Book 2 – Page 107

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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby joosy » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:50 am

and my prediction regarding how Parson gets out of this. I assume he uses the reds to protect the other units or fly them above the inferno (assuming that is possible - the volcano trap took out all units in the air space -not sure if that applies to an inferno) Parson will then use the scroll thus confirming that he is a multi-classed unit (fighter/wizard) which would explain why he can enter the Magic Kingdom.


Also .. I wonder if Judy had the same 'statless' feature that Parson exhibits. I know Jillian could see Olive's stats as far as type and level but no mention of being able to see Judy's. You would think that would be something to note - akin to us seeing someone without a head I guess. I suppose it could be disregarded as befuddlement by the flowers, though.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby multilis » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:45 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:Charlie could know the state of the fire (and the battle as a whole) simply from the bat.

The problem is that the thinkagram to Jojo to help Parson get to Spacerock happened after Sylvia talked about lighting up the garrison, but before the counterattack pushed her into actually doing it.

I think "Sylvia's" idea could have been a successful suggestion spell. Since the 'Dish can link remotely, it seems plausible that it can implant suggestions remotely.

It is Charlie's turn before GK/Parson gets a turn and move again. So Charlie may have other option(s) in reserve in case inferno didn't happen. Charlie has 600 archons total, not that hard to have a bunch beside either capital. Kill Parson and/or kill Stanley, and/or use goblin allies go go after stanley.

Closing the portal made sure that Parson's forces would be split up on Charlie's turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby j_scheibel » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:54 am

That makes no sense. Stanley even knew he was dead. This means that he definitely was. If Jack was not dead then Stanley would now even have the idea to say anything. Nothing would tell him that some other unit had died and should be presented as Jack. Essentially, after the Tool talking there is no doubt that Jack is dead because he would not have mentioned him if he were alive.


It makes no sense in the context of what we've been told, if you take everything at face value and think there is nothing else going on. But I'm expecting a twist or some details revealed. Something that will make the story less conventional. I don't think it's an elaborate dream sequence but I can certainly see how many things were done or said for Charlie's benefit. The longer it takes for said reveal the less likely it is that something interesting to explain jacks odd behavior will happen. So If we dont see something in the next 2 pages or so I'll probably give up hope that there will be a neat plan in place. It would be easy enough for jack to create a foolamancy copy of himself and send it off and when it dies tell maggie who tells tool it died. but why? I dunno. I look forward to the story if it goes that way.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby joosy » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:12 am

multilis wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:Charlie could know the state of the fire (and the battle as a whole) simply from the bat.

The problem is that the thinkagram to Jojo to help Parson get to Spacerock happened after Sylvia talked about lighting up the garrison, but before the counterattack pushed her into actually doing it.

I think "Sylvia's" idea could have been a successful suggestion spell. Since the 'Dish can link remotely, it seems plausible that it can implant suggestions remotely.

It is Charlie's turn before GK/Parson gets a turn and move again. So Charlie may have other option(s) in reserve in case inferno didn't happen. Charlie has 600 archons total, not that hard to have a bunch beside either capital. Kill Parson and/or kill Stanley, and/or use goblin allies go go after stanley.

Closing the portal made sure that Parson's forces would be split up on Charlie's turn.


Yes. HOWEVER - once GK took the garrison, the portal would have closed ANYWAY. There was no point in switching the capitols except to keep Parson from retreating before GK took control of the garrison.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby erianaiel » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:02 am

joosy wrote:Yes. HOWEVER - once GK took the garrison, the portal would have closed ANYWAY. There was no point in switching the capitols except to keep Parson from retreating before GK took control of the garrison.


Which makes it a rather important part of the plan. The city was already on fire and there is no point in setting an obvious trap if the trappee can just turn around and walk out.
With the portal gone Charlie presumed that even taking the garrison would not keep Parson from getting roasted. He did not have any move after all.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Beeskee » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:24 am

Charlie knew Parson was going to Spacerock, but he didn't know why. For all he knew, Parson was going there for the bonus, and would be standing by the portal the entire time ready to jump through if things went badly.

