Book 2 – Page 106

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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby pendell » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:59 am

Wait just a doggone minute.

Panel 2 . Is that only the second uncensored swear word we've had since the beginning of the comic? The first being the final panel of the battle of Gobwin Knob, when Parson threw the sword of ruthlessness into the volcano?

What does it mean when this happens? Given that the inability to swear is enforced by the world itself, is Parson himself actually breaking the very laws of the world? Can he, when he is angry enough, go completely outside the laws of physics and enter God Mode?

In that world, the inability to swear appears to be a natural force on par with electromagnetism or gravity. If Parson can break that rule when he's sufficiently mad, what ELSE can he do in this world when he's got his rage on?

If that's true ... then possibly he can stop this inferno from killing him through will power alone. Because the rule "you can't escape from an inferno" and the rule "you can't extinguish inferno" are rules of the world, no different from the rule against swearing. If Parson can learn to leverage this ability, then he can do whatever he wants to , rules or no rules.

No wonder Charlie is desperate to get rid of him.

Respectfully,

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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Smoker » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:45 am

Parson, why are you not crying? Jack, the best friend you've got in this world, is dead as hell.

I mean, I know the fire is kinda important, but I think a certain amount of head-cradling is in order here...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby drachefly » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:54 am

I think he momentarily got it out of his system by killing Clonely.

And I have no idea what people are talking about with Ace moving his arm. Looks steady to me.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby raphfrk » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:01 am

bladestorm wrote:I wonder if Parson could order Antium to turn to Jetstone and then reclaim the garrison.


Interestingly, he would still have loyalty to Wanda to get him to switch back again, if she could enter the hex.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:33 am

And Tremmenis is now king, and would know his father is truly gone. :cry:

You put up a good fight Slately, you put up a good fight.

And Parson is taking his predicament quite well.

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
joosy wrote:bah. I'm still not buying the reasoning on why Slately had to risk himself and other units to switch the capitols.

If the point was to trap Parson in Jetstone all Charlie had to have Slately do is to wait until Parson was in Jetstone and then retreat all units out of the garrison thus giving control to GK and closing the portal. The whole 'switching capitols' plan appears to just be there to demonstrate to us how a mechanic is used in game so that Parson can manipulate it to his advantage in the future.

If Jetstone lost control of Spacerock while Spacerock was still their capital, then all units in the outer walls or airspace would have been captured, all of Jetstone's other cities would have turned neutral, all Jetstone units in the field other than Trammenis's stack would have disbanded, and Jetstone would no longer have a treasury - only the purses in Trammenis's stack.


I'm a bit rusty on rules, where do we learn just loosing a capital is enough for all that to happen?

If the ruler dies without an heir we know all their cities "freeze" and units in the field disband. If a heir is in the field when they loose their cities/ruler they go barbarian, and any units not in their stack disband and treasury is limited to their own purse. If a garrison is captured all units for that side in that city are captured... but I don't think just losing the capital is enough to wipe armies in the field and turn all their cities neutral.

Ever since dwagon fall Jetstone had been playing as if there was a very good chance Spacerock, the capital, was going to be lost. Trem was planning on evacuating Slately and then either attacking the GK forces or retreating with all the Jetstone forces in Spacerock. But Trem wasn't heir and there was no talk of changing the capital before hand - if just loosing a capital turns all cities for that side "neutral" and disbands non-heirs/rulers then Trem and the entire army with him would have been doomed the moment they left and GK claimed the garrison, and he certainly wasn't acting like he was making a choice between losing an army to Wanda or losing an army to disbanding. Changing capitals only popped up fairly late in the game at Charlie's instigation.

Plus (might be wrong here) Faq lost its capital, but don't they still have more units then could possibly have been in King Banhammer's stack alone? (Jillian was safe as heir)

Swodaems wrote:
name lips wrote:At this moment, Trem has become Overlord.

I wonder if he will be willing to negotiate with Parson.

By "Control-z", Parson could mean that he wants to undo the taking of the Spacerock garrison by letting Jetstone recapture it. Parson, Antium, and the surviving GK units would become prisoners, and get move.

I see two ways for Parson to let Jetstone take the city. One is more awesome than the other.

1. Call Tremennis and negotiate. Parson moves all the GK troops out of the garrison. Trem sends in a token force to take the garrison before it completely turns to ash. Trem then escorts his new prisoners out of the hex.


