parson particularly, but it was instead something he'd cast earlier. A conditional piece of foolamancy that would activate when the caster was incapacitated, to convince enemy units not to croak him.


Can't even imagine all the whining in forum if Rob tried to pull that one.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby bladestorm » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:17 am

As a minor experiment on my own, I re-imaged the comic without that last panel. That makes a HUGE difference.

Ending it with the image of Jack with X's for eyes is a total shock factor. We know he is croaked and are trying to either rationalize it, or find ways around it. There is a great deal of emotion crammed into a small amount of space. As the forum shows, there was an immense response to it. It was enough shock to cause a couple of lurkers to delurk and I think someone signed up just to respond to Jack's demise. The speculations reach very far into the future of the comic, whether it is the impact of Jack's permanent demise, Jack being decrypted an fully functional as a caster, or Jack being decrypted and unable to cast.

Having it end with Parson calling out to Jack and receiving no response, but we can see Jack's body laying on the rocks...very eerie. Instead of the impact of seeing the body for sure, there's the awkward silence of not knowing. Instead of "what's going to happen now?", it becomes a question of "Is he really croaked?" In the emotional void caused by the cliffhanger, my thoughts barely went past the next update looking for resolution.

Both pages had their merits as far as reader response. I just wonder if Rob went through a decision process of "Should I include it, or not?" Whatever the process was, this page shows how one single panel can make a huge difference. That can't be said for every panel, but that last panel is proving to e very powerful.

Hmmm... now to scour the predictamancy thread to see if there are any bets out there on Jack's death and/or decryption...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby effataigus » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:43 am

drachefly wrote:
Not Me wrote:* Still don't understand why he "upgraded" that idea to "dropping the balcony" when GK units (including Parson) are also there.

by accident, obviously
Don't think it was an accident. He brings up the possibility of dropping the balcony even before he goes inside. I might even believe that Jack was faking his own death (for the 2nd to 3rd time this turn) if it hadn't been for him expressing this intention when nobody was around to hear it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Tathar » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:51 am

I'll save you the trouble of scouring this thread for my prediction. I predict that Parson will win the battle, then he'll form a new side to reestablish the portal, and then Wanda will Decrypt Jack while Sizemore fixes up the fire damage. I can't and won't predict how they will manage to get over Parson not being in GK anymore, but somehow they'll get things fixed up. Jack retaining casting ability could still go either way, but the decrypted Archons provide evidence that he would still be a Caster. Decrypted Jack would force Jillian to rethink her position on the Decrypted in general, and depending on how things are spun, she could be encouraged to fight Charlie since he's partially responsible for Jack's croaking, and the Book 0 information on Charlie, Judy, and the Arkenshoes might come into play once Jillian meets Parson.

Also, my prediction that Parson will find new Royal allies to fight Charlie is still in play.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Tathar » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:54 am

effataigus wrote:
drachefly wrote:
Not Me wrote:* Still don't understand why he "upgraded" that idea to "dropping the balcony" when GK units (including Parson) are also there.

by accident, obviously
Don't think it was an accident. He brings up the possibility of dropping the balcony even before he goes inside. I might even believe that Jack was faking his own death (for the 2nd to 3rd time this turn) if it hadn't been for him expressing this intention when nobody was around to hear it.

I might have believed it if he gave the dwagon his eyesight like he did Jillian in Book 0. Not doing that indicates he wasn't lying about being out of Juice. He might get better, but he's definitely dead now.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby CaptC » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:02 am

If Parson forms his own side, Sizemore and Wanda work for a different side. Why would they have ANY desire to help a traitor to their side? Why would duty let them do so, even if they wanted to? Parson may very well form his own side, but it won't be to import Sizemore and Wanda's help. They won't be able to, or perhaps won't even WANT to.

Wanda might indeed turn to Parson's side. Changing sides is part of her personality, and she thinks fate binds her to Parson. Sizemore? Maggie? Not so much. Even if they dislike their current ruler, they strike me as duty bound personalities, unlikely to turn on a whim.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Aquillion » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:20 am

Tathar wrote:
erianaiel wrote:So I remain with the question, why did Rob decide to write this particular scene, which has been in process of being set up halfway into the current volume?


It's probably not permanent then. We've already got a means for Parson to "save" Jack, though the part about simply changing capitals wouldn't work since the Ruler has to be present to do that. Parson (or someone else) would have to form a new Side to open the portal so Wanda and Sizemore can get in and do their work.
Not quite true. Stanley is capable of changing the capital to Jetstone, which would allow Wanda to get there; he just wouldn't be able to move it back.