Though Parson did go in part for the bonus, he really went to personally lead his troops. If Charlie knew that, he might not have bothered with the portal thing. Or it was part of a larger scheme to control Parson's movements overall, as previous posts have mentioned.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby erianaiel » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:53 am

multilis wrote:It is Charlie's turn before GK/Parson gets a turn and move again. So Charlie may have other option(s) in reserve in case inferno didn't happen. Charlie has 600 archons total, not that hard to have a bunch beside either capital. Kill Parson and/or kill Stanley, and/or use goblin allies go go after stanley.


There may be some archons around Parson, but probably not yet around Gobwin Knob.
Even assuming that all decrypted Archons were at Spacerock and thus now lost to GK they were not before the battle. And Archons, if I remember correctly, can see through veils. There was no way for Charlie to hide his Archons from Parson's (it was even the reason why Charlie could tame so many Dwagons. He could use his Archons to not only look for Dwagons in a huge range of hexes, but also they could detected any veiled ambush, making it safe for Stanley to leave his city).
Personally I think that Parson would have warned against any plan that would require to risk all the advantages those Archons gave him. It is likely that some are left in Gobwin Knob as guard and lookouts.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Doctor Foreman » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:15 am

joosy wrote:Also .. I wonder if Judy had the same 'statless' feature that Parson exhibits. I know Jillian could see Olive's stats as far as type and level but no mention of being able to see Judy's. You would think that would be something to note - akin to us seeing someone without a head I guess. I suppose it could be disregarded as befuddlement by the flowers, though.


Depends on what stats. As Ruler, Stanley probably has access to more detailed information about units. We know that Parson does have level and unit type (2 and heavy field infantry, respectively), so perhaps the Tool was commenting on other stats he should have been able to see but couldn't, such as hit points.

Perhaps Stupidworld units display the stats any unit can see and no further - so someone who isn't their Ruler wouldn't be surprised at the amount of information they were getting, but a Ruler would expect to know more and be confused. Jillian isn't Judy's ruler at any point, remember.
"If you leave out important things or events that you know about, the story is strengthened. If you leave or skip something because you do not know it, the story will be worthless." - Hemingway
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Postby Free Radical » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:32 am

CarniDollMancer wrote:but the production of shmuckers will not matter if he has no shmuckers to start a city that requires shmuckers to start. My point was that it is is possible that starting a side requires money, and Parson has none.

You're quite correct that starting a new side requires a purse of shmuckers - it was the reason Jillian couldn't just restore her kingdom and be a queen when Stanley arrives. Note that the 1700 shmuckers is likely the price of the thinkagram she sent earlier rather than the price of starting a new side (from here, two-way is 2500 shmuckers, and the one-way thinkagram which she would later use was somewhat less), but clearly she doesn't have enough shmuckers to start a side.

cheeseaholic wrote:Try to rig up a way to get Parson airborne with multiple dwagons or coast over the fire once it's past the middle area?

If it's possible to do so, demoting Parson from heavy to ordinary unit would allow him to ride a dwagon.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby joosy » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:56 am

erianaiel wrote:
joosy wrote:Yes. HOWEVER - once GK took the garrison, the portal would have closed ANYWAY. There was no point in switching the capitols except to keep Parson from retreating before GK took control of the garrison.


Which makes it a rather important part of the plan. The city was already on fire and there is no point in setting an obvious trap if the trappee can just turn around and walk out.
With the portal gone Charlie presumed that even taking the garrison would not keep Parson from getting roasted. He did not have any move after all.

<facepalm> The point I was making is that the inferno could NOT have been part of Charlie's plan to begin with without some foreknowledge. Closing the portal after Parson arrives but BEFORE Gk can control the garrison makes no sense without the inferno or some other threat. The fire did not even start until AFTER Charlie had laid out the plan with not-Slately. Either Charlie has an army enough move to reach the garrison this turn AND enough strength to overwhelm GK's units OR Charlie knew about the inferno in advance which requires Predictamancy in Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby joosy » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:07 am

Doctor Foreman wrote:
joosy wrote:Also .. I wonder if Judy had the same 'statless' feature that Parson exhibits. I know Jillian could see Olive's stats as far as type and level but no mention of being able to see Judy's. You would think that would be something to note - akin to us seeing someone without a head I guess. I suppose it could be disregarded as befuddlement by the flowers, though.


Depends on what stats. As Ruler, Stanley probably has access to more detailed information about units. We know that Parson does have level and unit type (2 and heavy field infantry, respectively), so perhaps the Tool was commenting on other stats he should have been able to see but couldn't, such as hit points.