Only problem with that is calling Trem that I can see. Parson, by rights, shouldn't even know that Jetstone didn't just cease to be with Slately's death yet. Maggie is stuck in the MK low on juice, Parson doesn't have a communication hat and Charlie is out. Unless Trem comes back for some reason it seems unlikely Parson could talk to him in time to save himself from the inferno.

Which is much the same reason I'm doubtful Stanley changing capitals is going to be the problem solver. Stanley should know they have gained Spacerock, but his communication network is in disarray so he shouldn't know he needs to do anything at the moment. Maggie is in the MK low on juice, Parson is in a burning Spacerock. For Slately to change capitals there he needs to be told that he has to, convinced if he is against the idea, and then actually do it (thus making the capital, for a turn at least, practically undefended - even if Wanda decrypts, because there isn't a lot to decrypt). Sizemore has to travel there... all that takes time, even with the weird time compression that goes on for different sides/zones.

Kreistor wrote:Archons:

The last we see of GK's archons is here:
http://www.erfworld.com/page/56/

And some are shown to have survived the onslaught. We see Clonely abandon the aerial battle immediately after this page, because he achieved his monetary goal. He left Airspace and ceased looking for Archons, so all of the Foolamancy protected Archons are still, presumably, alive. Not a lot will have survived, but we have no indication of 100% losses. And now that they have freedom of movement in the city, they can move to sections that aren't yet burning to buy time until the inferno can be quenched..


Well, we see six in the first panel. One is dusted in the first panel, another dusted in panel six. No indication of how many of them hid or where killed between those two panels. We know by the last panel exactly one archon is still alive and hiding for certain with potentially three others still out there (unless other Archons had already fled the battle and hid off screen).

I always read that as pretty definite that Slately and co had finished off the Archons. We have him saying saying the remainder are veiled (as we know, we got an update about one hiding). He is says he can spot them (which he seems to attribute to Ace's accessories), and that the others are to follow him because "I shall identify them" - which suggests he's spotted more than one. It looks pretty clear they are heading to attack one of them (text update archon), despite at that point having achieved his monetary goal.

Plus Sylvia states "yeah, I think they're all dusted, except the one they netted".

There is no certain indication of 100% losses, maybe there were one or two really good at hiding. But there is absolutely no indication Slately gave up the fight knowing there were still veiled archons before he was satisfied they had got them all, just because he'd achieved his monetary goal, because we can plainly see he is still going after them even when he has his prize and the last GK archons have fled and hid. Which, knowing he didn't leave the airspace without going after at least some of the veiled archons, really doesn't give much reason to think many (or any) survived, especially when Sylvia continues to watch him fight well after the netting has occurred and can conclude "I think they're all dusted".
Last edited by Dancing Cthulhu on Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Kreistor » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:35 am

ManaCaster wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Archons:

The last we see of GK's archons is here:
http://www.erfworld.com/page/56/

Some survive the initial onslaught, but no, not a single archon survives the battle (unless you count the captured one). All of Gobwin Knob's archons are gone. The Jetstone units break off briefly to heal, and Slately uses the thinking cap to see through the Archon's foolamancy. Later, Captain Archer confirms that all of the archons have been destroyed, save the one they captured: http://www.erfworld.com/page/48/


Foolamancy fools your own Side, not just the enemy. Jack has provided plenty of evidence of that. Archer states that he "thinks" they're all dusted, not that he "knows". He is just as fooled as the rest.

What we don't see is Foolamancied Archons being dusted. Rob made a big thing about some escaping by Foolamancy: it seems a waste of page space if that wasn't going to be important, eventually.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:49 am

Kreistor wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Archons:

The last we see of GK's archons is here:
http://www.erfworld.com/page/56/

Some survive the initial onslaught, but no, not a single archon survives the battle (unless you count the captured one). All of Gobwin Knob's archons are gone. The Jetstone units break off briefly to heal, and Slately uses the thinking cap to see through the Archon's foolamancy. Later, Captain Archer confirms that all of the archons have been destroyed, save the one they captured: http://www.erfworld.com/page/48/


Foolamancy fools your own Side, not just the enemy. Jack has provided plenty of evidence of that. Archer states that he "thinks" they're all dusted, not that he "knows". He is just as fooled as the rest.