Whether he would do so (or whether he'll get the chance) is another story, but from a tactical standpoint, Jack aside, they need to restock their decrypted units.

(I still fail to understand why Jack went through the portal with Parson, given that he was out of Juice and doing so accomplished nothing but putting him in danger. That's one of the main reasons I kept saying that he was going to die -- moving him there with no juice made sense from a narrative standpoint to set up his death, but it's unclear why he would do it from an in-setting logic standpoint. Especially since, if he had some way to send someone through the portal, it would have made infinitely more sense to send Wanda instead. Possibly Jack never went through the portal in the first place -- that is, he never left Jetstone -- and just sent some sort of Foolamancy with Wanda? But I doubt he can cast it across zones like that.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Not Me » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:47 am

CaptC wrote:If Parson forms his own side, Sizemore and Wanda work for a different side. Why would they have ANY desire to help a traitor to their side? Why would duty let them do so, even if they wanted to? Parson may very well form his own side, but it won't be to import Sizemore and Wanda's help. They won't be able to, or perhaps won't even WANT to.

Wanda might indeed turn to Parson's side. Changing sides is part of her personality, and she thinks fate binds her to Parson. Sizemore? Maggie? Not so much. Even if they dislike their current ruler, they strike me as duty bound personalities, unlikely to turn on a whim.


The Duty issue would be solved by going there to help Jack, not to help Parson. And even if Parson starts a new side, Jack is still a GK unit. The same goes with the dwagons that are still left. And everything Wanda can decrypt after Sizemore controls the Inferno.

About turning, I can see Wanda doing it and maybe I could even see Maggie doing it as well, but I don't think there is any need for that. Just Parson starting a new side to open up a portal, Wanda and Sizemore going into Spacerock to solve all the mess going around and then Parson turning back to GK to get things as similar as they were before as possible. You can even get Maggie into Spacerock to link with Sizemore to better rebuild the city like they did with GK after the Volcano.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Tathar » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:54 am

CaptC wrote:If Parson forms his own side, Sizemore and Wanda work for a different side. Why would they have ANY desire to help a traitor to their side? Why would duty let them do so, even if they wanted to? Parson may very well form his own side, but it won't be to import Sizemore and Wanda's help. They won't be able to, or perhaps won't even WANT to.

Wanda might indeed turn to Parson's side. Changing sides is part of her personality, and she thinks fate binds her to Parson. Sizemore? Maggie? Not so much. Even if they dislike their current ruler, they strike me as duty bound personalities, unlikely to turn on a whim.

Wanda has more reason to follow Parson than follow Stanley. She follows Fate, and something like that would be Fated to occur. Having it be just another one of his Erfworld hacks would seal the deal. Plus, she has reason to save Jack too.

Sizemore has reason to follow Parson because he doesn't want to see his friends die, and because Janis and Marie basically told him to. Plus, he's somewhat in on the Predictamancer/Hippiemancer conspiracy, so he needs Parson alive. He'd do it just to save everyone from the blaze.

Maggie isn't needed at this moment, but she'd follow Parson because she's in on the GMTTA conspiracy and just got finished arguing the case for him to fight this battle in the first place. On top of that, she would be one of the first to recognize the necessity of Parson forming a new side, even if only temporarily, so the portal could be reestablished and so he wouldn't burn up in a fiery inferno. The case is strong for her to follow Parson.

The only concern is whether the non-Caster GK units already in the burning city would join in. If Wanda's around, she could convince them to at least not attack Parson, but Parson could make that case on his own on account of saving them all from the same fire that he'd be forming a new side to stop. This isn't like forming a new side out of treason, since it would help GK for Parson to save everyone from the fire.

Stanley might not like having basically his whole side "abandon" him, even if they rejoin GK, but there's quite a few possibilities for how to fix that. Then again, this is Stanley, the same guy who's getting tired of being overshadowed by Parson. He might not even care if Parson leaves, since it means he gets to be #1 again.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Tathar » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:56 am

Aquillion wrote:
Tathar wrote:
erianaiel wrote:So I remain with the question, why did Rob decide to write this particular scene, which has been in process of being set up halfway into the current volume?


It's probably not permanent then. We've already got a means for Parson to "save" Jack, though the part about simply changing capitals wouldn't work since the Ruler has to be present to do that. Parson (or someone else) would have to form a new Side to open the portal so Wanda and Sizemore can get in and do their work.
Not quite true. Stanley is capable of changing the capital to Jetstone, which would allow Wanda to get there; he just wouldn't be able to move it back.