Perhaps Stupidworld units display the stats any unit can see and no further - so someone who isn't their Ruler wouldn't be surprised at the amount of information they were getting, but a Ruler would expect to know more and be confused. Jillian isn't Judy's ruler at any point, remember.


yes, BUT, Erfworlders can see other units' stats. The degree to which they can depends on if they are friend or foe. That has been established multiple times. It was established in the beginning that one of the things that is offputting about Parson is that Erfworlders cannot see his stats - period. They only know his level because of his bonus on others. They know he is considered a heavy unit because a dwagon cannot bear him as a rider, etc. etc. Just remember that none of this is 'real' and is just a story being told. I think it was just an oversight by the author not o consider Jillian's reaction to Judy not having any visible stats. Perhaps there will be some retconjuration or handwave it away by saying it was an effect of the Heroine buds OR maybe Judy developed stats by staying in Erfworld for so long.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby erianaiel » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:07 am

joosy wrote:
erianaiel wrote:
joosy wrote:Yes. HOWEVER - once GK took the garrison, the portal would have closed ANYWAY. There was no point in switching the capitols except to keep Parson from retreating before GK took control of the garrison.


Which makes it a rather important part of the plan. The city was already on fire and there is no point in setting an obvious trap if the trappee can just turn around and walk out.
With the portal gone Charlie presumed that even taking the garrison would not keep Parson from getting roasted. He did not have any move after all.


<facepalm> The point I was making is that the inferno could NOT have been part of Charlie's plan to begin with without some foreknowledge. Closing the portal after Parson arrives but BEFORE Gk can control the garrison makes no sense without the inferno or some other threat. The fire did not even start until AFTER Charlie had laid out the plan with not-Slately. Either Charlie has an army enough move to reach the garrison this turn AND enough strength to overwhelm GK's units OR Charlie knew about the inferno in advance which requires Predictamancy in Erfworld.


The fire was a bonus, and may have been the reason why Charlie suddenly told Jojo to let Parson through (a bit confused about the exact details of the timeline). But Parson is still trapped and without move in a ruined city and without much units to defend him. And Charlie at least has his turn before Gobwin Knob, so he can attack Parson before he can try to flee. And we already learned that Charlie is very good at forming and breaking alliances to get move advantages (and to get out of unfavourable alliances). So if anybody with a sizeable army still nearby would ally with Charlie for a turn they get to attack Parson before his turn starts.
Even barring all that he still has Parson trapped with only a tiny army and a long way from Gobwin Knob with no reinforcements coming in. If the impromptu roasting fails he still has good reason to make sure that Parson can not retreat to the magic kingdom.
I am guessing the trap was making sure Parson is isolated and far from home in an undefensible position. The inferno is merely the first attempt to kill him.
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Re:

Postby teratorn » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:10 am

Free Radical wrote:You're quite correct that starting a new side requires a purse of shmuckers - it was the reason Jillian couldn't just restore her kingdom and be a queen when Stanley arrives.


Not sure that it follows, Jillian needed not only to claim but also to rebuild the city. The issue here is that Parson would need to break from GK before claiming the city for himself. Without a purse he would immediately disband.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby joosy » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:28 am

erianaiel wrote:
joosy wrote:<facepalm> The point I was making is that the inferno could NOT have been part of Charlie's plan to begin with without some foreknowledge. Closing the portal after Parson arrives but BEFORE Gk can control the garrison makes no sense without the inferno or some other threat. The fire did not even start until AFTER Charlie had laid out the plan with not-Slately. Either Charlie has an army enough move to reach the garrison this turn AND enough strength to overwhelm GK's units OR Charlie knew about the inferno in advance which requires Predictamancy in Erfworld.


The fire was a bonus, and may have been the reason why Charlie suddenly told Jojo to let Parson through (a bit confused about the exact details of the timeline). But Parson is still trapped and without move in a ruined city and without much units to defend him. And Charlie at least has his turn before Gobwin Knob, so he can attack Parson before he can try to flee. And we already learned that Charlie is very good at forming and breaking alliances to get move advantages (and to get out of unfavourable alliances). So if anybody with a sizeable army still nearby would ally with Charlie for a turn they get to attack Parson before his turn starts.
Even barring all that he still has Parson trapped with only a tiny army and a long way from Gobwin Knob with no reinforcements coming in. If the impromptu roasting fails he still has good reason to make sure that Parson can not retreat to the magic kingdom.
I am guessing the trap was making sure Parson is isolated and far from home in an undefensible position. The inferno is merely the first attempt to kill him.