What we don't see is Foolamancied Archons being dusted. Rob made a big thing about some escaping by Foolamancy: it seems a waste of page space if that wasn't going to be important, eventually.


We don't see it, since we don't need to see Slately popping archons pretending to be chimneys and roof shingles. That last panel looks pretty solid that Slately had spotted the Archon veiled as a chimney. Otherwise why have Slately saying he could spot them, ordering his men to follow and that he would point them out, and then flying right at a veiled archon if not to suggest Slately killed at least one veiled Archon? And then why have Slately keep saying he could spot them and was going to lead his men to them if not to suggest he actually could spot them and was actually going to lead his men to them?

I just chalk it up to character setting building. We've had updates before that serve to let us see inside character's heads and keep us abreast of what was going on without needing to spend a page of the comic on it. Did we "need" to know Wriggley died for example?
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:01 am

Kreistor wrote:CTRL-Z

Shift capital to Spacerock.

Sizemore undoes the inferno.
Sizemore undoes the damage to the city.
Wanda undoes the death of all the combatants.
City is now as good as it was before Book 2 page 1. Better, even, with Sizemore present for the re-popping of the city.

And, potentially, if they were smart enogh to keep a couple dwagons back... Stanley dwagon-chains to Spacerock, putting a second Arkentool into its defenses, thus undoing all of Charlie's efforts.

I didn't see it, but we can now be certain Ace is dead from the Purple's attack. City wouldn't have fallen if he were still in Garrison and alive.

I wonder how many Archons survived.


Better as a structure, though not better defended. At the start of book two it had Jillian and her forces, an approaching Haggar force, all its casters and a fairly large army with lots of warlords including Oss. Post theoretical reconstruction it would have Parson, Sizemore, Wanda, decrypted Jack and Ace (with unknown casting capabilities), Antium, an unknown number of dwagons and whatever dead Wanda could decrypt which, considering how little Jetstone actually lost, consists of the archers who died with the tower, the force that accompanied Slately and Artemis and whatever is left of her knights*.

*And that's assuming the explosion didn't damage the bodies to the point of making decryption impossible - we see when Wanda was decrypting the volcano victims they still seemed to be fairly whole. We see the explosion reduced some non-decrypted Jetstone forces to skeletons, and at least some of Artemis' knights were as dismembered and burned as Bogroll would have been (or outright eaten).
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Tathar » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:17 am

Smoker wrote:Parson, why are you not crying? Jack, the best friend you've got in this world, is dead as hell.

I mean, I know the fire is kinda important, but I think a certain amount of head-cradling is in order here...

Because he's got a plan to fix Jack up, of course.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby 0beron » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:20 am

jestyr7 wrote:What happens when you link a foolamancer (who can show you things) and a predictamancer (who can predict the future) via a thinkamancer?
If just Jack and Maggie could do 3d battle plans on an eyebook, showing the future(s) so you can find out the enemy's gambit seems on par with [other links we've seen].
Control-Z might be "Okay I've seen enough, let's do this for real this time".
Or is that 'too cheap' of a trick? Is there such a thing in Erfworld?

I LOVE this theory, it is cool and interesting. As a reader I'd be torn between blown away by how unpredictable it was (pun intended) but also depressed that the comic would get set back a huge amount.
However the more important thing to consider is when the "future" actually started. Because in order for this to happen, Marie would have had to come to GK city much earlier in the turn, or one of the Great Minds would have to facilitate the link while they're in plain view in the MK, since Maggie was out of juice. So unless we missed something off-screen, this doesn't seem likely.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby 0beron » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:22 am

OMG HOW DID WE MISS THIS?!
The Carnymancy scroll! Parson still has it, he's gonna try it to cheat and undo this!
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Kreistor » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:34 am

0beron wrote:OMG HOW DID WE MISS THIS?!
The Carnymancy scroll! Parson still has it, he's gonna try it to cheat and undo this!