Oh right, I forgot that the throne thing only applied to moving the capital out of a city. Either way, Parson needs control of the city first though.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Kaed » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:46 pm

zbeeblebrox wrote:Same reason a dwagon wouldn't take the 1-in-3 falling death chance for its rider: mounted riders' health in Erfworld is apparently calculated without consideration for their mount. It's an important detail to remember, because it means a covered mount (like, say, an airship or a jet) would be purely aesthetic.


This is yet another baseless assumption derived from incomplete information. We have never seen a covered mount yet, and in fact Rob himself has mentioned that a covered mount confers a defensive bonus in a metacomic discussion. (the example in question being a theoretical pumpkin carriage)
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby erianaiel » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:15 pm

Aquillion wrote:
Tathar wrote:
erianaiel wrote:So I remain with the question, why did Rob decide to write this particular scene, which has been in process of being set up halfway into the current volume?


It's probably not permanent then. We've already got a means for Parson to "save" Jack, though the part about simply changing capitals wouldn't work since the Ruler has to be present to do that. Parson (or someone else) would have to form a new Side to open the portal so Wanda and Sizemore can get in and do their work.


Not quite true. Stanley is capable of changing the capital to Jetstone, which would allow Wanda to get there; he just wouldn't be able to move it back.


Yes, but why would Stanley do something like that, to change a perfectly servicable and highly fortified capital to a burning ruin? Not to rescue a single caster whose name he can barely remember on his best days. And certainly not when it means that -he- has to travel to said burning ruin and back to move the capital back to where it belongs. As a ruler it is quite unlikely that he can travel to the magic kingdom (it was a huge surprise that Parson could after all). And where Parson had the prophecie providing him with plot armor, Stanley is pretty much universally loathed. I do not think any caster would hesitate a milisecond to start blasting, even if Stanley somehow does survive the trip through the portal.

Whether he would do so (or whether he'll get the chance) is another story, but from a tactical standpoint, Jack aside, they need to restock their decrypted units.


I am guessing at this point that if Parson manages to get what little troops he has remaining out of the city he will simply raze it to the ground. It provides his side with a few smuckers and prevents another side from rebuilding cheaply. He has plenty of dwagons to accompany him to make his stack a highly dangerous group to attack even for an opportunistic enemy side or roving band of barbarians. Charley will no doubt go hunting but he too has lost a lot of archons and money at gobwin knob and can not rebuild remotely as quickly as Stanley can (thanks to the hammer bypassing popping rules for one of the strongest units on erfworld and the pliers bypassing the upkeep rules and, assuming you win a battle first, the popping rules for decrypted as well. Which btw suggests that if Stanley was not such an idiot he probably could do some truly scary things with the hammer. There is a hint that they can transmogrify (the wallnut to orly and bat to walnut transforms ...))

(I still fail to understand why Jack went through the portal with Parson, given that he was out of Juice and doing so accomplished nothing but putting him in danger. That's one of the main reasons I kept saying that he was going to die -- moving him there with no juice made sense from a narrative standpoint to set up his death, but it's unclear why he would do it from an in-setting logic standpoint. Especially since, if he had some way to send someone through the portal, it would have made infinitely more sense to send Wanda instead. Possibly Jack never went through the portal in the first place -- that is, he never left Jetstone -- and just sent some sort of Foolamancy with Wanda? But I doubt he can cast it across zones like that.)


I am guessing that Jack never actually left and that his presence in the magic kingdom was an illusion. The joke he made at arrival (with the decapacitation) may well have been to draw away attention from his non-corporeal state.
Of course it is more likely that I missed a situation where Jack touched somebody, or somebody touched Jack, while he was in the Magic Kingdom.

Considering that his death as part of the story at this point comes across about as meaningful as hearing Maggie report 'Oh, and Jack tripped over his shoelace and died' at this moment the reason why he left the magic kingdom might well be 'because he needed to be in jetstone to die'
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Ambug666 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:02 pm

Are we posting predictions?

Parson, cut off, alone, without support, will find himself trapped in a city about to be destroyed by flames. He has only one way out: the scroll he got from JoJo. He reads it.

Book Two ends with Parson being in Charlie's custody. There may or may not be a reveal of what Charlie looks like at that time.