Parson would have trapped himself in Jetstone regardless. Having not-Slately change the capitol was redundant and pointless UNLESS Charlie intended for Parson to be faced with a threat that would drive him back to the Magic Kingdom but not be able to.

We did not see any manipulation or instruction from Charlie that resulted in the inferno. The inferno happened because of completely in-character decisions made by Sylvia (and not broadcast over thinkagram or by eyebook) and by a happy accident when the green dragon was gutted in the midst of a tight cluster of fire breathing dwagons. All events leading to the fire happened AFTER Charlie instructed not-Slately to change the capitol.

Again, my point is that Charlie's plan to change capitols in order to trap Parson makes NO sense unless there was some dire threat to Parson BEFORE GK could control the garrison. I have established that the inferno was created without Charlie's help or instruction (barring retconjuration) therefore Charlie either had some force with enough move and strength to reach the city and overwhelm Gk's forces OR Charlie had foreknowledge of the inferno which requires Predictamancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Aquillion » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:28 pm

joosy wrote:
erianaiel wrote:
joosy wrote:Yes. HOWEVER - once GK took the garrison, the portal would have closed ANYWAY. There was no point in switching the capitols except to keep Parson from retreating before GK took control of the garrison.


Which makes it a rather important part of the plan. The city was already on fire and there is no point in setting an obvious trap if the trappee can just turn around and walk out.
With the portal gone Charlie presumed that even taking the garrison would not keep Parson from getting roasted. He did not have any move after all.

<facepalm> The point I was making is that the inferno could NOT have been part of Charlie's plan to begin with without some foreknowledge. Closing the portal after Parson arrives but BEFORE Gk can control the garrison makes no sense without the inferno or some other threat. The fire did not even start until AFTER Charlie had laid out the plan with not-Slately. Either Charlie has an army enough move to reach the garrison this turn AND enough strength to overwhelm GK's units OR Charlie knew about the inferno in advance which requires Predictamancy in Erfworld.
Not necessarily. It was implied that Jojo did something to Sylvia; it could be that he simply shuffled her death by fire away for a bit, and could "return" it to her at any time, causing an inferno in the process. That would mean that her actions in lighting the blaze were dictated (or at least influenced) by his lingering magical control.
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Re:

Postby Aquillion » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:31 pm

Free Radical wrote:
CarniDollMancer wrote:but the production of shmuckers will not matter if he has no shmuckers to start a city that requires shmuckers to start. My point was that it is is possible that starting a side requires money, and Parson has none.

You're quite correct that starting a new side requires a purse of shmuckers - it was the reason Jillian couldn't just restore her kingdom and be a queen when Stanley arrives. Note that the 1700 shmuckers is likely the price of the thinkagram she sent earlier rather than the price of starting a new side (from here, two-way is 2500 shmuckers, and the one-way thinkagram which she would later use was somewhat less), but clearly she doesn't have enough shmuckers to start a side.
I don't think that was it. The money wasn't the reason she responded that way; she responded that way because she was disgusted at Ansom's suggestion -- she didn't want to be queen, she wanted to be free, and she was pissed at him for not having realized that (since her thinkagram should have made it obvious.) It's not that she couldn't afford to start a new side, it's that she didn't want to, and she thought he'd get that.

So when she says "1700 shmuckers", she's bemoaning the fact that she spent so much on a thinkagram that he didn't really understand.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby joosy » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:51 pm

Aquillion wrote:
joosy wrote:<facepalm> The point I was making is that the inferno could NOT have been part of Charlie's plan to begin with without some foreknowledge. Closing the portal after Parson arrives but BEFORE Gk can control the garrison makes no sense without the inferno or some other threat. The fire did not even start until AFTER Charlie had laid out the plan with not-Slately. Either Charlie has an army enough move to reach the garrison this turn AND enough strength to overwhelm GK's units OR Charlie knew about the inferno in advance which requires Predictamancy in Erfworld.
Not necessarily. It was implied that Jojo did something to Sylvia; it could be that he simply shuffled her death by fire away for a bit, and could "return" it to her at any time, causing an inferno in the process. That would mean that her actions in lighting the blaze were dictated (or at least influenced) by his lingering magical control.

or perhaps invisible mind controlling flying monkeys flew out of not-Slately's butt and caused the inferno as well.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby bladestorm » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:03 pm

There are other reasons why Charlie would want to close the portal himself rather than wait for Parson to take the garrison and the portal close anyway.