1. He has no one to cast it. No casters are present.
2. It is not described as having power beyond sending Parson home, via one method (death) or another (cancelling the summoning spell).
3. Stanley in the background of the last panel is called "foreshadowing".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby 0beron » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:43 pm

Kreistor wrote:1. He has no one to cast [the Carnymancy scroll]. No casters are present.
Who's to say he isn't one himself?
Kreistor wrote:2. It is not described as having power beyond sending Parson home.
It's exact effect is still unknown, we only have Jojo's own word, and a comment from Issac, who may himself be assuming based on bias rather than actual magical knowledge. It's also important to note that Issac did say "may do x".
Kreistor wrote:3. Stanley in the background of the last panel is called "foreshadowing".
Metathinking and therefore I don't care, because there are ways that could be misinterpreted (or it could be a deliberate red herring)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Kreistor » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:06 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:We don't see it, since we don't need to see Slately popping archons pretending to be chimneys and roof shingles. That last panel looks pretty solid that Slately had spotted the Archon veiled as a chimney.


I don't deny that it is possible they are all dead. I just think that Foolamancy always has a chance of working, especially in the hands of experience.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby teratorn » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:20 pm

drachefly wrote:And I have no idea what people are talking about with Ace moving his arm. Looks steady to me.


Frame 1, Ace has one arm way to the side of his head. Frame 10, head is resting on both arms. He moved between those frames, though it's possible he died before Slately was croaked, but then why bother with showing the change? My take is that he is still alive.

Ace is visible, while Cubbins was unconscious but hidden, so maybe you don't need to claim as prisoner an incapacitated enemy that for all purposes is accounted for. The problem I see with it is that Brother Orwell in book 0 had to be claimed. Was he still conscious?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Salem » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:27 pm

0beron wrote:
Kreistor wrote:1. He has no one to cast [the Carnymancy scroll]. No casters are present.
Who's to say he isn't one himself?
Kreistor wrote:2. It is not described as having power beyond sending Parson home.
It's exact effect is still unknown, we only have Jojo's own word, and a comment from Issac, who may himself be assuming based on bias rather than actual magical knowledge. It's also important to note that Issac did say "may do x".
Kreistor wrote:3. Stanley in the background of the last panel is called "foreshadowing".
Metathinking and therefore I don't care, because there are ways that could be misinterpreted (or it could be a deliberate red herring)


I hate to not be on your side on this one but why would charlie give a god scroll to parson? It seemed like a win win scroll, death or he goes home. Even if Isaac is wrong I just don't see the function of the scroll being so only beneficial and not get rid of parsony unless the theory involves a crazy Joker/Charlie Gambit.

Also for everyone who seems to have missed this line.

Jillian: “Titans, are you serious?!” exclaimed Jillian. She drew Three-Edged from her back. “Yeah. We’re at war, Daddy. That’s my side of the business. We win it now. With one chop, we’re gonna take over the biggest side in the world.”

Conquering a side's capital and sole heir gives you all their cities. I don't know if it requires both or just the heir. Actually the emerald city isn't the capital is it? Killing the heir then does that? Which means for one thing GK knows that Jetstoneh as an heir. And since I don't remember if it is the capital that definetly proves that their forces in the field are still a threat even with it taken, as that is mentioned as a worry.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby teratorn » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:40 pm

Salem wrote:Conquering a side's capital and sole heir gives you all their cities.


Losing the city and the heir you lose the treasury. Without a treasury units on other cities should immediately disband, but I think you need to put at least a golem to claim control of a city production.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Sky Schemer » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:51 pm

0beron wrote:It's exact effect is still unknown, we only have Jojo's own word, and a comment from Issac, who may himself be assuming based on bias rather than actual magical knowledge. It's also important to note that Issac did say "may do x".


The root of it is that Parson does not know what the scroll does, and the best guesses are that it will either eliminate him (i.e., send him home) or destroy him. He certainly has no reason to believe that it will undo the turn, as you propose.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Whispri » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:10 pm

Kreistor wrote:3. Stanley in the background of the last panel is called "foreshadowing".

Gobwin Knob's livery is in the background of the last panel, I feel it is worth marking that distinction.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 106

Postby Salem » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:24 pm

teratorn wrote:
Salem wrote:Conquering a side's capital and sole heir gives you all their cities.


Losing the city and the heir you lose the treasury. Without a treasury units on other cities should immediately disband, but I think you need to put at least a golem to claim control of a city production.


I was just going by what Jillian said, "With one chop, we’re gonna take over the biggest side in the world.” It doesn't sound like she is implying that they'll destroy them but take over them. I really wasn't getting into what it taking over a city implies, what you need for different functions, as I have no clue what so ever. I just got the impression people thought the cities would go neutral, which I believe what Jillian says at least implies that isn't true.
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