I so Predict it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby bladestorm » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:13 pm

Ambug666 wrote:Are we posting predictions?

Parson, cut off, alone, without support, will find himself trapped in a city about to be destroyed by flames. He has only one way out: the scroll he got from JoJo. He reads it.

Book Two ends with Parson being in Charlie's custody. There may or may not be a reveal of what Charlie looks like at that time.

I so Predict it.

There's an entire thread devoted to Amateur Predictamancy, where we bet Quatloo on our predictions. Your prediction is a total loss, since for Parson, there is never "only one thing left to do", "only one way out", or "his only option". The entire point of his lateral thinking is to provide other ways of doing things. The 'only options' he had when Wanda and company went in for Parley with Jetstone centered around an easy Jetstone victory, and how GK was going to be punished for their insolence. Now, Spacerock is nearly in complete ruin, the king is only technically still in existence until the start of next turn, Tramennis is on his way to the new capital, and all of Spacerock is considered a loss. Parson thrives on making his own options.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby effataigus » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:28 pm

Ambug666 wrote:Are we posting predictions?
Heck yeah! The amateur predictamancy thread is for betting on small concise clearly defined statements. This is definitely a safe place for epileptic twees.

On that note, I think I'll harp on a pet twee yet again...

For those speculating on why Stanley might be convinced to let X Y or Z go, recall that a dead Stanley doesn't have much of a choice in the matter.

I think Rob has set this up so that there are a nearly infinite number of awesome directions that the story could go. There has been a bit of a game of idiot-ball catch on the way from TBfGK to here, but I'm excited about the future.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:50 pm

At first Jack's actions in this strip didn't make much sense. But in rethinking about it, it does. He see's the purple and realizes that breaking a bigger hole in the wall to allow multiple dwagons to enter is better than just one dwagon. In frame 2 it is also clear that he can see through the existing hole, and see that the bear and Slately are close to the wall. Crashing the wall on them sounds like a good tactic in theory. Only he was a non warlord trying to command a blind dragon, and an accident happened.

But the plot does seem to have been a bit forced lately, with characters doing things that seem to make no sense. But I am sure that there was good reasons for it, it just wasn't shown on panel. The problem with a comic strip as opposed to a text update, is it is hard to tell what characters are thinking. Some things that have felt odd were:
1) Why Wanda (and Jack?) entered the magic kindom to begin with. (My guess is Wanda wanted to talk to Marie and ask her about any fate predictions. That would be completely in character for her. So she asked Jack to let her in, with a plan to get her back out. But then Ossomer turned, putting Wanda into some sort of shock. This made it possible for only Jack to leave.)
2) Why Parson didn't try to argue to let Wanda back through, or show any concern about it all. Ever since the magic kingdom holdup, he has seemed to be too relaxed, and not tactical enough about things. (He probably did, just off panel. But things still haven't felt quite right.)

The story outline is good, and I am sure the characters all have good reasons for doing what they are doing, just something about the presentation has seemed a bit off. A few text updates here and there could have help fill things in. Tommy suddenly dieing, and Goodminton suddenly being lost, could have felt forced in a pure comic format as well. Text updates definitely help us understand what is happening, and why characters do things.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Beeskee » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:15 pm

Regarding Parson founding a new side: Stanley will either be for or against it, and it will all depend on how it's spun to him.

If the folks involved are smart, they will remind him that the summoning spell binds Parson to him *forever* - and what could be more awesome than having the Perfect Warlord, acting as an independent ruler but still required to obey you, in a permanent alliance with GK, and placed in the appropriate position so that they will serve as a buffer zone between you and everyone who wants to kill you?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:25 pm

Jack's death could also inspire another side, with flying gwiffons to come to their aid.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby kiyote » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:30 pm

mmooneybsa wrote:
hyzhenhok wrote:I cannot really believe that Rob would blatant repeating the "make friends with a single Erfworlder, then they die" arc from Book 1. So I'm guessing there's more to this.


Also ditto. It's been done, and repetition is bad writing.


Repeating something twice is bad writing. Repeating it 3 times, or more, is a theme.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 105

Postby RTTT » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:50 pm

Alas, that it should take the death of Jack to get me to register...

We are gathered here today to mourn the death of our fallen friend, who at last has experienced the cure for curiosity. His wit and wisdom shall be sorely missed. Would that his final trick had been... more worthy of him. ::bows head::

(We can only hope he is Decrypted, that his decryption allows him to keep his unique perspective, and that he could still cast as well as Archons could afterward.)
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