By slamming it shut after Parson went through, it ensured that Wanda and Sizemore are not able to enter the portal, and that there would be no trickery regarding what can actually pass through the portal (e.g. Wanda tosses the pliers through so the decrypted get the artifact and CWL bonus, knowing full well that Parson will inevitably win and return the pliers at the start of next turn. Or, Parson sticking his head through the portal, verbally issuing orders to his caster, and then getting back to the battle -- closing the portal forced him to communicate either via eyebook or thinkagram).

It also meant that Parson no longer had to option of going back into the magick kingdom before winning the garrison. With Clonely beaten down, Parson could have ordered Antium to execute the dupe after Parson was safely back in the MK. Possibly with some of the accessories that Ace had made. GK with two Tools, a perfect warlord and PEW toys? Closing that portal means that once Ace dies, his tech dies with him. (Minus any tech Tram took with him)

There is also the control factor. Charlie can let the door shut on its own, or Charlie can force the door shut and make sure it doesn't open again. Bet on one horse and shoot the other to make sure the one you want wins.

It's also entirely possible that resurrecting a unit the way Jojo did was entirely outside of what a normal carnymancer would be capable of. Jojo linked to Charlie, though, may have been able to pull it off. Sylvia could have been Charlie's unwitting mole that would allow him far greater control over situations. Instill in her a constant communication module that allow him to monitor and mildly control her thoughts, then set her lose into the RCC. When she got decrypted and still maintained that communique, Charlie could push her to do all sorts of things... like set the inferno.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby joosy » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:46 pm

bladestorm wrote:There are other reasons why Charlie would want to close the portal himself rather than wait for Parson to take the garrison and the portal close anyway.

By slamming it shut after Parson went through, it ensured that Wanda and Sizemore are not able to enter the portal, and that there would be no trickery regarding what can actually pass through the portal (e.g. Wanda tosses the pliers through so the decrypted get the artifact and CWL bonus, knowing full well that Parson will inevitably win and return the pliers at the start of next turn. Or, Parson sticking his head through the portal, verbally issuing orders to his caster, and then getting back to the battle -- closing the portal forced him to communicate either via eyebook or thinkagram).

It also meant that Parson no longer had to option of going back into the magick kingdom before winning the garrison. With Clonely beaten down, Parson could have ordered Antium to execute the dupe after Parson was safely back in the MK. Possibly with some of the accessories that Ace had made. GK with two Tools, a perfect warlord and PEW toys? Closing that portal means that once Ace dies, his tech dies with him. (Minus any tech Tram took with him)

There is also the control factor. Charlie can let the door shut on its own, or Charlie can force the door shut and make sure it doesn't open again. Bet on one horse and shoot the other to make sure the one you want wins.

It's also entirely possible that resurrecting a unit the way Jojo did was entirely outside of what a normal carnymancer would be capable of. Jojo linked to Charlie, though, may have been able to pull it off. Sylvia could have been Charlie's unwitting mole that would allow him far greater control over situations. Instill in her a constant communication module that allow him to monitor and mildly control her thoughts, then set her lose into the RCC. When she got decrypted and still maintained that communique, Charlie could push her to do all sorts of things... like set the inferno.


Yay finally some real reason as to why other than the jo jo/sylvia nonsense.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 107

Postby Unclever title » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:26 pm

ysath wrote:Parson will use the scroll to get out of this situation.

But he will use it on the inferno itself!


I like the thinking here, this has one of two outcomes.

The inferno gets transported to Parson's Stupidworld Apartment (if not the building/city/town/etc.) and quite possibly kills some people.
Or the inferno gets transported to Gobwin Knob. At that point Stanley would be forced to call back Sizemore from the magic Kingdom to put it out.

So if the scroll was supposed to teleport Parson to Gobwin Knob... then it's not necessarily a terrible plan.
It would enrage Stanley no doubt, but hey what doesn't?
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